TAD Compression Drivers - Opinions on TD-4001 vs. 4003?

[Mondie]

Hi all,

l have just joined this forum today after lurking for a few weeks. l hate to think how much of my life has been spent reading through the wealth of information in old threads :o:

l am putting together a TAD MTM system using some professionally made cabinets and would like some opinions on TAD compression drivers. Originally l was intending using TAD 4001's and wood horn clones as these are what l have first hand experience with. However l have stumbled onto some 4003 drivers and Resin horn clones, these will cost me about 40% more to buy including shipping.

Having never heard the 4003 l was wanting to hear from others on whether the extra cost is worth it? l have read that the 4003 is better in the top end but is it a significant difference, or only slight? l am worried that the Audiophile in me will always be saying "love the sound but you should have gone the 4003" :D

Cheers,
mondie

[Oldmics]

I vote 4001-:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Oldmics

[Mr. Widget]

l have read that the 4003 is better in the top end but is it a significant difference, or only slight?The top end is not where the magic is happening. In my opinion neither of these drivers really works without a tweeter. I realize that TAD used both of them in large two-way monitors, but I disagree with their approach. While they work very well in that application, I find the air and delicate shimmer achieved once a tweeter is properly integrated is well worth the extra expense.

I have listened extensively to both drivers and while they share the trait of delivering spectacular detail resolution and a very neutral, low distortion sound, in these instances the 4003 is decidedly superior. Is it worth the extra expense? For me, I felt it was, but it may not be the case for everyone.


Widget

[matsj]

Is it Th-4003 or 4001 wood clones ?

mats

[Mondie]

The 4001 driver would be run with a C.A.R. Maple clone, the 4003 with a resin clone.

Widget, l have been wondering about a supertweeter. Could be tricky to integrate one into the box but l have been considering this. The cost difference between 4001 and 4003 would cover the cost of some ET-703's

Thanks for the replys, keep the opinions coming :D

Cheers,
mondie

[Oldmics]

I agree with the Widget in regards to either driver should utilise a super tweeter as long as the drivers are running naturally (non-enhanced) within their energy centers.

The ET 703 is the finest sounding hi freq device that I have ever had the pleasure to listen to.

Now lets start to split hairs. :p

Comparison of the 4001 to the 4003 is not an apples to apples contest.

4001 alnico 1 15/16 outlet orifice compared to the 4003 neo material with an 1 1/2 outlet brings a few tricks to the table.

The smaller 4003 outlet has less distortion at higher SPL levels compared to the 4001.

For a smaller home application I still feel that the 4001 is a better sounding driver-just my preference.

If you were going to use some digital trickery to enhance the hi freq (Lake,XTA,DEQX) you could probably stay two way and use the processer power to jam the hi freq thru the roof using a 4003.

If that were the case then I would use the 4003 since now the eqed spl levels will be enhanced and distortion now comes into play.

So to recap-moderate listening levels,I say 3 way-4001 and ET 703

Loud levels,4003 and digital speaker processer tricks.

Oldmics

[Guido]

However l have stumbled onto some 4003 drivers and Resin horn clones, these will cost me about 40% more to buy including shipping.

Welcome Mondie

Is it a secret where these horn clones come from?
I ask because many members would also be interested in such horns.

[Mondie]

Oldmics,

Thanks for the hair splitting, l appreciate your opinion. Since my primary source is vinyl l would much prefer to go analogue active. l am leaning towards a Marchand XM44 to get going and then once l have determined my xover slopes/point play around with passive on the 4001's. Adding 703's could be done passively to l guess. My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.

l like your logic and the 4001/703 might be a good way to go, thanks for posting your experiences. TAD system are very rare in Australia, l only know of two other users athough l am sure there are a few more, but either way we dont have much experience here to go round.

cheers,
mondie

[soundmanshorty]

The top end is not where the magic is happening. In my opinion neither of these drivers really works without a tweeter. I realize that TAD used both of them in large two-way monitors, but I disagree with their approach. While they work very well in that application, I find the air and delicate shimmer achieved once a tweeter is properly integrated is well worth the extra expense.

I have listened extensively to both drivers and while they share the trait of delivering spectacular detail resolution and a very neutral, low distortion sound, in these instances the 4003 is decidedly superior. Is it worth the extra expense? For me, I felt it was, but it may not be the case for everyone.


Widget

I am using the 4002 on TAD horns without the 2 inch adapter, so i am using it as a 1 1/2 in exit horn & i still went with the ET 703s because i wanted that extra air and extension. There is no tweeter like the 703 if you can get a pair get them.

The top end is nice on the the 4002 but i agree you need a tweeter. I dont use any eq except for a Thrive Audio 5 band program eq, for when i have to eq a song on the fly that is a poor sounding digital mix that i get at times, other then that i leave it flat with real music , like classical, jazz, or big band when i listen to this which is most of the time now since i built this system.

If you have a good box design and any of these fine drivers, 01, 02 or 03, or any TAD products in your system for that matter, you should not need these over hyped dont deliver as promised digital processors that never sound rt, Expecially in a home hifi system. So forget about that, a fine Analog processor will work amazing, so you wont have to over process your home hifi system and it will sound natural.

In my home system i have a nice xover with some tube processing to warm up the source on cd, I dont have a room eq, so i have minimal processing and it sounds amazing.

Another thought and way for you to go ,

I think if you go the 01 & the et 703s you will gain greater results the just going with the 4003s, I have never heard the 03 but i would imagine them to be amazimng, i actually prefer the 4002 over the 01 with todays music and the way it is produced and mastered



www.systemsbyshorty.com

www.myspace.com/soundmanshorty
Check out the pix section to see some projects i am working on and have done in the past

[soundmanshorty]

Oldmics,

Thanks for the hair splitting, l appreciate your opinion. Since my primary source is vinyl l would much prefer to go analogue active. l am leaning towards a Marchand XM44 to get going and then once l have determined my xover slopes/point play around with passive on the 4001's. Adding 703's could be done passively to l guess. My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.

l like your logic and the 4001/703 might be a good way to go, thanks for posting your experiences. TAD system are very rare in Australia, l only know of two other users athough l am sure there are a few more, but either way we dont have much experience here to go round.

cheers,
mondie

I use the XM 44 and love it, I have been using them in clubs and they work incredible and they are very easy to mod for your taste ,,,,

[pos]

My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.
Hi Mondie,
I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-08.htm
(August 12)

According to JBL's Greg Timbers: "The comb filter effect is normal and cannot be eliminated, even with the use of electronic delay. The wavelength at 10k is an inch or less and even if the 045be were delayed to the z plane of the 435Be, even the slightest movement up, down, left or right of the measurement position would change the relative path length between the 435Be and 045Be to where the interference pattern would return.

What I have done is use a 4th order on the 045Be high pass and adjusted the values using substantial smoothing on the frequency response curve. The polarity does seem to matter in getting the smoothest "smoothed" curve.

I originally had the 045Be coming in where the main 435Be cuts off (15k) which cost less parts, but we could hear the 045Be as a separate location and it was distracting. I found that 8k - 10k minimized this effect. In spite of the curve, we have had no negative comments about the 045Be and the choppy response through the crossover range."

So even time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Digital FIR could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.

[pos]

My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.
Hi Mondie,
I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-08.htm
(August 12)

According to JBL's Greg Timbers: "The comb filter effect is normal and cannot be eliminated, even with the use of electronic delay. The wavelength at 10k is an inch or less and even if the 045be were delayed to the z plane of the 435Be, even the slightest movement up, down, left or right of the measurement position would change the relative path length between the 435Be and 045Be to where the interference pattern would return.

What I have done is use a 4th order on the 045Be high pass and adjusted the values using substantial smoothing on the frequency response curve. The polarity does seem to matter in getting the smoothest "smoothed" curve.

I originally had the 045Be coming in where the main 435Be cuts off (15k) which cost less parts, but we could hear the 045Be as a separate location and it was distracting. I found that 8k - 10k minimized this effect. In spite of the curve, we have had no negative comments about the 045Be and the choppy response through the crossover range." So even when time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Maybe a digital FIR crossover could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Mondi,

I have seen your project on another forums. There are more Tad driver in use down here than first thought but more so in professional installations.

Perhaps one way of approaching this is to find out how the horns in your system perform on paper with a particular driver if that data is available like response curves and waterfall decay graphs...ask the box builder.

I mean impressions are just that without some real data to support what may or may not be heard.

If you are unhappy with your current drivers then please by all means let me know as I am local.

Ian

[Mondie]

Welcome Mondie

Is it a secret where these horn clones come from?
I ask because many members would also be interested in such horns.

Guido,

Thanks for the welcoming words. l have sent you a PM regarding the horns.



I think if you go the 01 & the et 703s you will gain greater results the just going with the 4003s, I have never heard the 03 but i would imagine them to be amazimng, i actually prefer the 4002 over the 01 with todays music and the way it is produced and mastered

www.systemsbyshorty.com (http://www.systemsbyshorty.com/)

www.myspace.com/soundmanshorty (http://www.myspace.com/soundmanshorty)
Check out the pix section to see some projects i am working on and have done in the past

Shorty,

l suspect you are correct, the 4001 with ET703 is perhaps the best way to spend the $$, the cost of this combo is about the same as 4003 Drivers & horns alone.


I use the XM 44 and love it, I have been using them in clubs and they work incredible and they are very easy to mod for your taste ,,,,

Great feedback, l am close to placing my order for the XM44. l am still holding out for that Pass Labs XVR-1 to fall off the back of a truck, but l don't think its going to happen :p


Hi Mondie,
I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-08.htm (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/../html/projectmay/blog/2004-08.htm)
(August 12)

So even time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Digital FIR could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.[/size][/font][/font]

Thanks for the link, its an interesting problem and one which l have no real first hand experience of. l have attached a couple of pics of the MTM cabinets at the bottom of my post. Its not an ideal setup for adding a 703, if l mount it into the baffle then the 703's acoustic centre will actually be the closest of all the drivers, not ideal at all. The link implies there is not much that can be done because of the tiny wavelengths but l wonder if some basic TA is needed to at least get close to acceptable integration.


Hi Mondi,

I have seen your project on another forums. There are more Tad driver in use down here than first thought but more so in professional installations.

Perhaps one way of approaching this is to find out how the horns in your system perform on paper with a particular driver if that data is available like response curves and waterfall decay graphs...ask the box builder.

I mean impressions are just that without some real data to support what may or may not be heard.

If you are unhappy with your current drivers then please by all means let me know as I am local.

Ian

Hi ian,

Great to see a fellow Aussie and TAD user. Whereabouts in Oz is "The Tardis"? TAD is certainly rare in Australia, l dont believe Pioneer even support it here.

It will be a good 6 weeks before l have the cabinets landed in Australia and all the drivers imported. Woofers will be 1601a's, and either the 4001 or 4003 with clones of the matching TAD horn. Hopefully the horn response will be as TAD intended but time will tell. Thanks for the offer of help - l cannot wait to get the system together and running. l recently heard a pair of TAD based speakers being made by Parmenter Audio in NZ that opened by eyes to TAD and horns, this could be just the beginning of a long ride :o:

Cheers,
mondie

[Mondie]

Some may recognise the cabinets l have bought for this project, they were the subject of an old thread on the Asylum a few years back. l have bought the bare cabinets, originally they were built with 1601a and 4003 as shown.

Would an ET-703 sunk into the baffle offset to the side above the horn have any chance of working at all? If not l dont see too many other options.

Cheers,
Mondie

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/aaaaaa.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/Picture074.jpg

[pos]

Have a look at Widget's implementation:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208320&postcount=8

He didn't even try to verticaly align the tweeter with the horn.
You know that you will have comb filtering in the overlaped range anyway, so it does not make much difference where you put that tweeter as long as it is near the ear level.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I dont use Tads as yet but I have heard them on several ocassions.:)

I may look at Tad in the near future.

Why dont you try it as it is and see how it goes?


Ian

[Mondie]

Have a look at Widget's implementation:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208320&postcount=8

He didn't even try to verticaly align the tweeter with the horn.
You know that you will have comb filtering in the overlaped range anyway, so it does not make much difference where you put that tweeter as long as it is near the ear level.

Nice speakers :) l see what you mean, the 703 is simply routed into the baffle just as l would need to do. If comb filtering effects are a given, can much be done to control these or is that the trade off for the extension the 703 brings?


I dont use Tads as yet but I have heard them on several ocassions.:)

I may look at Tad in the near future.

Why dont you try it as it is and see how it goes?


Ian

Ian, the second pic is the boxes as l am buying them, sans drivers. Straight to TAD for me mate :)

Cheers,
Mondie

[Mr. Widget]

Have a look at Widget's implementation:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208320&postcount=8

He didn't even try to verticaly align the tweeter with the horn.
You know that you will have comb filtering in the overlaped range anyway, so it does not make much difference where you put that tweeter as long as it is near the ear level.I'll be the first to admit this driver layout is far from textbook perfect and absolutely causes measurable issues. That said, through extensive listening tests this set of compromises was chosen over the others. This isn't the place to have a lengthy exploration and discussion about time and phase delay, comb filtering etc., but I will say that the addition of the tweeter with all of it's obvious drawbacks, was perceived as an improvement by myself and the group of select listeners who were there for the comparisons.


Widget

[Mondie]

Thanks Widget.

l will have little choice but to mount a 703 as you have done in your designs, too bad l have to drill holes in the baffle to try it out :(

Back to the original purpose of the thread before l took it off topic - does anybody else have first hand experience of 4001 vs. 4003, and which would you choose and why?

Cheers,
Mondie

[Joe Alesi]

Hi all,

l have just joined this forum today after lurking for a few weeks. l hate to think how much of my life has been spent reading through the wealth of information in old threads :o:

l am putting together a TAD MTM system using some professionally made cabinets and would like some opinions on TAD compression drivers. Originally l was intending using TAD 4001's and wood horn clones as these are what l have first hand experience with. However l have stumbled onto some 4003 drivers and Resin horn clones, these will cost me about 40% more to buy including shipping.


Hello Mondie,

Nice to see you on the forum. Careful you don't catch the JBl bug:D here. I cant say definetly not having heard the 4003, but the 4001 does sound good and is well engineered.

See you on the other forum,

Best
JA

[Mondie]

G'day JA,

Yeah mate l get around :D

l have decided on the 4001 with ET-703, now just patiently waiting for the drivers to wing their way to Australia. l am hoping to have some TAD goodness up and running in 3-4 weeks.

Cheers,
Mondie

[speakerdave]

. . . . l will have little choice but to mount a 703 as you have done in your designs, too bad l have to drill holes in the baffle to try it out . . . .

Yeah--I would park it on top of the upper horn lip first to see if that would work well enough. I'd hate to hack those cabinets.

David

[Mondie]

Hi David,

Yes l will have to do some careful experimenting before l get the hole saw out. l may even be able to make some stout brackets ourt of metal and mount them behind from behind onto the front baffle as a temporary solution.

Cheres,
Simon

[scott fitlin]

Thanks Widget.

l will have little choice but to mount a 703 as you have done in your designs, too bad l have to drill holes in the baffle to try it out :(

Back to the original purpose of the thread before l took it off topic - does anybody else have first hand experience of 4001 vs. 4003, and which would you choose and why?

Cheers,
MondieET-703 is an OUTSTANDING tweeter.

4001 is a 2in exit driver, Alnico magnet, outstanding and 2in is better at low midrange, while 4003 is 1.5in exit, Neodymium magnet, and newer diaphragm design and better HF response according to TAD.

I like 2in drivers on suitable horn, especially since you will be using a tweeter for VHF.

But, it also depends on your taste as well. Have you heard the 4003? They do as TAD claims and are lightweight. But, sonically, 4001 and 4003 sound different. Listening is the only way to know for sure.

[Mondie]

HI guys,

Its been a while since l started this thread and l thought it was appropriate to post up a brief summary of the build process and final configuration. Thanks for all the advice, the end result with these speakers has been worth it :D

After toying with the idea of going active, l chickened out and went with TAD TN-1 Clones. These were originally designed by TAD for their Studio Monitors running 2 x 1601a & 4001. l figured l could always upgrade the components for better SQ and learn from the crossovers what filtering TAD themselves employed for future active exploits. Great in theory until l opened up the boxes and found all the capacitors epoxyed into those black boxes. :blink:
TN-1 crossover frequency: 650Hz. Maximum input power: 600W. Impedance: 4 ohms. Level control: Built in: fixed at -6dB
External: continuously variable. Rated loss: LF:0.6dB. Attenuation response: LF: -36dB/oct. HF: -12dB/oct.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1295Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1296Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1297Custom.jpg

The drivers all made it safely and well before the cabinets. The 4001's are monsters, the pics still don't convey the size of them, they feel like a very substantial piece of engineering.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1249Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1265Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/DSCN0639Large.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/DSCN0640Large.jpg

[Mondie]

l was fortunate enough to find a used pair of C.A.R Maple TN-4001 clones from NZ, that saved some pain on shipping costs

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1237Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1236Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1425Custom.jpg

Mate who helped me tackle this bit of DIY having a laugh

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1322Custom.jpg

And finally, the cabinets made their way safely from the US, well packaged and undamaged

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/P1100150.jpg

The cabinets were originally cnofigured for 4003 horns which are dimensionally slightly different, enough to need to get the chisel out

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1408Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1417Custom.jpg

A job well done

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1422Custom.jpg

[Mondie]

All done and setup in the office for a first listen

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1435Custom.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1438Custom.jpg

Time to take them home, dunno what the neighbours must have thought :p

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1445Custom.jpg

Yep, they're big

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1446Custom.jpg

The finished product. At the moment we are renting and the TAD's are in a small room, only 4 x 5m, but still they sound great. not as open as they did in the larger office space, but better than you would ever expect in such a small space.

Cheers,
Mondie

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/TAD%20MTM/IMG_1734Custom.jpg

[Guido]

Thank you Mondie for the pics and report about this excellent project.


l figured l could always upgrade the components for better SQ and learn from the crossovers what filtering TAD themselves employed for future active exploits. Great in theory until l opened up the boxes and found all the capacitors epoxyed into those black boxes. :blink:

Ask a local person skilled in crossover design to inspect your crossovers. It seems that all components are wired to the outside of the epoxy so they are measurable with a LCR Meter.

[Guido]

l was fortunate enough to find a used pair of C.A.R Maple TN-4001 clones from NZ, that saved some pain on shipping costs

Do you have a contact adress of this company?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Simon,

Thanks for those nice pics.

My suggestion before looking at another crossover system would be to borrow a top flight high current amp of at least 200 watts a side and see how it does.

Something like an ME or a butch Musical Fidelity.

The Tad twin system is a notoriously a difficult load to drive.

You might be surprised just how good they sound.

The next step would be to look at a proper MTM crossover network as there could be a degree of vertical polar lobing with those crossovers that are designed for both woofers together under the horn.

I have had discussions with other Tad horn users and the notch filtering is not that difficult to arrange if you have suitable test equipment. But it is very system dependant with location of the horn and other components on the baffle.

If I were you I would contact Krix or VAF Research in SA and see of you can come to some arrangement as it really needs to be done on site to make a proper job of it. (Or you could deliver a cabinet to their facility). Its not worth screwing around with frankly.

Once you have the proper data someone like Greg Ball on the east coast(ex Mark Levinson) can look at the suitable active crossover.

[pos]

These horns are really nice looking!

So are you going to integrate the 703 ?

[Mr. Widget]

[/SIZE][/FONT]

Do you have a contact adress of this company?I assume you mean the maker of the TAD TH-4001 clones?

http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/page8.html


Widget

[richluvsound]

Guy's , does anyone have the drawings for a 4001 horn ? Please PM me .

Rich

[Charles0322]

Great pics, great thread and definitely great sounding :applaud:

Congrats on this worthy pro system :)

[Mondie]

Thanks for all the kind words, it has been a very worthwhile project. l must admit at times l was a bit nervous but alas the end result is sensational :) My timing was very fortunate too, with the rapid decline of the A$ l could not justify the cost of doing this project today, the Australian currency has devalued 55% since l started this thread not so long ago :banghead:



Ask a local person skilled in crossover design to inspect your crossovers. It seems that all components are wired to the outside of the epoxy so they are measurable with a LCR Meter.

You just may be onto something there, a lot of wires run from out of the black boxes. l guess this would only fall down if multiple components were connected but even then, that will only be a drama if there is a mix including inductors, which l suspect is unlikley. Now l just need to find someone to do the measuring, l will look into this in the next few months.


Simon,

Thanks for those nice pics.

My suggestion before looking at another crossover system would be to borrow a top flight high current amp of at least 200 watts a side and see how it does.

Something like an ME or a butch Musical Fidelity.

The Tad twin system is a notoriously a difficult load to drive.

You might be surprised just how good they sound.

The next step would be to look at a proper MTM crossover network as there could be a degree of vertical polar lobing with those crossovers that are designed for both woofers together under the horn.

I have had discussions with other Tad horn users and the notch filtering is not that difficult to arrange if you have suitable test equipment. But it is very system dependant with location of the horn and other components on the baffle.

If I were you I would contact Krix or VAF Research in SA and see of you can come to some arrangement as it really needs to be done on site to make a proper job of it. (Or you could deliver a cabinet to their facility). Its not worth screwing around with frankly.

Once you have the proper data someone like Greg Ball on the east coast(ex Mark Levinson) can look at the suitable active crossover.

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your ideas, l have been thinking about contacting Greg about his active crossovers as a way of getting into active. l understand he is using Mosfets not OpAmps which l like.

The melody Valve amps shown in some of the pics certainly struggled to control the woofers, the sound was pretty disjointed and the bass uncontrolled. l am now using a pair of Xindak 200wpc Class A Monoblocks, absolutely wonderful amplifiers. l cannot recommend them highly enough, they transformed the TAD's sound completely.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/simongara/HiFi/IMG_1760Custom.jpg


These horns are really nice looking!

So are you going to integrate the 703 ?

Maybe in the future, l have found so far that l do not feel like l am missing out in the top end, but maybe ignorance is bliss :D

Cheers,
Mondie

[Mondie]

Time for an update :)

http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/17/d4/7273_1.JPG

l just picked up an Ashley XR2001 from eBay at a good price so a move to active is on the cards for 2009. At this stage l dont have the additional amplifiers but will keep an eye out for something suitable. Initially l will try 2 way and see what improvements l pick up and the in the future, add a pair of ET703's.

l have one question on driver protection. For those who run the 4001 in an active configuration how do you protect it from blowing? l have been told a fuse by one user and a capacitor by another, which seems like a bad idea to me. A fuse seems like the best protection but what value?

All the best for 2009.
mondie

[Robh3606]

Hello mondie

Normally you use a Capacitor. Fuses blow but can and will pass DC before they do. A cap is a much safer option to keep DC out of the driver and what is traditionally used. That said a fuse would be better protection for feedback as a cap will not protect against a high power in band spike which potentially is just as dangerous.

As long as you don't go messing around with cables and unplugging things with the power on I doubt your going to have a feedback like issue at home. I have been running mine for years and never had any kind of high frequency oscillation or spike.

I don't use Tads but a compression driver is a compression driver

Rob:)

[Mondie]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the pointers. What value cap is used to provide sufficient protection without causing phase issues?

Cheers,
mondie

[pos]

The rule of thumb is to choose a cap value so that the corner frequency is half (or even less) the frequency of your active crossover. You have to check the impedance of your driver and horn combo to calculate this value.

[Mr. Widget]

On my nominally 16 ohm TAD TD-4003 drivers I use an inexpensive Bennic 47uF polypropylene cap. That works out to ~200Hz and my actual crossover is fourth order at 800Hz. When I remove the cap or place it in the circuit I can hear no change.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have you tried CCing the protection caps?:duck:

[Mr. Widget]

Have you tried CCing the protection caps?:duck:You know, that was suggested, but I have literally shorted them out on the fly and heard no change and listened to them both in and out of the circuit. They don't seem to affect the sound at all. If they did I sure as hell would give it a try.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would definately keep the capacitor in there for anyone looking over their shoulder at this thread. It only takes another family member to turn the wrong thing off first when your not around and ooch!! Its bad enough watching your woofers come out to meet you.:)

[louped garouv]

I use an inexpensive Bennic 47uF polypropylene cap.

Widget

does the use of these protection caps affect phase considerations?

[grumpy]

you could calculate this, but then it would be out of band also (very low in level).

[Mondie]

On my nominally 16 ohm TAD TD-4003 drivers I use an inexpensive Bennic 47uF polypropylene cap. That works out to ~200Hz and my actual crossover is fourth order at 800Hz. When I remove the cap or place it in the circuit I can hear no change.


Widget

HI Widget,

l would be playing around with XO frequencsy in the 500-800hz range so this sounds like it would work for me too. The 4001 is mounted on a TH4001 clone so l guess the impedance is comparable to your system. Dumb question time, does the cap simply go on the +ve terminal on the 4001?

Cheers,
mondie

[Mr. Widget]

Wire it in series, not parallel. + or - doesn't matter... unless of course you are using audiophile cable that is polarity sensitive.


That last bit was a joke.


Widget

[spkrman57]

Mondie,

Those look great!

I am one of those in the minority that will accept a HF response of only 16khz to 18khz and be happy with the results. I find the problem of integrating a tweeter to my horn speakers to be annoying. If I can tell where a tweeter is by listening, it's not worth the trouble.

Cheers, Ron

[Mondie]

Thanks Widget, l will avoid those polarity sensitive cables ;)

Ron, what freq were you bringing in the tweeter? l would like to bring the ET703's in at around 8khz based on gut feel and others experiences on where it sounds best.

Cheers,
mondie

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would have a look at Widget's implementation of the tweeter.

Nice set up Mondie.

Too early for me to make a call on it for adding tweeters or super tweeters but with the 4001's on Emilar horns the extension and resolving power exceeds my expectations.

I see this as a case by case thing and its as much about taste as it is about balance.

In an old Red book with Altec plans I read about a formula used to determine the balance of a system at the overall frequency extremes. The intent being that the lower your system goes the higher it should go to project the right spectral balance (and visa versa).

There is perhaps some truth in this as standard FM radio sounds reasonably balanced. But add an octave of lower bass and the highs are found wanting. The same with the highs where if you decide to add tweeters to extend the top end there needs to be an equal extension of the lows.

I would suggest this is why a basic two way can work so well and beyond that if you plan to augment the lows you end up also augmenting the highs...a bit like a see saw there needs to be equalibrium to balance the frequency extreme.

With the advent of refined technologies like Be and careful engineering of woofers the performance of a two way is much improved overall. Beyond that attempts to improve what the laws of physics say you can't do with a 2 way leads complications such as the integration of the lows and the highs that are not so simple.

In some respects I suspect this is why the vintage 4 ways have survived all these years where users value the precision and extension of the 4 way over the coherance of a two way.

Ian

[spkrman57]

Mondie,

I usually bring the the horn tweeters at 20khz w/6db oct crossover. That is usually a 1 ufd (oiL) cap @ 8 ohms so all it adds it air up top.

The reason I prefer a 2-way with limited frequency bandwidth capabilities is that they image better than any 3-way or 4-way I have worked with.

My favorite 2-way system usually has a JBL 2226 in BR crossed over to a 1.4" compression driver on round wooden Edgar horns. The sweet spot is very tight in my small living room, but you can hear things in the recordings that are intensely revealing.

I also tend to prefer single-ended-triode tube amps of less han 10 WPC.

So as far as the majority of JBL speaker fans I fall in the minority due to my designs and amp power ratings.

Regards, Ron


Thanks Widget, l will avoid those polarity sensitive cables ;)

Ron, what freq were you bringing in the tweeter? l would like to bring the ET703's in at around 8khz based on gut feel and others experiences on where it sounds best.

Cheers,
mondie

[Mr. Widget]

My favorite 2-way system usually has a JBL 2226 in BR crossed over to a 1.4" compression driver on round wooden Edgar horns. The sweet spot is very tight in my small living room, but you can hear things in the recordings that are intensely revealing.

I also tend to prefer single-ended-triode tube amps of less han 10 WPC.That all sounds good to me as well... those salad bowls do image well, but damn it is a small sweat spot. Don't move an inch... oops it's gone.:banghead:


Widget

[spkrman57]

But since I listen alone most of the time and have a very small living room, I tend to prefer that setup compared to horns of wider dispersion.

I like to show folks while they are listening in the sweet spot what happens when you walk in front of one of the horns. It is quite dramatic!

Regards, Ron




That all sounds good to me as well... those salad bowls do image well, but damn it is a small sweat spot. Don't move an inch... oops it's gone.:banghead:


Widget

[Mondie]

Guys,

The time has come to sell my TAD's. l recently purchased a pair of active ADAM Tensor Alpha's as l help represent ADAM in Australia, l was planning on keeping my TAD's but alas, after living with the Alphas for a week there seems little point in keeping them.

These are sensational speakers, they really opened my eyes up to what is possible in home audio. They need a sizeable room, at least 30m2 to give their best. TAD have recently increased the RRP on these drivers dramatically and l feel its only a matter of time before Pioneer cease TAD driver manufacture all together (hope l am wrong)

At this stage l am looking to sell the system complete with crossovers but if there is no interest l may consider selling them off in parts. l imported the cabinets from the US and l am willing to assist in arranging freight anywhere. l will put a FS posting together with full details when l have more time. In the meantime if you have any interest don't hesitate to drop me a PM

Cheers,
mondie