Help - What Speakers Will Work For My Room?

[gsb001]

Hi Everyone.
Hoping to get your feedback and thoughts before I go too far down the wrong path.

I have a 40’ x 40’ room with 9’ ceiling, I'm trying to fill with wonderful JBL sound. I love playing my 2 channel music really loud. And I live in the Chicago area.

Earlier this year I started to upgrade my system from Bose 5.1 HT and Sony ES AV receiver.

So far this is what I have. Pair of 4311's wall mounted with bridged Carver M500 amps. Pushing about 800 peak watts per channel. This is not an ideal set up to reach the kind of sound pressure and volume I’m looking for.

They get nice and loud – but the amp’s get too warm and again, just not getting the sound pressure to fill the large room. When it’s cranked – I feel it’s still missing the fullness.

I was thinking about adding another pair of 4311’s mounted next to the existing pair or a pair of L-150 / L150’s standing below the wall mounted 4311’s. Then have one of the Carver M500’s on each pair.

I picked those two speakers because I like the idea / look of having matched 4311’s and the availability on the used market. Finding L-150’s in the Chicago area has been a challenge. Shipping the L150’s from west coast for example makes me nervous – not to mention the extra costs. One big advantage of the L150’s is I would not have to buy more wall brackets (about $130 for the pair) and the install would sure be easier. Not to mention I have always loved the look of the towers with white 12” and 12” passive.

I have a lead on a pair of 4311B’s. Only two hours away, at $450 of the pair. I’m tempted to pick them up tomorrow.

I paid $550 for the 4311’s I have now and just re-coned one for $330. So I’m up to $900 invested. If I add the 4311B’s, I’m up to $1600 in speakers and brackets. Assuming I could get $650 for my current 4311’s and brackets. Should I sell them off and concentrate on finding JBL floor standing studio monitors?

How big would I need to get enough volume and sound pressure for my room? Would the 4430’s do it – or would I need to go as big as the 4435’s? As I recall – used 44XX’s go for pretty big buck’s. $1.5K, $2K, maybe even more. If I’m close on used 44XX’s costs, then I’m pretty even to the costs of two 4311’s or 4311 and L150 combo.

Other monitor model suggestions from you all would be very welcomed. Your thoughts on my room size and speaker requirement and power to drive them too.

Thanks in advance.
Steve

[gsb001]

27 views and no replies - I'm alittle surprised no one has offered up any input.

Am I missing something?
SB

[macaroonie]

Is your room really 40ft x 40 ft. If so that is really a big space for 4311 etc to fill with gusto. You are lucky in that by wall mounting the speakers that you have you are getting bass frequency reinforcement caused by the proximity to the wall.
Adding another pair of these will most likely NOT do the trick nor would a pair of L150. Don't be fooled by the looks of the 150 , the lower bass unit is a passive radiator not a driver.
Truth is you really need to get into something with a 15" bass driver and preferably a horn mid/top.
If you read around the forum the ' entry level ' for this is the L200. There are ways of upgrading these that are detailed here , but the main point is that if $$$ is an issue then these can be had at quite the bargain prices ( mostly )

Your suggestion of the 4430 is excellent if you can get them at the right $$$.
They will take you up to the next level thats for sure.
There is also a series that sometimes gets forgotten , SVA. Again do some searches in the forum and you will get some good info.

In the meantime be careful with the 4311's , you will be wanting them later for your den / bedroom /etc

Keep trawling ebay and Craigs list, its amazing the finds that some of the folks here manage to score.

Best of luck Mac

[coherent_guy]

... when you mention finding certain JBL models in the Chicago area, it is very difficult!! Most seem to have not left "home" or should I say, the womb of California, particularly the big studio monitors.

Surfing ePay I cross my fingers when seeing larger JBL listings, like 250's or L200s or L300s, but they are never even in the state of Illinois or within 1000 miles!

Macaroonie is right when suggesting big woofers and horn loaded compression drivers if you are on an SPL quest, most cone or dome high frequency drivers just don't have the capability, particularly in a big room. The high sensitivity of those drivers also solves power problems, your Carver amps will be loafing along. Exceptions to this is, as Macaroonie mentions, the SVA series, some of which are available on the Harman site, or the Performance series, which may be also found there. Click and scroll down:

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

Those won't match exactly the capability of the compression driver systems, but are above average for direct radiator systems. Not cheap, I know, but certainly not audiophile insane pricing. If only the Array series was a bit more accessible (and available!!)

You mention replacing your 5.1 system, but then seem to be talking two channel. Four or five 4311's would be a good surround system, but likely not give you your desired SPL level, in surround mode that is. I believe adding another speaker as you mentioned only raises your SPL level by 3db... or is it 6db... due to the laws of audio/physics. Regardless, you won't get double the SPL, unfortunately.

I'm at the point of building my own monitors from parts as others have done on this forum. All kinds of excellent info about that can be found here.

FWIW, I've had good luck with shipping larger speakers, not damaged at all, but all had factory packaging. Some via UPS/Fedex, others by BAX, but maybe I've been lucky.

So is it two channel or the surround system? Are they one in the same? Do you have a real sub-woofer, or the Bose thing? How many Carver amps do you have, and do you drive them from your Sony receiver?

[Titanium Dome]

The SVA recommendations are good ones. I have a 5.1 set up in a pretty large room with 14 ft. ceilings. It's two SVA2100, two SVA1800 and one SVA Center. I run them at 200W/ch, and they fill the room with ease. I rarely turn the volume past 1/3 and that gets me to 90dB.

I do have a pair of LE14H-1 based subs to handle the bottom end, so the SVAs do not have to reach below 80Hz.

[toddalin]

27 views and no replies - I'm alittle surprised no one has offered up any input.

Am I missing something?
SB

Probably few postings cause few wanted to tell you the bad news that coherent_guy told you..., the 4311's probably aren't going to cut it, even if you add more. If the room is as big as you note (i.e., 14,400 cubic feet), you need BIG sound.

15s and horns are the way to go. If you've got the space (sounds like you do), probably one of the best bangs for the buck now is the 2445 on the 2360A. Match these with some 2225s or even 2235s (less efficient but more real bass). Put an 077 (or 075) on top and, with the right crossovers, you will have a stellar system.

I have a set of these 2445s/2360As in my living room now and am loving the he-- out of them! The horns are large and efficient, so the mids are effortless and just seem to "float" through the room. Linda and I are going miss these bad boys and will hate to see these go to an LHF member in two weeks. :(

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Concrete_Rocks/index_001.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Concrete_Rocks/index_002.jpg

[gsb001]

Thanks for all of your replies. Nice custom made stuff.
This is a reply from another Carveraudio.com fourm, I'm psoting hear for your inputs.
Steve
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the replies. It’s really turned me around on my direction and thoughts of how to increase the sound pressure I’m looking for.

As I heard on this forum many times - better to ask questions first.
I’m giving up on the idea of adding another pair of 4311’s or L-150’s.
OBI56 made some speaker suggestions.
Think Klipschorns, LaScalas or Cornwalls, Altec A-7s, Large Mackie or JBL horn loaded club speakers; something in the stove to refrigerator size with a sensitivity or efficiency rating in the 95 to 100 db/M/W range.
I’m going to start goggling these to better understand not only pricing and availability, but would like to hear from you all on your impressions of these speaker suggestions.
My tastes run playing loud and flat freq response. I don’t want the speaker to add it’s own color. I always liked the home versions of JBL’s going back to the 1980’s when I sold stereos for a living. Any one remember Highland Super Stores? Mostly in Midwest. They closed when Best Buy and Circuit City beat them to the position of national / big box electronics stores. It’s funny - the country only supports two and maybe three chains of specialized stores. Like WalMart/Target - the two office stores, the two pet stores, etc.
I have a neighbor with Klipsch Hersey’s. They are 12” woofers and horn, with a powered sub woofer. He uses a Denon HT receiver - some where in the 120 watt area. My impression was, they are very bright. And loud. Barely had to turn volume up, and they were screaming.
To me they just sounded off balance. Did not seem like an accurate reproduction of the recording. More like three distinctive elements shoved together, and the results were not very flattering.
I have to say - I did not get to play my collection of songs I know well and was not able to play with the sub, receiver or speaker placements. So this is a first impression with limited variability’s. I still have the impression that the horns kind of scare me as far as getting good sound.
On the other hand - I have to remind myself that I need to fill a large room at high volume - so maybe the horns will sound better in my room.
Thanks
Steve

[Regis]

I'd stay away from the club speakers (IMHO). They're made to produce music, not reproduce music. Secondly, unless you like the 'industrial' look of metal mesh grills, black paint and carpet, then that's what you'll have to live with. I don't necessarily buy into the 'flat and accurate' theory, as I believe that has been shown to be 'flat' sounding. The reason JBL's are as popular as they are, is because they are somewhat 'colored' and even the audio engineering group recognizes this.

In fact, I read an audio engineer's perspective on why they've strayed from the Westlake-JBL use in the studio. It sure sounded fantastic while they were mixing it, but once it went to the consumer, who had a flat or budget speaker set, it was sure to disappoint on the consumer system.

As far as size, refrigerator or stove size is unnecessary unless you're picking up one of the massive (and very expensive) Everest systems or the bigger 43xx monitors (4343, 4344 or rarer yet, 4345). I believe you're undecided here. If you think the L-150's aren't big enough, the L-150A is a pretty good speaker and if you stuff a 2214H woofer and an LE5-9 to match, you'll have a speaker that'll pound you good (I know, I modified three pairs like this). If you don't think that will do it, then you'll probably need a pair of L-300's or 250 Ti's. These will output more sound than you'll ever need or can sustain. If price is an object, go with the L-100T (not the original L100, but the 80's floorstander), or the L-7's if room permits. The XPL-200 is a hell of a performer as well. This is just my opinion.

[gsb001]

Hey Regis - tks for the reply.

The L150A's are high on my wish list. Just not convinced the will fill my 35 x 35 room.

What about Klipsch. Do you have any experiance with Cornwalls or LaScala's?

They seem like a bargain compared to JBL's and seem to have more in the market.

Thanks Again,
Steve

[Don C]

Cornwalls will sound a LOT better than Heresys. La-Scalas are not worth considering IMO. But the cornwalls still have poorly controlled bass, and the response is not exactly flat. Step up to JBLs.

[Titanium Dome]

I remember Highland Appliance in Ohio and Michigan, competing head-to-head with Fretter Appliance and ABC Warehouse. Only ABC is still in business.

I bought some JBL LX300s at Highland, and I got my first SharpVision LCD projector at the closing sale. I got my first pair of JBL L7s at ABC.

If your room is truly 35x35 (or 40x40--which is it?), I'd still recommend SVA2100/SVA1800 speakers as your best bet. I've got XPL200s, L7s, L250s, and lots of others that do fine in medium to large spaces. But 35x35 is beyond large, and the SVAs have the power to fill it in a legitimate 5.1 set up.

[BMWCCA]

Well, when I have to fill a room that size or larger, we generally use two of these:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31EYN759NFL._SL500_AA250_.jpg
Mackie SWA1501


with one of these on top of each:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Gl-OaVswL._SS400_.jpg

Mackie SR1530z


Granted, that's about $4,000 but then it includes something around 2,000 watts of amplifiers. Since you're not looking for an intimate listening environment, the dance-hall sound of these shouldn't bother you too much!

[gsb001]

I re-measured. Room is 35x35.

[gsb001]

I'm going for two channel. For HT, I'm going to use my Sony ES receiver and Bose 5.1 cubes with powered sub.
Steve

[gsb001]

JBL SVA2100. Wow big bucks. I bet they are hard to find too.

Same with the Mackie stuff.

I'd like to stay in the $1.5K range.

I'd say I'm about 60% to where I want to be with my 4311's and Carver amps. So I keep thinking I only need to more up a few levels and not all the way to the last recommondations.

That's why the Klipsch seem like a good option.

I see a mint pair of L-65's sold for $1.5K on ebay this week. Wonder how they would do in 35x35 room, and what kind of power would they need?
Thanks
Steve

[gsb001]

Nice to see an old Highland customer out there. I worked there for 12 years. The store was a nice blend of good brands, prices and service.
Steve

[BMWCCA]

I see a mint pair of L-65's sold for $1.5K on ebay this week. Wonder how they would do in 35x35 room, and what kind of power would they need?L65s are still a small cone-driver midrange. They'll work too hard, and the LF is only a 12". My 030 (15" D130) have often filled bigger rooms or the entire outdoor world at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains in my youth with nothing but a 75w Crown D150. The big full-range woofer was the key and will be for you, too. I think my L112 and 4412As fill a room as well as an L65, and the L150As will kick their butts, but I'm sure someone will tell me how wonderful the 077 is, when that's not what fills the room anyway. Go big three-way monitor with compression-driver mids, or 4-ways if you can afford it, or just keep the volume down! ;)

[Regis]

Split set-up?

gsb001, I run my setup in a wide open area that's similiar to yours. The significant other's living room is quite large with a huge vaulted ceiling and behind that is the dining room. I actually have the speakers set up in the center of this space with the dining room behind the speakers and the living room ahead of them. That places me only about 12 to 15 feet facing them, as I sit on the couch (which is against the wall).

Are you really going to listen to your speakers from 35 feet away? Check out the picture below. Forgive the bluriness, but you get the idea. The couch is two feet behind the cherrywood coffee table in the right corner of the picture. I have gotten great sound out of my L-110's here, as well as my 4315's and of course, the L-300's and when I crank any of them up, they're clearly heard through the whole house (and outside if really crank them!)

[gsb001]

Thanks BMWCCA.
In my heart - I want JBL's and know they are top notch.

I keep going to 4430 and 4435 as good choices for the money. Not sure the 4430's would cut it- but I bet 4435's would be out of this world. Big bucks and even harder to find sellers.

What others should I be looking at?
SB

[gsb001]

Regis - great picture. tks for including.

Those L65's look real nice.
SB

[Edwards]

The physics here are simple....you want loud, go big!

I have made several postings on these forums, about my personal experiences with large JBL speakers, always thinking that big was better, and I learned the hard way. Big is loud, but big is not always better. I will also say that some of the larger JBL models are more designed to be placed on or near a wall, and I have never been a fan of the "on the wall sound", so that is a limiting factor of what I am about to recomend.

I had a pair of L-300's that I could not get to sound "at home" in a room 18X20 with a 9 foot ceiling. The room was too small, for these monsters, and I could not get the speakers out into the room far enough to 'Bloom". I powered those with a sony v-fet amp, and still had no success.

At a different address I had a pair of L-250's that sounded loud and impressive in a 14X16 with 7 foot celieng but they did not sound "comfortable" in a room that small. I had a demo cd from Reference Recording's that had an SR-71 fly over, and when I would play that for guests, my neighbors had to think that there ws a supersonic plane flying over the Neighborhood. That was powered with a Bryston 4b.

As for the L-65's as I still own a pair, They sound wonderful at all volumes. In my 14X16X7 room, and they sounded super sweet, and really comfortable. They rendered a small club sound stage very well, and presented a large orchestra with the proper size. The only down side is that these are shorter speakers, and tend to not project the height information as well as a taller speaker.

Your situation is a bit different, you have a significantly larger space, and a higher ceiling, so I would recomend that you look for a pair of L-250's. That will project the upper registers into the 9 foot space really well. If they do not sound good in a room that large, then you may want to consider some different electronics.

Have fun!

[rj2077]

4430's w/ a sub, or the 4435's. you wont regret it. i have a set of l-65's, i rather listen to the 4430's with a pair of B-380 subs. $ for $, the 4430's are hard to beat. my opinion only.

enjoy

[Tweak48]

Hi Everyone.

I have a 40’ x 40’ room with 9’ ceiling, I'm trying to fill with wonderful JBL sound. I love playing my 2 channel music really loud. And I live in the Chicago area.

I installed a set in our cabin; about the size of your room and much higher ceilings. With a 70 watt tube amp, they are amazing.

Very smooth, musical, and they have the efficiency and headroom to blow your walls out!

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/4670d.pdf (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/4670d.pdf)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/tweak48/PICT0089.jpg

[BMWCCA]

I installed a set in our cabinAnd if the cabin is a-rockin' can we all come a-knockin'?

[Tweak48]

And if the cabin is a-rockin' can we all come a-knockin'?

You bring the Stevie Ray Vaughn and I'll supply the refreshments!!:cool:

[BMWCCA]

You bring the Stevie Ray Vaughn and I'll supply the refreshments!!:cool:Umm, dead, or alive? Texas Flood okay? I might even slip some early Mato Nanji in on you, too.

[Regis]

Thanks BMWCCA.
In my heart - I want JBL's and know they are top notch.

I keep going to 4430 and 4435 as good choices for the money. Not sure the 4430's would cut it- but I bet 4435's would be out of this world. Big bucks and even harder to find sellers.

What others should I be looking at?
SB


Not sure if the 4430's would cut it? Gawd, I have to ask the question, have you ever heard a large cab JBL with a single 15? Because if you have, you'd know. The maximum SPL for a 4430 is 119 db! That is unbelievably loud! My L-300's (they're not L-65's btw), with a single 15" each put out far more sound than I can sustain and yes, I love my music loud. The neighbor has heard the music 75-100 feet from the front of the house at the mailbox across the street and that's with all the doors and window's closed.

So if you want SPL, you might go with the 4435 (but that's almost overkill, but they work for a home environment), or as suggested, the B-380 Subs with a pair of 4430's. Or get a pair of L-300's for gawdsakes. If these aren't enough, you can always try the Vertec series.

[gsb001]

I picked up a pair of 4412A's last week. Placed them in oposent corners of where my existing 4311’s are. I’m running each set with one Carver M500-t per pair. Rated at 250 watts per side.

My room is about 35' x 35'. And the single pair was not filling the room. With the second set – four total, I’m very happy with the sound. Really filled out the large space nicely. Now when I move from side to side in the room, it’s nicely balanced with equal amounts in all area’s.

While I’m waiting to upgrade to larger 15” floors with horn mid – I’m quite satisfied with this compromised arrangement.

The two models seem to mix well together. If I had to pick – I think the 4311’s have better mid range. They are also my first vintage JBL buy – so emotionally I’m partial to them to begin with.

Thanks again for all of your inputs and options. Very educational and fun to hear from you all.
SB

[boputnam]

I picked up a pair of 4412A's last week. Placed them in oposent corners of where my existing 4311’s are. ... The two models seem to mix well together. Hmm...

Seems to me the woofs in the two different cabinets are working against each other, at least if I'm interpreting the N4412 correctly...

[John]

Hmm... [/font][/color]

Seems to me the woofs in the two different cabinets are working against each other, at least if I'm interpreting the N4412 correctly...

Ya but if it sounds good why mess with it!!!:p

[gsb001]

Hi John,
I'm not following you on the wooflers working against each other? What is "interpreting the N4412" Mean?

This is how the speakers are positioned now.
I know they are way too far apart for these size speakers for proper imaging, etc. Being near field listening designed speakers, again, room size is a challenge for them.

Between the limited positions I have due to TV placement, windows, fireplace etc – this is the best I’ve come up with.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.
Thanks
Steve



35 x 35 room4312A (L ch) 4311 (R ch) FloorWall Mounted Listening Area 4311 (L ch) 4312A (R ch)Wall Mounted Floor

[boputnam]

Hi, John
I'm not following you on the wooflers working against each other? What is "interpreting the N4412" Mean?Uh, that would be to me...

N4412 is the passive crossover network imbedded in the 4412 cabinet. Looking at the schematic it looks to me that the 128H-1 woof is moving cone "in" on positive signal (negative woofer wired Red to GRN).

The 3112B network has the 2213H woof in the 4311 moving cone "out" on positive signal (negative woofer wired Red to GRN/BLK).

Also, all the drivers in the 4412 are like-phased; the 4311 has the mid range opposite phase of the Woof and Tweet. If my read of the N4412 is correct (and I could be backward...), the Woof and Tweet are both out-of-phase with the like counterparts in the 4312.

But since they are a room apart, if it sounds good, live it!

[grumpy]

Simple enough to try swapping +/- speaker leads from one amp (to like speakers).
See which sounds better.:)

[boputnam]

Good suggestion, Dave! Especially since this backward topic seems new to our new gentle reader... :applaud:

[gsb001]

I'll try that - tks guys
Steve