Five-Screen reproduction

[JBL 4645]

Anyone interested in trying the five-screen experiment? Then hare it is a simple diagram as the original one no longer exists on the main page due to the URL link gone missing? So I’ve looked over the original and just applied my own, hope its easy to follow and it does require several Dolby stereo Pro-Logic decoders amplifiers and more importantly matching five sets of loudspeakers, preferably JBL. :D

The original article written by Norm Schneider is quite ingenious and it really does work.





The Search For New Channels
Reproducing SDDS Soundtracks
Norm Schneider


Real Channels

It is interesting that many manufacturers of home theatre processors have derived additional playback channels that are really not there. By adding circuitry to pull infor­mation from sounds that momentarily travel from the screen channels to the surround channels, additional "fill‑in" material can be directed to side wall loudspeakers to give the illusion that the sound is moving from the screen, down one wall, to the left or right surround loudspeaker(s). Since home equipment is designed and built for the pleasure and satisfaction of the buyer, there is nothing wrong with this technology. In professional movie theatres, we cannot get away with these schemes because the movie producer is looking for as accurate a playback as possible. This scheme is simi­lar to the Surround EXT" format where an additional sound channel is matrix encoded between the left and right surround channel on Dolby™ Digital or DTS Digital Surround soundtracks. The difference is that the cen­ter surround channel is a separate and dis­crete (real) channel added to the digital soundtrack.
There are, however, two real additional channels on many digital sound DVD discs that have gone unnoticed by these same manufacturers. Perhaps they have not dis­covered them or do not feel they add that much to the presentation. Before I tell you where they are and how you can retrieve them, let's talk about how some of the major digital soundtracks are prepared for theatri­cal release.


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The Printmaster

The 5.1 digital sound on your DVD comes from the same printmaster used by the movie companies to encode their sound­track into each of the three digital format processes commonly used in professional cinemas. The tracks are encoded into their proprietary format by each company and released to the theatres to play back on their own brand of processors, There is no compatibility between the three professional systems, and none are c compatible with the home versions of their own systems. Dolby and DTS have higher bit rates on their home systems than the professional version so a separate encoding process is required for the DVD digital release from the original stu­dio master recording. The encoded sound printmaster used in the production of a the­atrical film cannot be moved to the home DVD release because of these compatibility issues.

Sony Dynamic Digital Sound SDDS

The one system that has no counterpart in home systems is the SDDS digital sound­track. It can carry eight full‑range channels, or nine when the center surround channel is added using analog matrix encoding and decoding. Sony SIDDS eight‑channel sound­tracks have been used in over 100 major movies, including a special mix for Star Wars: Episode I‑The Phantom Menace. A discography of the eight‑channel digital releases can be found on the Widescreen Review subscriber Web site at www.WidescreenReview.com (http://www.WidescreenReview.com).

Two additional channels are encoded as discrete channels for playback in motion picture theatres that are equipped with the SIDDS digital system. These separate sound channels are especially needed where there are very wide screens to avoid the holes between channels present in systems that have only three stage (screen) channels. The two additional channels are between the left loudspeaker and center, and the right loudspeaker and center. A totally panoramic stereo field is created with sepa­rate material on each of the five channels. Aseparate eight‑channel master is delivered by the studio to the SDDS folks for encod­ing into their process. The 4tudio may deliv­er a mix‑down master to the 5.1 format for use in the Dolby and DTS formats. An eight-­channel master may be sent to the DVD authoring contractor for additional post pro­duction processing by those companies, or the 5.1 mixdown already contains the extra sound material.

When the eight channels are encoded into 5.1 format what happens to the two additional channels? Do they throw them away? No way! The extra channels contain separate material, such as certain instru­ments from the orchestra, sound effects or even dialogue. The additional tracks are commonly spread equally between the left and center channels, and the right and cen­ter channels so that nothing is missing in the playback.

What about cinemas that use the Sony SIDDS digital system that do not have five playback loudspeaker channels on stage? The Sony processor can be programmed to do an internal mix of the extra tracks. This is done during the initial setup of the equip­ment so that the two extra channels are divided one‑third to the center, and two‑third to each of the outside channels. The theatre can use their system in a 5.1 mode without losing any of the original recording.

The use of five full‑range stage channels is not new. The original Todd‑AO magnetic 70mm soundtracks have five full‑range stage channels and one surround channel. It was common practice during the 50's and 60's to also include dialogue on the extra channels. If an actor moved from the center of the screen to full left, while talking, the sound would pass from the center loud­speaker to the left extra, to the left. That is rarely done today. Dialogue is "nailed" to the center channel no matter where the actor is standing in the picture. One reason for adopting a hard center dialogue channel is that cinema systems were not equalized 40 years ago and the characteristics of the voice could change as the actor moved between channels. Also the traveling voice was more difficult to reproduce in auditoriums with less than ideal acoustics. In great movies like Oklahoma, South Pacific, and others, do they throw away these channels in the DVD mix? Not at all! They are simply spread into the lesser 5.1 format stage channels. It is common for old timers to brag about how great the original Todd‑AO format was in movie theatres and wish it would come back. If these channels are really there, how can you retrieve them to play in your home theatre system?

How To Retrieve The SDDS Soundtrack

Several months ago we conducted experiments in our listening room at SMART Theatre Systems using a DTS professional cinema digital processor and the soundtrack of Godzilla originally recorded in the SDDS eight‑channel format. The analog outputs of the 5.1 processor were connected to two of the SMART' CS‑3X Jr. home theatre decoders. One between the center and right channels, and the other between the center and left screen channels. The listeners were completely amazed! Separate and distinct material was coming from the additional loudspeakers that were not duplicated on the main channels. The soundfield was totally panoramic with no gaps between the channels. (Please keep in mind that the outputs of the digital processor are analog, not digital.) At this point, a matrix steering device can detect common "in‑phase" material and direct it to a separate amplifier and loudspeaker.

We next previewed a DTS DVD of The Shadow, which was not recorded in eight-channels. The common mode material was again steered to our extra channels providing a bigger, more panoramic soundfield. Sounds that are panned from one channel to another will also appear momentarily in the new channels as the sound moves across the stage. Other movies also had pleasant surprises. Previously hidden material appeared on our new LE (left extra) and RE (right extra) channels. The sound coincides exactly with the action on the screen. Even though the early Todd‑AO 70mm soundtracks used the five full‑range stage channels, we cannot be sure the DVD author placed the tracks in the same place during mixdown to 5.1 digital. However, it should be fun to go through your library of DVD movies and see how many contain the extra "phantom" channels‑between‑channels.

Obviously we used our own CS‑3X Jr. matrix decoders that employ the patented Circle Surround™ ­process. This product is very similar to the model we manufacture for
movie theatres and is marketed to home theatre customers to produce the center surround channel in their playback system. It is, in fact, a full 5.1 analog matrix decoder and is ideal for decoding the PCM LT (left total) and RT (right total) outputs of your DVD player (for those of you who do not have a digital decoder). Another fine matrix decoder using Circle Surround is manufactured by Parasound. We do not believe you will get satisfactory results using products that incorporate a Dolby Pro Logic8 matrix decoder due to the well‑known and widely published quirks of that type of system. Since this experiment is all for fun anyway, you may want to play with various matrix decoders to hear the results.

It Takes TWO To Tango!



You must have two matrix decoder boxes that can be connected to your digital sound decoder. The first matrix is connected to the outputs of the left and center channels of your digital decoder or processor. This will produce a NEW left extra channel when material is present on the soundtrack. The matrix box has two inputs, but multiple outputs. The labeling may be confusing on the CS‑3X Jr. because the product is marketed to extract a center surround channel. Really, it is a high‑quality matrix decoder that may be used for several applications. Please refer to the wiring diagram for connection ideas.

If you wish to experiment with inexpensive matrix decoders, you will soon discover that you wind up with two center channel outputs, one from each box. (Pick either one to feed the center channel in your system; they are the same material.)

Now that the "cat is out of the bag," you may see future home theatre processors that can retrieve the extra channels. But for now a simple matrix decoder will give you the same thrill. This could be of some benefit if you have a large screen in your home theatre, or you are sitting close to the screen and can hear the "holes" in the 5.1 playback.

If you enjoy experimenting, play some of the original Todd‑AO movies (Around The World In 80 Days, Sound Of Music, Mad, Mad, Mad World), all the Cinerama movies, and many other early 70mm titles. The practice of using five full‑range stage channels was stopped in the late 1970s when the left extra and right extra channels were used only to add extra bass to the sound presentation. Since it is possible to modulate a magnetic channel to only 100 percent, you need to add more bass‑only channels to get more acoustic bass in the room during loud sound passages. This technique was affectionately called "Baby Boom." The digital soundtracks of today have a separate low frequency effects subwoofer channel to supplement the bass.

DVD’s that were mixed from an eight-channel source will definitely contain the extra sound channels. Can you count on the mixer of the DVD digital soundtrack to put the additional channels equally between the left and center or right and center channels? Not always, but it is fun to find these little "gems" in many commercially released DVD’s. If you are a home theatre experimenter, this could be a lot of fun. Big hint‑U‑571.

Norm Schneider is President of SMART Theatre Systems.

Circle Surround is a registered trademark of SRS Labs, Santa Ana, California.

Pro Logic and Surround EX are trademarks of Dolby Laboratories, San Francisco, California.

Reprinted with permission from WIDESCREEN REVIEW Magazine - ISSUE 59



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Dialogue spoken in “My Fair Lady” (1964-1994) has Mrs. Pearce and Pickering voices heard more or less in-between left and centre while Higgins voice “I” walk over everybody is heard in the centre front, at present with the current set-up.


With the camera moving from different positions the continuity of sound and image is nicely placed



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Here are a few that I have collected on the DVD and laserdisc format

1 The King and I (1956) DVD
2 Forbidden Planet (1956) DVD
3 South Pacific (1958) DVD
4 Spartacus (1960) DVD
5 West Side Story (1961) laserdisc DVD
6 Lawrence of Arabia (1962) DVD
7 My Fair Lady DVD (1964)
8 Doctor Zhivago DVD
9 The Sound of Music (1965) DVD
10 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) laserdisc and DVD
11 Ice Station Zebra (1968) DVD
12 The Towering Inferno (1974) DVD
13 The Spy Who Loved Me (1977) DVD remixed for DVD
14 Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) laserdisc DVD
15 Superman the movie (1978) first edition VHS PAL transferred to DVD-RW
16 Alien (1979) laserdisc DVD
17 Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) laserdisc DVD
18 Willow (1988) DVD
19 Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) laserdisc DVD
20 The Abyss (1989) DVD
21 Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989)
22 Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) laserdisc DVD
23 Backdraft 1991DVD
24 Hook (1991) DVD
25 Toy Story (1995) laserdisc
26 Mission to Mars (2000) DVD
27 Monster’s Inc (2001) DVD

[Hoerninger]

Ashley,

thank you for sharing. I have gone through the whole article.

Did you try it?
It is not cheap as it sums up (decoders, amps, speakers).
Do you have a hint for a decoder?

I have found in the net that there is a patent regarding
The Circle Surround™ 5.2.5™ 5-Channel Surround System
described in a white paper:
http://www.smartdev.com/CS-paper.htm

And now OT. In my youth I saw the film
"Seven Wonders of the World" in cinerama. It was fantastic.
[Hamburg: Cinerama Grindel Filmtheater (Leinwandgröße 27 Meter x 10 Meter)]

There seems to be no DVD but I found this:
Cinerama thrills again
http://www.cineramaadventure.com/article-dailyvariety.htm

And a web link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinerama

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/How_The_West_Was_Won_screenshot.png/550px-How_The_West_Was_Won_screenshot.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:How_The_West_Was_Won_screenshot.png)
___________
Peter

[JBL 4645]

Peter

I’ve read a few paragraphs of the white paper and I was aware of the early matrix designs that where modified in later years by Dolby labs in a electronics magazine called “Electronics: The Maplin Magazine” where I brought a series of articles that covered the surround sound guide from past to present day, of course the magazines where published around early 1990’s and are somewhere in the storage cupboard.

I’ve heard of cinema on the “In-70mm” site and I can see the joins in the image that you provided from “How the west was won”.

It’s quite feasible to toy around with primary five channels once you know how they work or interact with each other and what you can achieve for your own home entertainment use only, something with different twist something that is going wow you or your friends.

Providing the surrounds are stereo otherwise it’s not going to be quite affective if the surrounds are monaural (mono) you might be able to get shift or repositioning of certain sounds but they will only be moving from rear back to sidewall or centre wall surround. Yes I just make up these new names until someone patents it. LOL

It may sound complex, in fact it’s almost over my head with the concept of the design but I’m certain the idea is sound, and will work, but like all new or untried concepts it’s all trail and error and playful experimentation. The idea came to me several years ago and as still remained undone in practice.

Place the same Dolby stereo pro-logic decoders on each side with left front passing into the decoders right input and with right output feeding back into the amplifier for normal operation or special event DVD titles.

The right rear surround place the input into the left channel input with output feeding back into the amplifier to drive the rear or sidewall combinations attached to the sidewalls.

The centre channel output from the Dolby stereo pro-logic decoder feed it off to in one of two ways.

1 is to place a dedicated matched sidewall surround as seen in the basic diagram and send it directly to the middle.

2 is to keep all the sidewall surrounds playing the same signal but with near independent amplifiers driving the each sidewall arrays and with an audio mixer assigned to do a few simple mixing techniques of running the sidewall surrounds and several mixers will be needed you can blend the centre phantom signal once the decoder detects a signal that has near to the same frequency response it will be divided, subtracted from part of the left front and rear left and sent to the middle.

It’s simpler to go with first concept because I can only see the second concept confusing most.

Now I’ve been working on the idea to use centre rear with this idea, and I’ll leave that until I’ve evaluate the idea a bit further in theory.

If you try this idea out and send all channel pink noise and then engage the Dolby stereo pro-logic decoder to ON it will subtract some of the pink noise from left front and right front and rear left and right. But you will need at least two decoders for this to work. Once its all playing in stereo there should be a more realistic movement as its been shifted along the sidewalls and rear.

There might be some strange musical moments as well since the decoder will be looking at signal passing into it. most films don’t often have this equal level of sound and few now and then in six-track Dolby stereo digital process may not have any surrounds present because the mixing engineer re-recoding mixer has placed all the sound over LCR.

Few films that often have this type of effect that spring to mind are, Far and Away (1991) Forrest Gump (1994) and Black Rain (1989).

The few films that I have discovered with the side middle wall surround effects are “Saving Private Ryan” “E..T the extra-terrestria”l (1982-2002) Flight Plan (2005) and I believe “Goldeneye” (1995).

One moment to listen for on Flight Plan is chapter 3 where the passengers are placing carry luggage in the overhead compartments, you’ll hear the sound at the fronts left and right at different intervals while hearing the sound on the surrounds left and right. So if you use the decoders to centralize the sound to the middle sidewall it should open up a bit of space in front and on the rear as well.



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[JBL 4645]

The newest find to add to the sidewall centre middle surround is The Mummy (1999)

In chapter 5 “The Magi Strike” “Evelyn Carnahan” (Rachel Weisz) is grabbed and trust against the wall and questioned about a (map and a key) she looks puzzled and her eyes move towards a table in her cabin, the Magi looks at the table just when “Richard 'Rick' O'Connell” (Brendan Fraser) yells out “Evelyn” that’s sounded on the front left and rear left at the same time, thou rather disorienting with its foggy localization. It does make me turn my head to the left thou with two sources of sound coming from different locations spaced out along the left side does make it difficult.

There is logical Mummy solution one that has been around for quite some time now and this little black box of magic can eliminate the issue thou it would take a bit of practice to finesse it.

Using several good ole Dolby matrix decoders placed between the (rear left and front left) and (rear right front right) will be looking for anything that is placed in-between. Unless its positioned left front with no other identical sound thou there might be a sound effect or part of the music that will be placed in centre middle wall creating not a real centre sidewall effect but rather a matrix sidewall effect.

This will still work with centre back and like I said several decoders would be needed for special installations due to cost which is no more than burning it all on AVR that will be obstacle within a few mouths down the road. This is should be treated as a custom set-up and not open for arguments, this is mealy a discovery to see how many film soundtracks will feature, sidewall centre middle effects.

What will happen once connected up and calibrated for equal timber balance, you should notice part of the left front signal and rear left signal diverted to the middle centre sidewall surround. Same applies to the opposite side.

Please be aware this is backward capable so if you what to bypass this mode then select the Dolby pro-logic mode to “off” or “on” which ever.

I’m looking into the possibly of getting the centre back surround to integrate with the re-plugging configuration as it would drive most nuts! LOL

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[JBL 4645]

Chapter 10 “The Bringer of Death” 62 minutes 41seconds had another centre middle surround effect, so there are plenty of effects in this film that can surround you from multiple of positions.

When Evelyn gets separated from the others Jonathan calls out “Evy!” that is heard on left front and rear left at the same time, and yet slightly foggy, but it’s still heard, but foggy.

So now that I have come across so many of these type of mixing effects I know the concept would work.



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[JBL 4645]

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Best sounding moments with JBL well, there are many so many, so I’ll pick the science fiction thriller Hollowman (2000) for its excellent craft in visual effects and sound effects editing, that has some creepy directional sounds moving around the viewer.


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Notably the moment where Linda uses the canister has flamethrower to fight the deranged and dangerous Sebastian, off with devastating results of burns to his body, and the whole underground facility, getting damaged at the same time though, Linda’s rage of fury.


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When Sebastian has removed all his clothing, leaving a hand full of ashes on the floor, and once again his appearance, is obscure, you don’t know if he had time to run around Linda to surprise her? So she then looks around then upwards towards the (fire water suppression system). With a short burst of flame, the sprinkler is activated sending commands to each sprinkler down the corridor.


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This starts at centre channel the fans outwards over matching LCR then onto the centre back surrounds if you happen to be using centre back surrounds in your home cinema. You still get a fine result with standardized stereo surround configuration, but its far more exciting and entertaining with centre back surrounds.


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Once the sprinklers are working and dispersing water everywhere, with droplets landing on the concrete flooring that sounds like mild pink noise, the rest of the action KICKS back in with some laughable almost insane comic action.

Check it or but it it’s a blast of film.



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Revisiting the Hollow Man with director’s cut that I brought yesterday and the (water sprinkler got me thinking again).

Where the sound of, each water burst that moves along the ceiling towards the back or at least that’s the impression I’ve been getting and something in-between is missing?

Now since the sound is mostly (centred front with 5 bursts of water) (then 1 burst of water on centre back surround or sent in equal dispersion on left and right surround if you don’t happen to have the extra decoding/amp/speaker set-up).

What if Dolby pro-logic decoder was placed between centre front and centre rear surround.

I’ve done a simple diagram on paper only its rather simple when thinking about it.

Centre front plugged into the Dolby pro-logic decoder doesn’t matter which input is used first. Say left input (okay) then centre back from another Dolby pro-logic decoder that runs the surrounds okay normally in straight forward left and right surround or (left side centre back right side) when used as and when.


Now the fun the part!

With extra speakers matching of course everybody that is all the surrounds are the same!

Attach the extra surrounds to the ceiling! Now the Dolby prp-logic decoder will be looking for signal that is roughly in-phase along with frequency or tone lets not split hairs okay.

Now the tone or sound from this scene should happen overhead it should be less on the centre back and slightly less in centre front depending on the mix.

Now all I need now is two RCA phone leads with two female outputs to make this work or at least seem a bit more interesting.

Testing will be done with a dts demo music/calibration disc track 14 all-channels that is full spectrum pink noise. When switched to Dolby pro-logic while (left and front and sidewall surrounds are muted) while balancing is being performed the tone should come from overhead.

This function works similar to the five-screen idea.

Left and right inputs are used (left for centre front).
Right for centre back surround.
Left and right front outputs left is centre front and right is centre back surround.
Centre front on the decoder will be used for overhead surround.

Now a quick trip down the road before the shop closes I need a few plugs and leads.

[JBL 4645]

Adding to the list like the titles I’ve already mentioned there are few that have effects placed between centre and /left/right.

Revisiting The Thing (1982) last night, I spotted dozens of half panned front sounds that would also benefit from this. You could say you’ll be hearing different things?:D

[JBL 4645]

Peter

Found this on Youtube

CINERAMA - MGM Huge Screens, What it was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcXa1I36wJc&feature=rec-HM-r2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcXa1I36wJc&feature=rec-HM-r2)

0:45 In search for beaver! :rotfl:LOL enough said! How the Beaver Was Won!

[jcrobso]

Peter

Found this on Youtube

CINERAMA - MGM Huge Screens, What it was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcXa1I36wJc&feature=rec-HM-r2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcXa1I36wJc&feature=rec-HM-r2)

0:45 In search for beaver! :rotfl:LOL enough said! How the Beaver Was Won!
For 1963 it was good, but shift from screen to screen was bother some, If you didn't have a good seat it looked funny. I-Max is much better.
Here is a better clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31C5Ikj7hhE&feature=related
It is an epic movie rent it if you have never seen it.
This one has still shots that show the curve of the screen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KojAudDR_U8&feature=related

[JBL 4645]

The issue it has is with colour from looking at this trailer. Blue skyline colours has issues and I’m sure if a print got badly damaged on one the three its curtains! Not sure if I have seen this on TV many years ago. The water scenes going down the gorge I seem to recall.

How should one present this in the home with a modified screen that is curved and with five matching JBL speakers placed behind the screen? I think most defiantly! Oh, yeah the last video with the still pictures put the hook in me.
:applaud:

[jcrobso]

They use 3 cameras and a special 3 projection setup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinerama
I saw How the west was won with a group of friends in 1963, it was amazing for the time. The tickets were expensive! But I-Max blows it away.

[JBL 4645]

What we need to start off with is three DVD set containing the film and it needs to be lined up one to one on the screen and synchronised on the play mode. Its costly...but it’s doable.

Or it can be projected by a single DVD yet sent to three video projectors with custom aperture plate to cut-off the rest of the image so that one half is projected at side angles at a fuller height.

Left projector is for right
Centre projector is for centre
Right projector is for left

That way it won’t need to be synchronised rather than just lined up 1 to 1.

Yeah it is a bit tricky to do.

[jcrobso]

"Or it can be projected by a single DVD yet sent to three video projectors with custom aperture plate to cut-off the rest of the image so that one half is projected at side angles at a fuller height.

Left projector is for right
Center projector is for center
Right projector is for left

That way it won’t need to be synchronized rather than just lined up 1 to 1."

Yes this would work, it would be a pain to set, but it would work. John

[JBL 4645]

"Or it can be projected by a single DVD yet sent to three video projectors with custom aperture plate to cut-off the rest of the image so that one half is projected at side angles at a fuller height.

Left projector is for right
Center projector is for center
Right projector is for left

That way it won’t need to be synchronized rather than just lined up 1 to 1."

Yes this would work, it would be a pain to set, but it would work. John

Thought you’d like the idea. :)

By the way is it true what I read that the Cinerama version of How The West Was Won on bluray has smiley face image on flat surface when shown on TV or video projection.

[jcrobso]

Thought you’d like the idea. :)

By the way is it true what I read that the Cinerama version of How The West Was Won on bluray has smiley face image on flat surface when shown on TV or video projection.

It comes with two BR-DVDs one is the new letter box version and the other is the Smile face version. I have not had a chance to watch yet, will be out of town over the weekend. Next week I will be on vacation and I will watch both versions and give a report. John

[JBL 4645]

It comes with two BR-DVDs one is the new letter box version and the other is the Smile face version. I have not had a chance to watch yet, will be out of town over the weekend. Next week I will be on vacation and I will watch both versions and give a report. John

Yeah and run it on the pc for some screen captures A & B. Have a nice time out of town.:)

[JBL 4645]

On the ground and then sounds as (pit a patter) not from above even though its falling though free space and then lands upon a roof of car while inside it should mealy sound on the overheard surrounds?

If stepping outside of the car the ear will hear a different sense of space as the sound is now partly heard on the overheard and now on the below surround channels in uniform coverage like that inside the car.

It doesn’t sound on the common sidewall surrounds as it has for the past several decades? With the new advances of Dolby 16 channels the layout of the channels should be carefully thought out about where ambiance or hard hitting edge sound should be placed that will make the sound field even more exotic or even threatening?

Now while listening in my, living-room to just the sound of the keys being pressed on the keyboard and the whirring sound of the fan below my left ear partly reflected heard as half on my right ear while keys are sounded in front of me.

Also I can hear traffic to my right side coming from the widow at near to the same height level of the window.

So that like 2 different dimensions of space I’m hearing very basic everyday sounds. Now I might hear sound on my left ear from the common hallway a muffled sound of door in the distance. That’s a very board range of sounds.

Now since it’s not raining at the time, (but often when it comes down hard) it’s heard from above overheard within the attic over my living room and depending on wind and such where rain can be blown diagonally against the window that would mean there are several directions my, ears brain, is telling me where the rain is?

Now take outside again its raining? Now you could be standing in conservatory with the doors open and hearing part of the rain sounding relevantly in sound field that would say LCR as well as its landing on the ground or different surfaces of the ground.

Might be grass a few feet forwards and the patio and table standing outside so there are many obstacles where rain where laws of physics says it will sound?

Over the years sound of rain in the movies has been put to some degree of realistic use but often it sounds like white noise a kind of crispy frying sound spitting and so on around, around in surround.

Its not how I hear it in the real world?

Where is the first rain drop heard in town or city? The rooftops high above! Or the tallest branch leaf on tree in forest?

[JBL 4645]

Well I hope this diagram won’t have have anyone calling for the paramedics! :D

Its feasible for original 70mm classics to exist on Bluray and even DVD might need a Y lead patched on the LFE.1 with full spectrum monaural surround encoded on to the DVD unless it’s dts-ES encoded then where it will have spare channel.

All that is needed with the die hard fans is simple re-plugging in matter of seconds by swapping around the RCA phone leads.

If dts CD-rom can do it for 70mm and with the space or channels provided on Bluray with its maximum 7.1 it should be real easy it’s the studios that have to prove it to us. I’m feed up at seeing classic mixes condensed down to something they weren’t.

I would allow some poetic licence for .1 channel

[JBL 4645]

I think you need…below LCR middle LCR and top LCR discrete! So that’s just 9 channels so far.

For the surrounds it should be split-up into nine x9 discrete channels, below front surround, middle surround and back surround that is placed a few feet or so from the back wall against the sidewall.

This should be repeated for top sidewall surround middle sidewall surround and below sidewall surround.

So that’s just a whooping total of 18 channels for the sidewall surrounds to place sound images in the correct location as it would appear off screen.

For the back surround again 9channel discrete of top centre back surround, middle centre back surround and below centre back surround.

Now we need top or overhead surround! I think a three x3 channel discrete is so choice.
The overhead should be made into cluster to make up one solid array of left height surround middle and right to reduce the directional middle to high tones since lower tones will be defused. Walk into a large supermarket and listen to the overhead PA sound system that is superseded some 15 meters up in most stores. You’ll hear some of the lower tones defused and when standing directly underneath it, only then do you hear the middle to high tones.

For the below bottom surround well that’s a really complex one! Since we are seated within just 3 feet at best with are ears just 3 feet from the floor we’d need a really complex below surround as I can hear the difference myself and its complex. I’d say we’d need at least (trail and error) at least 8 channels at the bare minimum for the home.

So that’s mind boggling 53 channels

[JBL 4645]

Tomlinson Holman’s sound system can only do 10 basic primary directional channels and two discrete low frequency channels or are they playing the same signal twice like in the original 70mm DOLBY STEREO “baby boom” of 1977.

DOLBY can do 16channels but hasn’t been implemented as of yet. What are they waiting for? If they can do 16channels and how they should be arrange is bigger question on (us) the paying consumer.

If the time is now then the time is now get on with it and start producing new film mixes using the 16 channels and leave the classic films alone in there original form as that is how history records it.


The basics for the original was ether monaural stereo 35mm four-track 70mm six-track dts70mm / CDS 6channels / dts 6.1-ES cinema / Dolby SR-D 6channels with Dolby matrix- EX/ SDDS 6 to 8channels and now DOLBY 7.1 sigh sounds like SDDS8 doing a reverse?

Most if not all classic 70mm releases are being vandalized for bluray release yes I said vandalized beyond repair because once we have it you can’t undo it for the home. These selfish bastards are so tight ass they’d rather give what the younger kiddies don’t have a f&cking clue about is 7.1 and they think its f&cking art.

The 16channels should be arrange to also complement the original 70mm releases and keeping it in with the times, otherwise what is the fucking point of Bluray with its total 16 channel delivery?

Okay this is how I feel it should be arranged in.
Five-screen discrete, that’s five discrete channels to keep it in with 70mm releases and the odd SDDS8channel release.

Sidewall two discrete surrounds for each sidewall surround to move sound images along the wall rather than having a sound fading in and out on one fixed location to cerate the illusion of plane or car helicopter or warp speed enterprise flyby, so sound can now move from forward most sidewall surround to the next one and then over to the rear back surrounds or wherever?

For the rear surrounds two basic stereo left and right.

For above overhead surround two basic stereo surrounds made up in large arrays as you can not have a sweet spot in must cover uniformly otherwise what’s the point in having dead spots or gaps in sound?

For the blow yes below bottom surround two basic stereo channels made into a large solid array and yet I feel two just isn’t enough for below surround.

And last but not least the LFE.1.

That’s 16DOLBY channels to make you have wet delightful f%cking dreams for the entire year!:p

[JBL 4645]

One other thing that was on my mind was when we step outside of the room we still hear the sound in kinder of monaural way because we are not within the room with arrays of speakers surrounding the seating area.

We might hear some kinder shift like muffled sound moving from left to right of wall on the opposite side, but essentially it sounds like dull like muffled monaural sound.

[JBL 4645]

While using the vacuum cleaner to vacuum around the living room I was listening to the sound where it was mostly coming from was below, where the motor is housed in the casing. The tone varied in pitch as it got near to the sidewalls and slight open around the middle of the room. Loudness only changed a little bit small subtleties that make up the whole sound.

When packing the vacuum cleaner up, unplugging the plug from the mains socket as I bend down, pull the plug out there’s a ping sound of the springs inside the mains box, that sounds below from the POV angle I was look from.

Then wound the mains power cord up around the Dyson the sound moved from below to above from the crouched down angle position I was in.

If this was seen from someone standing behind me, there have totally different prospective of the sound.

[JBL 4645]

http://www.ambisonic.net/
Quote from the ambisonicn site.
Height in the LFE channel

One method is to add height information to the LFE channel. This is simple and obvious, and the only "decoding" required would be a high-pass filter (operating at speaker level if you wish) to drive the overhead speaker (all deep bass information, including such sounds from above, would issue from the sub-woofer: low bass sounds are - incorrectly I believe - regarded as not capable of localization).

The only problem with this method is the fact that some systems do not permit the LFE channel to carry full bandwidth (eg AC-3). In this case, evidently, height in the LFE channel simply won't work. In the case of DTS, the sixth channel can be full bandwidth, but many decoders roll it off. It may therefore be the case that G-format recordings for encoding with the two most common perceptual coding methods simply will not be able to include height.

This is not the case with DVD-A, with up to six full-bandwidth LPCM channels, or MLP, where there are at least six full-bandwidth channels available. You could either use the LFE-encoding technique or (with MLP) simply allocate another channel to height only. As it remains to be seen how many MLP decoders will actually allow you to handle more than six channels, the former technique is safer.

LFE.1 is restricted to around 120Hz so that leaves at least a good portion from slight above 120Hz with good steep crossover filter placed on LFE.1 end, and another one placed to where bass mid lows start from moving up though the mid range to high end.

I think this practice was done on Dolby 70mm prints with stereo split surrounds where one half is mono and the other stereo high frequency surrounds. Can’t find a diagram to how this was put together for that systems use, but I’m sure it’s easy.


If I placed a step crossover filter 100Hz or lower on the centre channel and messed around with it, I can make all the audio dialogue disappear with nothing except low frequency tones coming from the centre.

I can’t remember which film it was now??? That has an opening credits sequence where there is now and then a low frequency so low it sounds from the centre…what was it, think, think? I know! “Who’s That Girl” (1987).


I think subs lows should stay in the LCRS thou how many of us have large full spectrum matching loudspeakers in home at that doesn’t restrict us walking around the living room, without climbing over these speakers.

I’d say very few us! For me I have to compromise like many others like myself that have limited tight space!

The low tones have this crazy bass sound when watching a film or occasional stereo the tone tends to arrive differently from listening on headphones. I’ve heard this at the ABC screen 1 Bournemouth where the JBL stage channels 4675-A left and right produce this tone that’s not really felt at the seated location, not since the days of Earthquake sensurround! The tones arrive at different times or I’m located in spot in the middle where the tones are balanced equally, and they, have this tapping like sound on my eardrum, its kinder hard to describe.

Its like waving your hands around your ears you hear this flutter like sound, do it softly you’ll still hear it! Do it too fast you produce a windy like sound.

I’ll have to test this on spectrumlanb and see what the frequency graph produces?

[JBL 4645]

Waving my hand fast then slowly just 1 inch away produced this frequency.

[JBL 4645]

The drum bass beat on Titanic (1997) as Jack and Fabrizio run though the crowds of people on the dock beside the Titanic, the that tone produces this tapping like sound on the eardrum in the cinema via the JBL 4675-A stage speakers which is where most of the low end was coming from. Surprisingly its around the between the 50Hz and 80Hz range so now I know what to look for.

[JBL 4645]

The scene where the water floods the boiler room in Titanic (1997) is at the wrong angle for the surrounds chapter 16, time 101min 24sec most of the water is at lower level in the frame then comes at the camera washing over the surrounds should really come from multiple angles of surround speakers located at floor level middle height wall level higher wall level height all around the rooms walls ceiling as well for when there’s water effects that come from above.

When it bursts in on the boiler room, it’s just a load random noise of sound on the surrounds that makes no sense. Some shots fit in the rest is just a waste of time on the mixers. Its still an okay mix petty 7.1 is only adding more speakers to the sidewalls, how sad.

There’s only so much the decoder can do for the surrounds input. Some sounds will be located to overhead thou sometimes it just doesn’t work out the way I expect it. The mix needs to be totally discrete with its own…

Left sidewall height
Left sidewall middle
Left sidewall bottom

Centre back height
Centre back middle
Centre back height

Right sidewall height
Right sidewall middle
Right sidewall bottom

Blow surround left
Below surround centre
Below surround right

Overhead surround left
Overhead surround centre
Overhead surround right

So that sounds for all surrounds can freely move around rather than restricting them just to the sidewalls.

That’s 15 channels for the surrounds.


I seem to recall around 1998 (during the opening of) The Peacemaker (1997) when I asked a projectionist “does that sound doesn’t make sense” this is when a train sound pan, moves from front to stereo surrounds. Our position was standing at the back of the auditorium while the surrounds where 2 feet above standing height level.

The sound should have really panned moved underneath to below surround speakers, since that is the angle the camera is looking at while starting at horizontal flat angle then moving up above as the train moves towards it, the train passes underneath! That is what you would hear on location the sound won’t come from above it would come from below.

[JBL 4645]

Common front
1) Left
2) [Optional left centre for 70mm SDDS8]
3) Centre
4) [Optional right centre for 70mm SDDS8]
5) Right

No excuses for the need of 5-screen discrete.

Surround left sidewall
6) Left upper corner surround
[Optional centre phantom middle of wall with matrix decoding]
7) Left below corner surround

Surround right sidewall
8) Right upper corner surround
[Optional centre phantom middle of wall with matrix decoding]
9) Left below corner surround

Centre back surround
10) Upper corner back surround
[Optional centre phantom middle of wall with matrix decoding]
11) Below corner surround

Overhead surround
12) Left surround
[Optional centre phantom middle of ceiling with matrix decoding]
13) Right surround

Below surround (floor)
14) Left side floor
[Optional centre phantom middle of flooring with matrix decoding]
15) Right side floor

16) LFE.1

15.1

Now the 16 channels on Dolby 16channel can handle the needs of fuller (wrap-around surround) above, below and beyond….

[JBL 4645]

Now while travelling around yesterday something also got me thinking. One was listening to overhead footsteps. They tend to click on point that I look towards upwards as some passengers have high heels and they tend to click, click. First step is like slightly in front above then moves to middle point as the legs stretch outwards and the foot comes down one, two, there, four and so on, and move behind whilst looking upwards and leaning turning my head, till the footsteps go silent.

So maybe a 9 channel overhead discrete or to cut corners a bit a, 6 channel overhead with matrix decoder placed between…

Left side ceiling
Left front overhead
[Optional matrix for centre]
Back overhead

Centre middle ceiling
Centre front overhead
[Optional matrix for centre]
Centre back overhead

Right side ceiling
Right front overhead
[Optional matrix for centre]
Back overhead

So with basic 6channles and matrix decoder plugged in it would give a centre sound so if there are footsteps running overhead they can crisscross from left side ceiling front over to centre middle ceiling then over to right rear overhead on the opposite side.

Only snag is the centre middle on each channel will be moderately active. If it was just stereo ceiling front to back there would be (centre phantom hanging in-between that would be bit foggy).

Fully discrete is the way to go but Dolby would be fresh out of channels on 16 in next to know time. It could still reach 16 but without below surround and side to side rear corners surround.

[JBL 4645]

From 1993 to 2007 there have only been 99 SDDS8 releases for the cinema.

Full list SDDS6/8
http://www.sdds.com/

List of SDDS8 channel mixes with five stage channels and two surrounds one sub bass / 99 titles unless I miscounted.

Surf's Up Jun/07
Spider-Man 3
Ghost Rider
Open Season
Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby
The Da Vinci Code
RV
Fun with Dick and Jane
Zathura
The Legend of Zorro
Oliver Twist
Stealth
Ocean's Twelve
Criminal
Anacondas: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid
Spider Man 2
Big Fish
Underworld
Bad Boys II
Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle
Solaris
Stuart Little 2
Scooby-Doo
Spider-Man
The Time Machine
Black Hawk Down
Oceans 11
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Glitter
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
Pearl Harbor
A Knight's Tale
15 Minutes
All The Pretty Horses
Finding Forrester
Vertical Limit
The 6th Day
Charlie's Angels
Godzilla 2000
Hollow Man
The Perfect Storm
U-571
Whatever It Takes
Erin Brockovich
Girl Interrupted
Crazy in Alabama
Blue Streak
Star Wars: Episode One, The Phantom Menace
Apt Pupil
Out of Sight
Godzilla
Les Miserables
Replacement Killers
Starship Troopers
Seven Years In Tibet
Mastermind
Excess Baggage
Men In Black
Air Force One
My Best Fr iend’s Wedding
Con Air
The Second Jungle Book: Mowgli & Baloo
Addicted To Love
The Fifth Element
Anaconda
Das Boot: The Director’s Cut
Ghosts Of Mississippi
Fly Away Home
Matilda
The Fan
Alaska
Multiplicity
Mrs. Winterbourne
Race The Sun
From Dusk Till Dawn
Screamers
Sense & Sensibility
Dracula-Dead And Loving It
Never Talk To Strangers
Devil In A Blue Dress
Desperado
Mortal Kombat
The Net
First Knight
Judge Dredd
Johnny Mnemonic
Bad Boys
Hideaway
Legends Of The Fall
Immortal Beloved
Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein
Next Karate Kid
Blankman
City Slickers II: The Legend Of Curly’s Gold
Little Big League
Geronimo - An American Legend
In The Line Of Fire
Last Action Hero Jun/93

[JBL 4645]

With the above list I kinder see the same thing with Dolby 7.1 very few Dolby channel releases happening over the years.

I also see the same with bluray unless its new purpose mixed and not some crappy re-mix of a classic 6track mixes crated for 70mm.

[JBL 4645]

Found an interesting read about the scoring mix for “The Patriot” (2000)

SCORING "THE PATRIOT"
Jul 1, 2000 12:00 PM, Chris Michie

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_scoring_patriot/

For the film score, the producers were fortunate to secure the participation of two-time Oscar winner John Williams, whose many screen credits include original scores for the historical dramas Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List and Amistad. In fact, Williams has been nominated three dozen times since his first in 1967 for Valley of the Dolls, and hardly a year goes by without his name appearing on the Oscar ballots.

Orchestral scoring sessions took place in mid-May at the Sony Pictures Studios scoring stage in Culver City. To record and mix, Williams brought in his longtime studio collaborator Shawn Murphy, an independent engineer who has recorded more than 190 film scores over the past two decades. In consultation with the producers and music editor Ken Wannberg, Williams and Murphy decided to record the 7.1 and stereo CD mixes "live," a working method that requires considerable accuracy and decisiveness in the recording process.

"The vast majority of the recording I've done with John has been live mixed," Murphy notes. "Star Wars was about 95 percent live mixed. It works much better for [Williams] musically, and for me in terms of addressing any musical recording problems right on the spot."

"For orchestral sessions, it's fairly common to record the soundtrack CD at the scoring session," Murphy continues. "We'll add a little more space to the 2-track mix because a lot of times we keep it fairly dry for the picture, but on this sort of score there's no reason why the CD can't come straight off the console."

Though Murphy and Williams had agreed to deliver a 7.1 mix, a first for both of them, Murphy decided to monitor the sessions in 5.1. "My big problem with SDDS spreads in general is a lack of upward and downward compatibility," Murphy explains. "The 7.1 spread tends to sound poor when it combines downward to 5.1 and even worse when it goes to Lt-Rt for Dolby Stereo. And it doesn't make a good stereo for the CD." Monitoring his mixes in 5.1 provided Murphy with a reliable fallback position. "If there's any problem in the 7.1 spread, we can immediately go back to 5.1 and we know they work," he notes.

Despite the fact that almost all audio post-production is now done on digital workstations, Murphy usually records to analog. "John and I vastly prefer it to digital," he says. "So we try to commit one generation to analog before we send it into an editorial computer if we can-the one generation of analog patina seems to be a nice thing to put on the sound before it goes to the Pro Tools or the Sonic Solutions."

For his analog 7.1 master, Murphy routed the eight music channels plus pilot tone and timecode to a 15ips Studer 16-track, loaded with Quantegy 456 2-inch tape at a nonelevated alignment (200 nanoWebers/meter) and encoded in Dolby SR. Similarly, the stereo mix for CD went direct to a 11/42-inch format Studer, also 15 ips, Dolby SR. Digital safeties were committed to Genex 8-track MO and DAT formats.

To provide for remixes, two backup 24-track Studers were fed the 7.1 mix and timecode, plus various solo mics and additional section submixes.

"Any remixing that we might do is based on the recording we do on the session," Murphy explains. "But typically, we choose [a take] based on the live mix and leave it that way."

FORMERLY MGM The Sony scoring stage, basically unchanged since its heyday as the MGM soundstage, has been the site of hundreds of historic recordings. "The room is 93 feet wide and 66 feet deep, and about 28 feet at its highest point-it has a slightly peaked ceiling," says Murphy, pointing at the roofline, dimly discernible above the ceiling trusses and air conditioning ducts. Built in 1929 and with a volume of around 160,000 cubic feet, the Sony stage is considerably smaller than Abbey Road, which is roughly 250,000 cubic feet. "So it's smaller in volume, but it has a good sound," Murphy says, noting that the reverb time is relatively short, a little over a second. "Some of the other scoring stages in town are more [reverberant]," he continues. "I think that most people would say that this room is the nicest compromise of volume to reverb time to liveness to control that we have."

Murphy set up the large orchestra ("in the neighborhood of 95 players") in a standard configuration, with Williams' podium in front of the control room window, facing the projection screen. At Williams' request, the studio provided orchestra risers for the rear row of celli and basses, improving sight lines to the podium and increasing proximity to the room mics. "It gets a bit of air under the instrument and adds some resonance," Murphy says.

As primary sources for his 5-channel stereo mix, Murphy used the familiar Decca Tree microphone setup with "spreaders." Three omnidirectional Neumann M50s suspended about 10 feet above the conductor's position were flanked by a pair of Schoeps 222s with MK21 capsules, each situated about 15 feet wide of center. These primary mics were fed direct to the multitracks, augmented as necessary by a variety of spot and section mics, some of which were used only for reverb sends. Two omni mics located high in the corners of the room provided an overall orchestra ambience, which Murphy routed to the stereo surround channels.

Murphy's reverb setup included five channels of Lexicon 480 dedicated to the front channels, though returns were also routed to the surrounds at lower levels. As Murphy describes it, the orchestra presence in the surrounds is intended to be supportive. "It's not meant to call attention to itself-you wouldn't notice it unless it was shut off," he notes. As Murphy pointed out, the use of the surrounds in film scoring is restrained in comparison to 5.1 mixing for record, which usually assumes five comparable monitor speakers. "[In film], we use rolled-off surrounds, and we don't tend to put anything in the surrounds except distance mics or ambient material, unless there's a specific reason to," he explains. "Very occasionally there'll be an effect we want to sweep around into the surrounds-there'll be an instrument we want to put specifically in back. But that's not common, that doesn't happen very often."

LIVE MIXES AUTOMATED The Sony scoring stage console is a 72-input Neve VR dating from about 1997. "Prior to that they had a modified 8128, vintage 1984," Murphy says. "That was only a 56-input console, so the 72-input has helped, though we often bring a Martech sidecar in, which expands this board to 96 inputs. That's probably the number that a scoring stage needs to have nowadays." For The Patriot sessions, Murphy used about 54 inputs; Sony also provided a DDA monitor console that stage manager Mark Eshelman used to create headphone mixes for conductor, soloists and section leaders.

Murphy used the Neve's onboard Flying Faders automation on every take. "I like this automation, and it's unfortunate that, since Neve and Martinsound have parted ways, this automation doesn't come with Neve consoles anymore," he comments. Murphy used the Neve's preamps for solo and section mics, but routed the seven primary distant mics straight to tape via outboard preamps. The Decca Tree and wide-arrayed Schoeps mics were run through EAR tube preamps, while spot and solo mics were patched into Grace, Boulder and Avalon preamps; all were then multed to the Neve for the live 7.1 and 2-track mixes. Murphy's use of EQ was minimal: he used five channels of Avalon 2055 EQ on the five front mix buses (approximately +2 at 15 Hz, -1 at 400 Hz, +2 at 25 kHz) and dialed in console EQ on only three channels.

MONITORING Murphy monitored the LCR mix through his three Wilson Audio WATT VI monitors, an evolution from the WATT I systems he began using in 1987. "In the SDDS matrix, the LE and RE signals are assigned 75/25 to left/center and right/center in the 5.1 crashdown," he explains. "The monitor panel in the VR desk does not have this capability, so I merely superimposed the LE and RE signals on the left and right monitor channels." Powered by Krell KSA-250 amplifiers through Transparent Audio Cables, the Wilsons were supplemented by Sunfire subwoofers for the LFE channel (generally referred to as "boom"), which had been aligned to 91 dBC. As Murphy notes, "the 0.1 channel is rarely calibrated, so you never really know how it's going to sound in the theater." The stereo surround mix was distributed through JBL bipole speakers mounted high on the side walls of the relatively large control room, but as Murphy had predicted, it was hard to hear if they were on.

Scoring The Patriot took about two weeks, with 13 three-hour sessions scheduled for recording the score and a further two for source music. Throughout the afternoon session that Mix attended, Williams and Murphy repeated much the same process for each cue. After some rehearsal, during which Murphy perfected balances and any necessary fader moves, all four analog tape machines were put into record. As soon as Murphy felt he had a representative performance on tape, Williams and Murphy listened to playback, discussed musical or engineering adjustments, and re-recorded each cue until satisfied.

Working with a conductor who decides on a master "then and there" is unusual, notes Murphy. "It's unusual in terms of being that definite about what you want and having an orchestration that's that complete. I've always thought that if you can avoid the generation loss, if you can avoid the technical elements of remixing and just do it live, that's the best."

Having worked together on scores for about 18 pictures and almost as many album projects, Murphy and Williams are a comfortable and efficient studio team. At the end of the session, as players left the studio and the crowded control room emptied, Williams and Murphy prepared for a playback session to decide or confirm each cue's master take. Selected 7.1 master takes were then loaded into a Sonic Solutions system, ready for Ken Wannberg to take to the final mix at the Cary Grant Theatre.

[JBL 4645]

One of the things I always notice is footsteps the footstep creates such a believable sound of incredibleness.

This not only happened two days ago its something I’ve been aware of on my travels on shopping days.

The footstep moves from the front of the bus after the passenger as paid. The footsteps start to move forwards as I’m facing forwards. The footsteps walked pass me at slightly higher level not much just a slight bit higher as the distant footsteps.

Then the footsteps walk past me and that is the golden plus! They move in several channels if there was such thing for Dolby 5.1 7.1 or something beyond Dolby 16channles.

What would be the required true amount of channels?

In Dolby 5.1 or 5 channel since the .1 is not applicable here. You’d only get two channels left rear to left front or left rear to centre which depends on how it was mixed.

In-between mix there would be phantom centre that will hover in foggy like sound to the listeners ears for brief less than 1 second. That’s not good enough.

Now you can do the ole trick of applying a Dolby pro-logic decoder in-between to get the footsteps to have three sound locations but there is one huge problem!

Deepening on where the camera is looking if its shot showing people getting onto a bus the camera would be at eye-level so the footsteps have to sound below as that is where the sound is heard not above or to the sides of the listener.

So how many and this is the question? because each footstep would make a discrete sound in different locations on the bus!

Should there be 9 channel below surround or 12 channel because cinemas are very wide and long so maybe 42 channel, error…! Now Dolby 16 has ran out of channels of billability!!

I don’t think cinema could ever reach realism on the grounds that we hear ourselves. Its only a different listening experience is what we get. That is not how it sounds in the real world.

Placing lots of surrounds next to each other or spaced apart along the sidewall/back wall and overhead and below will fool the ear into believing for short while. But when comparing real footsteps walking up and down past you several times you’ll hear that there is huge discrete difference between each footstep, over the random footstep sounds played over a large array of surrounds set beneath the cinema seats.

I don’t think cinema will get a new sound format from Dolby until end of this decade at the moment 16channles is still pending and Dolby 7.1, 8channel just about it for the meantime. It hasn’t come far since SDDS8 in 18 years.



Now if the floor tiles in my living room was discrete 294 channels of below surround that would easily surpass Dolby 16. There would be discrete sound movement of footsteps to Tie-fighters and X-Wings flying below in outer space scenes.

I’d think hundreds of speakers would be needed literally to create something that is near believable.

It would never be able to reach real world SPL db levels that can go well past our hearing threshold level unless your crazy enough to stand near to jet fighter without ear plugs and ear defends, otherwise we normal hear these things many meters away for our own hearing safety.

Guns and explosions LOL will never sound real no matter what.


Cinema seems to add on a few extra discrete channels once ever 10 years or so. Well we’re not getting any younger.

I don’t see Dolby 16channel happening well into the 2049 maybe? I see them adding on 2 more before the end of this decade 9.1 2019 LOL 2029 Dolby 11.1 / 2039 Dolby 13.1 / 2049 Dolby 15.1 16channles!

[JBL 4645]

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/Dolby_Surround_71_Whitepaper.pdf

The Dolby wiring diagram for its surround formats for Dolby-EX in cinema the processor can handle up to 4 matrix outputs not 3 thou 3 seems to be the norm at (extracting the centre phantom from left and right surround) and the extra surround output has only been used once for We Were Soldiers (2002).

Too bad mixes stopped there and didn’t continue to push it forwards a bit further as well as getting more cinemas installed with ceiling surrounds.

Note: four green LED on the upper right of the Dolby SA-10 extra is the rear surround in Dolby stereo pro-logic optical operation.

[JBL 4645]

Hmm, just another idea what Dolby should do with its 16channels?

What if the stage speakers have an extra pair per LCR stacked side by side. Picture a JBL 4675-A with another one placed right next it but tight and another one.


1) Left music
2) Left effects
3) Left dialogue panning

4) Centre music
5) Centre effects
6) Centre dialogue panning

7) Right music
8) Right effects
9) Right dialogue panning

That’s 9 channels so far!

10) LFE.1 subs to extend below stage speakers the entire width of the screen no matter what size!

That’s now 10 used up!

11) Left sidewall surround

12) Right sidewall surround

13) Left rear surround

14) Right rear surround

15) Overheard mono surround

16) Below mono surround

Total 16 channels

Now with the LCR fronts music can play soft or loud without worries about adding compression so effects can play louder effects can play on their own dedicated channel as dialogue can play freely and louder than before or softer free from distortion.

I think that’s better than my other idea for Dolby 16channels or 15.1 LOL



The problem will be centre because any music coming from the centre will sound like its shifted to one side of the centre the same with effects. Blending some portions of the bass-mid into LF stage channels 4 and 6 would keep the sound uniform I guess.

The music and effects would have to be shared between HF channels 4 and 6 by blending the music and effects into each from the decoder otherwise directional effects will sound like they’re coming slight to one side of the centre rather than a normal single centre where something has to give in loudness so why not share it the HF horns of today have high range over yesterday’s HF horns music should be a problem.

[JBL 4645]

Okay I gave it some more thought about the effects/music channel in the centre what if its speared out over a few extra stage channels. Now the problem here will be the centre like phantom sound image between music/effects as it would sound like centre mono until it pans smoothly over to the far left or right.

I’m not sure how this would sound if sat front and centre, when effects start panning over the screen as they shift away centre due to large gap, still it’s only an idea.

[JBL 4645]

Below surround and overhead surround hasn’t been market well with Dolby pushing 7.1 it seems quiet a waste of channels being added to stereo rear when those two channels could have been used for below and overhead discrete surround, thus starting on filling in the missing gaps.

The sidewall surrounds in common homes work well when integrated with common surround playing on the rear wall just as it would be in the cinema. Centre back surround Dolby pro-logic can still work by extracting the (centre phantom signal from the stereo pair) and repositioning the sound directly behind the listeners.

The matrix approach of panning sounds in anti-phase onto the stereo surrounds so that Dolby pro-logic decoder can extract the signal from within the rear (not the centre back as common mislead in home cinema magazines) where the editor wants you to belaive its only a 3channel decoding its not its 4 channels in the same way as Dolby stereo works for 4.2.4 matrix optical soundtracks only its been used for the stereo surrounds on one reported film We Where Soldiers (2002) http://www.smartdevicesinc.com/pdf/sonic_boom.pdf

I think Dolby didn’t see it being practical to use in the home since it would require lots of loudspeakers fitted into the ceiling. Well some have families and miserable grumpy wife so not worth getting devoice, over it.

Installing loudspeakers into the ceiling or even attaching them to the ceiling is easy. It’s not so easy when it comes to floor? The loudspeakers for the below surround, it’s best to keep with the same brand model for voicing.

Concrete floors present a huge challenge and I think very few would start taking a road jack hammer to their floor!

Wooden floors well that might be just a bit easy but still there is an issue with below loudspeakers.

People tend to be messy no mater how clear we think we are all times of dirty and dust will full into the loudspeaker over coarse of few days, never-mind a few years, by which time the loudspeaker will so ruined and needing replacement along with rest of the surrounds to keep voicing the same.

If fitted in the floor it would need metal grill placed over it reinforced to take the weight of a fully grown man or woman?

The below surround can be placed underneath the seating but what type of seating?

Sofas will only muffle the sound so you can’t place it underneath sofa highs will be lost and midrange muffled and lows well not so much I guess depending on the level?

Underneath real cinema seats as they are fairly open all-around they would have to be attached securely so they don’t have any tendency to get moved around by feet or other, as this would mess the sound up after it’s been EQ balanced.

The grey arrears marked above and below and placed in-between the rest of the surrounds indicates roughly where the overhead and below surrounds should be located in an ideal situation, (then again nothing is ideal for most homes) each have their own difficulties and problem solving.

So we have 11 channels for the surrounds now working
1) Upper corner discrete surround array left channel
2) Middle discrete surround array left channel
3) Lower corner discrete surround array left channel

4) Below discrete surround array mono
5) Overhead discrete surround array mono

6) Centre back upper corner discrete surround array
7) Centre back discrete surround array
8) Centre back lower corner discrete surround array

9) Upper corner discrete surround array right channel
10) Middle discrete surround array right channel
11) Lower corner discrete surround array right channel

Listening to Sooty playing with tissue on the floor, the sound doesn’t come from anywhere else except from the floor surface in stereo.

Maybe stereo overhead and stereo below so that now brings it to 13 not including LCR/LFE.1 which makes 17channles and well exceeds Dolby 16 by at least 1 channel.

The sound rustles around the floor along with his paws running chasing after the tissue as he knocks it around thinking the tissue is alive? Cats are funny creatures.:) . So, listening to my cat Sooty does inspire below surround as my cat is at lower elevation than me.

If and when this application will be used for home use let-along cinema I just don’t see it happening within the next 8 years. If it does go forward it will still offer centre phantom between the stereo pairs and lots more listening experimentation fun to play with.

[JBL 4645]

There’s something that’s never occurred to me before? Who says the rear stereo extra surrounds in Dolby 7.1 has to go on the rear wall?

Since it’s a format that I rarely play on the SONY BDP-S550 bluray player, I guess I can get another cluster of JBL control 1 and finish off the overheard surround and place a few underneath the cinema seats?

I know some of the sound cues won’t match the sidewall but its worth a listening experiment to see how involving it is?

I can picture some of the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 STAR TREK re-mixes with U.S.S. Enterprise in STAR TREK II panning from underneath then the sound shifting panning to right sidewall as it approaches the U.S.S. Reliant

The left channel placed overhead with the U.S.S. Excelsior in STAR TREK III has it pans from rear left to sidewall left appearing overhead then shifting panning slightly downwards to left sidewall surround arrays.

Yeah that will sound very confusing!


Another thing that came to mind in some of the helicopter sequences in We Where Soldiers (2002) some of the sounds should come from below as they head downwards not just aiming for the centre back surround but pitching a bit lower towards the floor area as if you where standing freely in midair with helicopters passing around you and over and below and though you, without hurting you, I’d say the sound would be somewhat different.

I was thinking of crossover and some low pass filtering make channel for below using the overhead passed into crossover while the overhead plays as it is, the below surround can have different filtering

I wonder what would happen if I placed another Dolby pro-logic decoder between the rear matrix and the centre back. Would it get so confused and produce random sound noise?

[JBL 4645]

Re-listening to Mission To Mars (2000) on region2 DVD


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissionToMarsDVDTHX.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/DolbyEXlogo.jpg


Dialogue starts of by being panned from left front over to the centre channel then passes over to the right front channel as the camera starts to move steadily around the crewmembers.

Note: the Mickey Mouse :D image as the image fades the two large mouse ears Mars to right and the radar to the left with module in the middle.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD12imag.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD22imag.jpg

By now [Armin Mueller-Stahl] who plays Ramier Beck, dialogue has panned from LCR fronts to the right-sidewall-surround speaker arrays. There is still some faint echo dialogue on left and right fronts but that will go mute very soon, only leaving ambient air ventilation sound and Foley effects with occasional crewmember dialogue.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD32imag.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD42imag.jpg

By the time he says “frankly, we are stumped” it has arrived to the centre back surround arrays where it slowly starts to shift to left-sidewall-surround arrays.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD52imag.jpg

As Woody, listens to Ramier Beck he turns towards his wife, while Beck’s dialogue continues to circle the room behind.


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD62imag.jpg

With Ramier Beck voice now heard in centre front that was quite an impressive moment done with atmospheric ambient effects and dialogue.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MissiontoMarswithsubtitlesDVD13.jpg