Home Theatre systems?

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

I have a question about HT systems. Of what would a basic system consist? Would there be main speakers, rear speakers, and a side-fill for right and left? How about a center channel speaker? Necessary, or not?

Once I get my 4333's up and running, I'd like to play around with adding more to my system. Our Harman/Kardon is setup with separate amps for the rears, center, and side-fill stuff, and I believe they are all about 45WPC. Enough?

I have quite a few JBL 12 transducers, having play music for almost 30 years, and I was wondering if, say, a pair of 2130's with, or without a tweeter, in smallish boxes, would be good side-fill speakers? They are extended range, even without the tweeter.

I also have a pair of Altec 902-16HF drivers (basically a regular 902-16, but without the horn that was added to make it a "HF"). Those, with a small horn and JBL 12" woofer, could be the rear speakers.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions? We mainly listen to music on our system, but do like to run movies through it, when we take the time to watch such entertainments. Thanks for any suggestions you can offer. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[toddalin]

Remember the "pod race?"

Think of how much less spectacular it would be if you didn't hear the turbines spooling up all around you. You've got to have some high frequency back there for those effects.

Furthermore, when you do get in to surround music, you want your rear speakers to have a similar response as your fronts. While the sub can help with the rear's lows, your highs will sound muffled in surround pans and even discreet instruments without a tweeter.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Todd,

Many thanks for your comments, as always! Upon reflection, I do think you bring up a very valid point, and one I'll keep in mind, when I finally get this project underway. I'm not sure how many large cabinets can fit into our listening/viewing environment, as our room is big, but not "huge". Plus, I want Sweet Bride to be happy with whatever we end up doing, and we'll have to see how it turns out, as we go along, adding things as we go! ;):)

Yes, that pod race, which we watched at your place, was thrilling, indeed!!:bouncy::bouncy: As I wrote back when we had listened to your fantastic system, I'm not sure our's will ever be up to the coverage of your's. But, I'm pretty sure that, no matter how it turns out, we're going to be very happy with it. All the best to you and Linda, and we wish we were going to be here to come visit during your open house! Sounds like a real blast and quite a bit of fun!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[SEAWOLF97]

A good center is moe importand than the sides/rears/surrounds. Dialogue and much sound comes from center...dont skimp there.

[BMWCCA]

I'm thinking of using L7 in the front, L5 in the rear, L1 for side fill, and two L20Ts butt-to-butt as centers——mostly since that's what I own. Though I'm waiting for the price of HT pre-amps to come down to a reasonable price. I'm not interested in using an off-shore integrated amp since I have eight Crown amps already. Does this make sense? Any suggestions? I've never set up a HT. I'm only a two-channel guy but thought I'd try HT for my kids. :D

[SEAWOLF97]

I'm thinking of using L7 in the front, L5 in the rear, L1 for side fill, and two L20Ts butt-to-butt as centers——mostly since that's what I own. Though I'm waiting for the price of HT pre-amps to come down to a reasonable price. I'm not interested in using an off-shore integrated amp since I have eight Crown amps already. Does this make sense? Any suggestions? I've never set up a HT. I'm only a two-channel guy but thought I'd try HT for my kids. :D

OK, but......L1 side really isnt needed. center is MONO, 2 L20's may drop to an impediance mismatch. rears/surrounds are overrated, many (not all) flix have little to NO content there.

[toddalin]

rears/surrounds are overrated, many (not all) flix have little to NO content there.

Can't agree with that..., but even if it were true, why sell yourself short in the rear when there are so many nice SACD/DVD-Audio disks that can come with the HT territory. ;)

[Tom Brennan]

A good center is moe importand than the sides/rears/surrounds. Dialogue and much sound comes from center...dont skimp there.

Boy, I strongly disagree with that. I think that using good side speakers (left and right fronts I mean, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing) with the center channel in phantom mode works fine. In my setup the stereo image across the front is wide and properly placed side to side without a center speaker and clarity is first rate.

That said, I'd rather listen to movies mono with a single really good speaker than have a surround system with mediocre speakers.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/nineteens020.jpg

[hjames]

I'm thinking of using L7 in the front, L5 in the rear, L1 for side fill, and two L20Ts butt-to-butt as centers——mostly since that's what I own. Though I'm waiting for the price of HT pre-amps to come down to a reasonable price. I'm not interested in using an off-shore integrated amp since I have eight Crown amps already. Does this make sense? Any suggestions? I've never set up a HT. I'm only a two-channel guy but thought I'd try HT for my kids. :D

First Phil, what are you planning to setup?
A 5.1 system or a 7.1 system? Or maybe 5.0 mode? Tho your L7s don't need a sub for music, you'll no doubt appreciate a sub for films!
You WILL need a center in films/TV for dialog ...
I run 5.1 in my system these days - 7.1 didn't add enough fill to make it worthwhile for me ...
in 5.1 I run the rears off the side signal. But I what some folks are calling "sides" I think they mean the front L/R speakers ...

I think otherwise - you've already got all the pieces to try it so there's nothing really to loose.

[BMWCCA]

I guess I was thinking 7.1 without the sub (7.0?), but if there's little to be gained by it perhaps 5.1 (5.0) is enough. I'm open to suggestions!

We're so used to watching DVDs with just the 030's (D130, 075) and actually enjoy the bass response (yeah, it's all in what you get used to, apparently), that I don't think a sub is worth the trouble since I don't already own one. And we're really two-channel people. The only surround-sound systems I've heard around here are done with those little setups in the box. Two 030's kick butt compared to those. I think Tom figured that one out already. But it seems a shame not to try with the L1, L5, and L7 already in the house.

Thanks.

[hjames]

I guess I was thinking 7.1 without the sub (7.0?), but if there's little to be gained by it perhaps 5.1 (5.0) is enough. I'm open to suggestions!

We're so used to watching DVDs with just the 030's (D130, 075) and actually enjoy the bass response (yeah, it's all in what you get used to, apparently), that I don't think a sub is worth the trouble since I don't already own one. And we're really two-channel people. The only surround-sound systems I've heard around here are done with those little setups in the box. Two 030's kick butt compared to those. I think Tom figured that one out already. But it seems a shame not to try with the L1, L5, and L7 already in the house.

Thanks.

Yeah, but - how big is your room - what kind of dimensions?
Also, what are you going to use to get the multichannel/surround outs?
before you feed the Crown amps ...:)

[BMWCCA]

Current room is a small 22x16. That's why the two-channel fills it so well. The larger room HT setup, as I mentioned, will use a HT pre-amp once I deem them to have reached the affordable range. And that's affordable for someone paying two (and soon three) college tuitions! I'd like not to waste time or money on a receiver but I might try one just for the experimentation value as long as it had pre-outs. More conjecture at this point than a high priority! It takes a long while to drag a Luddite into the future!

[Titanium Dome]

In my old place a few years back, we had an HT system set up in room that was 16x20. At first, it was L7 (LF & RF), LX300 (LS & RS) and a home-brewed center with JBL components. Then the LX300s were replaced by L5s, Then I added another pair of L7s, and put an L3 in place as the center for a 7.0 system (no sub).

Eventually I added a JBL LE120H-1-based sub, and despite the fact that there were already four 12" woofers in the room, the sub make quite a difference.

At high volume, this L Series system shook everything in the room and was definitely too much, but at reasonable volumes, it was a delight and brought many things to light that were not evident in the mismatches of the system in its infancy. L Series speakers are not the ideal HT set as they were not designed with HT in mind, but they will do a very representative job of what a good HT can deliver, even 7.1 with the right pre/pro or receiver--something with Logic7. PLIIx, DD EX, or DTS ES.

[JBL 4645]

A good center is moe importand than the sides/rears/surrounds. Dialogue and much sound comes from center...dont skimp there.

Unless its one of many rare films that has crazy dialogue panning moving from left to centre or centre to left and centre to right with excellent timbre matching.

But that doesn’t make it so if "Luke Skywalker’s" "lightsaber" is heard as dull whizzing sparkle when it’s started up just moments after been thrown from the speeder-bike "Return of the Jedi" (1983-1993-1997-2004) and the gets ready for attack with its sparkling with transparency from centre to right. So sound effects are just as critical to film sound art.


Boy, I strongly disagree with that. I think that using good side speakers (left and right fronts I mean, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing) with the center channel in phantom mode works fine. In my setup the stereo image across the front is wide and properly placed side to side without a center speaker and clarity is first rate.

That said, I'd rather listen to movies mono with a single really good speaker than have a surround system with mediocre speakers.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/nineteens020.jpg

I recognize that film that’s “South Pacific” and that what I’m talking about this as crazy use of dialogue panning Ping-Pong over the LCR, wonderful film and musical tracks use it a lot.

[Tom Brennan]

I recognize that film that’s “South Pacific” and that what I’m talking about this as crazy use of dialogue panning Ping-Pong over the LCR, wonderful film and musical tracks use it a lot.

Yeah, lots of multi-track pictures from the 50s and early 60s had the voice following the actor's on screen position, this is especially noticeable in Fox pictures like Demetrius and the Gladiators and Cleopatra.

One of the beefs some had with the DVD of My Fair Lady is that the sound was remixed to the modern style of placing dialogue in the center.

[SEAWOLF97]

[quote=Tom Brennan;214939]the center channel in phantom mode works fine. [/quotefrom SR - tech Q&A

[Tom Brennan]

Well SW I don't find that opinion you posted to be true in my case. One can sit quite a bit off center and still hear sounds anchored correctly in the stereo spread. Indeed, when as far off center as anyone will be.

And I have used center speakers so when I say the system isn't suffering not using one my opinion is well informed.

[JBL 4645]

Yeah, lots of multi-track pictures from the 50s and early 60s had the voice following the actor's on screen position, this is especially noticeable in Fox pictures like Demetrius and the Gladiators and Cleopatra.

One of the beefs some had with the DVD of My Fair Lady is that the sound was remixed to the modern style of placing dialogue in the center.


Dead wrong you must be thinking of, ”2001 A Space Odyssey” that was really messed up for DVD and no doubt the perfect so called poor format Bluray.

The mix on "My Fair Lady" is smashing lots of dialogue moving between and in and out over the LCR. It’s original propose was to have dialogue moving over the five-screen fronts with one single monaural surround channel.

This is discussed in the audio commentary on chapters 23 and 24 with restoration team Robert A. Harris and James Katz, mostly by (Robert A. Harris) who sets the record straight.

The soundtrack is perceived in the original form except its got split-surrounds so you lose stage channels 2 and 4 which had some parts of the dialogue moving from centre to left-centre and centre to right-centre and right and so forth.

You can try this in the home with a few extra Dolby pro-logic decoders and matching five-JBL speakers up front a bit re-plugging is involved but you, what get you’re hands real dirty, just a bit of re-plugging to do that’s all.

All the above has to be connected to the main Dolby or dts doesn’t really matter which just as long as its connected to the main AVR or AVP.

This idea was published in (widescreen review magazine) back around (2000-2001) the diagram on the internet is lost only text remains. Fortunate enough I brought the magazine around the same time. I’ll have to fish it out and follow the diagram and post it up, it’s real-easy to follow, and it does work!

[Tom Brennan]

Dead wrong you must be thinking of, ”2001 A Space Odyssey” that was really messed up for DVD and no doubt the perfect so called poor format Bluray.

The mix on "My Fair Lady" is smashing lots of dialogue moving between and in and out over the LCR. It’s original propose was to have dialogue moving over the five-screen fronts with one single monaural surround channel.


No I'm not "dead wrong". I know exactly what I'm talking about. Regardless of the merits of the My Fair Lady sound mix I remember people having problems with it. I'm not a liar and I'm not deluded. Maybe the people who had beefs with the mix were deluded. I took no stand on it myself.

[JBL 4645]

No I'm not "dead wrong". I know exactly what I'm talking about. Regardless of the merits of the My Fair Lady sound mix I remember people having problems with it. I'm not a liar and I'm not deluded. Maybe the people who had beefs with the mix were deluded. I took no stand on it myself.

Well can you provide a picture A DVD cover of the version of “2001:A Space Odyssey” as there are 2 or 3 versions available on DVD.

[hjames]

Interesting thing, but I don't WANT to have to have 5 speakers and associated electronics across the front, just for that one special movie.
I'm for a more standardized approach - 5.1 will do just fine, thanks!

Heck, an awful lot of movies I've been renting don't even do 5.1 ...!

(And for most music, 2 channel stereo is a great approach.)





The mix on "My Fair Lady" is smashing lots of dialogue moving between and in and out over the LCR. It’s original propose was to have dialogue moving over the five-screen fronts with one single monaural surround channel.

You can try this in the home with a few extra Dolby pro-logic decoders and matching five-JBL speakers up front a bit re-plugging is involved but you, what get you’re hands real dirty, just a bit of re-plugging to do that’s all.

[JBL 4645]

Interesting thing, but I don't WANT to have to have 5 speakers and associated electronics across the front, just for that one special movie.
I'm for a more standardized approach - 5.1 will do just fine, thanks!

Heck, an awful lot of movies I've been renting don't even do 5.1 ...!

(And for most music, 2 channel stereo is a great approach.)

Didn’t you know that “5.1” is form of brainwashing and don’t tell they got to you.:D LOL you should really listen to six-track Dolby or dts mix more rather the primary five channels and how they work and what you can toy around with in-between those channels.

[hjames]

Didn’t you know that “5.1” is form of brainwashing and don’t tell they got to you.:D LOL you should really listen to six-track Dolby or dts mix more rather the primary five channels and how they work and what you can toy around with in-between those channels.

Actually, I don't need a paranoid rant about multichannel sound - my gear will do 7.1 stuff but 5.2 is working for me ... once I replace that single center ... and no, I don't want to add a rack-full of cheap processors and downgrade my fidelity with all that junk. I use a Harman Kardon AVR 345
as the control center and it does all that stuff. Between that and my current JVC DVD player, it does various dolby digital and DTS modes, plus DivX and such for all my offline captures.

I've got that Oppo 981HD upconverting DVD player on the way - with it I can feed video direct to the HDMI port in my TV - should be quite the visual improvement for all my standard discs.

Got the two L20ts as rear surround, not full sonic impact of course, but gives a nice ambience to most films.
With the M&K 12in on the left side, and the B380 (15) on the right side, we do get quite nice sub channel for films.

Yeah, I should have 3 4341s across the front, probably run 5 of them total,
but I just don't see that happening anytime soon - least not with our current budget and savings.

Besides, the room is only 14 x 18 - kind of crazy packing this much stuff in there as it is ...!

[Audiobeer]

I'm with Heather. I had the 7.1 setup with the additional 2 speakers up front the Yamaha reciever provides. In retrospect I would never have gone all out like that. I would do a 5.1 with speakers that are matched, but full range. In my opinion that is the most important part of the setup......matching the speakers, keeping all things equal and a good sub.

[Tom Brennan]

Well can you provide a picture A DVD cover of the version of “2001:A Space Odyssey” as there are 2 or 3 versions available on DVD.




No I can't, I throw the DVD boxes away. Why do you ask?

I recently bought the latest SD-DVD version of 2001, is there something remarkable about the mix?

[toddalin]

I'm with Heather. I had the 7.1 setup with the additional 2 speakers up front the Yamaha reciever provides. In retrospect I would never have gone all out like that. I would do a 5.1 with speakers that are matched, but full range. In my opinion that is the most important part of the setup......matching the speakers, keeping all things equal and a good sub.

The Yamaha "7.1" of which you speak with the two additional front speakers is not the same as 7.1 Dolby that uses two "side surrounds" and two "rear surrounds."

The additional front Yamaha speakers are for added ambience and are not encoded into any Dolby processor. Yes you can add their effect to the Dolby track, but Dolby did not encode these channels.

If you want a Yamaha to do the 7.1 Dolby, you need their "9.1" unit that includes all the side/rear surrounds AND the front ambience channels. Mine does this (RX-Z9), but I still only run the two rear surrounds, along with the two front ambience speakers, LCR, two subs, and for that "special movie," bass shakers in the couch.

[Tom Brennan]

I especially like 7.1 sound for the scene in Citizen Kane where Orson Welles outruns the explosion.

[JBL 4645]

No I can't, I throw the DVD boxes away. Why do you ask?

I recently bought the latest SD-DVD version of 2001, is there something remarkable about the mix?

Well a few years ago I heard from rumour control that this version has all the crazy wild dialogue panning and that the later version is the cowed up abomination. Its region 1 DVD so track it down because I wouldn’t mind that version, I’m wondering if it’s the same version that was used for the Dolby digital AC-3 laserdisc.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/8878/2001.jpg

Hmm same jacket design as the laserdisc versions I have only mine is a Dolby surround version produced early 1990’s.

Note: the two versions have the same art-work expect one was produced many years later and look for the Dolby digital sign. And I’m right you’ve got the same DVD naff version as I have but, track down the first region 1 DVD you’ll be happier with that.

http://www.lddb.com/cover/ld/07701-07800/07716.jpg

[JBL 4645]

“Here you are, sir. Main level please.” Now with the original mix this dialogue would be heard from the left channel not the centre channel, the video capture here is taken from the region 2 DVD first edition produced for the 2001 realise.


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/2001aspaceodysseyhereyouaresiremian.jpg

[hjames]

I've noticed that on many films I have a choice between Dolby Digital and DTS. Sometimes the Dolby is 2 channel and the DTS is 5.1, sometimes both are 5.1, but it seems pretty consistent that DTS is the more enjoyable sound, and the DD sounds flatter and duller?
I'm sure there may be exceptions, but that seems to be the case on a great MANY films.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound#Low_Frequency_Effects_.28LFE.29_cha nnel)

[Tom Brennan]

4645----I have 2001 on the new DVD and an older one. I might still have the LD around too. Maybe I'll give a listen, being a retired old bugger I've little else to do.

[JBL 4645]

4645----I have 2001 on the new DVD and an older one. I might still have the LD around too. Maybe I'll give a listen, being a retired old bugger I've little else to do.

LOL I’m right and you’ve just got mixed up, with the different versions that’s all.

[hjames]

I've noticed that on many films I have a choice between Dolby Digital and DTS. Sometimes the Dolby is 2 channel and the DTS is 5.1, sometimes both are 5.1, but it seems pretty consistent that DTS is the more enjoyable sound, and the DD sounds flatter and duller?
I'm sure there may be exceptions, but that seems to be the case on a great MANY films.


AHA! I was reading wikipedia on Surround sound and found this:
DTS uses a higher data rate than Dolby Digital, so DTS can achieve higher fidelity.

See this article ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound#Low_Frequency_Effects_.28LFE.29_cha nnel

[toddalin]

I've noticed that on many films I have a choice between Dolby Digital and DTS. Sometimes the Dolby is 2 channel and the DTS is 5.1, sometimes both are 5.1, but it seems pretty consistent that DTS is the more enjoyable sound, and the DD sounds flatter and duller?
I'm sure there may be exceptions, but that seems to be the case on a great MANY films.

Heather, I'm totally with you on this and if ANY disk includes both formats, I've ALWAYS preferred the DTS track. The DTS also seems to have a more dynamic subwoofer channel.

[hjames]

Heather, I'm totally with you on this and if ANY disk includes both formats, I've ALWAYS preferred the DTS track. The DTS also seems to have a more dynamic subwoofer channel.

Yeah, we've had some films lately where the default is Dolby Digital stereo, and you have to go into setup to select either Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1

[toddalin]

Yeah, we've had some films lately where the default is Dolby Digital stereo, and you have to go into setup to select either Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1

On my Yamaha RX-Z9 this is selected in the receiver's menu where you set a heirachy for the input format. Seems to me that if the track is there, mine defaults to it due to the way I set up the menu. :blink:

[hjames]

On my Yamaha RX-Z9 this is selected in the receiver's menu where you set a heirachy for the input format. Seems to me that if the track is there, mine defaults to it due to the way I set up the menu. :blink:

Okay, on our (considerably lower-priced) HK AVR receiver, it auto-switches modes (DTS/Dolby, etc) depending on what is being output from the DVD player. Its a nice but cheap JVC unit. I think there is a limited amount of info sent across on the optical link. If memory serves, its PCM/stream mode.

But maybe it will be different with the Oppo player thats on the way.

[Tom Brennan]

LOL I’m right and you’ve just got mixed up, with the different versions that’s all.

Mixed up about what? I ventured no opinons on 2001, you did. Now I'm mixed up? What in the Sam Hill.......

[toddalin]

Okay, on our (considerably lower-priced) HK AVR receiver, it auto-switches modes (DTS/Dolby, etc) depending on what is being output from the DVD player. Its a nice but cheap JVC unit. I think there is a limited amount of info sent across on the optical link. If memory serves, its PCM/stream mode.

But maybe it will be different with the Oppo player thats on the way.


Ahhh! Thought from your signiture, I thought that you were using a Yamaha CR2040 for HT. ;)

[BMWCCA]

What in the Sam Hill.......Probably just a language barrier issue! ;)

[hjames]

Ahhh! Thought from your signature, I thought that you were using a Yamaha CR2040 for HT. ;)

Nah, the Yamaha CR-2040 is a non-remote, 1976 era high power stereo receiver - we use that for music and radio upstairs. (currently tied to an HK 5 disc changer)

The Cinema system downstairs is an HK 435 receiver - tho I feed LF & RF preamp outs into the Ashly for the biamped 4341s

[JBL 4645]

Mixed up about what? I ventured no opinons on 2001, you did. Now I'm mixed up? What in the Sam Hill.......

LOL I’m wicked aren’t I. :D It’s no wind up, listen to one partially scene then play the other version and so and note the differences. By the way, who in hell, Sam Hill? :D