2420 vs 2445?

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

I am wondering what your thoughts are on using 1" drivers, VS 2", for home stereo reproduction? I have a pair of 2420's which I have used in systems before, and they work very well. I have been thinking about buying some 2" 2445's, and wonder how the two will compare, sound-wise? This morning, I was perusing some threads here on LHF, and found a comment that nobody was using the large 2" drivers anymore. Is that true, and if so, why not? (Surely, SOMEbody is using such drivers!) One thing to consider, is that I never crossover horn/driver combinations to their lowest recommended crossover point, as I've found that crossing them higher, makes them sound better, and last longer, FWIW. Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Paul D]

I did a comparison of the le85 to the 2441 and preffered the le85. I was thinking this may be an improvement for my L300's and I got the 2441's for cheap. My room is 12' x 22' which is kind of small for 2" drivers I was told. I was using the 2312 horn with H91 lenses for the le85's and the large defraction lense combination (I beleive this is the 2395 if my memory serves me correct).

One of the things I noticed was that the le85 blended much better with the 077. I was triamping the system and tried different crossover frequencies but could not get the 2" combination to sound the way I wanted it to. I finally sold the bigger combo and stuck with the le85's.

This is only my opinion but for my ears, the 1" drivers are smoother and are a better match for 077's in my size room. This may not be the case in larger rooms where the extra kick of the 2" drivers would be needed.

[Beowulf57]

I would also recommend the LE85/2420 for a smoother transition when mated with the 077/2405H. If you check the spec sheets here: http://www2.jblpro.com/products/vintage/, you can see that the 2420 is cleaner above 10KHz than the 2445J. The 2441 looks not too bad and the 2440 dies above 10KHz. With an 8KHz crossover for the 077, I would expect one would like a clean response out to an octave above.

[Rolf]

For some time ago I also considered changing from 2420 to 244x in my 4343's (B). The recommendation from those more learned than I was: NO ... don't.

The reason for my thought was that in one of my earlier JBL's (Paragon) used that driver.

So I agree with Paul D and Beowolf57

[Mr. Widget]

You're all wrong. :D

Seriously,... you are all wrong.
It is quite possible that in your personal experience you were not able to get a large format driver and it's horn to work in your system, but there is no inherent reason why the larger driver with the correct horn can be used in any room of any size and be made to mate as seamlessly with a tweeter as the LE85/2420 does.

The benefit of the large driver is that it has far lower distortion than the smaller drivers and when mated to the correct horn will play down below 1000Hz far better than the 1" drivers do. In a properly set up application the 2440, 2441, 2445 etc. will have a less fatiguing sound and with the correct horn have significantly less midrange honk. (That's the technical term. ;))


Widget

BTW: There are many people still using large format drivers. Maybe we aren't hearing from them because their systems are working so well they are too busy enjoying them to post here. :D

[vernb]

You're all wrong. :D

Seriously,... you are all wrong.
It is quite possible that in your personal experience you were not able to get a large format driver and it's horn to work in your system, but there is no inherent reason why the larger driver with the correct horn can be used in any room of any size and be made to mate as seamlessly with a tweeter as the LE85/2420 does.

The benefit of the large driver is that it has far lower distortion than the smaller drivers and when mated to the correct horn will play down below 1000Hz far better than the 1" drivers do. In a properly set up application the 2440, 2441, 2445 etc. will have a less fatiguing sound and with the correct horn have significantly less midrange honk. (That's the technical term.... :D

Hi Widget
Could you tell us if a 2" driver (i.e the 2445) would need a different kind of x-over up to the 077 than a 1" (i.e the 2426) would?

I have searched high and low but cannot find any x-over layouts from people using 2445 or 2446 or 2450 for that matter.
Vern

[doodlebug]

Here's what I am using right now:

JBL 4670A theater system: 2445J along with the 3160 (500hz) crossover and a 2380 biradial horn.

Frankly, I like the sonic signature - presentation out in front of the speakers, no honking that I remember from my days selling old horns with 70s vintage solid state electronics. Compared to the UREI 813s (the Altec 604 version - 1" compression driver), they're right in there for a solid and effortless presentation. The bass bins (dual 2225s in a 4508 cabinet) could use a bit more bottom end but that's been discussed here before. BTW, I'm using old McIntosh tube amps or a HK Citation II tube amp to drive them.

This is my first experience with a 2" throat driver so there's limited experience involved here in terms of comparisons with other alternatives. There are folks faaaaar more experienced in this aspect. I'm just having fun with the things - and enjoying it.

As for crossovers to reference, there's a good instruction manual for the Professional Series of crossovers over in the Lansing Library that has the 3160/3150/3110 hookup information. I've got a hardcopy of the 3160 schematic but can't seem to find the original scanned in copy. I think its in the Library, too.

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers,

David

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Widget
Could you tell us if a 2" driver (i.e the 2445) would need a different kind of x-over up to the 077 than a 1" (i.e the 2426) would?
I am not a fan of the plug and play crossovers. I do not think a 3106 or whatever is a one size fits all solution. Essentially what I am saying is that every horn/driver system combo really needs a unique crossover to get the most from a particular system. You can try a stock network like the 3106, but don't expect the highest level of performance from it.


Widget

[4313B]

I am wondering what your thoughts are on using 1" drivers, VS 2", for home stereo reproduction?If you can afford the 2" throat drivers then use them. The 4-inch diaphragmed compression drivers consistently trump their smaller siblings.

You're all wrong. :D

Seriously,... you are all wrong.I find it rather disappointing that one cannot bolt a 2441 into a 4344/4345 or a 476Be into a K2-S9800.

I am not a fan of the plug and play crossovers.They were a product of their time. As you already know, JBL was pretty weak in filter design back then. Other companies were doing alot better with filter design and that is why they were able to get away with cheaper transducers in their offerings.

[cooky1257]

If you can afford the 2" throat drivers then use them. The 4-inch diaphragmed compression drivers consistently trump their smaller siblings.
I find it rather disappointing that one cannot bolt a 2441 into a 4344/4345 or a 476Be into a K2-S9800.
They were a product of their time. As you already know, JBL was pretty weak in filter design back then. Other companies were doing alot better with filter design and that is why they were able to get away with cheaper transducers in their offerings.

Eh, I'm so glad you two guys posted. I've read this thread earlier today and have been sitting in my listening room getting blown away by some old Motown (Thank you by Gladys Knight in particular) over my JBL's thinking (cue echoey voice) "am I missing something here?, am I deaf? 'cos these 2441's sound amazing to me"
And relax:)
Cooky

[4313B]

'cos these 2441's sound amazing to me"My gripe with the 376/2441 is its weight. :p

Even on that dubious 2311 the 2441 with the cc network sounds really good, lol.

The LE175, LE85 and their peers aren't "bad" drivers at all. The 4-inch diaphragm drivers are simply better. Why shouldn't they be.

[doodlebug]

I am not a fan of the plug and play crossovers. I do not think a 3106 or whatever is a one size fits all solution. Essentially what I am saying is that every horn/driver system combo really needs a unique crossover to get the most from a particular system. You can try a stock network like the 3106, but don't expect the highest level of performance from it.


Widget

Understand that, Widget, but they're just sitting there and came with the whole package so can't fault that. Perhaps I'll be able to go bi-amping with the setup, which should be lots of fun but extra work, which I'm not able to do right now. Our OP wanted to know if folks were using big drivers so just chimed in.

Cheers,

David

[Beowulf57]

You're all wrong. :D

Seriously,... you are all wrong. ;))


Widget :D

oops...sorry, I'm all wrong. Fools walk in where wise men fear to tread:applaud: and I've no experience with the 2" compression drivers. Time to exit gracefully.

Cheers,

Beowulf57

[Paul D]

Geez, after reading all of this, maybe I should revisit the idea of experimenting with larger compression drivers!

My system has evolved toward a quasi DIY version of the 4343. My question is - would it be worth while to use a 2441 or similar between a 2123 and an 077 and what would be the smoothest horn to use?

[speakerdave]

. . . . My system has evolved toward a quasi DIY version of the 4343. My question is - would it be worth while to use a 2441 or similar between a 2123 and an 077 and what would be the smoothest horn to use?

I've used the 2450 with a 2450SL (aquaplased) diaphragm in a similar situation using stock crossovers and the 2311. Would have used the 2441 (with the 2450sl diaphragm) but there is not room enough around the 2122 dog box. The combination of the 2441 throat and the 2311 is very close to the 2307 plus 2421 throat. Using another horn you may get into crossover purgatory on the way to audio nirvana.

David

[4313B]

My question is - would it be worth while to use a 2441 or similar between a 2123 and an 077 and what would be the smoothest horn to use?If I had the money to buy a 2441 then I would use the 2441/2311 in place of the 2421/2307 or 2425/2307. If I didn't have the money to buy a 2441 then I would live with the 2421/2307 or 2425/2307. I've posted this several times before with respect to the DIY versions of the 4344/4345 and 4355.

[Rolf]

You're all wrong. :D

Seriously,... you are all wrong.


So you are saying that all the recommandations vs changing from 2420 to 244x I got from all "experts" on the forum was wrong?:blink:

[Mr. Widget]

So you are saying that all the recommandations vs changing from 2420 to 244x I got from all "experts" on the forum was wrong?:blink:I have no idea what recommendations you may have gotten. What I am saying is that when used in a system with a tweeter, the large format drivers are absolutely superior to the small format drivers.

Whether you should make a change or not is a separate question.


Widget

[Rolf]

I have no idea what recommendations you may have gotten. What I am saying is that when used in a system with a tweeter, the large format drivers are absolutely superior to the small format drivers.

Whether you should make a change or not is a separate question.


Widget

You know what I have. 4343'sB with original components. Guido (bought them from him) has changed and fixed everything regarding the x-over, the the originals are "up to date". When I asked the question on the forum all said : do not. (change from 2420 to 244x) I remember that the 2440 (375) in my Paragon was better in some parts of the frq.

That was the question from me ... do or do not.:blink:

[4313B]

You know what I have. 4343'sB with original components. Guido (bought them from him) has changed and fixed everything regarding the x-over, the the originals are "up to date". When I asked the question on the forum all said : do not. (change from 2420 to 244x) I remember that the 2440 (375) in my Paragon was better in some parts of the frq.

That was the question from me ... do or do not.:blink:You have a stock system and the network was designed for the 2420. That's probably why you got the recommendation from people that you did. This is the DIY forum. Like I posted above, some of the stock systems won't even allow for the larger compression drivers to be used in place of the smaller compression drivers.

[RKLee]

I am not all that good at JBL hardware so here it goes, you already have 4" JBL compression driver, why in the world would you want a 1" compression driver to function in a tweeter capacity? I believe the true claim to fame of these compression drivers is that they function pretty darn good as mid-range drivers, but only so-so as hi-freq tweeters. Why not get a true JBL tweeter such as a 075, 076, or 077(sorry I don't remember the pro designation)?

[Tom Brennan]

RK---Some people just prefer the sound of 2-ways, I do. I'd rather have a slightly soft top end than deal with problems of getting tweeters to gel. It's a matter of taste and of need: many older hi-fi fans like myself simply don't hear high enough to hear the extended highs of a tweeter.

It's easier to make a 2-way "coherant", tha's the the modern buzzword, coherant. Such as "the open baffle mounted 5" speaker while lacking the ultimate in dynamics and bass had a coherance......blah-blah-blah" ;)

[doodlebug]

Yes, I'm in the same boat as Tom on this. I've considered adding one of the high-freq tweeters to my setup but, frankly, the sound I'm getting is just fine. There's a law of diminishing returns for some things and I'm coming around to just keeping the 2 way system as is.

Cheers,

David

[RKLee]

Tom Brennan & doodlebug : Okay thanks for the explanation, I see the method to the madness. KISS = keep it simple stupid.

At one time JBL used a silver ring in the pole piece in the LE175/LE85.

[Beowulf57]

Check out this thread: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20973&highlight=beowulf57

Adding a HF compression driver can be an improvement, but it is a matter of preference and hearing response up top.

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, Friends,

Thanks to one and all who took time to comment on this thread! Your thoughts, comments, and suggestions are exactly what I wanted to hear! This has given me much food for thought, and in the end, has solidified my desire to buy some 2445's a kind forum member is holding for me! Having these drivers will allow me to experiment with two way, and three way systems, using the larger compression drivers. This is the only way I can really know if I like the sound of such systems, compared to similar systems using the 2420's, both with, and without, the 2405's. Thanks, again, my Friends, and once things begin to pop, experimentation-wise, I'll let you all know what sounds best to these old, and somewhat tired, ears!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Mannermusic]

Hi Doc - Here's one last item I didn't see mentioned in the thread. When (if) you use the 2" horn for treble in the "4343" configuration (1200 Hz crossover), you cut the length of the (exponential) horn in half. The H91 horn is about 9" and the H93 is 4 1/2". This allows you to get the system driver diaphragms pretty well lined up for a change - and you can hear the difference. Mike

[Doc Mark]

Hi Doc - Here's one last item I didn't see mentioned in the thread. When (if) you use the 2" horn for treble in the "4343" configuration (1200 Hz crossover), you cut the length of the (exponential) horn in half. The H91 horn is about 9" and the H93 is 4 1/2". This allows you to get the system driver diaphragms pretty well lined up for a change - and you can hear the difference. Mike

Hey, Mike,

This is a very fine idea, and one I'd not considered! I don't have the H93's, but will begin looking for a good pair, when I'm into this project. Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, and I can see why going to the shorter horn, crossed at the same 1200HZ, would make a positive difference in the sound. Thanks, VERY much, for that thought, Mike! I'll keep you posted as to how it works out. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[subwoof]

On both of the 4343 pairs I rebuilt some years ago the 2311 and 2441 *did* fit if you used a simple tool used for wood turning on the doghouse top edge..

It turned out that the clearance was enough but there was NO room for play so production tolerances meant a maybe fit.

Using a scoop ( smiley face chisel ) I just removed the 1/8 inch or so on top of the doghouse to make it work. 5 minutes tops. Watch for nails...

The "massive" network change I did was add a 2 ( or 4 I can't remember ) 20Watt resistor in series to lower the output since the driver is 1.5db hotter than the 2420.

And to sum it up, DISTORTION,DISTORTION,DISTORTION.

If I was in the business listening to these for an 8hr shift day after day, this would be a no brainier. For the really tweako, get an RTA and correct it with a 539 and move on.

There is simply no comparing the large format drivers with the small. Period.

Why JBL didn't use them in the first place, or as an option, considering the high cost anyways, is a mystery. It's like the famous astronaut saying:

" It's real comforting to know you are flying in space on lowest bidder products "

:cheers:

sub

[4313B]

There you have it Rolf!

Get a chisel, a couple resistors, a pair of 2311's and 2441's and git 'er done! :)

[Rolf]

Well, I am still waiting for you to get things better. When?


There you have it Rolf!

Get a chisel, a couple resistors, a pair of 2311's and 2441's and git 'er done! :)