Alive And Well In My JBL Shop

[saeman]

A few members that I've recently talked with had the impression that I am on vacation from projects and from the forum and JBL, but those who I talk with frequently know that this is not true. I haven't had anything significant to post, and I'm not one to spend time internet chatting when I could be working on my projects.

I tend to slow down in the winter as the garage it too damn cold to relax. Maybe I'll quit procrastinating and install a gas furnace before this next winter hits. Small electric heaters barely take the edge off the cold midwest winter days. Come spring I'm in full gear and I'll stay that way all the way thru fall.

I completed the restoration of the 4350's for Neandethal a couple months ago and since then I've restored 4343B's and 4344's that I found while in Japan, put my early 4350's back into service after some fine tuning and am soon to complete the restoration of a pair of 4350B's and 4315B's that have been sitting unattended for nearly a year. This will end my restorations for a while and I hope to get back to some new construction project.

The charge coupled network project is ongoing. Over the past few months I have received several pairs of 3107's and 3155's and have forwarded them on to their owners. Others are still on the bench and I'll hopefully see more coming soon. Giskard/4313B is putting time in on the project as he can and all in waiting (including me and I've been in since the beginning some 2 1/2 years ago) are anxious to see final results, but need to remember that it's a part time job for those involved getting a lower priority than job and family. It looks now that promises were made that were not possible to keep. This summer we should see a large number of networks completed so hang in there please. 3144/3145 networks are currently being built (6 pairs) and we will then go back and do the second batch of 3107's and 3155's.

My communications on this project have not been the best but as I said before, If I don't have anything to say, you won't see me chatting on the forum. For those who have been waiting impatiently, you know I've kept in touch - from here in the U.S. to Europe and I have a rather hefty ongoing phone bill to show for it. The first pair of 3144/3145 networks should be done early next week and we're hoping for good reviews.

I know a little but I don't know too many!!!!

Rick :bouncy:

[Chas]

Rick, it's good to hear from you. Just today, I was reading (and re-living!) the old posts from ~2004, the 4344 project, etc. Ah, the good old days, when I was a JBL newbie...

I, for one, look forward to future reports (and pics) - maybe later in the summer.:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Rick,

Some pics would be nice (of your wife)

iMac:D

[saeman]

Thanx Chas and Ian. I tried to post a few pics in the thread but the option to manage pics was not working so I'll try again here at home.

I wanted to share the restoration of this pair of 4350B's as they were an interesting find. They came to me in a trade deal and have been sitting in the garage for months until I recently got caught up enough to start their restoration.

The pair had seemingly seen little use and their last owner I was told used them for Karaoke in their home. Grilles were in decent shape but no badges. Bases were missing but no problem there. All drivers inside are DEAD MINT - no oxidation anywhere so they have for sure spent their life in someones living room.

The veneer was beautiful with only scratches on one side of each cabinet due to being placed on their side. Many don't have the floor space for them to sit horizontally. Problem is that there were some edge gouges and a couple of corner hits. I looked and looked and looked, and tried to just hit them with sandpaper. I finally took the router to them and cut off the face trim and cut out all edges. There's just no other way to make these problems go away. A few days later I was laying new veneer and one cab in now ready to bring in the house.

After I went thru all the work I was looking down the top rear edge of the cabinet and there is a sag in the center at the rear edge. When laying a steel 4' straight edge across the top I found a 1/8 inch sag to center. The top at the front is perfect.

This is total crap and a complete breech of faith. I cannot believe that JBL would sell a cabinet like this out the door. For all who know how these cabinets were made, you will know that this is not a sag with age or any thing similar. This is plain poor workmanship and there's really no way to fix it without near ripping the cabinet apart.

It's not noticable unless you're looking but it's there for sure. I'll take a pic with the straight edge in place.

I also had a new surprise when router cutting off the bevel face trim - NAILS and big nails to boot. These babies didn't phase the 3 1/2 hp router I use but they trashed a new flush trim bit leaving a nice gouge in each flute. Most of there face trim is simply glued on and I have seen some small brad nails used. The router always slices thru the small nails but these were over 1/16" dia. They aparantly nailed the trim in place until the glue dried, then set the nails and likely installed a tapered walnut plug in the hole. 1/2" shank, 3/4" dia. flush trim bits aren't cheap but I haven't figured out yet how to avoid this problem in the future.

Ian you ole dog - I will send you a PM as there's a lot of catching up I'd like to do with you. Many questions related to your thread on the factory 3145 that you wrote after reviewing Clark's networks. I'm restoring 3 pairs of these networks and having fun along the way. Back to you soon.

Rick

[Audiobeer]

Rick, it's always fantastic to see and hear about your projects! Just absolutely beautiful stuff. That being said I want you to know I am more than happy to store and/or monitor any of your projects. It's the least I can do! :applaud:

[mech986]

Rick,

It's always a pleasure to see how you transform/resurrect these big monitors. There's just something visceral about the large format cabinets in all their veneered glory. Thanks for the great documentary pics and great work. I wish I'd have the time and skill (and tools) to do the kind of work you do.

Regards,

Bart

[saeman]

Hi Beer:

Nice to hear from you and thanx for the offer. If you were closer I would take you up on the offer of storage - seriously. I have been building/buying/restoring for over a year with no sales. This creates two problems - storage overload and cash drain. I have a storage shop where my big tools reside but no climate control, so I can't store excess there. The house if full of completed cabinets and soon when recones arrive I will complete some of these and start finding new homes for them.

Speaking of storage - 3 months ago I had to move out of my old shop after 19 years of accumulation. The property was sold and I had to clear out. I knew this was coming for some time but figured I could pull it off in a week or two - wrong!!! All said and done I was down to the wire after 30 days. I filled a 30 yard dumpster in two days with enough wood to build a small house, 2 big screen tv's and a butt load of speaker cabinets that I knew I would never find time to restore. There was just no time to move it all and no where to store it. In the land fill went a pair of single woof scoops, a pair of 4315 cabs, a pair of DIY L200's that I built for my brother 30 years ago and a pair of L45 Flairs. I did take along a restorable pair of Olympus cabs and a pair of Sovereigh cabs - cheap to a good home. My JBL roots are with the Sovereign and there's just no way I could have thrown them in the dumpster.

We made it out on time and I'll likely never miss all that I threw away.

[Charlie4350]

Wow. Always great to see the pics Rick. That's some very handsome veneer on the B's. Maybe someday the Mad Max's (Copa's) will look half as nice in gray.

Chuck

[Mr. Widget]

Speaking of storage - 3 months ago I had to move out of my old shop after 19 years of accumulation. ...I knew this was coming for some time but figured I could pull it off in a week or two - wrong!!! All said and done I was down to the wire after 30 days. I filled a 30 yard dumpster in two days...

We made it out on time and I'll likely never miss all that I threw away.You too?

I went through that last summer. I had been there 15 years. I hauled off 5,600 lbs. of treasures. I don't miss most of it, but occasionally I curse as I head off to the hardware store to buy a bit of angle iron or whatever that got tossed.

Are you already back up and running? I'm not. The main machines are operational, but the spray booth is still in the drawing board stage and much of the wiring, dust collection and air plumbing etc. still needs to be done.


Widget

[boputnam]

AI haven't had anything significant to post, and I'm not one to spend time internet chatting when I could be working on my projects. Boy-howdy, Rick - me too, and me neither.


The charge coupled network project is ongoing.(need smilie for "Music to My Ears!")


Over the past few months I have received several pairs of 3107's and 3155's and have forwarded them on to their owners. Others are still on the bench and I'll hopefully see more coming soon. Giskard/4313B is putting time in on the project as he can and all in waiting (including me and I've been in since the beginning some 2 1/2 years ago) are anxious to see final results...Me too, me too! :bouncy:


My communications on this project have not been the best but as I said before, If I don't have anything to say, you won't see me chatting on the forum. Yea, Rick and many/most are similarly affected. Having said that, the forum has (finally...) taken a place of proper perspective in most's lives, making it a more sane and less volatile place. All good...

btw, as others have said, your work is remarkable, be it refurbishing or new builds. Simply amazing.

[subwoof]

I find that using a 1/4" thick Nd magnet is a good way to find those hidden nails - it's powerful enough to find even the deep ones.

Almost any magnet salvaged from a dead hard drive will work.

BTW - are you going to use all of the old bullet mounting brackets you got on ebay? I missed those by 1 minute..:)

sub

[saeman]

Rick,

Some pics would be nice (of your wife)

iMac:D

Hi Ian: Always aim to pleeze!! How's the weather down-under?

[saeman]

A couple more pics. Veneering the second cabinet now and hope to have them both done mid next week. You can see the dip in the top edge under the straight edge. I thought this was quite amazing since JBL typically built a great cabinet when compared to their competetors.

The veneer pics are just for reference. I ALWAYS use paperback veneer with PCV glue and heat bond it to the substrate. Cabinets veneered using contact cement are time bombs waiting to go off. Call me arrogant if you like but in near 30 years I have not had a time bomb go off with this method. I have had no end of problems with 3M self adhesive backed veneers and also with contact cement use (usually at corners and along exposed edges.

I bond in about 2 square feet sections using heat and a roller. I place a cotton tee shirt cloth over the veneer. This keeps the glue from getting too hot and melting and also protects the veneer. This crumby old iron used to belong to my wife but she finally gave up and bought herself a new one. This $20 master piece has likely layed down 50 plus sheets of veneer.

I trim all exposed overlapped edges using a laminate trimmer. Small planes and rasps are too risky in my opinion. Using a straight edge I scribe a cut line at cross grain sections to prevent chipping. The results are always perfect, less occasions when I fail to pay attention to what I'm doing. I can work and drink and listen to music with no problems. but if there's someone else in the shop to distract me, I can usually count on mistakes.

Under the foil cal of one cabinet I found written in pencil "HENRY" Could this guy be responsible for the sag in the cabinet top? I looked close for any other KILROY WAS HERE type artwork but found nothing.

[saeman]

BTW - are you going to use all of the old bullet mounting brackets you got on ebay? I missed those by 1 minute..:)

sub

What ALL ?? I bought one pair.

[saeman]

Here's a couple pics of replacing the front edge of the 4315 cabinets. The cabinet edge is 5/8" wide and extends beyond the baffle by 3/8". This is a very delicate piece and is very often damaged, and even broken. The cabinets walls are 3/4" P.B. and the edge is cutdown to 5/8" in front and veneered over the face.

To fix problems with the front edge I have found it easier to cut out the entire face - 5/8" in and 1/4" down. I then install a solid piece of walnut trim, mitred at the corners. The piece is oversize at 11/16" x 11/16". After installation I then trim it flush to the cabinet sides and face trim it so that it protrudes 3/8" beyond the baffle. At this point I veneer all surfaces.

[mech986]

Hi Rick,

Just a question, where these cabinets ever flown or mounted by the side/end panels without support on the bottom back of the cabinets? Might produce the sag although the center of gravity with mounted drivers is likely frontwards and stressing the baffle. Was the cab in a relatively humid environment?

Bart

[saeman]

Hi Rick,

Just a question, where these cabinets ever flown or mounted by the side/end panels without support on the bottom back of the cabinets? Might produce the sag although the center of gravity with mounted drivers is likely frontwards and stressing the baffle. Was the cab in a relatively humid environment?

Bart

Bart:

From my initial post, none of these possibilities apply. This is just poor workmanship/poor quality control.

Rick

[johnaec]

I ALWAYS use paperback veneer with PCV glue and heat bond it to the substrate.Can you expand on this? I'm pretty much a veneer neophyte. What are usual sources of paperback veneer, and is that how it is described in sales terms? Is the thickness a certain standard? Any details on the PCV glue? Is it brushed on? To both pieces, (cabinet and veneer)?

'Sorry for all the questions, but I definitely have cabinets coming up that will need veneering, and I'd just as soon learn from a master. :)

John

[saeman]

Hi John:

I can give it a try but the topic will be hard to keep on track. I've talked about veneering in many other threads and then regretted that they could not all be tied together - anyway!

There are several types of veneer on the market and I have used most all of them. Some are better suited than others for veneering cabinets like those we are talking about but I will give you my OPINIONS on the use of the different types that I have used.

1. Raw unbacked veneer - not readily available. When available it's usually in small pieces and seldom in sizes needed to veneer a large cabinet. It is thus required to be seamed and joined to desired width. This is a task in itself to yield a proper seam - not for me. Raw veneer also is more fragile and easily cracked and split. Withous any backing there is a major risk of having the bonding glue weep thru to the surface that you intend to stain and oil - major problem as there is no glue that I know of that can be cleaned from the grain. Also, the lack of some sort of backing may allow stains and oild to penetrate to the glue and break it's bond.

2. 3M adhesive Back Veneer - I've used it with good results on large flat surfaces that are properly prepared. It does not bond consistantly well to bare wood (P.B., MDF, etc.). If you seal the wood before hand you will get better results. I have coated the substrate first with a polyeurethane varnish and then lightly sanded it smooth. This has given me good results with this type of veneer. If your project has any exposed veneer edges, don't use this veneer. If you can cover the edges and corners and prevent lifting then it will give good results. JBL cabinets all have corners and long exposed edges and somewhere in time (likely sooner than later) you will notice a corner lifting up and it's very hard to affect a repair. Small lifts can be layed back down with super glue but once this starts it will continue.

3. Phenolic Backed Veneer - a lot like formica, very stable, will lay down with PVC glue, epoxy glue and contact cement. Best suited for projects where there are no exposed edges as this product is very thick (like formica) and the exposed edges are very difficult to hide. No chance that glues will seep thru to the wod veneer layer and no chance that oils will interfere with the glue bond. I like this product but trying to hide the exposed edge has left me frustrated too many times.

4. Paper Backed Veneer - commonly refered to as 10 mil Paper Back Veneer. Available from anyplace that sells veneer. This has a veneer layer that is bonded to a paper backing that is 10 mil thick. Overall thickness varies by manufacturer. The paper backing provides good stability and allows handling without damage. It also provides a good barrier between most glues and oils and the veneer. Excess contact cement will leach thru the paper if brushed or rolled on in thick layers. It's best to use the industrial 2 part contact cements that are sprayed on if you desire to use contact cement with this type of veneer.

GLUE - Epoxy, Contact Cement, PVC (wood glue)

Two part epoxy is most often used in conjunction with the bag and vacuum pump system on pieces that will fit into the bag or when you have a flat press available to maintain the piece until the epoxy sets. This method has little application in veneering or re-veneering whole cabinets so there's no merit in further discussion.

Contact Cements - water based, stinky regular old contact cement or sprayed industrial types (3M offers a couple different options) as does Glaserith and others - offers great bonding for flat surfaces. Problems occur at exposed edges and at corners. A contact cement bond is a flexible bond, even if on a microscopic scale. No matter what base material you use (P.B., MDF, plywood) it will have it's own unique expansion coefficient which determines the rate the material will expand or contract with changes in temp and the absorption of moisture. The veneer also has it's own characteristics. As your cabinet flexes, expands and contracts with changes in humidity you won't notice problems with the bond on large flat surfaces but you will notice the effect at corners and along exposed edges. The bond gives way at the weakest points. I've seen this many many times after using contact cement and also with self adhesive backed veneer.

PVC Glue - Wood Glue - Yellow elmers, tite-bond, etc. This glue is used by everyone who does work with wood. It is a plastic based glue (Poly Vinyl Chloride) and is water soluable when in liquid form. This glue provides a solid bond between the veneer and substrate - as does epoxy and all of the hot glues used by the furnature industry years ago. It is likely, based on the time frame. that all of the veneered stock used by JBL was made using the hot glue and pressure roll process. At that time the exotic contact cements used today were not in use in that industry.

The nice things about PVC glue is that once it has dried, it can be reactivated with the application of heat - and when it is it's a nasty stickey glue that is like contact cement. PVC glues generally do not fully cure for about 48 - 72 hours. Up to that time you can heat and reavtivate/ after that - good luck.

With good technique I have found this option to be fool proof and over many years of use I have yet to have any lifting issues. If desired I can continue on with this thread and discuss my application techniques.

[grumpy]

... appreciate the time that went into that post. Nice to have both a
recommended path, as well as a description of what didn't work so well & why. Thanks! :applaud:

[johnaec]

Thanks for the detailed post! What had me most confused was the PCV/PVC glue, since both terms showed up on the internet. Even more confusing is the glue I have in my garage for using on PVC irrigation pipe. Your post clears it up pretty well.


If desired I can continue on with this thread and discuss my application techniques.I may take you up on that, but won't be able to apply it until near the end of the summer...

Thanks again!

John

[subwoof]

Thanks for clearing up the acronym issue - you had me scratching on that one..:o)

I also have had issues with the contact cement lifting and the inevitable residual "stuff" that caused it.

I'm curious on how you deal with the front trim issue on the older big blues. 3 years ago I redid a group of (4) 4343's that had issues everywhere ( and did the same hardwood corner inlay as you ) but I could not reuse the original front trim due to the small increase in the cabinets overall dimensions with the new veneer added.

I purchased a bunch of walnut and made new trims but if there is a "trick" to reusing the old, would be grateful for the advice.

And I now have 12 cabinets in storage awaiting the big ( haha ) block of free time to rebuild.

I had thought about making a very large overhead router / arm assembly to actually plane an entire surface ( and BTW would of removed the dip found on your big cab ) but the mechanical stiffness and calibration needed is a LOT of work for a single-use machine and justifying the space in a "hobby" shop is very hard to do since we all do this for a less than break even $$ adventure.

Please elaborate on your glue techniques - perhaps a dedicated thread that can be put into a sticky ( aka the packing one ) and placed in the tech ref forum.

I have a pair of plastic veneered 4648's that I want to wood veneer for my daughters college room before august....

sub

btw - I thought you got all the brackets since they all disappeared in just a few minutes and I only saved one link...:)

[saeman]

Rule Number One - never use PCV Glue to assemble PCV piping, use PVC Cement instead.

Rule Number Two - never use PCV Cement to lay down wood veneer, use PVC Glue instead.

How's that for confusion??

Let's just refer to it as wood glue and things will be less confusing. These are several options for wood glue and the choice is likely a matter of availability however you should buy the better product that any manufacturer offers. I've used Elmers Professional yellow glue with no problem but I hesitate to use their regular old white kids craft glue. Tite Bond offers Tite-Bond, Tite-Bond II and now Tite-Bond III.

I use Tite-Bond II - coz I always have and because I can get it in Gallons at any Home Depot store. Menards typically does not carry it in gallons. Tite-Bond and Tite-Bond III might both work just as well but I'll stay with the product that has given me repeatedly good results.

Application - I roll the glue onto the surface using a 4" wide short nap paint roller - 3 coats on the substrate and 2 coats on the paper backed veneer. I use 3 on the base material because that material typically absorbs the better part of the first layer and the paper backing on the veneer does not. Most veneer suppliers state that a glue layer of about 6 mil. is required to ensure a proper bond.

Allow each layer to dry to the touch - nothing left that's sticky. I go one after the other as fast as they dry and I'll quite often force dry the layers with a fan to speed up the process. Direct sunlight is the very best.

Warm weather is the best time as the glue dries fast with no clouding. When the temp is 60 or less the veneer will take longer to set and also it will dry with a milky appearance.

It's best to bond the veneer as soon as the glue is dry although I have gotten side tracked and waited as long as 24 hours. After about 48 hours the glue starts to cure and WILL not reactivate with heat. If this occurs you're screwed and need to start over.

When the glue is dry enough that you can still sink your fingernail into the layer is the best time to heat and roll.

I will usually apply a 18" x 48" piece on the bottom of a 4350 in about 15-20 minutes, breaking the work up into aout 2 square foot sections.

Use a clothes iron at full heat and apply the heat thru a piece of old cotton tee shirt - start at one corner and work it in rows and columns fashion. Keep the iron moving and don't stop too long in any one place. Apply even pressure and go over the entire section while listening for crackling under the veneer.

After this initial ironing I start at the beginning corner and apply heat while applying pressure with a 4" wide veneer roller. Corners require a little more effort to prevent rolling over the edge and breaking the veneer that is hanging over the edge. I do this seconf step while rolling in the direction of the grain.

Third step is to leave the cloth in place, trace a pencil line at the boundary of where you left off, reheat the whole section and remove the cloth. Then roll over the section going against the grain (cross grain). At this time with the cloth cushion removed it's very important to listen for crackling under the roller as you move it along. Crackling means poor bond - either not enough glue or you didn't apply enough heat and/or pressure to affect a good bond. This is a somewhat forgiving process. Reheat any bad spots and roll again. If the crackling fails to go away you either have a trapped air bubble or a spot with insufficient glue. We can talk about the fix for these issues later.

I cut all of my veneer pieces to allow a 3/16" overhang at all sides, that will be trimmed off after the veneer is applied. I pick 3/16" because I usually try to grain wrap the cabinet from a single piece that is long enough to give me a side-top-side continuous grain. Leaving more than 3/16" overhang can side shift the grain wrap.

More later - I'm at work and heading for home - Rick

[Mr. Widget]

PVC Glue - Wood Glue - Yellow elmers, tite-bond, etc....Hi Rick,

Excellent coverage of this topic... no pun intended, but I think you mean PVA glue when you talk about the family that includes Elmer's and TiteBond etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate


Widget

[4313B]

I copied this info from their websites.

Titebond - Aliphatic resin emulsion
Titebond II - Cross-linking polyvinyl acetate
Titebond III - Advanced Proprietary Polymer
Elmer's Carpenters Wood Glue - PVAC Based Adhesive

I think Titebond and Titebond II react differently with heat. I've never tried Titebond III.

[Mr. Widget]

I think Titebond and Titebond II react differently with heat. I've never tried Titebond III.I believe traditional PVA yellow wood glue, i.e. Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue, Titebond I, and the many other brands along with good old white glue are all fine for heat bonding. I am not sure about the newer Titebond glues.

I have used both Titebond II and III, but typically use the original for most work. Titebond III has very different physical properties and is rather runny.


Widget

[saeman]

Hi Rick,

I think you mean PVA glue when you talk about the family that includes Elmer's and TiteBond etc.Widget

Hi Widget:

You're quite right but what's an acetal and a chloride among friends. These glues have for a long time been loosely and improperly refered to as PCV's, even amongst woodworkers. Who knows, maybe it's an easier acronym to remember.

On the web site for Oakwood Veneer there is a lengthly discussion on the installation of veneer using 10 mil P.B. and PVA glues. My thread is just a rehash of this info with a few of my little habits thrown in.
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html Oakwood Veneer's is my major supplier and their site has been mentioned on the Forum many many times. I think that very few have ever taken the time to see what they're all about. There's info there on the merits of all bonding methods as well as info on veneer manufacturing, different cuts, etc.

Later - Rick

[4313B]

Mr. Widget turned me on to Oakwood Veneer. Previous to that I used Rockler or Paxton.

[saeman]

Mr. Widget turned me on to Oakwood Veneer. Previous to that I used Rockler or Paxton. These guys are the best - not only in selection, in-stock product, one day shipping to me and quality of their material - but - their customer service really stands out. I've called their sales manager many times and described to him my needs and he's taken the time to hand pick and ship same day and I'm not even close to being one of their biggest customers.

[Mr. Widget]

...but - their customer service really stands out. I've called their sales manager many times and described to him my needs and he's taken the time to hand pick and ship same day...:yes:

They are awesome... I have sent them veneer samples from my scrap pile and have had them search through their stock to match it. They are not the least expensive, but their prices are very fair and their quality is top notch. I have never been disappointed by them.


Widget

[saeman]

Finally getting back to complete my description on veneer installation using wood glue and paper backed veneer.

I recommend that everyone installing veneer, regardless of veneer type and adhesion method, take the time to look over the hints offered on Oakwood Veneer's web site. I started doing veneer quite a while before I discovered them and I went thru a lot of trial and error, wasted product and frustrations. I finally established my system and techniques and was a happy camper with only infrequent problems. When I started using Oakwood and discovered their web site hints I was able to further fine tune my methods - wish I had seen these before.

Some DO's and DO-NOT's

Do - always use a cloth layer between the iron and the veneer. This protects the veneer from being damaged and the iron from collecting sap on the surface. Even more important, the cloth provides an insulation barrier against too much heat being applied. If you apply too much heat the glue will melt or puddle. The goal is to heat the glue to the point that it becomes very sticky like contact cement. If you melt it totally you now have a situation where the veneer will only bond after the glue again dries. This would require that pressure be applied to that spot and left there until the glue is fully dried.

Do - always keep the iron moving and do not ponder in one spot too long. I'm guilty of leaving the iron sit while I swap bugs that are biting at my ankles - stay focused. Too much heat for too long and you have the problems I mentioned above.

Do a large surface in sections. I break the area up into approx. 2 Sq-Ft patches. Some recommend working from the center out in all directions but this is difficult when trying to keep track of where you left off when working a large area.

When you have completed the piece go over the entire area with a veneer roller, cloth removed, and listen for any crackling under the roller. If a problem area is detected, heat and roll again.

Do Not - roll off the exposed overhang or corners. This will break the veneer, usually in a way that it will still show after you have trimmed off the excess.

Do Not try to sand off the overhang. This will give you a louzy edge, especially over the length of a long cabinet side. Small veneer planes are available but in the hands of a non-skilled user they are an accident waiting to happen. They are also iffy when trimming cross-grain. Spend $75-$100 and buy a high speed laminate trimmer with a flush trim bit. Scribe a cut line across grain to prevent chipping and cut slow. Go like hell when cutting with the grain.

After trimming off excess overhang, sand all cut edges. Do not sand across grain (obvious) and do not sand in the up direction as it will possibly lift the veneer. Always sand downward - down, lift the block, raise the block, apply and sand down again - hope that makes sense.

I use a fresh piece of 100 grit since this is just to remove excess. Finish paper will be used later.

After trimming the veneer and before sanding the exposed edges - take your thumb and go along the entire exposed veneer edge, in the upward direction, trying to lift the veneer - like thumbing over a deck of cards or thru the pages of a book. Thumb up only, over the entire edge and listen for loose veneer. You'll know when you hear it if the bond is not good.

A loose edge section or corner can usually be reheated and rolled again to correct the problem. If this does not work then you likely have a spot where there is insufficient glue. You can lift the veneer with a thin blade, apply a spot of wood glue and then tie it down with some masking tape until the glue dries. This is not uncommon at corners as the glue, when applied, wants to leach away from the pointed corners. In warm weather I seldom have problems but when it's colder out I pay particulat attention to these areas when rolling on the glue.

If you find bubbles under the veneer and they will not lay down with more heat and roller pressure then you likely have a trapped air bubble. Take a thin single edge razor blade and slice a line thru the veneer (small as possible. After releasing the air try to heat and roll the spot again. If this does not work then you not only had an air bubble but also not enough glue at that spot. Make your slice a bit longer, try to hold it open so that a small amount of glue can be squeezed thru the crack. Use the blade tip of a small utility knife to insert the glue. Afterwards lightly push down to let excess glue exit the slice. Wipe the area with a damp cloth to clean the grain as best possible. Place a patch of waxed paper over the spot and find a dead weight to sit there for a couple hours while the glue dries - No more heat and roll at this point!!!! This should give you a good bond at the bad spot - and it you're lucky the spot will not show after the sanding and oiling is complete.

Can't think of anything else right now.

[johnaec]

What a bunch of great veneering posts!! I wonder if this info can be made a "sticky" somewhere, like Bo's re-foaming thread? Either way, I know where to look now.

Thanks very much!!

John

[neanderthal]

Finally getting back to complete my description on veneer installation using wood glue and paper backed veneer.

I recommend that everyone installing veneer, regardless of veneer type and adhesion method, take the time to look over the hints offered on Oakwood Veneer's web site. I started doing veneer quite a while before I discovered them and I went thru a lot of trial and error, wasted product and frustrations. I finally established my system and techniques and was a happy camper with only infrequent problems. When I started using Oakwood and discovered their web site hints I was able to further fine tune my methods - wish I had seen these before.

Some DO's and DO-NOT's

Do - always use a cloth layer between the iron and the veneer. This protects the veneer from being damaged and the iron from collecting sap on the surface. Even more important, the cloth provides an insulation barrier against too much heat being applied. If you apply too much heat the glue will melt or puddle. The goal is to heat the glue to the point that it becomes very sticky like contact cement. If you melt it totally you now have a situation where the veneer will only bond after the glue again dries. This would require that pressure be applied to that spot and left there until the glue is fully dried.

Do - always keep the iron moving and do not ponder in one spot too long. I'm guilty of leaving the iron sit while I swap bugs that are biting at my ankles - stay focused. Too much heat for too long and you have the problems I mentioned above.

Do a large surface in sections. I break the area up into approx. 2 Sq-Ft patches. Some recommend working from the center out in all directions but this is difficult when trying to keep track of where you left off when working a large area.

When you have completed the piece go over the entire area with a veneer roller, cloth removed, and listen for any crackling under the roller. If a problem area is detected, heat and roll again.

Do Not - roll off the exposed overhang or corners. This will break the veneer, usually in a way that it will still show after you have trimmed off the excess.

Do Not try to sand off the overhang. This will give you a louzy edge, especially over the length of a long cabinet side. Small veneer planes are available but in the hands of a non-skilled user they are an accident waiting to happen. They are also iffy when trimming cross-grain. Spend $75-$100 and buy a high speed laminate trimmer with a flush trim bit. Scribe a cut line across grain to prevent chipping and cut slow. Go like hell when cutting with the grain.

After trimming off excess overhang, sand all cut edges. Do not sand across grain (obvious) and do not sand in the up direction as it will possibly lift the veneer. Always sand downward - down, lift the block, raise the block, apply and sand down again - hope that makes sense.

I use a fresh piece of 100 grit since this is just to remove excess. Finish paper will be used later.

After trimming the veneer and before sanding the exposed edges - take your thumb and go along the entire exposed veneer edge, in the upward direction, trying to lift the veneer - like thumbing over a deck of cards or thru the pages of a book. Thumb up only, over the entire edge and listen for loose veneer. You'll know when you hear it if the bond is not good.

A loose edge section or corner can usually be reheated and rolled again to correct the problem. If this does not work then you likely have a spot where there is insufficient glue. You can lift the veneer with a thin blade, apply a spot of wood glue and then tie it down with some masking tape until the glue dries. This is not uncommon at corners as the glue, when applied, wants to leach away from the pointed corners. In warm weather I seldom have problems but when it's colder out I pay particulat attention to these areas when rolling on the glue.

If you find bubbles under the veneer and they will not lay down with more heat and roller pressure then you likely have a trapped air bubble. Take a thin single edge razor blade and slice a line thru the veneer (small as possible. After releasing the air try to heat and roll the spot again. If this does not work then you not only had an air bubble but also not enough glue at that spot. Make your slice a bit longer, try to hold it open so that a small amount of glue can be squeezed thru the crack. Use the blade tip of a small utility knife to insert the glue. Afterwards lightly push down to let excess glue exit the slice. Wipe the area with a damp cloth to clean the grain as best possible. Place a patch of waxed paper over the spot and find a dead weight to sit there for a couple hours while the glue dries - No more heat and roll at this point!!!! This should give you a good bond at the bad spot - and it you're lucky the spot will not show after the sanding and oiling is complete.

Can't think of anything else right now.

Exactally why Rick was my first choice on re-veneering my 4350's, years of experience and perfection.

[saeman]

I finished up my projects this week and for the first time since I can't remember, my shop is empty and void of any sign of a JBL cabinet. It seems kind of weird so I expect I'll have to get something started. I hope to be out of the restoration business for a while. They're always a challenge and certainly rewarding to bring them back to life, but I've had my fill - maybe next year. I need to refrain from buying these old basket cases just for the sake of rebuilding them.

Since completing the 4350's for neanderthal I've hustled thru completing restoration of 4315B's, 4343B's, 4344's and 4350B's. After covering the grilles with new Zilch cloth the projects will be done. I have a good stack of wood already cut for some new construction projects so I hope to spend the remainder of the summer building new.

Thanks for all of your compliments as they're always appreciated. Playing with this old stuff is a passion but having others to share it all with makes it even more fun.

[Doc Mark]

Dear Saeman,

Your work is simply stunning, Sir!!! I am in awe of the artistry you exhibit in rehabilitating these older systems, and making them look even better than brand new!!! I am soon going to be working on some older 4333 cabinets, compliments of Grumpy, and I fear mine will never hold even a small birthday candle to yours, Good Sir!! (Read that: They are utility cabinets, and will very probably remain so.) But, I am excited about putting the system together, nevertheless! Thank you, very much, for sharing the results of your gift in making JBL cabinets look so very fine! Have fun with your upcoming projects, whatever they end up being, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Robh3606]

As always just spectacular work.

Rob:applaud:

[grumpy]

Wonderful to see this level of workmanship in restoration!

Looking forward to more new ideas/projects as well.

I'd sure like to hear some of those wood lenses in comparison
to the seemingly much thinner material used in stock 2308-type.

BTW,
...older 4333 cabinets, ...
Compliments of Saeman as well ... the source of these. :)

[saeman]

I'd sure like to hear some of those wood lenses in comparison
to the seemingly much thinner material used in stock 2308-type.

BTW,
Compliments of Saeman as well ... the source of these. :)

Try as I may, I can't hear any difference between the wood lenses and the plastic 2308's. They have great eye appeal and with the 2308's near gone they're an available choice - Yahoo Japan every once in a while.

Nice that someone will make a project of those old 4333 cabinets. It's always better to pass things along rather than sending them to the land fill.

[Fangio]

Beautiful pictures as always.


..The charge coupled network project is ongoing... Giskard/4313B is putting time in on the project as he can and all in waiting (including me and I've been in since the beginning some 2 1/2 years ago) are anxious to see final results, but need to remember that it's a part time job for those involved getting a lower priority than job and family. Comprehensible, absolutely. :yes:

It looks now that promises were made that were not possible to keep. ... This summer we should see a large number of networks completed so hang in there please.

My communications on this project have not been the best... For those who have been waiting impatiently, you know I've kept in touch - from here in the U.S. to Europe and I have a rather hefty ongoing phone bill to show for it.Yup, patience is a must. Can't imagine though anyone having a problem with your communication Rick.. :)

The first pair of 3144/3145 networks should be done early next week and we're hoping for good reviews. :yes:

this will be the appropriate thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16293

[vernb]

Since completing the 4350's for neanderthal I've hustled thru completing restoration of 4315B's, 4343B's, 4344's and 4350B's. After covering the grilles with new Zilch cloth the projects will be done. I have a good stack of wood already cut for some new construction projects so I hope to spend the remainder of the summer building new.

Hi Saeman
Beautiful work you're doing. I've followed most of your projects, and I wonder one thing. I always thougt the two 15" drivers in 4350 and 4355 had separate cabinets, but in your vertical ones, it is quite visible from your pics that they share the same cabinet. Is that right?
How big are the dog cabs for 2202 in the 4350/4355 speakers. I am quite new to speakerbuilding and in the programs I have available I can only figure out how to get an optimal cab for best bass response. But don't know how to find out how many litres or qubicfeet the 2202 have for playing only down to 300hz.
Could you please give some info?
Thanks
Verner

[Doc Mark]

Try as I may, I can't hear any difference between the wood lenses and the plastic 2308's. They have great eye appeal and with the 2308's near gone they're an available choice - Yahoo Japan every once in a while.

Nice that someone will make a project of those old 4333 cabinets. It's always better to pass things along rather than sending them to the land fill.

Good Morning, Grumpy and Saeman,

WOW! That's very cool and interesting news! So, these 4333 cabinets came from the Chicago area? I'd love to know, exactly, where they've been in their lives! Quite the travelers, it seems!

Sincere and heartfelt thanks to Saeman and to Grumpy, for making them available to me, and you are guaranteed that they will find a loving, and I'd say, permanent home with me and Sweet Bride!! The interesting thing is that she is almost as excited as me, about finally getting this project off the drawing board, and into reality! That makes it even MORE fun! So, thanks to you both, and to several other forum members, for your sharing and kind support!! This is a special place, for those of us who teethed on JBL, and I really appreciate the atmosphere here. I'll take and post photos as my dream speakers finally come to life, and I'm sure I'll have a ton more questions, as things progress. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

I believe purchase was local (Calif) and just the components headed East.

[saeman]

The owner of 2 pairs of 4333's started posting the components on ebay - BIN. I happened along early after the first listing and bought what I wanted from the lot. It was a great find for me. The cabinets were a free "Oh By The Way after buying the components. Not needing them I had a friend pick them up and then offered them on the forum. Grumpy spoke up and the story ends there. I never atually saw them but every cabinet is restorable if you have the ambition.

[Loud & Clear]

:applaud:Beautiful Work!!!

Can you tell me if this Veneer task could be acomplished over a painted surface, sanded smooth? I'm wondering about the paint melting... :(

Many Thanks, Tom