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rj2077
06-08-2008, 10:45 AM
first, my wife said nothing, but i can see it in her eyes...lol..
second, big and heavy..
third, i got the electronics, but do not know how to plug and play. the speakers have no x-overs built in. what i got are 2 UREI model 539 room eq's both w/ inputs and outputs. a JBL dividing network model 5234 with ch. 1 & 2 inputs, ch. 1 lo and high out, same for ch. 2. the wires were clipped, but JBL highs out ch.1/2 match inputs on urei eq's. urei have a set of rca l/r on outputs, do these go to the amp? next, jbl has lo output R/L, where do these go? so output R/L form pre amp go to input R/L of 5234. one more thing, the speaker cables coming out of the enclosures have a total of 7 wires divided into 2 groups. 1 has white, black and white w/ black band. 2 has red,orange,green, and blue. do i attach these into L/R rca to the back of the amp? i have 2, 400 wpc monoblock amps for the low end, and 1 i could use for both speakers high end. please help!!!!!!!!!!!!

regards

subwoof
06-08-2008, 11:22 AM
without the factory wiring harness / crossover assembly you are dead in the water.

Those are 4 way speakers and all you have is a single 2 way crossover ergo you would need at least 3 of them and it would be a mess to wire and EQ.

Take inventory of what you have and post pictures. Only *then* can the rebuilding begin. It's gonna be a fairly expensive undertaking..:(

sub

rj2077
06-08-2008, 12:01 PM
i will post pictures shortly, camera is recharging. i was told that other than the amps, all electronics were sent. that was how it was wired in the studio. it is sunday and they are closed. i sure was hoping to have a listen..

regards

John
06-08-2008, 12:36 PM
All you need is a pair of NOS 3107 xovers or a custom pair of new CC 3107 xovers. Not that expensive at all. :blah:

rj2077
06-08-2008, 12:45 PM
ok, who has some for sale? so, do i just sell all that other stuff? really, i need help. my wife will have a cow, if she finds out these are not plug and play. i just passed it by, by saying it is an early fathers day gift.

regards

John
06-08-2008, 12:50 PM
First thing is we need pictures. :D

Allanvh5150
06-08-2008, 12:53 PM
Check this out. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20687&highlight=3107

:)

rj2077
06-08-2008, 02:09 PM
here it goes.

regards

rj2077
06-08-2008, 03:07 PM
GREAT NEWSSSSS!!!!!!!!! i removed one of the woofs and the x-over is inside!!! i will get the wires sorted out and plug into the back of the amp. i do not see a x-over switch, is this ok? i just thought i would share other pics.

regards

rj2077
06-08-2008, 03:58 PM
listen, i am still learning about setting up properly, but these sound so much better than my 4343's!!!!! got them running direct into the amp. if IGNORANCE IS BLISS, SO BE IT.... i am ecstatic right now!!!!WOOOOOO--HOOOOOOOOO.


best regards

SMKSoundPro
06-08-2008, 04:16 PM
DON'T STOP!!!!!!!

YOU'RE DOING GREAT!!!!!

Are you running the 4350 using only the internal crossovers?

Scott.

speakerdave
06-08-2008, 05:11 PM
I believe those speakers are biamp only, using the crossover you found inside for the midbass/treble and the treble/tweeter frequency dividing, and the 5234 external, high level, to divide the frequencies between the woofers and the internal crossover. The cards in the 5234 say 4350 Lo, which probably refers to the low crossover point (about 290-300 Hz). The outputs from the 5234 would feed two separate power amps per channel, one connected through the input panel directly to the woofers and one going to the connection for the internal crossover. It looks to me as though you have everything you need as long as you have enough amps and have everything wired correctly (which is still a question, I think).

David

Robh3606
06-08-2008, 05:28 PM
Here's a page from the tech manual

Rob:)

rj2077
06-08-2008, 06:20 PM
ok, i have things wrong. i am only using the internal x-over at this point. can i damage the LF drivers? i have the amps needed. they sound ok to me...please continue to help. pre amp output to the input of the jbl div. network?HF jbl output to the urei eq.input? and out of the eq to the top end HF amp? LF output of jbl network straight to a set of amps powering the LF?

would this be right? can i cont. to listen through the existing x-over? just for a bit longer...

regards

speakerdave
06-08-2008, 06:53 PM
No, eq first if you're going to use them, but I wouldn't. Get your setup straightened out without them first, then add them if you want.

If you're just using the internal crossover, I don't know how you are using your woofers, unless they are paralleled in somehow.

Pre amp to 5234, high out to HF amp to internal crossover; 5234 lo out to low freq amp to woofers.

David

rj2077
06-08-2008, 08:28 PM
no, i wont hurt anything? or no, stop listening to them, you will damage something? ok, i will get the 5234 tied in. i have not done so yet. it really sounds ok. if you look at the pic below the one of x-over, you can see where the LF drivers are wired in parallel inside the box. the green/black wires go to the LF drivers.

regards

speakerdave
06-08-2008, 08:49 PM
no, i wont hurt anything? or no, stop listening to them, you will damage something? ok, i will get the 5234 tied in. i have not done so yet. it really sounds ok. if you look at the pic below the one of x-over, you can see where the LF drivers are wired in parallel inside the box. the green/black wires go to the LF drivers.

No you don't put the crossover before the EQ. If you did you would need four of them, wouldn't you? Think, once!


first, my wife said nothing, but i can see it in her eyes...lol . . . .

Personally, since you brought it up, I think you need to fix this first.

Thanks for inviting me to look at your photos, but I can only see so much in them. You look. Look at all the wires in the box and look at the page Rob posted for you and make sure your speakers are wired like that. Notice there are two sets of binding posts on the back of the speaker. There should be no link between them either inside or outside the enclosure. You must have a separate amplifier, connected from the low outputs of the 5234 and connected to the lower set of binding posts on the back of the speakers, for the woofers to play correctly. If you don't have this you are probably just listening to the 12", the treble horn and the tweeter. If you don't have the second amplifier for the woofers, connected as I said, and you are hearing sound from the woofers, they are connected improperly, and you need to figure out what is what.

David

sweetliberty
06-08-2008, 09:31 PM
rj2077
As long as your top end is wired correctly you can't damage any of the speakers. You don't want to send LF signals meant for the 12" to the comp driver or tweeter. The 12" has a stiff suspension - you would have to use massive power to make them bottom out.
Before buying a second amp I used my 4350's full range in parallel without any problem.

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 10:11 PM
ok, i have things wrong. i am only using the internal x-over at this point.



Before buying a second amp I used my 4350's full range in parallel without any problem.Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall that would mean that you have two 15" woofers and the 2202 all playing through the midbass and until the 15s naturally peter out. I would expect that to significantly color the sound.


....these sound so much better than my 4343's!!!!! got them running direct into the amp. if IGNORANCE IS BLISS, SO BE IT.... i am ecstatic right now!!!!WOOOOOO--HOOOOOOOOO.Apparently it is. :applaud: Just think how good they will sound.

I noticed in one of your pics a Threshold SL10... with a preamp that is that refined, I am afraid pouring it's signal into a cheap opamp based PA crossover will be a bit of a step backwards. You may want to consider your options here.


Widget

sweetliberty
06-09-2008, 05:48 AM
[quote=Mr. Widget;212092]Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall that would mean that you have two 15" woofers and the 2202 all playing through the midbass and until the 15s naturally peter out. I would expect that to significantly color the sound.

Yes not the ideal and I wouldn't recomend it for that reason. However as I was saying no damage to the speakers will result.

Ron

rj2077
06-09-2008, 09:52 AM
speaker dave, thank you for your initial input. i dont like the tone of your last post. i am asking for help, if you wish to give it to ME, please do so without a scolding tone. i have never done this before, regardless of how elementary this may be to you..... thank you

widget, what do you suggest i use downstream of the pre-amp? exact models, would be appreciated.

yes the 15's are tied in through the 12 in. drivers. when i get home tonight, i will wire in the 5234. and have a listen.

are these things more efficient than the 4343's, they sound like it.

thank you all for your help, it is much needed.

regards

Robh3606
06-09-2008, 10:12 AM
The set-up is really not that difficult. Don't let it intimidate you just take your time. All you have to do is run the pre-amp outs to the active crossover inputs. They you have paired left and right High and Low frequency outputs that feed the amplifiers for the woofers and the balance of the system. Get the crossover manual off the JBL Pro site. It will make things easier. You can also get the manual for the Urei EQ's there.

Rob:)

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/JBL-5233_5234.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/UREI-539.pdf

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 10:53 AM
. . . . ME . . . .

OK, got it.

Tim Rinkerman
06-09-2008, 10:59 AM
Hey Rj....
You sound like somebody who just stole an airplane and now you are looking for someone to tell you how to land it...

robertbartsch
06-09-2008, 11:22 AM
...every time I bring some big stuff into the house, I hear a bunch of sh##.

...your wife must be an angle.

Anyway, my biggest score to date would be some 15s with compression drivers. Wow, I can't imagine a huge system like yours in a house setting.

Question:

1. Do these things really provide better sound than some of the smaller studio monitors?

2. What amps are you using to drive these; I assume they can produce some fairly high SPLs with moderate power, but they must cook with big power; right?

hjames
06-09-2008, 11:24 AM
Hey Rj....
You sound like somebody who just stole an airplane and now you are looking for someone to tell you how to land it...

rj2077 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=9795)

Pay no attention to these folks, you just enjoy the heck out of those Monsters! Is that the ebay pair that was said to be from the Copa?

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 11:26 AM
...your wife must be an angle . . . .

angel

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 11:39 AM
rj2077 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=9795)

Pay no attention to these folks, you just enjoy the heck out of those Monsters! . . . .

Doh!!! Heather!!! He was making progress, and now this!!!

robertbartsch
06-09-2008, 11:52 AM
My X-mass party was held at the Copa in 1998. ...a complete dump with rats crawling around (really!) .... if any speakers survived that environment, they probabaly had their voice coils chomped on by rodents....

Buyer beware....

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm guessing the speakers are fine. The intermediate owner apparently had only one amp. Once our man in Texas gets the cobbed wiring straightened out his eyes will widen for sure.

As Widget says, in the long run an improved crossover would pay dividends, but for NOW, getting the 5234 wired in will be a considerable step forward.

RJ should also be aware that JBL used non standard pin assignments for xlr connectors, and if he goes into an xlr jack on a non JBL power amp he should use the screw connections on the back of the 5234 and observe standard pin assignments. Refer to manual for further details.

David

Robh3606
06-09-2008, 12:18 PM
1. Do these things really provide better sound than some of the smaller studio monitors?

Depends on what you are looking for. If want a system with more modest SPL capacity that will image better and is more WAF look into 4313's. There is nothing wrong with the smaller systems. In many ways they have distinct advantages in a home setting.


Rob:)

johnaec
06-09-2008, 12:19 PM
RJ should also be aware that JBL used non standard pin assignments for xlr connectors, and if he goes into an xlr jack on a non JBL power amp he should use the screw connections on the back of the 5234 and observe standard pin assignments.Look at his pic of the back of the 5234 in this message: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=212042&postcount=8

No XLR's, and it's not even balanced, so he shouldn't have any problems. (I didn't know 5234's were even available this way...)

John

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Look at his pic of the back of the 5234 in this message: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=212042&postcount=8

No XLR's, and it's not even balanced, so he shouldn't have any problems. (I didn't know 5234's were even available this way...)

John

OK. That's good. When were the xlr's put in, 5234A? Even the ones that have them are not really balanced, either.

rj2077
06-09-2008, 01:41 PM
tim, i wouldn't know, never stold a plane before..

robert, to me they sound good. sure, smaller speakers would integrate better in a home environment. but i got a good deal, so i went for it. i have tried L-65's, L-250's, century 100's, AR-9's, ALTEC malibu's, ALTEC model 14 & 19, DQ-10 & 30's, YAMAHA ns-1000 & 1000 M's, 4430's, 4343's and many others. in my home, to my ears, they were more detailed than the 4343's at very low volumes. have not cranked them up yet....

i will use 2 ADCOM GF 555's switched to mono 400wpc for the LF. and either 1 THRESHOLD stasis 500 for the HF. or 2 SCOTT tube mono-blocks 35wpc for the HF, i will try both.

Heather, these were bought from a studio in NY. i just got them sunday morning.

do these make sense, in a family room? for one, i don't care... how many things have i done/or not that made sense. i have worked OT for some time, got the funds together, and jumped on a pair. i have some everest 550000 coming soon as well. it is a good time in my life right now, THANK GOD!!!!! if i get tired of them, i will sell them at that time.

once all is wired correctly, i will provide more details.


regards

robertbartsch
06-09-2008, 01:58 PM
It is interesting that they came from NYC. I saw some smaller studio monitors from a NYC mixing studio last week on E-Bay; I live in Wechester NY, so I was mildly interested.

The seller, in this case, seemed very inflexable, however, on delievery stating that you needed to come to the 23rd floor in NYC with at least two people and pick up the boxes and that he would not assist getting them out to the street or loaded in your truck (??) in any way.

Is that what you had to do to get them to your house?

rj2077
06-09-2008, 02:16 PM
it may be the same person. mine were on the 10th floor. seller stated, that he would not help in any way. i hired an antique moving company to pick-up and deliver. that was pricey in itself. but all turned out well. robert, i have not heard any 4315's, but if space is a factor, these may be a good option. they are a whole lot cheaper as well. i have read good things about them, but as you know, every speaker has faults/shortcomings of some type. i would highly recommend some 4430's as well.

regards

hjames
06-09-2008, 02:34 PM
i will use 2 ADCOM GF 555's switched to mono 400wpc for the LF. and either 1 THRESHOLD stasis 500 for the HF. or 2 SCOTT tube mono-blocks 35wpc for the HF, i will try both.

Heather, these were bought from a studio in NY. i just got them sunday morning.

do these make sense, in a family room? for one, i don't care... how many things have i done/or not that made sense. i have worked OT for some time, got the funds together, and jumped on a pair. i have some everest 550000 coming soon as well. it is a good time in my life right now, THANK GOD!!!!! if i get tired of them, i will sell them at that time.

once all is wired correctly, i will provide more details.

regards

No no - I truly meant no insult, my thought was - you have these magnificent speakers in your home now ...
others may be envious., but - just take some time and get them set up right and ... enjoy!

I'd come over to help & listen if you weren't quite so far away!

rj2077
06-09-2008, 02:53 PM
heather, i know you meant no insult.. i am sorry if i replied in such a way. i know you were asking if these were from the copa, these are not. if i remember correctly, those went overseas. i should figure it out tonight.

thank you much, jose

hjames
06-09-2008, 02:59 PM
heather, i know you meant no insult.. i am sorry if i replied in such a way. i know you were asking if these were from the copa, these are not. if i remember correctly, those went overseas. i should figure it out tonight.

thank you much, jose

Sure - the folks here helped me get my system setup in biamp mode, and with the quality of amp-gear you have ... they should sound real fine! Good luck with that!

rj2077
06-09-2008, 08:23 PM
well folks, it is done. sounds twice as nice!!! i have the Threshold on HF, 2 adcoms GF 555 on LF. very detailed wall of sound, these blow away the 4343's. surprisingly, the HF does not sound edgy with the threshold amp. i only wired the 5234, i may try the urei eq's later.

thank you all for your help. much appreciated.

regards

speakerdave
06-09-2008, 10:36 PM
Nice!

Mr. Widget
06-09-2008, 10:53 PM
widget, what do you suggest i use downstream of the pre-amp? exact models, would be appreciated.Bryston 10B. Pass Labs XVR 1, or perhaps one of the many offerings from Marchand.

I haven't tried either of these vintage designs with the 4350 myself, but in the systems that I have used them in both the John Curl designed Symmetry ACS 1 and the Dahlquist LPS-1 are both very transparent. Both of these designs have a first order passive high pass filter combined with a second order active low pass filter. These can both be found on eBay in the sub $500 range and are far superior sounding to the Ashly, Rane, JBL, etc., etc... crossovers out there.


well folks, it is done. sounds twice as nice!!!Excellent!

I tend to be a bit cool on the 4350, but I readily admit it does have incredible dynamic impact and for some types of music it may be about as good as it gets. Glad you're making them work for you.


Widget

SMKSoundPro
06-09-2008, 11:03 PM
OUtstandingJob, and great perserverence!

I saw my first pair of 4350's hanging in a disco down on Alaskan Way in downtown Seattle in 1988. They were hanging from the rafters and were just...THERE!

I recall having an epiphany right there. Bow down to the MONSTER monitors! "I am not worthy!" I exclaimed.

I, since, Have never heard or have seen a pair in person. I have been VERY interested to aquire a pair, or make a clone.

Probably will never happen.

Congratulations on your 4350 purchase!!! Please tell us how they sound, and how much you enjoy them!

Signed,

Living Vicariously Though You!

cooky1257
06-10-2008, 01:26 AM
Hi all,
Am I the only one to notice the slot @90 deg?
Also Rj you appear to have lots of speakers all in the same room, when I used my biggun's with other large monitors in the room the large cone movements on the unconnected pair was very surprising and must've acted as a second soundsource.
Lucky man I'd say!
Cooky

Fred Sanford
06-10-2008, 04:26 AM
Hi all,
Am I the only one to notice the slot @90 deg?
Also Rj you appear to have lots of speakers all in the same room, when I used my biggun's with other large monitors in the room the large cone movements on the unconnected pair was very surprising and must've acted as a second soundsource.
Lucky man I'd say!
Cooky

I noticed the rotated 2405, it also looks like it's in a new opening, no?

je

rj2077
06-10-2008, 08:33 AM
these were soffet mounted vertically in a studio, so the UHF driver would have been vertical. you can move the HF drivers on either left/right side, there are slots for both.

i rent an air conditioned storage where i keep 90% of my gear. i rotate often. i wont be doing that with these monsters. i have a spare room in the house, where i keep my GRAILS... these can be items that may not be much, but i like them.

widget, thank you for the info. i will look into these and buy one soon. if you had to pick one, which would it be?

i have a set of signature series vandersteen speakers, very laid back, very smooth, great with jazz. all in all, the 4350's are better.

in audio karma forum, one posted that in an audition, most preferred some yamaha ns-1000's over some l-250's. i have both, to my ears the yamahas dont come close. if i listen to mine, i sit them on top of B-380's and bi amp. or i dont listen to them at all.... in the end all is a compromise.

best regards

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 09:43 AM
widget, thank you for the info. i will look into these and buy one soon. if you had to pick one, which would it be?
Cost no object, I'd go with the Pass Labs. If money was an issue, and it usually is, it would depend on what deals I came by along the way. All of the crossovers I mentioned are excellent. I have owned most of them at one time or another and have heard the others on multiple occasions. I have also owned a long list of others that I wouldn't recommend. The one I have the least experience with is the Marchand line. I have heard them a few times, but they were in systems that I wasn't familiar with. The systems sounded good and they are highly regarded by others.



i have a set of signature series vandersteen speakers, very laid back, very smooth, great with jazz. all in all, the 4350's are better.I don't find that hard to believe. I have heard several Vandersteens over the years. They typically image very well, but are far from dynamic and don't have the spark of excitement that many JBLs offer.

That said, I am guessing that holographic imaging isn't one of your requirements. There are many great speakers that do not offer this type of 3-D experience. The 4350s are in this camp. While we can and have debated the merits of this type of reproduction and other "hi-fi effects", I am one who does love a deep and wide soundstage where each instrument lives in it's own bit of holographic space. There are precious few speakers that offer excellent imaging of this type and also present an exciting and dynamic life like presentation. I can't think of any that are remotely affordable. Definition of remotely affordable:<$5-10K


Widget

rj2077
06-10-2008, 10:56 AM
widget, i am just a simple man. i personally do not know any audiophiles where i can audition systems that are holographic. mainly, i do not have trained ears to pick up on all those nuances and subtle details, that many cherish/talk about. maybe one day i can go to a audio convention, and audition some of those high end systems. i have 5-10k, which speakes are holographic? have you noticed, i am full of question?....lol... i need to stop that...

these, 4350's do image well. or, good enough for me.

best regards

grumpy
06-10-2008, 11:04 AM
these, 4350's do image well. or, good enough for me.Be happy... the path that includes imaging/soundstaging excellence (or enhancement,
in some cases), is a greedy, and often envious mistress.

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 12:32 PM
Be happy... the path that includes imaging/soundstaging excellence (or enhancement,
in some cases), is a greedy, and often envious mistress.:yes:



Widget

rj2077
06-10-2008, 03:12 PM
thank you grumpy. wise words. guys, these DO sound gooooood.

widget, i looked for some networks on e-pay, but none that you mentioned at this time. i will look into audiogon. i did see a picture of the pass labs, those are sweet looking. what do these go for in the used market?

now, for the next trick. my wife says" you got your early fathers day gift ",
the everest should be getting here in a week or two, how am i gonna explain those? i will keep you all posted....lol....

best regards

mech986
06-10-2008, 04:24 PM
now, for the next trick. my wife says" you got your early fathers day gift ", the everest should be getting here in a week or two, how am i gonna explain those? i will keep you all posted....lol....

best regards

When's your birthday? :D

Congrats on getting the 4350's and progressively setting them up. Every adjustment is like setting up a race car - you get closer and closer to what seeing what they can do, and sometimes you get a leap of performance. You might consider moving the 2405 tweeters back up to their original top vertical position and put the blockoff plate on the outer hole. You have to try it to see if there might be improvement in soundstage and imaging.

Good Luck!, especially with the wife!!

Regards,

Bart

rj2077
06-10-2008, 06:14 PM
i will rotate them this weekend and see what that does to the sound. all openings have a block off plate already.

suggestions on cc x-overs. will they make a big difference over stock?

regards

mbd7
06-10-2008, 06:44 PM
This is obliviously a custom pair of 4350's (if indeed that’s what they are). From the ebay pictures they were installed vertically... this caused the unique way these speakers were customized and therefore the extra 2405 placement was created. So unless you're going to install these speakers just like the prior owners you need to put the 2405 (slot tweeters) back where they belong. Along with all the rest of the barrage of knowledge & information you’ve received this is just the basis to start from.
Texas… it’s just not a state… it’s a state of mind!

mbd7
06-10-2008, 06:49 PM
Does 1980 verses 2008 technology make a difference?
Ask the guys over at NASA...


cc x-overs. will they make a big difference over stock?

rj2077
06-10-2008, 07:21 PM
you are right. there are 2 positions for the horn and the UHF left/right side. they made a hole to mount the UHF further. i did not notice that before. i will try the tube amps on these next.

widget, there is a john curl design x-over on e-pay. would you recommend that item?

regards

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 08:45 PM
widget, there is a john curl design x-over on e-pay. would you recommend that item?I can't speak for that auction, but yes I would seriously consider the Vendetta crossover.


Widget

rj2077
06-11-2008, 03:06 PM
thank you all for your help. some of the information given, is beyond me. my wife and i have 5 great kids( same wife).. of which one is in college, 2 play baseball, 1 in dance school, and a 6 month old.. i dont have the time, or wont make the time for some of this technical stuff. if any of you have any simple suggestions that would improve these 4350's, please feel free to chime in and share with me. thank you all....

best regards

SMKSoundPro
06-11-2008, 06:02 PM
Texas… it’s just not a state… it’s a state of mind!


Well I dunno.

If you cut Alaska in half...

Texas would THEN be the 3rd largest state!

ROll on Alaska oil and fishing wealth...

Roll on!!

Just having some fun at a Texan's expense. (its what we do up here.)

Scotty.