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Citation
05-30-2008, 01:28 PM
See this link:
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/category.aspx?CatId=BFS&Language=ENG&Country=JP&Region=JAPAN

Japan has JBL speaker series (Real studio monitors) that you cant bye in the US and Europe!

Why?

/Martin, Denmark

JBLnsince1959
05-30-2008, 01:39 PM
See this link:
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/category.aspx?CatId=BFS&Language=ENG&Country=JP&Region=JAPAN

Japan has JBL speaker series (Real studio monitors) that you cant bye in the US and Europe!

Why?

/Martin, Denmark

because they buy them.. Big time...

Guido
05-31-2008, 02:39 AM
From time to time you can buy them in Europe

http://www.audiomarkt.de/_markt/item.php?id=6028960927

Ian Mackenzie
05-31-2008, 03:11 AM
No Array series mentioned.

Maron Horonzakz
05-31-2008, 06:30 AM
Array series ??? Who wants a speaker that resembles a Ford Edsel.:D

Rolf
05-31-2008, 03:45 PM
Array series ??? Who wants a speaker that resembles a Ford Edsel.:D

:rotfl:Agreed. Nothing is better in the ARRAY that has not been done before.

jaynemo
06-06-2008, 08:45 AM
Most of the JBL fanatics here is the USA are busy spending thier money on 30 year old speakers.
:blink:

4313B
06-06-2008, 09:34 AM
Japan has JBL speaker series (Real studio monitors) that you cant bye in the US and Europe!

Why?


because they buy them.. Big time...Yep!


No Array series mentioned.


Array series ??? Who wants a speaker that resembles a Ford Edsel.:DThe designer. I don't think they look any worse than all those silly looking Cat in the Hat systems people blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on and then act proud of.


:rotfl:Agreed. Nothing is better in the ARRAY that has not been done before.I suppose Greg could get on here and waste his precious time letting you know exactly what is wrong with the 4343 but he's actually busy. Besides, what would it matter? One either likes them or one doesn't.


Most of the JBL fanatics here is the USA are busy spending thier money on 30 year old speakers.
:blink:You nailed it.

Let me put forth one question. How long do you think JBL Consumer is going to continue supporting legacy loudspeaker systems? The current guesstimate is, not much longer. That should convert a whole bunch of people to "part out" specialists.

hjames
06-06-2008, 09:45 AM
Let me put forth one question. How long do you think JBL Consumer is going to continue supporting legacy loudspeaker systems? The current guesstimate is, not much longer. That should convert a whole bunch of you to "part out" specialists.

Hey, if they look good and they sound good and people can afford them,
they should sell well! (yeah, I know thats asking a lot... !)

4313B
06-06-2008, 10:00 AM
Hey, if they look good and they sound good and people can afford them,
they should sell well! (yeah, I know thats asking a lot... !)Well, I think we are going to see prices go up on all the vintage stuff. I can see little LE5-2's going for $500 to $1,000 each. :p JBL probably should have killed off support for alot of their legacy products years ago before it was too late. In hindsight it was probably a bad idea to offer such a fantastic resource for legacy products.

Mr. Widget
06-06-2008, 10:01 AM
Hey, if they look good and they sound good and people can afford them,
they should sell well! (yeah, I know thats asking a lot... !)Nope.

Times have changed. In the 1950s many people became fascinated with the notion that they could have decent sound in their homes and were willing to put up with 6-10 cu ft monsters in order to achieve it... then along came AR and their ~2 cu ft acoustic suspension speakers and most speakers shrunk and anything larger than that was considered too large... then along came mini and then micro sized speakers with subs and anything larger than a box of Kleenex was considered too large... today anything larger than a Bose micro cube system is just not acceptable with 95% of the market. ...and considering the fact that most people are playing MP3 files anyway, why bother with a system that will showcase just how bad it sounds? The market has spoken. People do not share our passion. Most people would simply not allow a pair of Everest IIs in their home even if JBL was giving them away.


Widget

4313B
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Great post! :yes:

I think you pretty much put it to bed.

hjames
06-06-2008, 10:17 AM
Great post! :yes:

I think you pretty much put it to bed.

So we are the last of a dyin' breed - when we are gone no one will want big speakers ... but I don't wanna give them up yet!

Maron Horonzakz
06-06-2008, 10:19 AM
Yup that hits the nail on the head,,, I would rather go see and listen to a live musiction than sit in my MAN CAVE listening to a reproduction.:D

Hoerninger
06-06-2008, 11:23 AM
Once I closed my eyes and listenend to the Array 1400.
It was fine, just a modern speaker.
As it fits into my room (space, furniture, windows)
I would like to have it.
Until now I was counting my thalers.
But I suppose I only have to
open my arms wide?
_________
Peter

PS: Germany has been preserved of a Ford Edsel. ;)

4313B
06-06-2008, 11:45 AM
So we are the last of a dyin' breed - when we are gone no one will want big speakers ... but I don't wanna give them up yet!No one wants big computers taking up entire rooms anymore either. And CRT's are so last century, etc.

I suspect some people will still do whatever they can to build their own gigantic sound systems for whatever reasons they see fit.

SMKSoundPro
06-06-2008, 12:13 PM
You can't please a nightclub with a box of Kleenex sized speakers. It just does not happen.

4313B
06-06-2008, 01:02 PM
You can't please a nightclub with a box of Kleenex sized speakers. It just does not happen.JBL Pro has the correct gear for commercial applications.

AltecLansingFan
06-06-2008, 01:05 PM
Times always changes and people are always changing.
*****************************************

A lot off people today 'go for' the small cheap plastic trash, stupid, they must learn, maybe it takes some time, but at the end most people know, big quality stuff sounds much better.

Quality wins at the end.
******************

rj2077
06-06-2008, 01:47 PM
maybe we need to share our passion with others, not only within this forum and others like it. my kids and nephews are very involved with my audio passion, when i make changes, i get them involved with the addition and audition of the latest purchase. sure we listen to some of THEIR music, but that can be fun too.....i work in the construction industry, crude oil storage tank repair/build to be exact. talk about a bunch who could care less about "critical listening", once i started sharing/exchanging ideas of our hobby with them; well, lets say more than a few have a set up in now...lol. before i bought my 4343's, i almost bought a set of the new monitors, i could not audition them, so i bought the 4343's.

sorry so winded

John
06-06-2008, 01:53 PM
I don't think they look any worse than all those silly looking Cat in the Hat systems people blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on and then act proud of. :applaud:





I suppose Greg could get on here and waste his precious time letting you know exactly what is wrong with the 4343 but he's actually busy.

Not to mention the 4345,4350 :duck:

Hoerninger
06-06-2008, 02:21 PM
I suppose Greg could get on here and waste his precious time letting you know exactly what is wrong ...


Probably this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=110075

I can't belive all the interest in this 30 year old system.
___________
Peter

speakerdave
06-06-2008, 03:42 PM
In the past 45 years the cost of things has gone up by about a factor of ten. The Paragon in the '62 catalogue was $2250. Even allowing for the increased cost of the improved technology, the price of the Everest II, like a lot of other high end audio gear, seems excessive. There is a powerful conspicuous consumption element in that end of the market.

The mid level systems ( $15-25k ) seem to have kept pace with the consumer price index only, at the same time absorbing the cost of improved technology.

In '62 the LE15A was $129, the 150 $138, the 375 $228. That last was about a month's pay at my job at the university bookstore, almost two weeks pay after I went to work at Republic Steel. Multiply those numbers by ten to compare. Today the 2452SL, some would say a better driver, is $1315, the 2245 $565. The 2450SL is being sold off at $635. They still have some.

JBL's problem in the consumer driver market is that, for example, the 2235 can be had via cores and conekits, for less than $300 each, the LE15A for somewhat more. How many would pay the once mentioned $1500, five times as much, for the 1501Al if JBL chose to make it available? I think they would in fact sell some of those woofers here if they chose to do it, but whether it would pay the cost of ramping up to a presence in the market I doubt. Especially knowing that we have people posting here, for example, to get our advice on what Usher driver comes closest to the JBL 130A to avoid the cost of a USED real one. But to sell the 1501Al here would undercut their flagship system. What would be the point?

At the same time, JBL's problem in the low-middle consumer market is that finished systems from past years are still available on ebay, and often still supported by JBL. One of the effects of this is that many of the JBL systems people see are old technology. JBL may be seeing that its long loyalty to its customers is denying themselves their rightful place in the market for new systems.

Today the TAD alnico woofers retail for $750 to $850, the 4001 CD for $2150. These LIST prices are all less than the price of comparable '62 JBL drivers in '62 dollars, yet it is very easy to find posts on the various audio forums where people are complaining about the price of TAD, and apparently the pace of sales has not been enough to keep Pioneer active in that business.

All of these changes in the audio market, the conspicuous consumption of massively overpriced finished systems, the weakness in the middle range, the sacrificing of quality for penny pinching in the diy market, are changes in the market all of which are symptoms of the same thing, and that is the erosion and increasing economic discomfort of the middle class, and the bifurcation of the people financially into the haves and the have nots. People will spend money on an imitation of something they want as a form of denying they cannot have the real thing.

So, I agree with 4313B, if there is a classic JBL system you would like to own, go for it now, have some recones done, and maybe even lay in some spares. We're probably living in a bubble of opportunity for classic JBL.

David

Mr. Widget
06-06-2008, 04:54 PM
In the past 45 years the cost of things has gone up by about a factor of ten. The Paragon in the '62 catologue was $2250.
I agree with your premise... we tend to forget that the original JBL speakers were not a product for the masses. They were damned expensive. Your "regular guy" bought Magnavox and all of those many other long forgotten brands. I also agree that since these things were so well built and generally cherished that most have survived and today we have vast supplies of them on the used market.

This collection of available used drivers and systems does present a problem for JBL in that it is hard to compete with them... however, if there was much demand for them, the used market would go up and then JBL could consider staying in it. However, as I mentioned a few posts back... almost no one other than collectors or dedicated nut jobs want big brown boxes in their living space.



So, I agree with 4313B, if there is a classic JBL system you would like to own, go for it now, have some recones done, and maybe even lay in some spares. We're probably living in a bubble of opportunity for classic JBL.
This is probably true. As they get scrapped, Ziched, or blown up the numbers will shrink to a point where the demand will eventually raise their value. Especially for certain models.



Widget

Zilch
06-06-2008, 05:30 PM
The proper term is "Zilchified." :D

HEY, I haven't taken the SawZall to anything that wasn't already destined for the landfill.... :scold:

4345
06-07-2008, 05:10 AM
I think the company is a little bit lost. They are just part of the giant Harman Corp and have lost direction. They would rather work on something goofy like the array series or all these other crazy new speakers when the market really does not care for them.

I can't believe with all the development and marketing costs, that much of the consumer line is even profitable. Maybe someone at JBL can let us know if all their work makes the shareholders any money.

How can they not build a reproduction 2" alnico driver? Why not call it a 377 or 2442? Give it an updated diaphram. They would sell the heck out of them. With all the tube electronics and vintage lovers around the world, it is amazing the JBL does not market a driver like this.

How about a repro or replacement 150-4C?

The 4312 should still be on the market and making money for the company. I can't believe they could not sell a ton of them. All the expense in designing so many other new speakers is probably a big financial loser, while they let profits from what was the most succesful speaker they ever built slip through their hands.

I think much of the problem is that as JBL has grown and been bought etc. the home speaker division has lost touch with reality and profitability. Perhaps some tough economic times will lead them back to designing products we want to buy and push them to market them everywhere, including the U.S.

I don't mean to be too critical, but these are what I think are the reasons.

4313B
06-07-2008, 06:26 AM
They would rather work on something goofy like the array seriesI guess people really aren't getting it... The photo below is the prototype for the Array Series. If one is confused as to what Greg was after with this particular design then one can read his publications.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7113

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10641

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10644

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10642

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10643

http://www.jbl.com/array_series/default.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA


I can't believe with all the development and marketing costs, that much of the consumer line is even profitable.JBL Consumer isn't profitable and considerable steps are being taken to change that. It probably isn't my place to post anything more than that on a public forum. The information wouldn't do anyone any good anyway. What's done is done.
Perhaps some tough economic times will lead them back to designing products we want to buy and push them to market them everywhere, including the U.S.They are doing just that. The products you see for sale are selling. The problems JBL faces are the same problems every other large American corporation faces. Read the news about what large American corporations are doing about it. Welcome to the Global Economy.

Mr. Widget
06-07-2008, 11:00 AM
How can they not build a reproduction 2" alnico driver? Why not call it a 377 or 2442? Give it an updated diaphram. They would sell the heck out of them. I think it is called the TAD 4001.:D

Seriously... the TAD TD-4001 is exactly that and has been available since 1975. It is an excellent driver and I doubt that Pioneer makes any money on them. While a few hundred enthusiasts may sound like a ton of folks to us, the fact is that the market is just too damned small.


Widget

4345
06-07-2008, 07:26 PM
The Tad 4001 is not a JBL product. It would be like saying that Honda builds a Harley copy, so Harley should not sell classic bikes. If anyone should build this type of classic repro gear it should be JBL. I think the marketing done at TAD is terrible. I am not sure if they even have dealers in the U.S. JBL could and should sell 20 times what TAD does.

I am not sure if JBL consumer will ever be profitable with high end gear. The market is relatively small. However, it is important for JBL to keep their brand appeal. I may not buy a fortune worth of JBL gear new, but I do drive 2 cars with JBL sound systems. And yes, it was a consideration when making the purchase of these cars.

I think they could reduce their losses or perhaps even become profitable in high end systems by creating a classic or reproduction line. It would appeal to the Asian market and to the people like us. The new array series and other things look a lot like what other companies are doing. I want a big piece of rectangular walnut veneered furniture with a tweed grill. No I don't want to spend 60K on the new Everest, but about 10K for a pair of nice speakers would be fine.

Just my 2 cents.

Ian Mackenzie
06-07-2008, 10:02 PM
Tad are going to release a new consumer line according statements from the parent company..

If they use their existing Pioneer distribution it will be quite interesting.

Rolf
06-08-2008, 01:26 AM
I suppose Greg could get on here and waste his precious time letting you know exactly what is wrong with the 4343 but he's actually busy. Besides, what would it matter? One either likes them or one doesn't.



Regarding the 4343 vs the top Array, you are probably right regarding specs. But what does it matter if the 4343 sounds better? Not only in my ears, but for a lot of other people too.

It is the same with the DD66000 vs my 4343. When we had a listen to the DD66000, witch I talked about in an earlier thread, most thought the 4343's was better.

As most probably know, technical specifications and new inventions don't necessary make things (a speaker) sound better.

With that said, I am soon going to listen to the DD66000 properly set up, in a nice room. This is why I have not posted a conclusion yet.

4313B
06-08-2008, 06:05 AM
It is the same with the DD66000 vs my 4343. When we had a listen to the DD66000, witch I talked about in an earlier thread, most thought the 4343's was better.That's just tragic. You might want to retract that statement.
As most probably know, technical specifications and new inventions don't necessary make things (a speaker) sound better.Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the day.
With that said, I am soon going to listen to the DD66000 properly set up, in a nice room. This is why I have not posted a conclusion yet.I suspect that any conclusions posted about the DD66000 would be a day late and a dollar short at this point. It was a staggering success beyond the wildest imagination.

The Array and Everest comments have been kind of weird. I would think that people who visit this website would have preferred to have had certain people participate occassionally rather than try to piss them off. Oh well, whatever...

JBL 4645
06-08-2008, 06:22 AM
The Japanese are extremists they are, “fanatical about JBL” LOL.

I guess the Japanese think "J" stands for Japanese Bong Loudspeaker.:rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
06-08-2008, 06:44 AM
4313,

I think that is Rolf's black humour but we are all entitled to our opinions.

I seem to recall posting a while back that if you listen to something for long enough you will start to enjoy it no matter how bad it sounds (I wonder if Don stil has his model 19's?)

If I had my way I would send out acquaplas and CC kits to all members with stock 4343's or request they hire a wood chipper.

The tragic part of it is you apparently can't get the consumer drivers and parts anymore.

I think that makes your commentary on the subject somewhat academic.

So I guess those of us who can afford it will just have to bite the bullet in the end.

Ian

4313B
06-08-2008, 07:36 AM
4313,

I think that is Rolf's black humour but we are all entitled to our opinions.

I seem to recall posting a while back that if you listen to something for long enough you will start to enjoy it no matter how bad it sounds (I wonder if Don stil has his model 19's?)Yes, that's probably true.
The tragic part of it is you apparently can't get the consumer drivers and parts anymore.

I think that makes your commentary on the subject somewhat academic.It would seem so. I wonder what would happen if we put an order in for two dozen 1500AL's and 476Be's. :D

At least we can buy systems like the S4600 and S4800 which are modern versions of the legacy systems we know and love.

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 07:54 AM
At least we can buy systems like the S4600 and S4800 which are modern versions of the legacy systems we know and love.Oh can we? Where? ;)

4313B
06-08-2008, 09:12 AM
Oh can we? Where? ;)Contact these folks and ask them for a list of Dealers:

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/contact/index.html

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/s4600.html

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/s4800.html

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 09:33 AM
Contact these folks and ask them for a list of Dealers:

That is an interesting tact... if there was any real interest here, there would be a strong "gray market" with dealers in Japan streaming JBLs and drivers back to the US. To be sure there is a bit of that as we see from time to time people selling off Japan only systems here on Audiogon, but obviously there just isn't enough demand.

Sure many of you are saying, but they cost so much and shipping would make them even costlier, but that isn't the point. Up until recently many people were paying crazy premium prices for large SUVs. The auto companies were only too happy to charge a "stupid tax" on those products and so many Americans were happy and willing to pay the inflated prices for these "luxury" items... not so with JBLs. Americans have for the most part not been willing to pay for premium JBLs since the 70's era which actually ended in the early 80's.


Widget

hjames
06-08-2008, 09:57 AM
Contact these folks and ask them for a list of Dealers:

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/contact/index.html

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/s4600.html

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/s4800.html

Harman-Japan only??

Fricking worthless to US buyers!

Make them here and SELL them here!

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 10:07 AM
Harman-Japan only??

Fricking worthless to US buyers!How is that?

One of our forum members that I know of wanted a pair of 4338s so he flew to Tokyo, bought a pair and brought them home. It really isn't that hard. It only takes dedication.


Widget

4313B
06-08-2008, 10:45 AM
Harman-Japan only??

Fricking worthless to US buyers!There are no U.S. buyers. That's the whole point.

A company sells a product where there is a market.

Remember in the "good old days" when the United States was the dominant manufacturer of many items considered desirable? Remember how foreign markets began importing American made goods because they wanted them? Remember how everyone whined that the Japanese were taking our innovations and building better mouse traps? What brands of TV's sell in the United States today? What is the number one automobile manufacturer in the United States today? Who owns TAD that so many of you here are enamored with?

Well, times have changed, everyone is flocking to the emerging markets in droves. Heck, the emerging markets are even contentious. I got a kick out of this article the other day. Note the standing of the U.S. in Australia as well as the responses from Korea, India and Japan.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0607/p05s01-woap.html

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 10:50 AM
One of our forum members that I know of wanted a pair of 4338s so he flew to Tokyo, bought a pair and brought them home. It really isn't that hard. It only takes dedication.No disrespect intended here, Widget, but if they're made here but not even made available here, then what good it it talking about what American buying habits are or aren't? For what we've seen some of the old dinosaurs going for, $4000 for a modern three-way doesn't seem so outrageous. JBL needs to use these as flagships to boost name recognition in the USA to its previous level. How do they know they won't sell here if they won't try and what does it really cost them to try? Maybe I'd rather not go through Japan to buy an American-made product. If the problem is not having distributors or dealers willing to invest in inventory to let them be auditioned, then JBL should either give loaners to their dealers or let this line be sold direct to those that want them. Do I misunderstand or wouldn't this simply be extra profit for Harman without a middle-man dealer, for a product they already build here? If dealers don't want to fool with them, then let us buy them directly. I'd think the last thing they'd want is a reverse gray-market in a U.S.-made product. But then what do I know? :blink:

Ian Mackenzie
06-08-2008, 10:52 AM
Interesting,

Something does not add up for all the trading of hgh dollar value JBL /Altec systems/drivers on Ebay bought seemingly within the USA.

Perhaps the American Ebay crawlers are collectors or flippers as opposed to true audioholics like the Japanese?

Its ironic with the hub of hi end online and press audio publications based in the USA that such little coverage and even small sales are attributed to JBL compared to the Japanese / Asian Press.

4313B
06-08-2008, 10:54 AM
if they're made hereWell...

JBL needs to use these as flagships to boost name recognition in the USA to its previous level.I believe the following brand name has been posted numerous times here before - REVEL.

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 10:55 AM
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0607/p05s01-woap.htmlThanks for that. I often forget what a great paper the Christian Science Monitor is. One voice Rupert can't silence!

Ian Mackenzie
06-08-2008, 11:14 AM
I think that was a UK member but I could be wrong.

Well I think some stuff is sold (as new) in the USA to the 1% rich population but it ain't necessarily JBL. Within that 1% there is a lot of competition and those who really can afford it have stuff made for them by the likes of Alon Wolf http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/508int/

See Wolf's comments on dealers.

Ian

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 11:28 AM
See Wolf's comments on dealers.I agree, but then that's a boutique item aimed at a clientele that isn't in-touch with the reality of having to earn a living through actual work, in most cases. Not a market to ignore but that's above the demographic JBL aimed at in the Fifties, even adjusted for today, and they were successful then. Okay, with better marketing and management they would have been . . .

At least Wolf admits to being crazy: I did go and check screws on my fifty-year-old JBL, as well as some merely twenty-years-old, and they were all tight.

cooky1257
06-08-2008, 12:07 PM
Tannoy used to be a Harman company and under their stewardship nearly went bust.
A management buyout rescued what was left-including all the jigs fixtures and manufacturing plant.
Even tho' subsequently aquired by another multinational they recognised the value of their older systems(monitor Gold dual concentrics in particular)in the eyes of audio enthusiasts in the uk and far east and the high prices people were willing to pay for the vintage sound.
They launched the Prestige range-basically just updated and uprated Monitor Gold drivers, top of the range around $25k-they're selling very well in the far east and here's the rub they are also available in the uk.
Granted raw materials are (in the case of cobalt for example) no longer dirt cheap but most of the R&D has already been done.
After the hard times the management seems to understand you don't deliberately close off ANY market if you want to survive.
I'm with the posters who think JBL should do something similar.
Failing that if we all consciously inflated the value of our vintage gear the math would make more sense for JBL-the danger is the same inflation/effect could occur just by JBL withdrawing legacy support...

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Well...
I believe the following brand name has been posted numerous times here before - REVEL.That's not a flagship. JBL isn't Toyota needing a Lexus brand to move upscale, at least not to us old-timers. You don't see BMW trying a tie-in with a new brand, do you? (Rolls-Royce doesn't count since they keep them separate and, finally they're actually selling a handful.)

We need JBLs, not Revel (Didn't I used to assemble their model airplanes? ;)), and what we need are already being made here and sold in Japan. Why is this such a steep hill to climb? Are the Harman folks nutz? :blink:

There's no cost or downside involved in selling here what's already made here. And without distributors or dealers, they could sell them direct through this board at half the price they sell them for in Japan and still make the same money. S4600 for $2000 anyone? And that's the price per pair!

4313B
06-08-2008, 01:58 PM
There's no cost or downside involved in selling here what's already made here.I think at the very least they should offer the entire line for sale on the Harman/JBL website. Components too.

Revel (Didn't I used to assemble their model airplanes? ;))That's the first thing I thought of too.

Ducatista47
06-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Bearing in mind Cooky1257's post above, I'll repost my idiocy from another thread here. Consider it my unwelcome two cents worth. :D

At this point in history I feel the growth model that has served Harman so well until recently no longer serves JBL well. I would like to see the company bought out by employees, spun off as an independent. Perhaps with a marketing agreement.

For many years now the growth model of business has been touted as the way to survive in today's competitive World market. The truth is that it serves owners and CEO's who want to be very wealthy and are willing to incur huge financial risks to hit the jackpot with a corporation where all the money goes right to the top. No five to one Ben & Jerry's rule there!

JBL should end up like Nitto Bicycle parts in Japan, not like another brand of a conglomerate. Make only the good stuff and keep that reputation no matter what. That keeps brand loyalty, a far better long term strategy than greed. (Greed = "increase market share, increase market share..." A good working definition of the Growth Model of business.) Nitto does not have huge market share, but most who want the best go to their offerings. And are willing to pay more for it.

http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~nitto210/nitto-jpg.pdf (http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/%7Enitto210/nitto-jpg.pdf)
http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/%7Enitto210/conpany.html
http://www.yellowjersey.org/nitto.html

Clark

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 03:03 PM
No disrespect intended here, Widget, but if they're made here but not even made available here, then what good it it talking about what American buying habits are or aren't?You are confusing cause and effect. Americans are not buying the JBLs because they are hard to get here or even because they are costly... wealthy Americans as well as the rest of us have little interest in audio and buy very little of the mega dollar equipment seen in Stereophile. Essentially we few audio enthusiasts who long for the old days of stereo shops and big beautiful JBLs are dinosaurs. For some reason there are more of us dinosaurs in Japan and JBL has wisely marketed to them.


Widget

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 04:45 PM
You are confusing cause and effect. Americans are not buying the JBLs because they are hard to get here or even because they are costly... wealthy Americans as well as the rest of us have little interest in audio and buy very little of the mega dollar equipment seen in Stereophile. Essentially we few audio enthusiasts who long for the old days of stereo shops and big beautiful JBLs are dinosaurs. For some reason there are more of us dinosaurs in Japan and JBL has wisely marketed to them.And we know this how? From actual marketing failures? There are many successful business models of niche marketing. I'm most familiar with the automotive world so just let me say the best are not the best-selling or we'd all be lusting after an F100 Ford. Instead, BMW and others market to an intelligent upper demographic who appreciate the finer qualities of handling, safety, durability, and resale value even if they never use the first three during their lease term. The market for twenty-year-old BMWs is similar to what we have here with old JBL products.

So what does BMW do about it? They produce higher-volume sedans and coupes which support their niche marketing of highly specialized motorcycles and limited production coupes, roadsters, and M-badged high-performance cars. And they're successful at it. They even make people lust after a 500-hp sedan who only drive in Manhattan. They sell V12-powered sedans to CEOs which allows them to supply me with almost any part I need for my 45-year-old motorcycle. And they don't really skip the U.S. market with any product other than the cheapest, or their superb diesels——the latter an oversight that will end within the year.

So I repeat; if JBL don't have a dealer-body interested in representing a line that they sell in Japan for $4000/pair that's built in the USA, then why not at least sell them direct here in the U.S. for what they sell them to distributors in Japan without the shipping cost? I'll ask again, how many of you would pay $2000 for a pair of S4600s?

It's one thing to sit around and moan about what the American public will and won't do. BMW does it all the time saying we don't buy hatchbacks so they don't import their 3-door 1-series hatch here, yet they sell hundreds of thousands of Mini Coopers at the same price. Head in the sand? Self-fulfilling prophecy? Someone at JBL ought to be smarter than that. They've got the product already, what's the cost to at least try and place some here in their own country? All the rest is hogwash.

hjames
06-08-2008, 04:48 PM
Americans are not buying the JBLs because they are hard to get here or even because they are costly... wealthy Americans as well as the rest of us have little interest in audio and buy very little of the mega dollar equipment seen in Stereophile. Essentially we few audio enthusiasts who long for the old days of stereo shops and big beautiful JBLs are dinosaurs. For some reason there are more of us dinosaurs in Japan and JBL has wisely marketed to them.
Widget

Of course, if they don't/won't sell the audiophile /studio Monitor speakers they make in the US, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. How would they even know unless they sold them here?


I think at the very least they should offer the entire line for sale on the Harman/JBL website. Components too.
That's the first thing I thought of too.

Ya know, I suspect a lot of folks would stop fooling around with the ebay/used driver market if the real thing was readily available.

Seems like it would be worth a try, rather than give up on the US market and close down all old lines - or, is this perhaps just a slow end that started with the Northridge quake and has just been sliding into the can over all this time ...

Ian Mackenzie
06-08-2008, 04:53 PM
I dont think its a grey market or old farts buying the NEW gear anywhere.

Buying the new gear takes money and a high income

In Japan the JBL brand is iconic so much so they have their own range and systems are voiced accordingly. That is common knowledge and we know some members have exported very fine 43XX reproductions to keen buyers in Japan.

Sales of the upper end of audio equipment are also quite strong in South America and down here (per capita of population) because the spread of income is much much broader than the USA. You guys might chuckle that nothing happens down here in terms of sales. We your in for a surprise.

Len Wallis Audio has been a long time mover of lots of Krell over on Sydney's north shore.

http://www.lenwallisaudio.com/products/details.php?pid=1189


Here is a link to the JBL's Aussie distributor:

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=EVE&Language=ENG&Country=AU&Region=EUROPE

This is a link to another importer with their line of loudspeakers:

http://www.kedcorp.com.au/products/speakers-sound-system-home-entertainment-system-home-audio-australia.

Hifi is very much alive while Plasma and LCD large screens..are becoming a fast moving mass market item.

johnaec
06-08-2008, 04:53 PM
I think at the very least they should offer the entire line for sale on the Harman/JBL website. Components too.I agree with this too. It would add little to costs if they didn't have to support a dealer model.The question is - is production such that they could support stocking these cabinets/components ready for shipment, or would it need be more a supply/demand setup? In other words, components would be made available as requested, though there could be a couple month wait before the next batch is run? While there probably isn't a ton of profit in selling this stuff in the US, I don't see that it would hurt, and would go a long way toward reinforcing/reestablishing JBL as an A1 player in the home market.

John

Zilch
06-08-2008, 07:06 PM
So I repeat; if JBL don't have a dealer-body interested in representing a line that they sell in Japan for $4000/pair that's built in the USA, then why not at least sell them direct here in the U.S. for what they sell them to distributors in Japan without the shipping cost? I'll ask again, how many of you would pay $2000 for a pair of S4600s?Wishful thinking on both counts. JBL's not going to undercut their international trade.

Do we believe for a minute that JBL could or would sell new "Classic" components for the price of the recycled ones presently available?

You're obviouly not talking about US, either. The actual number of LHF members who were willing to spring lose the cash when the opportunity to purchase premium components has arisen can be counted on one hand.

There are members here who are in the business of reproducing the Classic systems as well. How many of US are their customers? :blink:

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 07:56 PM
Wishful thinking on both counts. JBL's not going to undercut their international trade.Ever priced electronics in Japan? If JBL builds, ships, and sells for a profit the S4600 (for instance) to distributors and dealers in Japan to the retail price point of $4000/pair, they could easily sell it here in the USA, without distributors and overseas shipping costs, for well less than that price. If we assume the problem with selling this stuff in the USA is they're unwanted by the general public to the extent that no dealer would ever stock them, then what do they have to lose?

I've been buying Valentine radar detectors direct from the manufacturer for decades. It's not a bad business model. Sure makes more sense than what JBL's doing with Best Buy. Apple Computer was forced to be their own retail operation, until the iPod made everyone want to become an Apple products dealer. And yet the computer business kept going up and up. Expensive? Yeah. A dedicated following? You bet. Fifty-percent of most university laptop sales to entering freshman? Who would have ever thought it possible. It takes vision and product. JBL just doesn't have the vision. They should. But they don't. They're wasting their most valuable assets; their reputation and their existing customer base.

Zilch
06-08-2008, 08:17 PM
... then what do they have to lose?Their international distributors, is what.

S4600 would sell for $4000 a pair, not half that.

Still have a market?

Not on LHF, for sure, nope.

I'm building a two-way version out of thrashed S99s here for less than $1500 a pair.

Right now listening to the "entry level" iteration built for half that, even.... :yes:

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 09:49 PM
Of course, if they don't/won't sell the audiophile /studio Monitor speakers they make in the US, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. How would they even know unless they sold them here?You guys, pardon me, and gals are funny... JBL did sell large monitors here. The market simply shrank away until the numbers couldn't support it.


And we know this how? From actual marketing failures? There are many successful business models of niche marketing. I'm most familiar with the automotive world so just let me say...Cars and audio are like apples and tuna. I have dozens of clients who drive cars that cost over $100K, and with few exceptions none have speakers that cost over $1K. They may have $800 speakers in 12 rooms, but they just don't want big brown boxes. Even the ones who do have expensive speakers, typically own the types of "audiophile" speakers that many forum members detest.

But, this is anecdotal evidence of a very small sample. The fact is, if there was a market for these types of speakers someone would be filling it and they would be available. It wouldn't be long before JBL would be getting calls from the few remaining audio dealers asking to sell big JBLs again.


Widget

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 10:08 PM
Cars and audio are like apples and tuna. I have dozens of clients who drive cars that cost over $100K, and with few exceptions none have speakers that cost over $1K. They may have $800 speakers in 12 rooms, but they just don't want big brown boxes. Even the ones who do have expensive speakers, typically own the types of "audiophile" speakers that many forum members detest.Apples and Tuna? Which proves what? :) Sure, and there are probably several here who spend $4k for huge old monitors and yet drive crap-wagons to the Super Wal-Mart. I see it all the time with owners of old Italian exotics; their hobby gets fed before the kids or their cars. And yet auto manufacturers still sell new product. Even with recession and disgusting fuel prices. BMW had it's biggest May sales volume ever in the USA last month. JBL can't sell a particle-board box with three speakers in it here, like they sell in Japan? Face it, they've forgotten how to market their product. Don't blame it on iPods, that's a lament for record-store owners. :D

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 10:21 PM
Apples and Tuna? Which proves what?


I see it all the time with owners of old Italian exotics; their hobby gets fed before the kids or their cars.


Even with recession and disgusting fuel prices. BMW had it's biggest May sales volume ever in the USA last month. You answered your own question. More Americans have a love affair with cars than with hi-fi.

But as I said, my data is only anecdotal. However I am surprised you are having such a hard time seeing my point that a small fraction of a tiny market is just too insignificant for the bean counters to care about. Now, if JBL were run by enthusiasts they would be tripping over themselves to sell those 10 pairs of speakers to like minded folks, but once you leave Northridge and get to the corporate offices, you won't find enthusiasts in many key positions.


Widget

BMWCCA
06-08-2008, 10:45 PM
I am surprised you are having such a hard time seeing my point that a small fraction of a tiny market is just too insignificant for the bean counters to care about. Now, if JBL were run by enthusiasts they would be tripping over themselves to sell those 10 pairs of speakers to like minded folks, but once you leave Northridge and get to the corporate offices, you won't find enthusiasts in many key positions.Oh I understand, but you're implying there's some rational behavior here I don't understand. I insist it's irrational to make a speaker here, sell it elsewhere, but make no attempt to tap even a small market they just might find here if they even tried to. It costs nothing. What are we, China? Mexico? The low-cost producer of products sold to wealthier countries? I understand bean-counters, and that's exactly the point (on which we seem to agree); that JBL has no marketing balls anymore. Might as well get sucked up like Altec and become just a name stuck on Chinese crap. All for lack of trying. Sad. I feel sorry for those great guys who work their butts off there trying to make something to be proud of.

I'm not asking for them to create a whole new product line, for chrissakes. Just to sell what they already make. Isn't there some value to additional sales of an existing product? Economies of scale? They need to go back to school.

If there's no market for big expensive speakers (and I'm not talking five-figures, but only four), then why when I visit my local Crutchfield store do I find tons of towers, some nearly 5-feet tall, with bunches of small woofers, and piles of subwoofers, from Klipsch, Mirage, and Polk? Why does a smart guy like Bill Crutchfield dabble in $7,000-a-side Thiel (sound like crap) speakers? He didn't become one of the wealthiest guys in the state wasting time on unprofitable ventures. There must be a market out there. You need not only to know how to reach it, you also have to try.

porschedpm
06-08-2008, 10:53 PM
..... The fact is, if there was a market for these types of speakers someone would be filling it and they would be available. It wouldn't be long before JBL would be getting calls from the few remaining audio dealers asking to sell big JBLs again.

You make a very important point, Widget. There are many, many entrepreneurs in the US and worldwide looking for profit opportunities. If the potential to sell Japanese Market JBL's was great enough, you can be sure someone or some company would be exploiting it. A good example is the new SMART car. Mercedes didn't think it worth their while to import the car to the US. Penske however thought there would be enough of a market, saw a profit opportunity and took advantage of it. If enough profit potential exists, someone will be there to tap it.

Mr. Widget
06-08-2008, 11:43 PM
A good example is the new SMART car.
Dammit... you got me there with an excellent car analogy. :banghead:


Bottom line as far at this thread goes. It is rather pointless for us to sit back and speculate on what makes sense and what doesn't in the US market. I am happy for the engineers at JBL who have had the opportunity to design and build exciting systems even if the average Joe here in the States never knew they even existed. As bad as that may seem if they didn't have the Japanese market there wouldn't be an Everest, K2, Everest II or any of the other large horn based systems that have been designed and manufactured in Southern California continuing the Lansing Legacy.

As far as the gripe about US made products being designed for export... with our trade imbalance it is too bad that more companies haven't been able to find their own overseas niche markets. JBL is manufacturing less and less in the US and even their Statement system the DD66000 isn't an entirely US made product. The days of JBL producing their speakers entirely in house are long gone.


Widget

merlin
06-09-2008, 02:24 AM
Ever since the term "high end" was first used in the eighties in relation to expensive American audio exotica, it has struck me that the term refers as much to appearance as to actual sonics.

Typical High End ( McIntosh, Levinson, Krell, AR, ) sounds nice looks good. Sonically it's easily bettered by a number of smaller brands from around the world, but they don't appeal to "high end " customers due to their lack of extruded brushed aluminum or blue lights. Same with speakers. The high end is made up of speakers designed first and foremost to look visually attractive - secondly to make a decent stab at accurate replay.

Japan is IME so far ahead of this High End product that it's laughable. It's fitting that a country that still cares about sound quality enjoys the delights of Tannoy DC's and large format monitors.

4345
06-09-2008, 05:29 AM
I nominate BMWCCA for the board of Harman. I agree with all you are saying. Revel, Array Series, etc. all not my cup of tea and does not help solidify JBL's reputation. They need a classic line with rectangular big boxes and walnut veneer.

Sure the market may not be big for a high end classic line, but according to 4313, they are losing money now. I wonder how much? So, they certainly have very little to lose. The classic line would cost very little to produce and stay in production a long time.

Ian Mackenzie
06-09-2008, 05:30 AM
My understanding is American cars (or should I say cars purchased in America) are quite cheap by gobal standards and we are talking millions of cars.

The key to car sales like so many other key purchase decisions is distribution. You cannot easily mail order a car unless someone is prepared to drive it to your door step. Unfortunately even if you are a multinational that does not buy you real estate or shelf space in a dealers show room.

The 3 important keys to marketing strategy are market segmentation, entry and timing.

Here is a USA based loudspeaker firm who has carefully assessed their marketing strategy and they are growing.

http://www.zuaudio.com/zu_contact_usa.htm

Within the USA they market direct out of their warehouse and via selected importers in overseas locations. You can actually buy on line.

Without actually asking them its reasonable to assume they figured local distribution would not work for them. Probably a combination of marketing costs in distribution, tight margins via wholesalers and retailors, employing a sales rep and patchy volume because of other competing brands eroding channel market share. Specialty manufacturers are also more cautious about how their product is sold.

Above the line marketing is via online magazines like 6moons.com where they have numerous awards and a strong presence at trade shows.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu/druid.html


The situation at JBL is a lot more complex but the principles are the same

Today they have lots of different businesses in different markets which is a very different situation to how JBL was placed in the 70's and a I dare say it comes down to economics. If the clock was turned forward on the 70's era to the times we live in now they would probably be doing something along the lines of Zuaudio in the hifi market if in fact they were still in business.

BMWCCA
06-09-2008, 07:14 AM
My understanding is American cars (or should I say cars purchased in America) are quite cheap by gobal standards and we are talking millions of cars.No V.A.T. for starters. And that many, if not most, "import" labels are built here, or in Mexico, or Canada. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, VW, Mercedes, BMW all build vehicles in North America for sale here. Heck, we don't even charge import duty on most vehicles not made here, and offer multiple loop-holes for avoiding what tariffs we do have in-place to the extent that Range Rovers were once (maybe still) imported as "cars" to avoid the truck import duty, while sold as "trucks" to avoid EPA requirements and "gas guzzler" tax. But remember, we're still using tax dollars in the USA to subsidize our oil companies! And it was only a couple of years ago we paid out tax refunds of tens-of-thousands-of-dollars each to people who purchased vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings of over 6,000 pounds, and used them for business", because . . . well, apparently because Republicans like to drive Chevy Suburban SUVs. (BMW took the hint and listed the GVWR for their X5 SAV at 6,001-pounds!) We even once had in place an import tariff on motorcycles over 1,000-CCs to protect domestic Harley-Davidson production and sales....

Physical location and dealerships are only important for cars since they require regular service, warranty repairs, and government regulations require that adequate parts stock and availability be maintained for a reasonable time period after production. None of this is required for speaker sales, as Harman has shown in their large on-line presence with direct sales and eBay clearances.

The Smart car is an anomaly. It's not that economical, performs terribly as a highway car, and has a poor suspension for in-town use. But it's cute and trendy. Mercedes didn't import the original Smart/A-class car because it was even worse, had safety issues, and wasn't up to quality standards. Penske didn't care about that and took a short-term view. The fact that the Smart car sells well now has little to do with economy or value and much to do with buyers wishing to make a visual statement of "green" concern to a public that is generally ignorant of what "green" is or what alternatives exist. My kids' '98 BMW 318ti regularly returns 36-mpg, carries four or five people, has a huge trunk, gets out of its own way, offers BMW-like safety and durability, and can cruise at 90-mph all day long.

Regardless, the JBL products we're discussing in this thread are already made here in the USA, JBL already has name recognition and distribution, and there really is no excuse for not making everything they make here available to consumers in the USA. Won't happen, but it's been fun talking about it like our opinion really mattered. :D

robertbartsch
06-09-2008, 11:48 AM
OK, well I bought some JBL home towers a few years ago.


....TOTAL junk IMO.


Do these new consumer products from JBL have square ribbon VCs and Alnico V magnets? Judging from the mediocore sound, I don't think so...

Anyway, I've worked M&A in business for >10 years and I have seen what happens to companies that are bought and re-sold numerous times by private equity firms.... This transforms them into worthless pieces of junk. Unfortunately, I suspect that has happened here.

Hey, look what happened to Altec; they made some marketing missteps but they did not deserve to die a slow painful death either.

JBL still has a lock on the cinema and concert sound equipment market, but this could change also.

4313B
06-09-2008, 11:55 AM
JBL still has a lock on the cinema and concert sound equipment market, but this could change also.Rumor is that Pro is changing too. We'll see in the next year or two what happens with the new CEO in charge.

Valentin
06-09-2008, 02:05 PM
Rumor is that Pro is changing too. We'll see in the next year or two what happens with the new CEO in charge.

Please tell us more about this rumor

of topic

do you have the tech sheets for the c500g midrage driver

oznob
06-09-2008, 04:46 PM
http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file=north_product_detail&iproduct_id=a7

I'm wondering if it would be possible for JBL/Harman to do "made to order" classic designs? Plantronics has done this with the Altec A-7 and others. Klipsch will build some of their classic speakers to order. My thought is the offerings initially should be based on past sales or current popularity of older designs. They could limit the offerings initially to a couple of speaker models to see if their is enough interest to continue the line. This could be done on an interim basis to gauge interest. I think there is a market for the 21st century edition of the L100, L200, L300.........:hmm:

BMWCCA
06-09-2008, 04:59 PM
I think there is a market for the 21st century edition of the L100, L200, L300.........:hmm:Well, maybe the L300.

But don't forget the 44xx that are driving the Japanese renaissance of JBL. And the "mini" monitors, too.

Rolf
06-10-2008, 12:24 AM
Hi all.

After reading the comments, made one myself earlier in the thread, I believe the brand is slowly but surly going down.

It's been a long time since JBL has made a speaker that can compete with with other of today's speakers in the same price range.

The "old" ones is still keeping up with many of them, but JBL don't want to make it like that anymore.

When the day comes and there is no more re-cone kits available for my speakers I am probably to old to care, or I buy something else. In the mean time I will enjoy the sound I like so much.

4313B
06-10-2008, 01:14 AM
In the mean time I will enjoy the sound I like so much.That's probably the best plan of action.

4313B
06-10-2008, 01:35 AM
Harman-Japan only??

Fricking worthless to US buyers!

Make them here and SELL them here!I decided to send off a quick note using JBL's website to see what the result would be.

"Hello, where can I purchase the S4600 or S4800 from?"

Here's the response:

Good afternoon and thank you for your inquiry. These are international
products and not available in the U.S. We apologize for the
inconvenience.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Vu Le
Internet Support Specialist
Harman Consumer Group
Northridge, CA


Whatever! :rotfl:

I guess the U.S. isn't part of the international community.

I thought about contacting a rep or two and asking but then I realized that I simply don't care.

Zilch
06-10-2008, 01:52 AM
I guess the U.S. isn't part of the international community.There were rumors in this forum that situation was going to change.

Maybe it was me that started them, tho.

[Or it all got moved to "Off Topic...." :p ]

Ian Mackenzie
06-10-2008, 01:55 AM
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=EVE&Language=ENG&Country=AU&Region=EUROPE

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=LS&Language=ENG&Country=AU&Region=EUROPE

The LS series looks interesting

4313B
06-10-2008, 02:06 AM
There were rumors in this forum that situation was going to change.I think that was before the incident last year followed by the upcoming retirement of Harman.

cooky1257
06-10-2008, 02:44 AM
All it takes is a little flexibilty ,common sense and basic marketing nouse...
UK pick up arm manufacturer SME had one of their customers 3009 series2 vintage arms in for full service recently-these are no longer made, on it's way back to the owner it disappeared in transit. Understandably the owner was upset now get this; SME only upped and manufactured a completely new vintage arm for him-now to me, that is a company that understands where it's money comes from, the power of good publicity and how to sustain a brand through tough times.
The point and the reason this is just about still OT is SME isn't part of some huge conglomerate where everyone is worried what the suit immediately above will say if he/she demonstrates some initiative and has the guts to say "yes" and not "no".

Rolf
06-10-2008, 09:00 AM
That's probably the best plan of action.

I do not understand all this hacking on me. I just say what I have experienced.

Well, here is a picture of my latest investment. If JBL continue this line, I probably go with them after my 4343B's are expired.

Enjoy.

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 09:23 AM
I do not understand all this hacking on me. Hi Rolf. After I read your previous post I almost posted the same comment as 4313B did. I am pretty sure that he isn't "hacking" on you. On the contrary, he and I think you made a very wise post.


Widget

4313B
06-10-2008, 09:25 AM
Hi Rolf. After I read your previous post I almost posted the same comment as 4313B did. I am pretty sure that he isn't "hacking" on you. On the contrary, he and I think you made a very wise post.


WidgetThank you! :yes:

Hoerninger
06-10-2008, 09:37 AM
... you made a very wise post.

Rolf,

I think so too. It is often said by regularly posters here ;) to listen what you have and enjoy. That is what I do too.
(Some things may change of course :) ).
__________
Peter

Robh3606
06-10-2008, 10:32 AM
I do not understand all this hacking on me.

Hello Rolf

I think we are all in the same boat. Once the cone kits go that's it. The JBL we are all so fond of is gone for sure. Maybe we will get lucky and there will end up being a Great Plains Audio for JBL's unless of course they dumpster all the kits. Geez what a waste that would be:barf:

Rob:)

Tim Rinkerman
06-10-2008, 12:26 PM
I read somewhere,maybe a reel to reel expert can back me up, when Studer was taken over by whoever owns it now, that hundreds of thousands of dollars of replacement parts, and stock parts for Studer machines were crushed.
It seems the world has shifted its priorities from making well though out quality products that lasted a long time, to who cares how long it lasts, we just need to sell more....Many of us came from depression era parents ( :wave:)who were brought up to get the absolute maximum use out of what ever you bought. Companies in the 40's,50's,60's....tried to provide the absolute best value for what you spent, they realized the importance of that era. People worked hard for their money, and wouldn't spend it on crap.
I think the term "Corporate Profit Structure" pretty much explains what happened to those values, since then.
Sorry if I got off on a rant...

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 12:35 PM
I read somewhere,maybe a reel to reel expert can back me up, when Studer was taken over by whoever owns it now, that hundreds of thousands of dollars of replacement parts, and stock parts for Studer machines were crushed.I believe it was millions of dollars worth and it was done by our very own Harman International.

Due to the damned bean counters... stored inventory like repair parts are considered taxable assets at the end of each year. :banghead:


Widget

speakerdave
06-10-2008, 12:53 PM
Yeah, I believe there was a tax rule change back in the 80's. Previously that kind of inventory could be written down over a few years. Publishing was also adversely affected and that led to the conglomeratization of the business.

David

Tim Rinkerman
06-10-2008, 12:54 PM
Thanks, Mr. Widget...My point exactly...the bottom profit line is considered to be more important than a reputation.........because not many companies are in for the long run to develop a "reputable" reputation! As long as they are making ever more money, what could possibly be wrong? The art of shuffling money for profit has gotten way out of hand...

Mr. Widget
06-10-2008, 02:02 PM
As long as they are making ever more money, what could possibly be wrong? The art of shuffling money for profit has gotten way out of hand...It's all about quarterly profits... I suggest it is one more bad US trait that we are exporting. Our corporate culture is infecting so many of the world's corporations.

When Daimler bought Chrysler, did Chrysler get better or Daimler get worse? :banghead:


Widget

4313B
06-10-2008, 02:49 PM
It's all about quarterly profits... I suggest it is one more bad US trait that we are exporting. Our corporate culture is infecting so many of the world's corporations.I really don't think we have to worry about it for too much longer. It's going to sort itself out and it's going to be really ugly, at least from a human perspective.

boputnam
06-10-2008, 02:58 PM
I thought about contacting a rep or two and asking but then I realized that I simply don't care.Yea, it's dissappointing the behavior one accepts after serial bad experiences.

This JBL future looks different than those prior... :(

cooky1257
06-10-2008, 03:03 PM
All together now, "ARE YOU LISTENING JBL?":)

hjames
06-10-2008, 03:09 PM
All together now, "ARE YOU LISTENING JBL?":)

Nah, g-man once said they don't come here much anymore - I gathered it was due to too many ignorant or insulting folks ...

Darned shame ...

BMWCCA
06-10-2008, 03:50 PM
How many cheapskates would it take to just buy the company? :applaud:

If I invested every dollar I've spent on JBL products over the last 30 years, it proabably wouldn't be much over $2,000. But I'd invest that to save a company and repurpose it asresponsive to its biggest fans who only wish for it to reclaim the reputation it always had. Not that it's lost that rep in the pro market.

Ian Mackenzie
06-10-2008, 04:20 PM
It not unusual for a global firm to distribute to specific markets and many if not most products to be manufactured off shore in places like China, Korea, Thailand and Demark.

Tim Rinkerman
06-10-2008, 04:52 PM
BMWCCA,
JBL has lost a substantial slice of the pro market. They got on the line array bus when V-dosc proved how well they worked.Everybody makes a line array now. You can make a "new school" (low price,new materials,modern production methods,...)driver that will equal or out perform the JBL issue counterparts. V-dosc, D&B acoustics,even Meyer have similar products, not a JBL driver in any of them.
They've lost the passion for producing a superior product..many of us know what kind of dillegence it takes to succede in business. The modern philosophy is more is better...
Mr. Widget...My company bought a new Dodge sprinter van new in 2005. For those of you that don't know what it is, it is a vehicle bigger than a full size van, but smaller than a cube van. Our 2005 has Mercedes triangles all over it...it's a 5 cylinder turbo diesel, that gets 30 MPG loaded. It is one of the nicest vehicles I have ever driven, you would not believe you were driving a vehicle its size by the way it handles, floor it, and it pushes you back in the seat. We have all been so taken with it, that when it was time to add another vehicle, unanimous decision...get another sprinter. Well, we went back to the Dodge dealer..tried ordering the same thing, uh,well,uh...you can't get that one anymore. LOOK! ITS BIGGER! WIDER! BIGGER ENGINE! You wouldn't think they would have put the same name on such a different vehicle. No Mercedes stars anywhere, now rams heads on everything. Dodge"re-designed" a well designed vehicle into a toad. We're lucky to get 15 mpg. with it..went from a 5cyl. to a 6 cyl. engine, purportedly to move the newer,heavier, more toad like body.
So, I can personally attest that Dodge made Daimler worse. Alot worse. I suppose the devil's advocate position is that how can an American company be caught producing a vehicle that is fuel efficient, when our economy is driven by selling oil? Seen any pictures (and I mean less than a year old,) of downtown Dubai, lately? You all ain't kiddin' when you say its going to come to head, one way or another, pretty quickly.

BMWCCA
06-10-2008, 05:16 PM
So, I can personally attest that Dodge made Daimler worse. Alot worse. I suppose the devil's advocate position is that how can an American company be caught producing a vehicle that is fuel efficient, when our economy is driven by selling oil? Umm, I think you made a very good case for Daimler making Chrysler better (the Sprinter is a European Daimler truck) and then, after the separation, Chrysler making Dodge worse. Perhaps part of the separation deal was Chrysler could only continue buying, building, or selling the re-badged or Daimler-engineered products for a limited period. (The Crossfire was crap, anyway.) I don't know, but certainly Dodge had no Sprinter to sell before the D-C merger (remember the old saw: "How do you pronounce Daimler-Chrysler? The Chrysler is silent.") The fact that what they're selling now is a Chrysler product and not as good as the one it replaces seems not to prove your point. Daimler dumping Chrysler let Chrysler bury itself. And venture capitalists can't run a car company, as they've now proven.

Rolf
06-11-2008, 06:12 AM
Hi Rolf. After I read your previous post I almost posted the same comment as 4313B did. I am pretty sure that he isn't "hacking" on you. On the contrary, he and I think you made a very wise post.


Widget

Thank you for clearing that up. As you know, English is not my first language, and I have noticed that sometimes I get an understanding that is not intended by the one writing it. :o: Maybe it is the other way around sometimes?:blink: