2122H vs 2202H for 200-800Hz

[pos]

Hello,

What would be your preference between a 2122H and a 2202H for the 200Hz to 800Hz region (or maybe 250-1000)?

That driver would sit between a 2245H and a 2435H mounted on a H9800 horn.

The question could also be rephrased as "Which speaker is you favorite in the low mid between the 4345 and the 4355?"

thanks
:bouncy:

[Earl K]

- Altec 414-8C is my first choice of midranges to try to voice with that specific combo ( I don't have any , so it's just wishfull thinking ) .

- I don't like the 2202H at all .

- I like virtually every ten inch that JBL has made . ( ie ; 2122H is my second choice ).

< :)

[pos]

I have never looked at these Altec drivers. Will do, thanks!


I don't like the 2202H at all .
Why is that? I have read somewhere that it could be considered "slow" compared to the lighter 10". Is that your grief?

[Earl K]

Why is that? I have read somewhere that it could be considered "slow" compared to the lighter 10". Is that your grief?

Perhaps it's because I was exposed to this midrange ( 2202a & H ) in the Sound Reinforcement business over a long period of time ,,,that I became convinced the driver has a problem wherein the driver seems to produce overtones of it's own .

Only a complete ETF analysis of the woofer ( including a CSD "watefall" obtained from within an anechoic chamber ) would expose what I think it's problems are . Since that's not about to happen , I just steer clear of the driver .

"Slow" doesn't have much to do with it / in fact , I would likely prefer to add a coating of aquaplas to the cone to see if that would "fix" my perception .

:)

[Robh3606]

Either a 2122 or a 2123. I use a 2123 with a PTH1010 driven by an aquaplassed 2435. Works for me.

Rob:)

[Chas]

Either a 2122 or a 2123.
Rob:)

I'll second those choices. Make sure you go with a CC nework, too.

[pos]

I need a driver that can go down to 200 or 250Hz without problem.
The 2123 I own seems weak down there, and needs eq.

Looking a the 2202 spec sheet (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2202.pdf) the curve looks good down to 200Hz, but my simulations using the published T/S parameters tell another story, with a rolloff similar to the 2123 starting at 300hz...

4313B prefers the 2202 over the 2123 when used under 800hz: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104

MikeM finds it slowish: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=980&postcount=12

The 2122 has a lower Fs than the 2123 and seems more confortable in the 200Hz region. So what about 2202 vs 2122 specifically?

[pos]

:bouncy:

[grumpy]

... beyond individual driver preference, it might be useful to also consider
in-system sensitivity matching, space requirements ("doghouse", baffle layout),
intended use (SPL goals/limitations), ... :blah: Although, starting with a nice
mid-bass driver and working out the rest to suit, strikes me as a reasonable
method as well.

Unless I already had other drivers in-hand, the 2122H is what I'd start looking to
get/assemble if finesse vs. slam were the intent.

[spkrman57]

I bought these from a friend who reconed a D131 with a 2202 cone. :blink:

I noticed the magnet is slightly larger on the D131 than with stock 2202 core.

I'm curious what will be end result of this "Franken-driver".;)

I'm thinking of using them in back loaded corner horns up to 800hz.

I'll post the results in the future when I can get them broke in and running.

Regards, Ron

[Ian Mackenzie]

This hase been discussed before.

The 9800 horn is intended to be matched to a large diameter driver with a deep profile.

Technically The 2122 on Bass box sims is a better candidate than the 2123 at the bottom end.

The 2202 is shit house being 5db or more less output @100hz.

Provided you dont push it too hard the 2122 will work okay with max output of 116 db in 0.5cu ft sealed. Run it full range an it will be 5.5 db down at 100 hz

Grab yourself Bass box and mess with some trial sims and you will soon understand.

However, I would not recommend the configuration you are looking at as you will have significant time alignment and crossover blending issue with that horn and driver.

You would be better served to look at a 1200FE driver (if you can wait 12 months) or 2234 (2235without mass ring).

The 2234 (as used in the venerable 4435) is a very impressive driver and would work well at both ends. See if you can find a 2235 frame and have it reconed asa 2234 or remove the mass ring of the 2235 carefully. If you add a second 2234 and load it like the 4435 you could dump the 2245 and biamp the horn.

[Mr. Widget]

- Altec 414-8C is my first choice of midranges to try to voice with that specific combo ( I don't have any , so it's just wishfull thinking ) .

- I don't like the 2202H at all .

- I like virtually every ten inch that JBL has made . ( ie ; 2122H is my second choice ).

< :)I have a pair of older Altec 414-Z drivers I'll eventually get around to trying. I am really curious about them. The fellow I sold my 4355 clones to ended up using a pair of them in those cabinets.

I agree with you about the 2202. I think it is a large part of why I am not crazy about the 4350/55s.

I also agree that the 10" JBLs in general are all quite outstanding woofers for their intended applications.



Widget

[Guido]

I'm with Ian.

2 2234H per side in an 2234 low end configuration. The second 2234 crossed over to the H9800 around 800Hz.

Yeah!

[Ian Mackenzie]

I might even do that with my 2435 be drivers if I can find a 9800 clone since the current crop of consumer horns appear NLA (perpetually backordered)

[pos]

Unless I already had other drivers in-hand, the 2122H is what I'd start looking to
get/assemble if finesse vs. slam were the intent.
Yes, the smaller the doghouse the better, and in this regard the 2122H is a better choice! Finesse is definitely what I am looking for but... I want some fine slam!
thank you!


The 9800 horn is intended to be matched to a large diameter driver with a deep profile.
(...)
However, I would not recommend the configuration you are looking at as you will have significant time alignment and crossover blending issue with that horn and driver.

You would be better served to look at a 1200FE driver (if you can wait 12 months) or 2234 (2235without mass ring).
Yes, that is one of the reason I hesitate between the 12" and the 10".
I remember reading Bo's comments about the 4345+H9800 he listen to at Rich's place (this is the one H9800 clone pair I will be using, by the way!). He found it didn't blend well, and you offered the explanation of the mismatch in radiation area between the 10" and the big horn.
My initial plan was to use a rectangular PT wave guide above the 10", but then Rich offered his H9800 in the marketplace and I could not resist...
The 1200Fe, as in GT's DIY, is in fact hard to get and costly (specially in france: we pay twice the figure US customers pay, plus this figure in in €...).
I was even thinking about trying the 128H from my 4412 in a closed box. I think the 1200Fe is an evolution of the 128H the LE120H is, and the 1200Fe looks similar), with an only slightly higher sensibility, so maybe it could work...? I really like the midbass of my 4412.
What other 12" could do the trick? Some TAD?

The time alignment and sensitivity issues will be dealt with a digital active crossover.


The 2234 (as used in the venerable 4435) is a very impressive driver and would work well at both ends. See if you can find a 2235 frame and have it reconed asa 2234 or remove the mass ring of the 2235 carefully. If you add a second 2234 and load it like the 4435 you could dump the 2245 and biamp the horn.
I'm with Ian.

2 2234H per side in an 2234 low end configuration. The second 2234 crossed over to the H9800 around 800Hz.

Yeah!
:hmm:
But I really like the sound I hear from my 2123 (if only it could go lower).
2234 are also hard to come by here. I have only managed to obtain one 2205 basket that I could recone. I would need 3 more. And the price for reconing these is almost as high as reconing a 2245H.
Well, that is something I will keep in mind! Thank you.


I have a pair of older Altec 414-Z drivers I'll eventually get around to trying. I am really curious about them. The fellow I sold my 4355 clones to ended up using a pair of them in those cabinets.

I agree with you about the 2202. I think it is a large part of why I am not crazy about the 4350/55s.

I also agree that the 10" JBLs in general are all quite outstanding woofers for their intended applications.

Widget, Don't you have a DIY setup with a Sub1500 + 8" (2108H?) + tad horn? What do you think about the blending issue betwwen a 10" and a H9800? This blending issue is sometinh I will already be able to look at with my 2123, as soon as I can test the H9800.

I will be looking for these old Altec woofers !

[Guido]

I have only managed to obtain one 2205 basket that I could recone. I would need 3 more. And the price for reconing these is almost as high as reconing a 2245H.

If you want to go that route send me a pm. I always have 15" baskets.

Recone Price for 2245 is nearly double than recone for 2234.

If you are interested in a quote, pm me.

[Mr. Widget]

Widget, Don't you have a DIY setup with a Sub1500 + 8" (2108H?) + tad horn? No, never used them. I tried a few 10" and 12" woofers from JBL and others and ended up with a 10" TAD TL-1102. A wonderful little old school alnico woofer that looks a lot like a vintage JBL.


What do you think about the blending issue betwwen a 10" and a H9800?Sounds screwy to me. I am not saying that blending a 10" woofer to it would be easy, but I don't buy the notion that somehow a 15" woofer will more seamlessly blend with it. But then again, there are many theories about how to get great sound and there are many different approaches that end up working.


Widget

[subwoof]

The pattern that a typical 15 / horn system has can be described as a hourglass - where the dispersion ( in the horizontal ) is tapered at the crossover point because the 15 is run too high ( and becomes beamy ) and the horn too low ( and loses pattern control ).

I have built many a box with combinations of 10,12,15 ( and even an 18 ) coupled with just about every size and type horn / driver that JBL has made.

And after all this I *STILL* cannot say which combination works the best although the 4430 combo is the easiest to work with for a plug+play install.

In my shop are 4 each 2226H / 2450SL that have either 2381 or 2352 horns. Since I cross them over at 800, you would think that the larger horn would perform the same BUT it's performance in the vocal range is smoother and large string instruments sound great even at high output / close range. The 2381 however works better for loud music playback and generic "PA" apps.

It would take a great deal of measurements and time to determine why ( most probably the vertical pattern control ) but they would not necessarily translate to someone elses project or taste.


So....

Given the many variables in the horn geometry(s), cone diameter/mass/suspension, HF driver/diaphram and of course the crossover / box it's a wonder that so many variations exist and actually WORK.

For a quick club project I recycled the components that the old PA had and made a pair of dual K151 / 2390 / 075 cabinets that were powered by the OLD crown "D" amps and a urei 525.....it sounded simply AMAZING and looked really cool.

Someday I will make another set..:)


sub

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17010

[steveh]

Does anyone have any experience or opinons on the TAD TM 1201 12" driver as a replacement for the 2202? Any thoughts as to how it would perform in 4355's in lieu of the 2202's? Good thread, made me wonder about a few things. Thanks

[pos]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17010

Yes these 251J/2251J-2 would go low enough!
here is the spec sheet: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11985

but the sensibility is quite low with 91.6dB/1w/1m

They have aquaplas + mass ring.
Maybe adding only one of the two to a 2251 would do the trick?

[pos]

Does anyone have any experience or opinons on the TAD TM 1201 12" driver as a replacement for the 2202? Any thoughts as to how it would perform in 4355's in lieu of the 2202's? Good thread, made me wonder about a few things. Thanks

Yes, and the TL-1101 and TL-1102 are also intersting (but 11").

Looking at the simulations the TM-1201 doen't go really low, with -2db at 300Hz and -6db at 200Hz in a 0.1 cu ft (!) closed box.

The TM 11" work better there.

[pos]

What about the Altec 414 16C ?
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280232479751&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

[pos]

Would a 2206H be a serious option, against a 2202H for example?
It would allow me to cross the 2245 even lower, but would it have as much "snap" as a 2202H?...

I know Gold Sound are using it with a 2245 in the 80-1200Hz range in their #14 kit.
pantaNS is also using it above a 2245 in the 150-800Hz range in its DIY:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=14663
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1859

I have an opportunity to buy a pair of 2202H (the other options are more difficult to find, or too pricy for now), but 2206H show up regularly on ebay, so please give me your opinion as I have to decide quickly. :)

[Earl K]

Would a 2206H be a serious option, against a 2202H for example?
It would allow me to cross the 2245 even lower, but would it have as much "snap" as a 2202H?...

- Yes ! the 2206H is a nice midbass woofer with lots of Xmax capability and has a nice strong motor .
- I'd use them in a 3 way project before I'd use the 2202H / mostly because I'd want to use any 12" down to 75 or 100 hz .

- Yes, you'll give up some "snap" by using a heavier coned 12" ( like the 2206 ) vs a lighter coned 12" ( such as the 2202 ) . Those are just the facts of life when reaching for a lower crossover point .


- The 2206H is a current production model that's easy enough to buy and then resell ( if they don't meet with your approval ) .

<> :)

What about the 414-16C ?
Buy 8 ohm woofers ( unless you're a tube guy ) . 8 ohm drivers are easier to acquire ( & then resell ) / plus more importantly, virtually all "off the shelf" crossovers/networks are designed around this impedance .

[spkrman57]

[quote=Earl K;211586- I'd use them in a 3 way project before I'd use the 2202H / mostly because I'd want to use any 12" down to 75 or 100 hz .

- Yes, you'll give up some "snap" by using a heavier coned 12" ( like the 2206 ) vs a lighter coned 12" ( such as the 2202 ) . Those are just the facts of life when reaching for a lower crossover point .
[/quote]

If the bandwith desired utilizing the 2202 in a 3-way were around 300hz - 1200hz, would that be be a usable design in your opinion?

My other option is to use the 2202's I have in a corner-loaded back horn. I think loading to approx 80hz might be possible with the right room size!

Regards, Ron

[pos]

thanks Earl
I have let the 2202H go, and I will be waiting for some 2206H now.
:)

[Mr. Widget]

thanks Earl
I have let the 2202H go, and I will be waiting for some 2206H now.
:)Sounds like a good decision to me. :D


Widget

[Earl K]

If the bandwith desired utilizing the 2202 in a 3-way were around 300hz - 1200hz, would that be be a usable design in your opinion?

- I suppose, but as I first mentioned, I've just never warmed up to the 2202 & I've heard a few of them in 4350 monitors ( since I used to "hang" at a studio that had a pair / way back in the 80s' ).

- Anyways, virtually all the leg work has been done by JBL ( GT et all ) to get their plethora of 10s to "mesh nice" with their 15s' & 18s .




My other option is to use the 2202's I have in a corner-loaded back horn. I think loading to approx 80hz might be possible with the right room size!

- Yeh but , you tend horn-load most things ( which I don't ) .
- I just don't have an opinion about this driver when it's horn-loaded.

:)

[pos]

I have a pair of older Altec 414-Z drivers I'll eventually get around to trying. I am really curious about them. The fellow I sold my 4355 clones to ended up using a pair of them in those cabinets.

I agree with you about the 2202. I think it is a large part of why I am not crazy about the 4350/55s.

I also agree that the 10" JBLs in general are all quite outstanding woofers for their intended applications.



Widget

Here is a blog entry of a japanese guy that tried a 414 and 2213nd in place of the 2202 in his 4350 :
http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.yahoo.co.jp%2Faudio _jbl%2F52842497.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8

The automatic translation is blurring everything, unforlunatly :(

[4313B]

Recone your 2202H's to 2204H's. :dont-know

Way back in the old days when Project May first started up alot of people wanted to add a ten between the fifteen and the H9800. Greg was adamantly opposed to such a proposition. - "Won't work."

I think it is interesting that JBL uses dual eights with the Array horn in the SAM2LF though.

I know that the 1500AL and 1200FE both work really well. I could try my 2122H's or 2123H's at some point I suppose...

[ivica]

... beyond individual driver preference, it might be useful to also consider
in-system sensitivity matching, space requirements ("doghouse", baffle layout),
intended use (SPL goals/limitations), ... :blah: Although, starting with a nice
mid-bass driver and working out the rest to suit, strikes me as a reasonable
method as well.

Unless I already had other drivers in-hand, the 2122H is what I'd start looking to
get/assemble if finesse vs. slam were the intent.


It is expect-able that 2122 (as 'under-hung'), and 2123 and 2202 (as 'over-hung') would have some different character of reproduction, but here it is important that for each of them some "small" differences has to be made in network circuitry, in order to expect almost the same frequency transfer characteristics. In attached figures some simulations are presented under following :
-closed box of 15 Lit net-volume
-10W power

Presented graphs has been done under "in axes piston band response" presenting "piston beaming influence on higher frequency", and without that influence. On other figures network model is done with component values. JBL N3145 for mid-bass section was starting point for simulation.
Here in simulation it is expected to have one E120 rekoned with C8R2202 re-cone too, and marked as 2202H/E120. Stronger magnet on E120 basket produced some more efficiency in the mid-band region, and has to be attenuated more then 2202H. On the other hand some 'dumping' of "High-pass section" attenuated low-frequency response of 2202 driver with Rp1 resistor. This dumping, I expect that has to be done especially in the combination with 2245H driver as bass unit.
Rs1 is put nearer to input in order to rise the total box impedance in mid-bass region.

If no intervention done to N3145 (so Rs1=2.55R would be near Rp2=19.5R, and L-pad connected "in parallel with Rp2, and Rp1 removed, Cp2=14uF for all), but only L-pad attenuation to align sensitivity of the drivers third figure would be expected. As can be seen, 2202 i either version would have less bandwidth while 2123 would have larger than 2122.