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Don McRitchie
03-29-2004, 09:19 AM
As most of the readers of this forum know, I picked up a pair of mint Altec Model 19’s two weeks ago. However, there was a significant problem. They had been sitting unused for the past 20 years. The compression drivers were not working when I first hooked them up. An examination revealed that three of the four tinsel leads had snapped at the 90 degree bend. I immediately ordered replacements from Great Plains Audio. However, due to a shipping screw-up, they will not be mailed out until today. Fortunately, “John” on our forum lent me a pair of 808-8A’s as a temporary replacement. I tried mounting these drivers, but could not get the 802-8G’s to dislodge from the horns. The gaskets appear to be glued in place. Therefore, I did the next best thing and swapped the diaphragms. I am now running Symbiotic diaphragms in the 802-8G’s.

Upon getting the new diaphragms installed, I hooked up the speakers to my Threshold 400A amp, Parasound preamp and Kyrocera CD player. My first impressions were not good. There were no highs. Cymbals sounded recessed and clipped. Bass response seemed anemic and boomy. Worst of all, the mids were piercing and grating. In summary, the Altec cliché of being all midrange seemed evident in spades. When all seemed lost, I thought, how would this system respond to EQ? I have a 4 band parametric SAE equalizer that I have not used for years. When I tried using it with my Dahlquist DQ-10’s, it seemed to create more problems than it solved, so I took it off line. Now I decided to see if the Altecs could be tamed by it.

The short answer is – yes. EQ worked wonders on the 19’s. The first thing I did was hit the 2khz midrange hump with 4db of cut across a two and a half octave band. This made an amazing difference. Vocals that were previously raspy became smooth and delicate. More significantly, it affected the overall forward balance of the system, resulting in a much more natural presentation. It also greatly improved imaging. Previously, the mids so dominated, that a vocalists sounded like they were out in front of everything. Now, all instruments can be perceived with a proper spatial perspective.

I next added around 4db of boost centered at 40hz over a one octave band. I combined this with 2db of cut centered at 300hz over a three octave band. This got rid of the midbass boom while providing a solid and tight bass foundation. Finally, I added 12db of boost centered at 14khz over a one and a half octave band and this restored the shimmering highs.

All-in-all, I’m quite pleased with the results. It still doesn’t have the neutrality of my DQ-10’s, but it’s not far off. Further, the system has bass and dynamics that the DQ-10’s could never hope to touch. I’m looking forward to getting the correct Great Plains diaphragms to see if this makes a further improvement. I have no doubt that the high end response issues should largely go away. I also think that the midrange issue should also be improved. However, my gut instinct is that equalization will still be a key factor in getting the best out of this system, even with the proper diaphragms.

Todd W. White
03-29-2004, 05:36 PM
I suspect that the crossover components - particularly the capacitors - have changed value over the years as they have been sitting who-knows-where unused. You ought to revampm them with new parts of the same values.

The Model 19's I am used to are not like that at all...although the Symbiotik diaphragms ARE hard to listen to....especially over time...

Don McRitchie
03-29-2004, 07:54 PM
Todd

Has Iconic Manufacturing finished development of their upgraded Model 19 cross-over?

Todd W. White
03-29-2004, 08:04 PM
We have the direct replacement that Jerry Hubbard has re-designed for us using higher quality components and the original schematic.

This crossover, which can be built and fastened to your original faceplate (for the cosmetic-conscious), matches the electrical characteristics of the original Model 19 XO exactly, but the parts are MUCH better. I built a lot of these way back when my company was manufacturing M19 reproductions for people when Altec had just stopped making them, and they worked very, very well.

A SUPERCrossover for the Model 19 is a ways off - we're working on an all-new XO for the 604-8K, to be followed by ones for other 604's.

Don McRitchie
03-29-2004, 08:43 PM
What's the cost?

Todd W. White
03-30-2004, 08:05 AM
I'll be happy to find out for you - Jerry should have the new layout done this week.

Tom Loizeaux
03-30-2004, 08:20 AM
Don,
I think the alunimum diaphragms make the 802s sound best. Even the new diaphragms from Great Plains, which are heat-treated aluminum, will sound better then Pascalite, or other,"high-power" diaphragms.
I have a pair of Altec Valencias in my living room for "casual listening" (my serious room with JBLs in in the basement). I find the Valencias very satisfying... except they might lack a touch of ultra high end and do need a subwoofer to get much below 50Hz. Adding a powered subwoofer, even a cheap consumer one (JBL PB-12 for example), and running the Altecs full range, will allow you to just subtly fortify the lowest end. Altec didn't make these for true full frequency response.
There's something about efficient 15" speakers, teamed with a conpression driver, mounted in a large cabinet that needs to be experienced.

Tom

jbl
04-02-2004, 02:44 PM
Hi Don,
Why not replace the Altec drivers with JBL's? The 19's are great looking cabinets.

Ron

Todd W. White
04-02-2004, 05:00 PM
WHY?????

:banghead: BECAUSE THEY WON'T SOUND GOOD IF HE DOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JBL indeed............... :biting:

Mr. Widget
04-02-2004, 05:40 PM
Calm down Todd, I don't think Don's expectations are too high... he knows they're only Altecs.:D :D :D

Widget

Todd W. White
04-02-2004, 06:09 PM
:scold: NAWTY! NAWTY!!!!! YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR MOUTH SCRUBBED OUT WITH LAVA SOAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex Lancaster
04-02-2004, 10:43 PM
Yeah, forget about substituting JBL´s in Altec cabinets, it would be like putting a newer Mercedes engine in Your ´57 Packard.

Charley Rummel
04-02-2004, 11:09 PM
Though I'm not fortunate enough to own the Altec Model 19 pair, I have had the pleasure of experiencing their performance, ("..OK, boys! Nice and LOUD!", said Billy Cox to Mitch Mitchell and Jimi Hendix as they began to play...)

Don, whatever your tastes are, I think you'll be very happy after restoring these fine speakers.

Regards,
Charley

Don McRitchie
04-02-2004, 11:32 PM
Play nice guys. Actually, I don't think there would be any benefit is substituting a small format JBL driver for a small format Altec. They are both very competent drivers. I believe the biggest issue is the resonant 811B horn. If I can properly damp that horn, I think a lot of the problems I have been experiencing will go away. Not to mention that fact that I am not using the proper HF diaphragms.

Mr. Widget
04-03-2004, 12:52 AM
All kidding aside, I would love to have a pair of Model 19s, and the extra room to keep them. I think they are the best sounding speakers that Altec ever made. I have to admit I haven't heard a pair in many, many years.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
04-03-2004, 01:11 AM
Don,

Have you had an opportunity contact Kent English?

I understand he has mastered the art of taming Altec horns.

In any case I will see this first hand soon enough and advise on the specifics

Ian

thevott
04-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Easy on the Altecs people! The model Nineteen is more like a vintage 911 Porsche than a Packard and the 811B horn is quite tame when bolted into an enclosure.

When properly resored the Model Ninteens should prove to be a real showstopper.

MP

Todd W. White
04-03-2004, 01:05 PM
Packard's were far superior to ANY Mercedes....

Packard and Altec suffered the same fate - a superior product went away because the people who knew how to build it died or retired and the new owners with management degrees, who neither understood or cared to understand the products, managed the company into oblivion.

Alex Lancaster
04-03-2004, 01:45 PM
Pls see "Packard" thread in "off topic".

Todd W. White
04-03-2004, 01:54 PM
I looked, but didn't see a "Packard" thread in the Off Topic section....did I miss it?

Alex Lancaster
04-03-2004, 02:14 PM
You´re quick, I´m not.

scott fitlin
04-03-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Todd W. White
Packard's were far superior to ANY Mercedes....

Packard and Altec suffered the same fate - a superior product went away because the people who knew how to build it died or retired and the new owners with management degrees, who neither understood or cared to understand the products, managed the company into oblivion. Packard may have suffered from mismanagement and gone by the wayside because of this, but I really doubt a 1950something Packard would honestly be be superior to " ANY " Mercedes today. Yes, the packard was made from heavier gauge metal, but would undoubtedly lack the safety features found commonly on todays automobiles! Things like anti-lock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, etc!

As for aerodynamics, speed, and handling what stock Packard from the 50,s will outdo todays Mercedes 0-60mph, or 1/4 mile! Even IF you had a tricked out Packard you still have a car with a much heavier weight, far less aerodynamic, that isnt anywhere near as fuel efficient as todays cars!

Now IF you were gonna tell me the Packards then were superior to todays American cars, well, in some aspects, maybe, but European , especially the German engineered Mercedes are tops and always have been. And the top of the line Mercedes are outstanding automobiles. Quick, fast, powerful, luxurious, with great handling and manuverabilty!

As for todays speakers, many of the latest products available are designed for extremely high power handling over very long periods of time. This they have accomplished, albeit, with alteration to tonal character, thats different from some of the highly prized vintage products. However, there are two sides to this coin too! The flip side to this is that although many of the Altec speakers of the past had a really nice sound, and I do LOVE Altec vintage woofers, could they be used in todays touring systems with the amplifiers commonly in use right now? Unfortunately, I dont think any of the Altec drivers will hold up being powered by amps like Crown 5000VZ,s, Crest 8001 and 9001,s, or QSC Powerlight 9.0,s!

I actually believe companies today ARE manufacturing WHAT the market wants! Showco, Claire Bros and other major touring companies want smaller, lighter spaeaker cabinets, and smaller higher powered amplifiers! Many of these companies engineers DO know that there is a compromise for this new technology, but they dont care. For these people its easier to move the new stuff, and it does in fact play louder! NO, It doesnt have the same tonality and sound that the older things had, but they dont care.

Nor do I see any of these companies going back to the technology of the past. Cause if they were, manufacturers would oblige them by making what they want! Showco and Claire bros alone spend tons of money on gear! They want speakers that can handle todays power, and yet be smaller and lighter than what we used to use!

Last week I watched the Britney Spears concert on TV live from Miami, and I could see line arrays hanging, but no VOTT anywhere. If the great sounding but big and heavy stuff of the past was available, would the touring companies opt to buy and use it?

I dont know!

:cool:

mikebake
04-03-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by scott fitlin
If the great sounding but big and heavy stuff of the past was available, would the touring companies opt to buy and use it?

I dont know!

:cool:

The answer is no, and also, todays best touring cabinets sound and measure better than the old stuff. Weight and portability are very important to profitability, but don't kid yourself about the sound quality that is available in live applications.

MBB

scott fitlin
04-03-2004, 03:31 PM
Some of todays designs do in fact have extremely low, almost vanishing levels of distortion. And this is needed to be able to play at the extrememly high output levels they are designed to produce.

Some of todays concerts sound very good. Some of them are just too loud. But they have gotten it to work.

Profitability. Well, the bottom line will affect and always has affected things. Lighter and smaller is more profitable all the way around. From the manufacturer to the middle man down to the end user. Lighter weight and less space = lower freight costs. fact of life.

I agree, Mike, even if the older but big and heavy stuff was available, they wouldnt buy it the way they did 20 years ago. Another fact of life.

But, although I agree with you on most things said here, while todays best touring speakers DO measure better, sometimes they dont always sound better. I have heard some concert systems which were outstanding for what they were using them for, and I have heard some systems with the latest, most expensive technology and outstanding specs, sound like rubbish!

It does cut both ways!

Charley Rummel
04-03-2004, 09:59 PM
People, Don has a pair of Altec model 19's. They are a landmark design we all regard as a great two-way system. Rather than get phylisophical about things here, let's get these puppies ALIVE AGAIN!! Who has resources to furnish Don with the parts needed to bring these fine speakers to stellar shape? Who wants to graciously give these needed components to Don AT NO CHARGE?

I've been in a career crunch recently, and I don't have a lot to my name, but I think Don McRitchie should realize some windfall from the efforts he's directed into this forum.

Regards,
Charley

scott fitlin
04-04-2004, 02:37 PM
Charley, what exactly does Don need? If I can help I will. Let me know.

:cool:

mikebake
04-05-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Charley Rummel
...I think Don McRitchie should realize some windfall from the efforts he's directed into this forum.

Regards,
Charley

Right-o Charley. That was the thought behind Project May. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=22

RSkarsten
02-19-2005, 01:00 PM
I regret trading them for a Teac 1/2" eight track around 16 years ago. The eight track quickly became obsolete and the 19's surly improved with age. In any event, I've been collecting componants through the years and now only lack the cabinets. Does anyone know where I can get some deminsions that are detailed enough for be to build a pair?

I'm at [email protected]

TIA
Russ

speakerdave
02-19-2005, 01:32 PM
Does anyone know where I can get some deminsions that are detailed enough for be to build a pair?
Russ

Try a search on the Great Plains Audio Forum here:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3729

David

Don McRitchie
02-19-2005, 01:38 PM
I've sent the original factory plans to your email address.

John
02-19-2005, 04:58 PM
Hey Don I was not aware there was any factory plans for the 19's? Please send me some scans of them to my email,I would like to have a look:bouncy:

Bernard Wolf
02-19-2005, 07:59 PM
When all seemed lost, I thought, how would this system respond to EQ? I have a 4 band parametric SAE equalizer that I have not used for years.

The short answer is – yes. EQ worked wonders on the 19’s. The first thing I did was hit the 2khz midrange hump with 4db of cut across a two and a half octave band. This made an amazing difference. Vocals that were previously raspy became smooth and delicate. More significantly, it affected the overall forward balance of the system, resulting in a much more natural presentation. It also greatly improved imaging. Previously, the mids so dominated, that a vocalists sounded like they were out in front of everything. Now, all instruments can be perceived with a proper spatial perspective.

I next added around 4db of boost centered at 40hz over a one octave band. I combined this with 2db of cut centered at 300hz over a three octave band. This got rid of the midbass boom while providing a solid and tight bass foundation. Finally, I added 12db of boost centered at 14khz over a one and a half octave band and this restored the shimmering highs.


I once had the experience of selling a pair of Lowther TPI corner horns becuase, quite simply, they sounded terrible. Nasal mids and no bass. The though of eq never occured to me becasue in my Audiophile days that was anathema... how could you dare run that pure SE signal through a crossover, much less an equalizer? Anyway, delivered them to the buyer and then watched and listened as he proceeded to apply eq through his little 2 watt Phillips intergrated SE vintage amp and voilla ! They sounded 50% better.. not JBL's, but at least you now could listen to them. Quite the revelation to me I'll tell you !! Good thing he had paid me $5000.00 for them or I would have been one real unhappy camper.

Bernard

mike
02-20-2005, 09:55 AM
Equalizer's seem to have gained a bad reputation due to the fact that a lot of people don't know how to use them and therefore abuse them ( like boosting all of the bands) and the fact that there are a some poor quality Eq's floating around that degrade the signal too much. A properly used decent quality eq can correct enviromental/placement issues as well as speaker issues.

Mike

modviews
09-14-2006, 04:28 PM
just about to decide on my first altec system. pruned down my choices betwen a Model ninteen, an A7 and a VAlencia. anyone can comment ? i listened to a lot of female vocals and like a little bit of BAss.
victor:) :)

Todd W. White
09-14-2006, 05:10 PM
The BEST for home audio!

Dylanl
09-15-2006, 10:03 PM
I love my 19s. I would like however to upgrade the crossovers to a better design. Have any of you use an active crossover with the 19's? I would like to hear your comments. I know someone who is trying this now with his 19's. So far good results.

Gary L
09-17-2006, 07:40 PM
As a 19 lover I have to cry FOUL!

It is simply not fair to assess a speaker when you have replaced the diaphrams with those nasty Symbiotics and have them in your home.

I do hope you revisit this thread after you make your MODEL 19 back into MODEL 19s and have a chance to re-assess the sound.

Another thing worth mention here is that the diaprams that were toast could be from over powering them with poor amplification. I would send the HF drivers right to Bill and have them recharged and fully checked out.
Lots of guys removed the screens in them and this made for a great critter hang out while being stored.

Am I wrong here in asking for an honest test with speakers that are working up to spec?

No way is the Model 19 "THE SPEAKER" but it sure is one of them in my book when it is working as designed and up to spec.

Lets play fair here!

Gary

louped garouv
09-18-2006, 03:50 PM
just about to decide on my first altec system. pruned down my choices betwen a Model ninteen, an A7 and a VAlencia. anyone can comment ? i listened to a lot of female vocals and like a little bit of BAss.
victor:) :)


I prefer the A7s....

Storm
09-18-2006, 03:56 PM
Unless the 19's can tame the high end and mids, I would look for A7's, Flamencos, or 846B's. You can always use an equalizer.

Just purchased a monster power conditioner and it has tamed the mids and highs on my 846's and cleaned up my picture on my TV.

So, all in all....if you have the space and money for 19's - find a pair, otherwise find Flamencos or any of the 846 series.

:)

modviews
09-20-2006, 07:20 AM
thanks todd ! appreciate your help. let you know once i get something.
victor:) :)

modviews
09-20-2006, 07:24 AM
thanks guys for your comments. victor:)

altecspkrs
09-01-2008, 01:14 PM
just about to decide on my first altec system. pruned down my choices betwen a Model ninteen, an A7 and a VAlencia. anyone can comment ? i listened to a lot of female vocals and like a little bit of BAss.
victor:) :)

I took would like to hear some more comparisons between Model 19's and 846B Valencias.... I've had several pairs of 19's in the past, and now have a pair of 846B's, with another pair on the way. My impression is that the bass on the 19's is superb, and on the 846B's, also, perhaps tighter, but a close 2nd in extension. Although it's been awhile, my 19's always sounded harsh through the upper mids and lower highs (no matter how I adjusted the pads on the crossovers - and I was even temtped to change the crossovers to 1285's or 8500's at 500 hz to try to overcome this, but never did), but the 846B's I have do not seem to have this harshness, and also seem to be more detailed in the mids and highs. (I am getting a "hashy" overlay on massed strings, etc., in many recordings, but his may be an example of "garbage in - garbage out" due to the accuracy of the speakers. Please, anyone seing this, give me your thoughts...I haven't posted here before and am not sure I'm doing it correctly.....Thanks!

altecspkrs
09-01-2008, 01:20 PM
just about to decide on my first altec system. pruned down my choices betwen a Model ninteen, an A7 and a VAlencia. anyone can comment ? i listened to a lot of female vocals and like a little bit of BAss.
victor:) :)

I took would like to hear some more comparisons between Model 19's and 846B Valencias.... I've had several pairs of 19's in the past, and now have a pair of 846B's, with another pair on the way. My impression is that the bass on the 19's is superb, and on the 846B's, also, perhaps tighter, but a close 2nd in extension. Although it's been awhile, my 19's always sounded harsh through the upper mids and lower highs (no matter how I adjusted the pads on the crossovers - and I was even temtped to change the crossovers to 1285's or 8500's at 500 hz to try to overcome this, but never did), but the 846B's I have do not seem to have this harshness, and also seem to be more detailed in the mids and highs. (I am getting a "hashy" overlay on massed strings, etc., in many recordings, but his may be an example of "garbage in - garbage out" due to the accuracy of the speakers. Please, anyone seing this, give me your thoughts...I haven't posted here before and am not sure I'm doing it correctly.....Thanks!

Also, I think the lower crossover point in the 846B' may be a factor in the mid-range detail, as I never liked the idea of a 1200 hz crossover, as in the 19's ....

slxrti
09-01-2008, 02:48 PM
American cars, well, in some aspects, maybe,

but European , especially the German engineered Mercedes are tops and always have been. And the top of the line Mercedes are outstanding automobiles. Quick, fast, powerful, luxurious, with great handling and manuverabilty!
:cool:

I find it interesting that a 60 year old design would out perform any modern vehicle, the american cars must be using carborators, lack air conditioning, use bias ply tires, have hand cranks to row up/down the windows and do 0-60 in 10 sec's.

slxrti

Zilch
09-01-2008, 08:18 PM
Although it's been awhile, my 19's always sounded harsh through the upper mids and lower highs (no matter how I adjusted the pads on the crossovers - and I was even temtped to change the crossovers to 1285's or 8500's at 500 hz to try to overcome this, but never did), but the 846B's I have do not seem to have this harshness, and also seem to be more detailed in the mids and highs. (I am getting a "hashy" overlay on massed strings, etc., in many recordings, but his may be an example of "garbage in - garbage out" due to the accuracy of the speakers.Valencias HAVE no highs; there's nobody home above 10 kHz. What they DO have is "shouty" midrange. Perhaps that's what you like about them.

They are certainly not as accurate as you suggest....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117491#post117491

Ian Mackenzie
09-01-2008, 09:08 PM
I took would like to hear some more comparisons between Model 19's and 846B Valencias.... I've had several pairs of 19's in the past, and now have a pair of 846B's, with another pair on the way. My impression is that the bass on the 19's is superb, and on the 846B's, also, perhaps tighter, but a close 2nd in extension. Although it's been awhile, my 19's always sounded harsh through the upper mids and lower highs (no matter how I adjusted the pads on the crossovers - and I was even temtped to change the crossovers to 1285's or 8500's at 500 hz to try to overcome this, but never did), but the 846B's I have do not seem to have this harshness, and also seem to be more detailed in the mids and highs. (I am getting a "hashy" overlay on massed strings, etc., in many recordings, but his may be an example of "garbage in - garbage out" due to the accuracy of the speakers. Please, anyone seing this, give me your thoughts...I haven't posted here before and am not sure I'm doing it correctly.....Thanks!

Also, I think the lower crossover point in the 846B' may be a factor in the mid-range detail, as I never liked the idea of a 1200 hz crossover, as in the 19's ....

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/pro-systems/9846-8a/page03.jpg

I can think of alot of reasons why you may refer one model over the other

Assuming you are referring to the 9846 series they were true monitors made before Altec ran into quality issues. The model 19 was a Consumer system introduced much later on.

As the other suggest get GPA to look at the compression drivers.

Don also had problems in that department and from what I recall was never really taken with the 19's.

Ducatista47
09-01-2008, 11:06 PM
Last year I had a chance to hear a pair of 19's, nicely restored, while different program material and amplification were tried. It was quickly determined that they were virtually unlistenable with solid state. We were sure that a nice vintage Scott tube amp would do the trick. It was the right era and was not overly powerful. Still, they only sounded decent with one CD we tried, a Pretenders offering of all things. Even vinyl was a non starter.

They gave up for the day, but some time later I was told they finally sounded pretty good. An old set of Dynaco's, 35's I think, did the trick. The treble attenuation control could even be turned back to a normal position. Amplification is critical for these super efficient but generally harsh sounding classics.

For what it is worth, Dynaco 35's and the modern reproductions available have always sounded better to me on vintage JBL's, and many other speakers, than almost any other amp I have heard. I don't care anymore how they measure, they really do the trick. Vintage Altec's and JBL's are very efficient and do not benefit from big power. They need a really good first watt. An 8-20 watt amp is plenty. Even the little 4311 is in this category, certainly needing no more than that 35 (17 1/2 per channel). Any amp without a transparent first watt will not bring such speakers to anywhere near their potential.

Do the calculations yourself if you want; unless you play really loud the first watt is almost everything you will hear. On the Nineteens, for sure.

Clark

altecspkrs
09-03-2008, 01:28 PM
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/pro-systems/9846-8a/page03.jpg

I can think of alot of reasons why you may refer one model over the other

Assuming you are referring to the 9846 series they were true monitors made before Altec ran into quality issues. The model 19 was a Consumer system introduced much later on.

As the other suggest get GPA to look at the compression drivers.

Don also had problems in that department and from what I recall was never really taken with the 19's.

Thanks Ian, This explains why the 846B's seem more analytical to me.
I equalixed the 2K hz. band with a 4 db cut, as elsewhere suggested, to some advantage.....I will see if the pair of 846B's I have coming in a few days exhibit the same sound characteristics.... Thanks all .....

Zilch
09-03-2008, 01:36 PM
Somebody PLEASE tell me what 9846 with a different woofer, different HF driver, and different HF driver have to do with M19 and 846B.... :banghead:

altecspkrs
09-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Yeah, That's right, the pro 9846's used Altec's 411 "acoustic suspension" woofer, and had consumer conterparts in the Barcelona and Santiago..... The Santiago did incorporate the 811B horn and 806-8A or B h.f. driver, crossing over ar 800 hz., all similar to the 846B, however, so there have to be some similarities in the mids and highs...I did have a pair of Santiiagos for awhile, but the woofers had been reconed, perhaps not correctly, and the bass did not seem as dynamic as the 846B's with 416's...never was able to give them a real listening audition, as I have with the 846B's....Thanks to all....

analog addict
09-05-2008, 08:02 PM
I have tried a lot of different combinations with my 19's, and have really taken a liking to the current one....:applaud:

GE 7189A's and 5 star 5751's in a Stromberg Carlson ASR-433, Pioneer Elite DVD/CDP DV-38A and an old SS Kenny KT-6005 tuner....

Magic!...:D

The 19's have 802-8G's and 416-B's, along with recapped (Solens) crossovers. Even using a 'sui 9090db or a Kenny KR-9600, the bass has never sounded so solid and full, and the mids and highs so rich. There's no doubt in my mind that the 19's don't really come into thier own until you add a little vacuum to them....:thmbsup:

And yes that is my 12'x12' dining room. Good thing my wife doesn't like it, 'cause I've definitely found another use for it....:p

John
09-05-2008, 08:14 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that the 19's don't really come into thier own until you add a little vacuum to them....:thmbsup:


Try a mid 70's solid state Marantz, 100 watts and above and I think you might like it.:applaud:

Ducatista47
09-05-2008, 11:41 PM
I have tried a lot of different combinations with my 19's, and have really taken a liking to the current one....:applaud:

GE 7189A's and 5 star 5751's in a Stromberg Carlson ASR-433, Pioneer Elite DVD/CDP DV-38A and an old SS Kenny KT-6005 tuner....

Magic!...:D


That sounds like a world class tube compliment. It must sound stunning. That would be a great example of a transparent first watt.

From John:

Try a mid 70's solid state Marantz, 100 watts and above and I think you might like itI have owned and used mid 70's SS Marantz amps, and I respectfully disagree. Their first watt, which is about all you will hear in that room without bringing out the mickey mouse ear protectors, is not high quality. You can't ask a powerful transistor amp to function without a pretty good dose of negative feedback to smooth out its problems, and these are no exception. The first watt audibly suffers. First watt aside, of what possible use is the last 90 watts? For breaking glass or eardrums? The Model 19 is 99-102dB, shelving dependent, per watt at four feet. A decent 7189A amp will have way more than enough headroom and is crystal clear from .01 to six watts single ended and much more push-pull.

Clark

John
09-06-2008, 03:24 AM
From John:I have owned and used mid 70's SS Marantz amps, and I respectfully disagree. Their first watt, which is about all you will hear in that room without bringing out the mickey mouse ear protectors, is not high quality. You can't ask a powerful transistor amp to function without a pretty good dose of negative feedback to smooth out its problems, and these are no exception. The first watt audibly suffers. First watt aside, of what possible use is the last 90 watts? For breaking glass or eardrums? The Model 19 is 99-102dB, shelving dependent, per watt at four feet. A decent 7189A amp will have way more than enough headroom and is crystal clear from .01 to six watts single ended and much more push-pull.

Clark

Hi Clark is that what you use for your 4345's, A 6 watt amp:banghead:

Also just wondering what actual Marantz amps are you talking about from the mid 70's:hmm:

Ducatista47
09-06-2008, 09:31 AM
Hi, John,

My apologies, I think I am getting too contentious and should just shut up! This getting old thing stinks and I must have had a rotten personality to begin with. :o:

I am very familiar with the 1180DC and used the 1152DC exclusively for many years. These are integrated amps. The bigger amps I heard on other people's systems when I was visiting friends and occasionally borrowed them. Yes, I had fallen in with a bunch of Marantz heads. The reason I could hear what I heard about their first watt is Stax headphones, truth machines if ever there were any. The speakers of the day, and I was using big DIY's even then, used past the first watt and lacked the resolving power at low power levels to delve into such affairs. The Stax electrostatics, which I still use, are so revealing that I have yet to fail to hear the shortcomings and strengths of electronics and sources with them. They use speaker, not headphone outputs and draw as much or more power than most speakers I have used. If you are curious why that is so, they are driven at several hundred volts.

The amps were fine for what I/we were using them for, but when better things came along I could hear the difference. I now use speakers where the first watt's quality is vital, so at this point it even matters!

The 4345's? Biamped with rebuilt, upgraded crossovers of much higher resolving power and lower loss than the originals. The 2245H's (95dB/watt/m in these cabinets) are run direct from the amp and have no insertion losses from the sixty available tube watts per channel. The top gets at least ten clean watts/channel if it wants, but at 98dB/watt/m a quarter watt is pretty loud. That leaves a lot of headroom. And yes, I have calibrated the pads so they are at minimum positions to yield the required balance.

I have a theory that the JBL low power white paper http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf(written in the days when their large monitors were being routinely used at insane volumes and needed many, many watts of clean headroom to survive) is responsible for the perceived "need" for big power. The fact is, not many people play their JBL's at home with the Pete Townsend studio playback volumes. He has trouble hearing these days, and so would anyone else who did likewise. SAEMAN - Rick - likes to crank it up sometimes, but when he does I doubt he is running over three, maybe six watts continuous. I have heard this at his place. Give a X10 headroom and that would be 30 to 60 clean watts needed, tops. I suspect much less, I am being very conservative here.

So...the need for a hundred or several hundred watts of power for home use of efficient speakers, as opposed to SR which would wreck them anyway, is a myth. It adds sex appeal to the system for some, but good big amps simply don't sound as good as good smaller amps within their power ranges. Thirty years of using the Stax-o-meter has never failed to reveal the fact of that. One exception might be the products of Nelson Pass, but no personal experience here. Those are FET, not bipolar in any case and have far fewer technology inherent sonic problems to overcome in the first place. Even Nelson has found he can build a better sounding five or ten watt amp than a hundred watt and up amp. He and everyone else have also found that high power and single ended class A do not mix, at least in the practical world. If you have not tried that way, to quote Al Jolson, "You ain't heard nothin' yet."

Clark

Mr. Widget
09-06-2008, 11:05 AM
The fact is, not many people play their JBL's at home with the Pete Townsend studio playback volumes.I found it interesting reading between the lines on the thread "How Loud..." it would seem that most of us listen to music in the upper 80dB to mid 90dB range. I, like SAEMAN, will on occasion turn it up, but 99% of the time when I am really listening the sound rarely peaks above the low to mid 90s. There are those, myself included that have to turn it down when others are sleeping etc., but I would consider that the exception and not the rule even if it occurs often. The point being, there seems to be a comfortably "Loud" level that the vast majority of us listen to.

Most of us with these systems will achieve these SPLs with far under 10 watts, and I do agree with Ducatista that the first watt bit is quite important in critical listening. In my system, I have used a variety of large SS high power amps on the bass and it seems to work best, but for my mids where I typically only use milliwatts, even a very high quality high power amp sounds less "open" than a low power class A design. I have had excellent results with a SET tube amp as well as one of Nelson's "First Watt" low power amps that Ducatista mentioned.

However, if you aren't really critically listening and have never heard the difference, it is unlikely that you will miss it and a large Crown or Marantz or whatever will probably be quite satisfying.

On another discussion board, we were recently discussing "blind testing", and while people's ability to pick different interconnects and CD players was no better than random chance, in comparing several high quality amps, the lower watt Class A amp was preferred by 90% of the participants over the other amps.


Widget

John
09-06-2008, 03:11 PM
Hi Clark and Widget :)

As always very intresting view's and comment's.

But to keep things in perspective, I thought someone was complaining about a harsh upper midrange and HF on the model 19. So I threw out the Marantz.

I guess I was just keeping things simple.

I have no experiance with the DC stuff from Marantz, plus that stuff is not from the mid 70's more like 79-80 just before the company died. I had a 1150 in 1975 and then bumped up to the 1250 in 1977. The 1150 was ok at 75 a channel but the 1250 was rated at 125 a side and actually could hit about 160 per side before it clipped. Now maybe I am full of it but that 1250 was magical compared to the 1150. It almost had tube like qualities on the top end, to my ears anyway. As well as that quick solid bass note that a SS is good at. Oh and I have heard big Marantz recievers as well but they just did not seem to be on the same level as there intergrated amps from the same era.:)

By the way did anyone notice this thread started over 4 years ago?:blink:

Ian Mackenzie
09-06-2008, 04:13 PM
Nice room but those Bose 901/s?

I dont think a particular amp is going to be a bandaid for a problem in a loudspeaker.Rolling off the hgh's or masking the whole sound with 2nd harmonic distortion will however make it more listenable to a point.

Those smaller high quality amps will however thing out the best in a biamped two way.

In my own experience the a/b/c or blind test is for most lay listeners is complete nonsense.

Its true what you have never heard you will never miss.

Why? Listeners all have difference expieriencial history and levels of education.

Those they have used to midfi levels of reproduction have a scene where the ear/brain compensates and fills in the gaps so historically they learn to live with it.

Shove a nice SE SS amp or a valve amp in there and they might say Gee wize live those bottles but I prefer my Flame Linear.

Why? I went through his 10-15 years ago. I was not until I diversifed my listeninng and began a re education buy hearing at length a number of other systems I began to appreciate the virtues of things like class A


There are a lot of other aspects to this but there you are.

The best thing you can do with these system discussed above is marry them up with something "fit for the purpose". You cannot make a silk purse out of a sour's ear as they say.

If you want to make real advance talk to GPA. These driver's are held in high esteem and some even seem them hair to the Tad throne.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-06-2008, 04:27 PM
My own take on the high volume levels it that again its a learned response or experiencial thing.

Loud volume is like a drug, but it can be dangerous to your hearing.

Oddly enough the craving for higher levels is often in the quest for resolution and details.

Most of the bigger Altec and JBL system will get you in the ballpark of almost life like levels without appreciable distortion and little power compression.

So that is going on? Well something is missing? Its the refinement, nuance and ambiance that technologies like Beryillium bring to the table.

People have been known to even bypass their eleborate graphic Eq after appreciating what a true high resolution audio system is capable of.

Biamping with a muscle amp on the woofer and a nice little amp on the horns makes perfect sense.

Those big old system with one door stoppor old amp sure go loud but those totally miss the First Watt as Clark said.

Ian

John
09-06-2008, 04:46 PM
The best thing you can do with these system discussed above is marry them up with something "fit for the purpose". You cannot make a silk purse out of a sour's ear as they say.

Ian

That is what I was trying to suggest with the Marantz, same era and most likely similar voicing.

Keeping it simple,:blink:

Ian Mackenzie
09-07-2008, 12:34 AM
Yep.

Joe Alesi
09-07-2008, 02:08 AM
My thoughts on the Altec 19 Doubled up (excerpt from my post on Stereonet Australia):

Oh what a night....

Melbourne Audio Guild Meeting at John Corneille's premises

Friends, Romans...:

On arrival there was quite a team gathered outside in the carpark chewing the fat. It was great to see there was such a strong contingent from SNA: 56oval and two of his friends, Nick and Danny who I also know from the Audio Guild- small world. Moondog, Paul Spencer, Jaspert, Junkmail, Joz and I. Others in attendance (hopefully my taking the rollhttp://www.stereo.net.au/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif doesn't miss anyone): Mohan, Russell, Clint, Emil, Tony, Red, Geoff and John, our host of course.


Room:

John has a great sized carpeted room probably 4m x 8m or thereabouts with a reasonably high ceiling. The room is well treated for sound reflection using very nicely arrayed modular egg-carton reflector/diffusers as well as closely spaced steel purlins as a ceiling (see image).


System:

The system was composed of:
a marantz CD player,
Audio Research Preamp (Not 100% sure of the model; possibly LS-2B),
Lux OTL Amplifier or later in the night a pair of British 300B SE monoblocks and last but not least two pairs of Altec 19 speakers arranged in a stacked (D'Appolito) configuration as shown.

Music:

There was a wide selection of music played throughout the night: female vocal, jazz, orchestral, choral, blues, folk.... After an hour or so of listening the Lux OTL was swapped for a 300B SE British Amp . The Lux OTL had a beautiful sweet sound, but for the orchestral stuff I preferred the 300B SE amp, set to no feedback. I was awestruck again by how good high efficiency / horn systems can sound.

The Altec 19 arranged in D'Appolito style by John (see images) had incredible control over the air in the room. Rimsky Korsokov's Dance of the Tumblers (Reference Recordings "Tutti" CD Track 1) really sounded like we were 20-30m from the orchestra with an incredibly REAL sense of dynamics and true scale.... Hats off ! I played it twice...It should have been more,....http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Thank you:

Thankyou again to our very gracious host, John Corneille for his efforts in making this a very enjoyable night for me and I am sure all present.

Best
JA

analog addict
09-07-2008, 04:01 PM
Nice room but those Bose 901/s?

Merely a tuner stand at the time being. Got them for free, and when we finally move, I was planning on trying a couple of pairs of 901's in the garage as suggested by a fellow over at AK. (Those are series V, and I also have a pair of series II's in the current garage) I also have a Bose 1801 amp, so it seems like a likely combination....:p


That sounds like a world class tube compliment. It must sound stunning. That would be a great example of a transparent first watt....

Funny how it really is all about the synergy. I've rolled a lot of EL84's through that amp, and before I settled on the 7189A's, I had a quad of pristine late '50's Bugle Boy's in that amp. However, they just didn't fill out the low end in the 19's like the GE 7189A's do....:dont-know

BTW Joe, tell your friend I like his style. Never seen stacked 19's before. Musta sounded nice....:applaud:

Ducatista47
09-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Funny how it really is all about the synergy. I've rolled a lot of EL84's through that amp, and before I settled on the 7189A's, I had a quad of pristine late '50's Bugle Boy's in that amp. However, they just didn't fill out the low end in the 19's like the GE 7189A's do....:dont-know

If you ever want to experiment further, I highly recommend 6P14P-EV's, but with caution. They are the quietest, cleanest, best sounding, most powerful variant I am aware of, but they draw more heater current than an EL84 and will fry any amp without the tranny and power supply to handle it. They are NOS from the old Soviet Union, a rugged military variant. In Cyrillic, six pi fourteen pi dash EB. I knew they were OK in my amp because the designer put me on to them.

I bought mine from Audiotriodes.com (in France). The Euro vs dollar is making them pricey right now, but still low priced for NOS.

Clark

DaveV
09-07-2008, 07:47 PM
Hey Analog Addict. What timing! I just discovered the same thing with my 19's.
I had rebuilt a Scott 299 and 299C, both integrated amps, about ten years ago just to see what they sounded like.
At the time I had EV Regency speakers and although both Scotts sounded good with the EV's I stuck with my Mac C-22 preamp and 225 amp that sounded "more refined" to me and I packed the Scotts away.
A couple of nights ago I dragged the 299 out and the bass from my 19's is unreal with less than 2db boost on the bass controls and no loudness control engaged.
The highs are nice too but the mids are a tad laid back or not quite as clear as with the Mac stuff but the bass, lightning speed of the the sound and overall tonal charactrer is something to hear for sure.
Then I dragged the 299C out and it makes the 19 woofers go into overdrive too with 1 db of bass boost on each channel.
The 299 has 7189A outputs for around 15 watts per channel and the 299C has 7591A outputs for around 35 watts per channel and both sound like much higher power amps on the 19's.
Makes me wonder if a lower damping factor (than the 225) is at work here that the 416B's with that cabinet tuning like but I'd think there's more to it than just that.

SUPERBEE
09-07-2008, 08:00 PM
I prefer the A7s....

.

Heard both

A7's

altecspkrs
09-10-2008, 08:33 PM
How about a comparative analysis between JBL L200'Bs and Altec 846B Valencias,and 19's? ......(I still have a pair of L200B's as well as the 846B's, and while I've always felt the L200B's are very smooth and dynamic, I'm wondering if I'm hearing more detail and instrumental accuracy through the 846B's....ir is it just my hearing?) .... The bass of the 19's, to me, is on a par with the L200B's, but as I no longer have the 19's, I can't currently compare the rest of the range......Thanks!

Zilch
09-10-2008, 10:42 PM
My data is posted in these forums.

846Bs lack both highs and extended lows, and are excessively forward in the midrange. Nobody's home above 10 khz; 806As don't cut it.

L200Bs have more extended lows than either 846Bs or Model 19s, but the Model 19s beat both 846Bs and L200Bs in response flatness and VHF extension.

L200Bs have more VHF than 846Bs, but HL91's collapsing vertical dispersion renders the attempt largely fruitless. It didn't happen two-way 'til 4430.

"EUREKA!" said Giskard.

[Indeed.... :thmbsup: ]

altecspkrs
09-11-2008, 08:33 PM
Thanks, The wider vertical dispersion of the 811B horn over the H91, then, accounts for the greater "openness" (presence?) of the Altecs, it seems you're saying. My experience with both would seem to bear this out as well, and may account for my peception of more h.f. detail from my recently aquired 846B's vs, the L200B's I've had for some time. (I've also been aware of this openness with another system I put together with JBL 2445H h.f. drivers mounted to 2380A JBL HORNS, each sitting on top of a JBL 4647 cabinet housing a JBL 2225H woofer, and crossed over at 500 hz by means of a Altec N1285-8B network - VERY open and dynamic, re: the horn, and extended bass, too - but NO WAF, Wife Approval Factor, because of the black pro sound utility look) In my experience, ALL of the systems we're discussing herein, 846B's, 19's, L200B's, and the above, require h.f. boost equalisation of 6 to 8 db at 8K hz. and more at 16K hz to sound alive, with that "you are there" experience......Just as an aside, the black ones are confined to my "office", but I did put together another pair using JBL L200 cabinets with 2225H's, alone, inside,and the big JBL horns and Altec 500 hz crossovers on top, all masked sufficiently with new matching grooved foam grills for the cabs, and above, for the horns, to achieve enough WAF for another room, which we both inhabit from time to time! (And the sound is almost identical, too.) ......Just some rambling, for what it's worth. Thanks all.

altecspkrs
12-11-2008, 09:36 PM
Is 808-8A "Symbiotic" h.f. driver a plus, in Barcelona systems? Opinion of Barcelonas in general, as opposed to Model 19's and 846B Valencias? (See that Santiagos, smaller version of Barcelonas, have 806-8A drivers and same 411 woofers - opinion of this model, in comparison?

Thanks. :blink: