PDA

View Full Version : Altec Pleated Edge Dope?



analogman
05-17-2008, 09:24 PM
I want to press my 130As into daily service. They are original mint examples with the untreated surrounds. I know that applying this stuff to originals is tantamount to sacrilege to some, but I want to use them, they just sound so good.
Discussed this with Rick Cobb, this is an excerpt from his response:

Regarding the 130's, I don't know of anyone that manufactures the clear, viscous accordion edge surround dope like Altec use to sell for their 416, 604 & 605 speakers. That stuff was excellent and is what I would prefer to use if to treat the rolls. Altec dope would only add a small amount of needed damning to the cone and it would not raise the Fs. I would not try to paint water thinned PVA glue on the edges as some would suggest. That stuff is just not flexible enough when dried.

I am hoping someone here can help me locate or sell me enough of a comparable material to do two (2) 130As. I know these cones are very dry after nearly 50 years.

Any help with this would be well received.

Thank you for your help,
Craig

Gary L
05-18-2008, 07:25 AM
I have seen this question kicked around here, or variants of it, a few times now.

I do remember hearing from others either here or at the Altec site that Great Plains Audio (GPA) has made the stuff available in the past.
I can't say if they still do provide this black gunk in any form but I do like the way it perform on my Altec 414 and 416 woofers.

I don't even know if when I send a woofer out to GPA for a recone if the stuff is already on the accordion or if it is applied after the recone process is finished.

One thing I will caution you about with the goo. Very important to keep the speaker away from sun or heat as the stuff seems to never dry and remains to some degree a liquid when heated. As a normal corse of events I rotate my woofers to avoid unsightly running of the stuff and I think it also helps in avoiding VC sag in any one direction. Not sure if it does much of anything but I don't have woofers that have the drips like I have seen many times in the past.

Gary

Steve Mac
05-18-2008, 07:48 AM
Yeah, I remember a post on the altec site where Bill at GPA
mailed some of this material overseas. I thought it was this
surround goo we're talking about. I say call Bill...do not email
and I'm sure he can hook you up. He's a great guy.
www.greatplainsaudio.com

edgewound
05-18-2008, 12:47 PM
PVA comes in many different formulations...it's not just watered down white glue. The speaker application formulas have emulsions added that make for different flexibilities. The sealer for a foam surround would work well for the 130A as it's very flexible and will prevent the paper surround from cracking.

John
05-18-2008, 05:03 PM
I can't say if they still do provide this black gunk in any form but I do like the way it perform on my Altec 414 and 416 woofers.


I don't even know if when I send a woofer out to GPA for a recone if the stuff is already on the accordion or if it is applied after the recone process is finished.

Gary

The dope is clear and it is applied after the recone is complete.

jblwolf
05-19-2008, 02:41 AM
Craig,I checked with Waldom electroinics and they sell a product-part number AA-75 clear edge treatment dampener,it comes in 1 quart cans,1-800-435-2931,they have a min. order of $50 which stopped me from ordering,I also need this treatment but not a quart,maybe we can get a few members together and put in a order.Wolf

analogman
05-19-2008, 09:46 AM
Craig,I checked with Waldom electroinics and they sell a product-part number AA-75 clear edge treatment dampener,it comes in 1 quart cans,1-800-435-2931,they have a min. order of $50 which stopped me from ordering,I also need this treatment but not a quart,maybe we can get a few members together and put in a order.Wolf


Yes, I checked their web site too after reading of them in an old thread. They have (4) variants of this "AA-75" part #? Which AA-75 do we need :dont-know was my next question when I looked at their listing. I stopped there after seeing that a log in was required to get prices on line (something else to sign up for) and anticipated what you just told me, the old "minimum " purchase rub.

As far as a collective order, I'm all for it. I'd like to have a quart of the stuff if it's reasonable and any good.

Thanks for your efforts,
Craig

ratitifb
05-19-2008, 10:39 AM
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=175038

analogman
05-19-2008, 03:39 PM
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=175038


.....interesting but not relevant.
anecdotal at best.
Craig

analogman
05-20-2008, 08:35 AM
When I spoke to my rep,I was told there was only one size and only one type,what you may have seen was more than one size but they no longer carry a 4oz size.the others listed were labels for the cans.as for cost it was around $28 a qt but that's just at the top of my head or wishful thinking.a price check would be in order.I found out about this stuff from Image comm and was told this is the stuff they used on all of there cone kits for edge treatment.I've never used it but was willing to try it out.as for a qt yourself-great but I'm thinking like 1/4 or less oz per speaker is in order.if I got 16oz,I'm sure that would be more than enough.lets see if any other members want to jump on board and make up a order,I tryed to get a online price but it said to call a rep. I already have an account/rep so doing a price check would only be a email.(phone calls to order seem to work real fast but getting info over the phone seems to take forever)


Sounds good, thanks for your efforts. If it is $28.00 dollars a quart, then I'm down for (1). That takes care of more than half the required minimum. Buy the second to split up and we've hit the mark.
I can mail you a check if that helps.
You know that if we gave up on this due to lack of interest, next week this time there would be five posts regarding same. I say "lezzzz dooo it"!

Thanks again for your leg work,
Craig

analogman
05-20-2008, 08:41 AM
On another note; putting this stuff on my 130As is an irreversible commitment.
I would like to embark on this with a manufacturer sealed, unopened container of the material.
I'm certain you know what I'm saying.
Craig

Gary L
05-20-2008, 09:04 AM
The dope is clear and it is applied after the recone is complete.

Sorry to disagree John but the stuff Altec uses is jet black and looks just like tar when it drips down the cone from exposure to sun or heat!

Other substances used elsewhere may well be clear but not the Altec goo!

Gary

louped garouv
05-20-2008, 09:33 AM
stuff i've pulled excess off of altec woofers has been a slightly transparent brown when put on a piece of painted white metal...

almost looks black in a dark room, but it appears to be more dark brown to me....

analogman
05-20-2008, 09:33 AM
Give them a call to get a price quote/shipping charges,you may want to ask how long its been on the shelf,sealed cans,any other questions you have.

So you're not sticking with it?
I don't have an account with those folks.
I'm bewildered.
Craig

analogman
05-20-2008, 09:37 AM
Give them a call to get a price quote/shipping charges,you may want to ask how long its been on the shelf,sealed cans,any other questions you have.

What I was trying to express was simply I was down for a virgin can that hadn't been passed around.
Starting with as known a quantity as possible, that's all.

Craig

analogman
05-20-2008, 09:39 AM
stuff i've pulled excess off of altec woofers has been a slightly transparent brown when put on a piece of painted white metal...

almost looks black in a dark room, but it appears to be more dark brown to me....

On my 1960/61 "University" Medallion the pleated surround is done in a deep orange. I'd put whatever that stuff is on the 130As in an instant. Still supple after all these years and the driver works beautifully. No cracking, sags, runs or any bull shit.

Gary L
05-20-2008, 10:08 AM
stuff i've pulled excess off of altec woofers has been a slightly transparent brown when put on a piece of painted white metal...

almost looks black in a dark room, but it appears to be more dark brown to me....

Same here Louped, dark brown against a white piece of paper just like tar would be. Certainly not "Clear".

I suppose it also has to do with original cones or where they might have been reconed. Bill at GPA uses the Dark gunk just like Altec did.

Gary

johnaec
05-20-2008, 10:26 AM
I've also definitely seen "orange'ish" goop on old Altecs - some version of 414's, I think...

John

John
05-20-2008, 11:36 AM
Same here Louped, dark brown against a white piece of paper just like tar would be. Certainly not "Clear".

I suppose it also has to do with original cones or where they might have been reconed. Bill at GPA uses the Dark gunk just like Altec did.

Gary

Hi Gary I am not sure about where your getting your info from,:blink:

But, I know Bill at G.P.A. as well as his recone tech. I have been in his reconing shop many times over the last 4 years and have his goop right here beside me as I write this. It is clear. Also it is the same stuff Altec used as well.
By the way if you had a quart it will last you a lifetime or a couple hundred pairs of 15" woofers or maybe more.

About it having a light brown color? What effect do you think 30 plus years would have on a clear material. Just think about all the particules in the air over 30 years that get into it. And I suppose some color could leech out of the surround material as well.

I have heard this topic go round and round since this forum has begun and I think it will go on for ever. I tried to inform but. :(

Gary L
05-20-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm getting the info I am claiming from two brand spanking new recones I have sitting right beside me fresh from GPA.

I have never seen it in it's raw form, only on the surrounds and dripping down the cones or pooling at the bottoms of speakers exposed to heat or sun.

I have removed the stuff from old speakers that looked just like they were new except for the drips and pooling and I have placed it on white paper and all I can see is a tarry dark substance.

I don't understand how it can come from a can in a clear state and end up dark brown when it gets to me from OKC.

Guess I shouldn't argue because I have been wrong before but it sure does look like tar when it gets here.

I will talk with Bill as I have a few woofers ready to be sent out to him that will come back with black accordions all fresh and new.

Sometimes even the eyes can play tricks on us and this might be one of those times.

Gary

John
05-20-2008, 01:20 PM
Well you could scrape it off your brand new recones if you just have to see!!! althought I would not recommend you to do so.:no:

Or better yet just think of the water in the Bahamas, It looks blue but is infact clear.:beach:

analogman
05-20-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm getting the info I am claiming from two brand spanking new recones I have sitting right beside me fresh from GPA.

I have never seen it in it's raw form, only on the surrounds and dripping down the cones or pooling at the bottoms of speakers exposed to heat or sun.

I have removed the stuff from old speakers that looked just like they were new except for the drips and pooling and I have placed it on white paper and all I can see is a tarry dark substance.

I don't understand how it can come from a can in a clear state and end up dark brown when it gets to me from OKC.

Guess I shouldn't argue because I have been wrong before but it sure does look like tar when it gets here.

I will talk with Bill as I have a few woofers ready to be sent out to him that will come back with black accordions all fresh and new.

Sometimes even the eyes can play tricks on us and this might be one of those times.

Gary


Who gives a fuck? Do you have any help, or relevant input, with regard to what I asked for in post#1 at the start of this thread? I am aware that there is a multiplicity of products out there, and like everything else in this World, everyone has a favorite and knows what's best......but, my question/plea for help was very specific. That's why I asked for input here, at Rick's suggestion.
And as far as things starting out one color and winding up another, it's called chemistry. Like oil on dark gray paper will turn it BLACK.....Jesus Christ.......:bs:


I did not intend for my inquiry to spark yet another meaningless pissing contest over who's right or wrong. Rick Cobb said the material he used to get from Atec was clear. The treatment on my D130s is/was clear. The treatment on my "University" (corporate relative) 12s is a dark, translucent orange, "tinted" clear as it were These referenced "treatments" obviously penetrate and bond with the paper fibers like airplane dope, yet remain flexible, firm and somewhat soft.
BUT DRY TO THE TOUCH. No running, no sags, no drips, AND, it is clearly, what came from the factory. It migrates into and assumes the shape of the pleat. What the manufacturer used is what I want, OR, as close to it as I can get today. I don't give a shit what "Mannie, Mack and Moe" use, unless it's what I'm looking for. Then I'd like their number please, if you don't mind. This is the same insecurity shit that comes from equipment owners reading Stereophool. And it AIN'T HELPING ME FIND AN ANSWER :bs:
"Mine's Gotta Be The Best" "No, No, No, I'm right and you're wrong"
The stuff you keep hammering on sounds like some sort of tar substance, a topical fix. I wouldn't put any sort of shit like that on my 130As.
So....back to my question in post #1........

Please?
Craig

louped garouv
05-20-2008, 01:42 PM
Who gives a fuck? Do you have any help, or relevant input, with regard to what I asked for in post#1 at the start of this thread? I am aware that there is a multiplicity of products out there, and like everything else in this World, everyone has a favorite and knows what's best......but, my question/plea for help was very specific. That's why I asked for input here, at Rick's suggestion.
And as far as things starting out one color and winding up another, it's called chemistry. Like oil on dark gray paper will turn it BLACK.....Jesus Christ.......:bs:


Craig


Craig,

it's the internet... no reason to get in a huff about someone's postings...

take a valium or xanax or something...

geez....

in my view, he's just trying to clear up (no pun intended) issues surrounding the goop....
you asked about Altec goop, and he responded with what he has experienced, as did I....

is it really necessary to flame someone for that?

he even admitted that he may be mistaken...


Guess I shouldn't argue because I have been wrong before but it sure does look like tar when it gets here.

edgewound
05-20-2008, 01:46 PM
AA-75 from Waldom is clear. The Altec suff was clear too. I haven't used the goop in years namely because Altec stopped using it when Mark IV Audio, then EVI took over. They went with AirFlex PVA's that have two different flexibilities...soft for foam sealing, a bit stiffer for cloth surrounds. GPA apparently goes old school. I prefer PVA, because it doesn't run when it dries clear...and it's water based.

It's possible that different suppliers were used at different times and maybe that can explain the color difference such as some might have been amber.

Sometime in the life of JBL's paper surrounds, and also Waldom aftermarket cones, a black sprayed on rubber coating was used as well...early 1970's for JBL, much later for Waldom.

JBL's now have an epoxy coating that never really dries totally, to stay flexible.

analogman
05-20-2008, 02:06 PM
Craig,

it's the internet... no reason to get in a huff about someone's postings...

take a valium or xanax or something...

geez....

in my view, he's just trying to clear up (no pun intended) issues surrounding the goop....
you asked about Altec goop, and he responded with what he has experienced, as did I....

is it really necessary to flame someone for that?

he even admitted that he may be mistaken...


If pointing out the facts is "flaming" then I guess I'm guilty as charged, although I have no idea what in the Hell that's supposed to mean.

If he wants to "clear up" issues then I suggest reviving one of the old threads where this dumb ass, and pointless debate has already taken place a dozen times or more and always left unresolved once folks tired of it.

My mistake was that I phrased the question with too many "buzz" issues. I should have started a thread with the question: Does anyone know what the orange rubbery material was that "University" Loudspeakers used to treat their transducers with pleated paper surrounds?

If I knew that, and could buy some, then my "JBL Technical Problem" would be solved.

Craig

analogman
05-20-2008, 02:12 PM
AA-75 from Waldom is clear. The Altec suff was clear too. I haven't used the goop in years namely because Altec stopped using it when Mark IV Audio, then EVI took over. They went with AirFlex PVA's that have two different flexibilities...soft for foam sealing, a bit stiffer for cloth surrounds. GPA apparently goes old school. I prefer PVA, because it doesn't run when it dries clear...and it's water based.

It's possible that different suppliers were used at different times and maybe that can explain the color difference such as some might have been amber.

Sometime in the life of JBL's paper surrounds, and also Waldom aftermarket cones, a black sprayed on rubber coating was used as well...early 1970's for JBL, much later for Waldom.

JBL's now have an epoxy coating that never really dries totally, to stay flexible.

Thank you for making the effort to understand what it is I'm looking for. You also clearly understand that my intent was NOT to take a poll of what everyone likes, what their favorite tech uses etc..........

Please PM me when you have time, with specifics of what you recommend I use and where/how I may procure some, if you would.

Regards,
Craig

louped garouv
05-20-2008, 02:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war



Flaming is the hostile and insulting interaction between Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) users.

i would think this exchange qualifies...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=210426&postcount=25



My mistake was that I phrased the question with too many "buzz" issues. I should have started a thread with the question: Does anyone know what the orange rubbery material was that "University" Loudspeakers used to treat their transducers with pleated paper surrounds?


it would have been in the wrong forum then though...

:)

analogman
05-20-2008, 02:38 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war



i would think this exchange qualifies...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=210426&postcount=25




it would have been in the wrong forum then though...

:)


God Save Us :(

John
05-20-2008, 03:05 PM
AA-75 from Waldom is clear. The Altec suff was clear too. GPA apparently goes old school. I prefer PVA, because it doesn't run when it dries clear...and it's water based.

Hi Edge I am glad you chimed in as you know what your talking about since you do this for a living, I hope these guys accept what you saying:)

By the way the goop that G.P.A. uses does not thin with water.

It can be thinned with M.E.K.:blah:

John
05-20-2008, 03:20 PM
If you notice the top of that strip of painters tape is 1/4" above the surface of the goop. That 1/4" accounts for the 4 pairs of woofers I have treated. The jar is 2-1/2" dia.

analogman
05-20-2008, 04:07 PM
I want to press my 130As into daily service. They are original mint examples with the untreated surrounds. I know that applying this stuff to originals is tantamount to sacrilege to some, but I want to use them, they just sound so good.
Discussed this with Rick Cobb, this is an excerpt from his response:

Regarding the 130's, I don't know of anyone that manufactures the clear, viscous accordion edge surround dope like Altec use to sell for their 416, 604 & 605 speakers. That stuff was excellent and is what I would prefer to use if to treat the rolls. Altec dope would only add a small amount of needed damning to the cone and it would not raise the Fs. I would not try to paint water thinned PVA glue on the edges as some would suggest. That stuff is just not flexible enough when dried.

I am hoping someone here can help me locate or sell me enough of a comparable material to do two (2) 130As. I know these cones are very dry after nearly 50 years.

Any help with this would be well received.

Thank you for your help,
Craig



Thank you, "Edgewound"
It only took (2) pages! :bouncy:

Craig

Zilch
05-21-2008, 12:31 AM
If you notice the top of that strip of painters tape is 1/4" above the surface of the goop. That 1/4" accounts for the 4 pairs of woofers I have treated. The jar is 2-1/2" dia.Painter's tape is blue, not green.

[ALSO, is that a booger or a gnat in your goop? :) ]

John
05-21-2008, 12:38 AM
Sorry but it says right on the inside of the roll "Green painters mate"

Do not forget this is Canada!!!;)

And there is nothing in the goop, but if there was something, it would be well preserved:bouncy:

Gary L
05-21-2008, 06:31 AM
Who gives a fuck? Do you have any help, or relevant input, with regard to what I asked for in post#1 at the start of this thread? I am aware that there is a multiplicity of products out there, and like everything else in this World, everyone has a favorite and knows what's best......but, my question/plea for help was very specific. That's why I asked for input here, at Rick's suggestion.
And as far as things starting out one color and winding up another, it's called chemistry. Like oil on dark gray paper will turn it BLACK.....Jesus Christ.......:bs:


I did not intend for my inquiry to spark yet another meaningless pissing contest over who's right or wrong. Rick Cobb said the material he used to get from Atec was clear. The treatment on my D130s is/was clear. The treatment on my "University" (corporate relative) 12s is a dark, translucent orange, "tinted" clear as it were These referenced "treatments" obviously penetrate and bond with the paper fibers like airplane dope, yet remain flexible, firm and somewhat soft.
BUT DRY TO THE TOUCH. No running, no sags, no drips, AND, it is clearly, what came from the factory. It migrates into and assumes the shape of the pleat. What the manufacturer used is what I want, OR, as close to it as I can get today. I don't give a shit what "Mannie, Mack and Moe" use, unless it's what I'm looking for. Then I'd like their number please, if you don't mind. This is the same insecurity shit that comes from equipment owners reading Stereophool. And it AIN'T HELPING ME FIND AN ANSWER :bs:
"Mine's Gotta Be The Best" "No, No, No, I'm right and you're wrong"
The stuff you keep hammering on sounds like some sort of tar substance, a topical fix. I wouldn't put any sort of shit like that on my 130As.
So....back to my question in post #1........

Please?
Craig

All of the relevant input I had to offer can be found in post #2 of this thread.
I find myself very sad for even having offered you that much input at all.

I don't have a clue why you felt the need to get upset and dig so deeply into your vocabulary shortcommings.

The exchange of information and the combined knowledge of others here is why I am here. I don't care to argue with anyone and can only speak from the experiences I have which is what I have done.

I have learned much from many of these threads and from many of the fine people who frequent them. You are not one of them but thanks for the lesson just the same.

Gary

analogman
05-21-2008, 07:46 AM
All of the relevant input I had to offer can be found in post #2 of this thread.
I find myself very sad for even having offered you that much input at all.

I don't have a clue why you felt the need to get upset and dig so deeply into your vocabulary shortcommings.

The exchange of information and the combined knowledge of others here is why I am here. I don't care to argue with anyone and can only speak from the experiences I have which is what I have done.

I have learned much from many of these threads and from many of the fine people who frequent them. You are not one of them but thanks for the lesson just the same.

Gary


I revisited post #2 and I fail to see it's relevance to my initial question?
Some anecdotal rambling of how "GPA" fuc&ed up your Altec woofers with black tar, rendering them unsuitable for use on warm or sunny days.

Many thanks for your input, but this is not what I was looking for.

Craig

analogman
05-21-2008, 08:00 AM
All of the relevant input I had to offer can be found in post #2 of this thread.
I find myself very sad for even having offered you that much input at all.

I don't have a clue why you felt the need to get upset and dig so deeply into your vocabulary shortcommings.

The exchange of information and the combined knowledge of others here is why I am here. I don't care to argue with anyone and can only speak from the experiences I have which is what I have done.

I have learned much from many of these threads and from many of the fine people who frequent them. You are not one of them but thanks for the lesson just the same.

Gary


Almost forgot:
Gary you'll be pleased to learn that a respected member of the forum graciously did me a "solid" and is taking some of his valuable time to pack up, ship and sell me some of the appropriate material needed to address my concerns with the old 130As. He understood (took the time to read) what it was that I was looking for. He also clearly understands that there are aesthetics involved with certain pieces, even when the problem is a technical/mechanical one.

Craig

Gary L
05-21-2008, 08:16 AM
Almost forgot:
Gary you'll be pleased to learn that a respected member of the forum graciously did me a "solid" and is taking some of his valuable time to pack up, ship and sell me some of the appropriate material needed to address my concerns with the old 130As. He understood (took the time to read) what it was that I was looking for. He also clearly understands that there are aesthetics involved with certain pieces, even when the problem is a technical/mechanical one.

Craig

GOOD FOR YOU!