Newbie needs help - Identifying Sovereign I ?

[kingston]

Hello Community,

owning a pair of Lancer 99's speaker was so far my only connection to vintage JBL Stuff so far. I found scanning this nice forum for pictures,catalogs and technical information very helpful.

I would appreciate your help and experience now in detecting something else. I have found these pictures and wonder, what model that may be:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1676/dsc04392vz1.jpg

As far as i have checked the pictures and datas here in the forum i would say that it is a C60 Sovereign I equipped with the S8R. I think so because of the looks of the Top and the bottom of the cabinet. The rear looks like that:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1314/dsc04391cz5.jpg


This is probably the N7000:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5808/dsc04388hn9.jpg

Here is the LX5:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/6567/dsc04389db7.jpg

The only thing that makes me wondering is the fact that there is no JBL sign or serial number tag on the back or in the corner of the detachable front . And i have not seen this style of pleated fabric in any catalog:

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3254/dsc04395wv2.jpg

A close up of the fabric :

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9969/dsc04396ac8.jpg


So folks, if there is anybody out there who can throw light in the dark please chip in your 2 cents...


Regards

Tom

[yggdrasil]

You will have to at least remove the lenses to get an idea of which midrange driver is used.

Then there are some differnces to the cabinets, compared to mine:
* the grilles have different mounting mechanism
* the woofers/radiators use the newer mounting clamps, while mine use the through hole.
* In the back there should be a Sovereign sign.
* The grilles use different fabric.
* There is no JBL tag on the grilles.

[BMWCCA]

Quite common back then to build your own cabinets, JBL even supplied the plans and drawings. I suspect this is a home-built but it looks to be well done, even if they did use rather common kitchen-cabinet latches to hold the grilles in place! Of course this could be a modification of an original JBL, too, and I wouldn't be the one to say. Is this something you've actually found or just photos to contemplate?

[kingston]

Hi,

thanks for your comments !

@yggdrasil : Yes, all you said seems right to me. I just thought that there might me some modifications through the years these cabints were build and that it might be an early version or something like that.

@BMWCCA: i never thought of that ( a custom own-build cabinet) but you might be right ! The actual owner said something about those not being the original cabinets but he was kind of strange anyway so i got an overload of information during my visit :D. Oddly he even has the matching C68 Sovereign III cabinet. Probably also home-made but to me it looks a lot like the original:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9884/dsc04393ub0.jpg

I thought that the 075 ( i mean the "bullet-nose"-style Ring Radiator) and the existance of the N7000 automatically speaks for the S8R System. But i will try to verify by removing the lenses and checking the midrange driver.

Well, i might get my hands on that set but as at least the woodwork doesn't seem to be genuine JBL ( even if it is done nice and good) the question is: how much does that decrease the value ?

In other words : what would be a reasonable market price for the 2 speakers and the C68 ? Considering both that it is a S8R in working ,unrestored condition ( i guess S7R would be 50 % of that) and the "home-build"-cabinets as well ?

Btw, it is really finished very close to the original as this close picture show:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7885/dsc04398zh0.jpg


I know that prices and values are common questions here but any comment would be helpful as i have problems to figure that out in this special case.

The original owner hasn't said anything yet.

Thanks again in advance !

Regards

Tom

[BMWCCA]

I thought that the 075 ( i mean the "bullet-nose"-style Ring Radiator) and the existance of the N7000 automatically speaks for the S8R System.Most likely, but of course you know the "R" simply means "passive radiator" and the 075 is what differentiates an S8 from an S7 (or S8R from S7R). Figure the value on the components less whatever work they need (surrounds, caps, diaphragms) and consider the cabinets as packing material only and you'll be safe.

[yggdrasil]

S7R has the LE85, while the S8R have the 375 midrange driver. This is where the real difference in value lies with these systems.

You'll just have to search eBay for the parts prices.

[kingston]

Thanks.

If i sum up the parts (not all are listed in Ebay, for example i didn' find any N7000 or HL93 ) i estimate maybe something like 2k$ or 1.5k€ for the S8R-System.
And about the half for a S7R.

Would you agree with that range ?

Again, i just want to make a reasonable offer and i don't want to sell it directly afterwards.

And after all i didn't even hear it yet...

Best regards

Tom

[BMWCCA]

S7R has the LE85, while the S8R have the 375 midrange driver. This is where the real difference in value lies with these systems.Yes. Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say, and fumbled. ;)
While only the S8/R system came with the 075 from the factory as compared to the S7/R, it doesn't mean someone couldn't have just added the N7000 and 075 to an S7R without upgrading the mid/high driver, especially if this really is a homemade system. Easy enough to take it apart and check the drivers.

[hosee]

As it turns out I own a couple of custom cabinet Sovereign speakers and also own a couple of original Sovereign speakers. My custom speakers came as an S7 system and I added the 077 and N7000 (probably should have gotten a slightly higher crossover) which is exactly what is mentioned here whereas the original JBLs are S8s. The cabinets appear very well made with the same grill attaching mechanism and speaker clamping (MA15) as shown in yours. I actually like it better than the original. Other differences between the original and the custom is that the cabinet itself is shorter in height and the baffle is not slanted as the original is. The grill cloth is different also and there is no JBL badging or envelope on the back. As far as quality of craftmanship, the custom is every bit as nice as the original and I have owned it since the 70s and have resisted selling them more than once when offers to buy were made.

[kingston]

Ok, now the thing gets clearer. So it was possible to have a S7R and dress it up with a 075 and a N7000. This looks then a lot like an original S8R, right ?

Sorry for my questions but that's some complicated field when you're not familiar. But hey, on the other side that's what makes it interesting.

@hossee: Thanks for your story ! Thats pretty much what probably happend to the cabinets i have mentioned. I'd also say that they are pretty well made and are not nescessarily worse then the originals.

I had the time to check the "Soverigns" and i have removed the lens. If i measure from the "outer" edge of the horn to the little seam that is visible i measure close to 5 inch. The remaining distance to the inner end of the horn is about 2 1/2 inch.

Here is a - admittedly bad executed :D - drawing:

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8836/huwa5.png


I read somewhere here that the 375/HL93 measures about 5 inch in this concern. The 175/HL91 combination should be longer ( 7 inch ?) .

Is this correct and does that speak for a S8R or is this just my wishful thinking ?

Best regards

Tom

[hosee]

It appears that you may have the S8R. I just measured a center channel speaker that I built using a NOS 2440 using a HL93 and the depth measures approx 4.5 inches. Also, the 375/2440 is a 2" driver and the LE85/2420 is 1" which is fairly easy to distinguish looking at the horn opening. A 3-way sovereign with the 1" driver is similar to the L-300 which is a very popular speaker. The radiator should give the sovereign somewhat of a kick at the lower frequencies. All that said, the 375/2440 sounds better in my opinion.

[subwoof]

All of the dual 15 cabs ( sovereign and Olympus ) I have in my "someday" room have removable rear panels that are different that yours so it looks likely that you have a set of custom cabinets and an S8R package since the 075 added to the S7R wasn't that common. Pull the lens and post a pic.

sub

[Zilch]

Your estimate of value is off by 100%.

Those cabinets are beautifully made.

$4000 for S8Rs, $2000 for S7Rs.... :yes:

[kingston]

Are they really THAT valuable ?!? Man, i didn't know that...

I took 2 pictures yesterday but i don't know if they are really helpful:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/15/dsc04436wh6.jpg


and


http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1291/dsc04437ys5.jpg


Maybe the pictures are too close.

Removing the rear panel of the cabinet appears to be circuitous. But i have to do it in order to be sure i guess.

Is the midrange driver easy to see ?

Regards

Tom

[kingston]

Hello,

i have checked the cabinets and there is unfortunately no way to open the rear panel without destroying it . More or less. No screws, nothing. Probably glued.

So, what can i do to determine the midrange driver from the outside ?

I saw a picture of a S7R recently in an auction. The horn sections "Throat" looked like that:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3259/tzjtzxk6.jpg


I would say that this looks deeper and smaller in the end but maybe that's just my impression.

Any help is highly appreciated, i have to offer something to the guy and the equipment is the key to my proposal.

Best regards

Tom

EDIT: Typos

[BMWCCA]

Pull one or both crossovers and go in there with a flashlight.

[kingston]

I will do that ,thanks for the hint. I just hope that i see something as the Crossovers are at the bottom and not on the right top corner as it came with the genuine JBL Cabinets.

Regards

Tom

[John]

Well I can tell you this for sure, the cabinets are copies. If they were JBL issue they would have the xovers located in the top right hand corner of the back panel. As far as the Mid driver it looks to be a 2 inch to me. When looking past the length of the horn you can see the black throat portion of the 375 driver.

[kingston]

Thanks John !

I guess we can be sure now that the cabinets are homemade, so far, so good.

Concerning the Driver: would you so kind and explain to me where the diameter (or something else) has to be 2 inch to be a 375 ?
And i am not quite sure where that black throut ( i guess you mean throut ? ) part is visible where you might detect a 375.

Sorry to bother you guys but i have to be as sure as possible what is in these cabinets as i see the guy this weekend and we have to go the whole hog.

Maybe he accepts my offer that is based on the assumption that it just a S7R...if it's a S8R it's just gift from heaven.

Regards


Tom

[John]

Thanks John !
Concerning the Driver: would you so kind and explain to me where the diameter (or something else) has to be 2 inch to be a 375 ?
And i am not quite sure where that black throut ( i guess you mean throut ? ) part is visible where you might detect a 375
Regards
Tom

At the point where the driver ends and the horn starts.
It will be 2" and if you measure down around the mesh screen it should be around 1-7/8" :blah:

[kingston]

Thanks John, i got ya and i will measure directly where the mesh screen is. I hope for the 2''.

Do you know by chance the diameter if it has the S7R -Driver in comparison ? Just to be very sure.

I'll keep you all informed.

Regards

Tom

[yggdrasil]

Do you know by chance the diameter if it has the S7R -Driver in comparison ? Just to be very sure.

The LE85 has a 1" exit.

[subwoof]

that IS the S8R and the driver IS the 375. I have the same combo less than 10 feet from this computer.

Go get 'em.

sub

[kingston]

THAT'S what i want to hear ;)

Thanks everybody here in this round, i'll toss you all a virtual one ...:cheers:

I'm really excited ,you're the first ones to be informed.

Regards

Tom

[Zilch]

They appear to be S-8.

Stick your camera in the crossover hole.

*Click* :D

[kingston]

I bought them ! The Speakers and the Sovereign III !

The price was right, even if i had to pay a hauler and some beers for my buddy...:D

And the best: as already assumed they are S8R :applaud:

Thanks to this forum for the help and assistance, i can't wait to hear them...

Regards

Tom

[Zilch]

Sovereign III is the C68 equipment cabinet in the U.S.....

[kingston]

Yes, C68 would be more correct, i just saw it named Sovereign III in a catalog.

Actually it is neither a C86 or a III as it appears to be custom made anyway but it is very well done, as well as the cabinets themselves.

And that stuff is heavy...

BTW, i did as BMWCCA said, i removed one Crossover and used a flashlight. But i didn't see anything except the decal of the HL93 Horn wihich was a good sign.

But as i couldn't see the Midrange driver through the crossover hole i had the idea to stick in my cellular and make a photo of the decal of the midrange driver. That's where old stufff meets new stuff..:D

I felt like a veterinarian with a cow when i had my arm in the Cabinet :D but the photo showed the magic 375 number so everything was good.

Regards

Tom

[coffeecup]

Believe it or not, i found a pair of Sovereign I's at a Salvation Army for $100. I sold them on ebay for 5000+ to a guy in LA who spoke little english, but had cash and was sooo happy. All the seals were there, but the surrounds were deteriorated, so i never 'heard' them. I wish i still had the pictures:banghead: Mine were black with draped black cloth between the frames, and they did say jbl and "sovereign I" on the back with a "!" badge