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stevem
04-07-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm currently using a pair of 2235 woofers as subs, each in their own ported 5 cu ft box. Are any of the newer JBL 15 inch woofers considered better as subs? Which ones? Thanks.

oznob
04-07-2008, 01:50 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-SUB1500-15in-Subwoofer-Pair-SUPERB_W0QQitemZ170207814406QQihZ007QQcategoryZ327 5QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

IMHO, it is hard to beat the 2235H! I have heard good things about the SUB1500 however. There is a nice looking pair on ebay currently.

stevem
04-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Thanks for the info. I remember these woofers from when Parts Express was selling out some old stock. Do you know where I can get the Thiel-Small parameters for these? Also, do you have any idea how these compare to the JBL W1500H?

grumpy
04-07-2008, 03:59 PM
There was a different post w/ Revel notes, but this might get you going:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52517&postcount=439

W1500H? ... evolution of SUB1500 ... more Xmax from what others have said...

toddalin
04-07-2008, 05:29 PM
I'm currently using a pair of 2235 woofers as subs, each in their own ported 5 cu ft box. Are any of the newer JBL 15 inch woofers considered better as subs? Which ones? Thanks.


I tested a 2205 reconed as 2235 and W15GTI in identical chambers of the same cabinet and the W15GTI was better below 40 Hz and blew the 2235 away below 30 Hz. It was actually more linear across the frequency band to 1KHz too. :blink: But they need lots of power. I push about 800 WRMS into it.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/center-2235-w15gti.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Woofers.jpg

Robh3606
04-07-2008, 07:01 PM
I'm currently using a pair of 2235 woofers as subs, each in their own ported 5 cu ft box. Are any of the newer JBL 15 inch woofers considered better as subs? Which ones? Thanks.


I would stick with what you have. The newer 15's are rare as hens teeth. You doing these for music HT or both?? If you want to bring the house down you might want to look at an 18" 2242 or 2245's. Gonna need some big boxes though.

readswift
04-07-2008, 07:04 PM
parallel 2234 goin to beat it in no time :D

Robh3606
04-07-2008, 07:06 PM
parallel 2234 goin to beat it in no time :D

In that volume I would be looking at a 2242.

Rob:)

stevem
04-07-2008, 08:21 PM
I would stick with what you have. The newer 15's are rare as hens teeth. You doing these for music HT or both?? If you want to bring the house down you might want to look at an 18" 2242 or 2245's. Gonna need some big boxes though.

These will be for music and HT. My room isn't that big, so 18 inch woofers are going to be overkill. I've got a thing about stereo subs for some reason. I was just trying to find out if there would be anything better to hand off to my 1401Nd mid bass drivers.

Finding and acquiring the rare drivers are part of the fun of this hobby for me. :)

Mr. Widget
04-07-2008, 09:59 PM
I was just trying to find out if there would be anything better to hand off to my 1401Nd mid bass drivers. How low will you be running your 1401Nd drivers?

The 2235H is a nice woofer, for most music it plays about as low as most people would want, however for HT duty, it's limited Xmax will cause it to run out of steam on many soundtracks.

If your crossover is at 80Hz or below, I would strongly suggest the JBL Sub1500 or the newer W1500H. These can be used in small sealed or vented cabinets and will produce amazingly good deep bass for music or movies. I would also recommend that you give them a bit of electrical encouragement. The most bang for the buck in that department comes from using the Velodyne SMS-1. By bang for the buck, I mean SOTA performance at an affordable price. I'd recommend the Velodyne with any sub... at least any sub that is seriously robust. A 2235H used as a sub can easily be overdriven and destroyed.

Widget

Don Mascali
04-08-2008, 03:53 AM
[quote=stevem;206771]My room isn't that big, so 18 inch woofers are going to be overkill. /quote]


Naaa... Too Much is just right.

Robh3606
04-08-2008, 05:12 AM
A 2235H used as a sub can easily be overdriven and destroyed.


?????

Rob:)

hjames
04-08-2008, 05:20 AM
A 2235H used as a sub can easily be overdriven and destroyed.

Widget

OMIGAWD! (save the kitties!)

4313B
04-08-2008, 05:38 AM
A 2235H used as a sub can easily be overdriven and destroyed.
?????The mass controlling ring as used in the 2235H has fallen out of favor due to the limiting of xMax (This doesn't mean that people with a B380 and BX63 or BX63A should immediately start modifying that particular system design). Current thought is that the 2234H along with a few dB of EQ to fill in the resulting loss of VLF extension is a better solution. The Velodyne SMS-1 Mr. Widget recommends fills the bill. However, the Velodyne SMS-1 probably warrants a more modern transducer design such as the 1500 SUB or W1500H as Mr. Widget also states. Both of these transducers are significantly more robust and designed to handle the stress of small sealed enclosures. They are designed to handle EQ on the bottom end. Very small sealed box plus EQ. JBL has also used them in slightly larger vented boxes as well.

If one doesn't have the kind of funds required to run these modern subs one can go with something like the W15GTi mentioned by toddalin above. This driver has a higher Q and shouldn't require any EQ. It will dump a ton of bass tones into a room. It is specifically designed to sweep the field of competition in automotive applications but everyone is allowed to use any transducer any way they want regardless of design or intended application.

Here is the voltage drive for a W1500H in the 1500 Array, ~ 4 dB of boost at ~ 26 Hz. Compare with the voltage drive of the BX63 or BX-63A which I have posted numerous times on the forums over the years. I've also posted the voltage drive of the B212 several times over the years which uses no boost at the bottom of the curve, but rather a staggered two-pole cut at the top of the curve. Instead of fretting about all this though just use the Velodyne SMS-1 :p

4313B
04-08-2008, 06:13 AM
As an aside - we used to use the 2235H in large sixth order vented alignments way back when there wasn't a whole lot of VLF content on the media available at the time. They were "good" down to 20 Hz with the bump filter set at 20 Hz in the old 5234A. Modern media obsoletes such systems unless the power input is carefully monitored and controlled.

Mr. Widget
04-08-2008, 08:34 AM
As an aside - we used to use the 2235H in large sixth order vented alignments way back when there wasn't a whole lot of VLF content on the media available at the time. They were "good" down to 20 Hz with the bump filter set at 20 Hz in the old 5234A. Modern media obsoletes such systems unless the power input is carefully monitored and controlled.That is exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for the thorough posts explaining where I was going with this.

If you watch an action movie at the DTS reference level of 105dB, there are plenty of films that will also cause the 2235Hs in a 5 cu ft enclosure tuned to ~30Hz to slap those mass rings silly. You can filter your signal below 30Hz, but comparing that to a Sub1500 that pressurizes the room to 20Hz and below, you are really missing something.


Widget

stevem
04-08-2008, 08:43 AM
How low will you be running your 1401Nd drivers?Widget

I'm using an 80 Hz crossover at 48 db/octave. I have the lows cut below 15 Hz at 12 db/octave. I use a BSS Omnidrive 366T for all of my crossovers, so I can (and do) use some judicious response tailoring and level matching. Power is from a Bryston 4BST (250 w/ch) amp. Would I gain anything with the SMS-!?

Mr. Widget
04-08-2008, 10:43 PM
I use a BSS Omnidrive 366T for all of my crossovers...Power is from a Bryston 4BST (250 w/ch) amp. Would I gain anything with the SMS-!?That's a nice amp. You would gain from getting a better crossover and using the SMS-1 as an EQ only, I don't like it's DSP clouding the response above the subwoofer.

If you are happy with that BSS DSP you would only gain 8 additional parametric control points and the rather excellent bass interpretation/correction that the SMS-1 offers. I can match what the SMS-1 does using CLIO and DEQX, but it isn't easy. The SMS-1 is easy and sounds really good too.

You can pick it up brand new on eBay from dealers selling it just above cost for around $500... quite a bargain, I'd say


Widget

Robh3606
04-09-2008, 07:59 AM
If you watch an action movie at the DTS reference level of 105dB, there are plenty of films that will also cause the 2235Hs in a 5 cu ft enclosure tuned to ~30Hz to slap those mass rings silly.

Hello Widget

I am not questioning the superiority of the other drivers or that they will go lower. That's a given for obvious reasons. I just don't get the slapping mass rings. With both 4344 in 5 cubic ft and now a B380 I have yet to ring the bell using 2235's. I have been able to get 121A to clank but only in a sealed box at high SPL levels.

That 105dB is a peak level that should be no sweat over the designed bandwidth for a B380. At least in a typical sized room.

Anyone else slapping around the mass rings and if so on what DVD's??

Be nice to have a list to torture test a system.

Rob:)

4313B
04-09-2008, 08:11 AM
Anyone else slapping around the mass rings and if so on what DVD's??Quite common and it started when CD's hit the market. It was a source of warranty repair.
With both 4344 in 5 cubic ftDoesn't really count.
and now a B380 I have yet to ring the bell using 2235's.Shouldn't happen very often in the B380 with the BX63 due to the bump filter.

I have been able to get 121A to clank but only in a sealed box at high SPL levels.A 20 Hz filter should take care of that. They took a real beating when CD's first came out.

hjames
04-09-2008, 08:36 AM
That 105dB is a peak level that should be no sweat over the designed bandwidth for a B380. At least in a typical sized room.

Anyone else slapping around the mass rings and if so on what DVD's??

Be nice to have a list to torture test a system.

Rob:)

Chase down a copy of the 2005 Ewan McGregor flick "Stay" (http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Stay/70038941?trkid=190393) - there is a scene in the doctor's office where he smacks a thick glass window wall and we thought for sure our picture window had cracked. I figured afterwards it HAD to be a mass ring smacking bottom (B-380 fed by bridged Citation 22)
Kind of a Vanilla Sky movie otherwise ...

toddalin
04-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Hello Widget

I am not questioning the superiority of the other drivers or that they will go lower. That's a given for obvious reasons. I just don't get the slapping mass rings. With both 4344 in 5 cubic ft and now a B380 I have yet to ring the bell using 2235's. I have been able to get 121A to clank but only in a sealed box at high SPL levels.

That 105dB is a peak level that should be no sweat over the designed bandwidth for a B380. At least in a typical sized room.

Anyone else slapping around the mass rings and if so on what DVD's??

Be nice to have a list to torture test a system.

Rob:)


I've "slapped" the mass controlling ring on my 2235 several times when I use this speaker as a sub in parallel with my W15GTI. (Always a quick reach for the volume control!) Longer ports, or sealing one of the two ports, reduced the excursion and 2235 slapping.

I also used to bottom out the 130As when used as subs (with lots of bottom end eq).

I've never slapped anything with the W15GTI, but the architecture of the speaker probably makes this a near impossibility.

When the W15GTI starts to "overexcursion," the other voice coil comes into the opposing magnetic gap repelling the movement.

4313B
04-09-2008, 11:13 AM
W15GTi


I've never slapped anything with the W15GTI, but the architecture of the speaker probably makes this a near impossibility.Yep. It truly is the JBL 15-inch driver for the readership of this forum. Easily obtainable and easy to use. Plus it is nicely built. I can see why you are so one-note about it. The Harman website has the various documents with respect to how to use it so it is no mystery for anyone (I've posted those links numerous times and they should come up via the Search feature).

Mr. Widget
04-09-2008, 11:08 PM
That 105dB is a peak level that should be no sweat over the designed bandwidth for a B380. At least in a typical sized room.The B380 without a proper high pass filter will have difficulty with many DVDs that have content below 30Hz at a 0dB level. The problem is that once you get below the frequency that any reflex box is tuned to, the woofer is unloaded and it will flail wildly if driven hard. Room size isn't much of an issue, it is a mostly a matter of frequency at anything above a few watts.



Be nice to have a list to torture test a system.I realize that you don't run into this sort of thing because you primarily watch those fine Merchant Ivory films :D, but if you pop in a Terminator film, or The newish Transformers movie, or almost any contemporary action film, there will be some sound effects that are seriously low in frequency... the mid air collision in Fight Club even caused me to turn down the pair of ported Sub1500s I was running, though the USGS picked up the impact on their seismic gear. :applaud:



Widget

Mr. Widget
04-09-2008, 11:25 PM
If one doesn't have the kind of funds required to run these modern subs one can go with something like the W15GTi mentioned by toddalin above. This driver has a higher Q and shouldn't require any EQ. It will dump a ton of bass tones into a room.True... if massive bass is the requirement that would be a solution, however for those interested in a more tuneful bass that is less "one note" sounding, I'd recommend the Sub1500/W1500H woofers. The 2245 is also quite good, though it's Xmax at sub musical frequencies can also become a factor. For music and lower powered HT applications the 2235H is also excellent.

At the other end of the spectrum from the W15GTi in the 15" JBL woofer catalog is running dual 1500ALs. A pair of these with the SMS-1 will give you about the best bass on the planet in my opinion. For some reason, you really need a pair per side to reach the pinnacle of performance, though one per side is pretty neat too... either way, you need to actively or passively EQ them if you want to plumb the depths of deep bass. While these woofers have a level of finesse that few other woofers offer, they are also remarkably robust and take immense power with grace.


Widget

timc
04-10-2008, 01:04 AM
To bad they cost a ton too. I would love to get a pair for sub use.



-Tim

4313B
04-10-2008, 05:23 AM
True... if massive bass is the requirement that would be a solutionWell, it keeps coming up over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over so it must be a requirement?

I'd recommend the Sub1500/W1500H woofers.We've already done that numerous times but they are tough to get.
The 2245 is also quite good, though it's Xmax at sub musical frequencies can also become a factor. For music and lower powered HT applications the 2235H is also excellent.Yep, I think we've posted that over a dozen times now.
1500ALs. A pair of these with the SMS-1 will give you about the best bass on the planet in my opinion. For some reason, you really need a pair per side to reach the pinnacle of performance, though one per side is pretty neat too... either way, you need to actively or passively EQ them if you want to plumb the depths of deep bass. While these woofers have a level of finesse that few other woofers offer, they are also remarkably robust and take immense power with grace.Yep, the 1500AL actually responds surprisingly well to sub duty. It is available from Japan. Some may prefer the 1501AL with the higher impedance voice coils to run in pairs. They were designed to run in pairs. Other possibilities would be the 1500FE and the ME150H.

Mr. Widget
04-10-2008, 08:08 AM
Well, it keeps coming up....

We've already done that numerous times...

Yep, I think we've posted that over a dozen times now...:D

That's the problem with having an older forum... so many of these topics will be gone over and over again.

BTW: What is the polarity of a pair of L100s and can I use a 16 ohm 2405 with an 8 ohm.... :rotfl: :barf:


Widget

hjames
04-10-2008, 08:14 AM
Maybe we need a sticky post for obtaining Massive Bassive?

:bouncy:

Mr. Widget
04-10-2008, 08:50 AM
Maybe we need a sticky post for obtaining Massive Bassive?I'd rather see us promote quality. :banghead:


Widget

Robh3606
04-10-2008, 10:15 AM
I realize that you don't run into this sort of thing because you primarily watch those fine Merchant Ivory films :D, but if you pop in a Terminator film,

Hello Widget

Arnold the actor is my Sci Fi hero. I have the limited edition THX version of T2. I listen to a decent amount of movies and am a real Sci Fi buff. Pearl Harbor is a kicker as well especially during the attack.

I ran an experiment on the 4344's last night. I used the old Telarc 1812 Oveture on CD as the test track. No high pass filter in place. Took out the digital peak reading SPL meter. Topped out at 112.8 db peak on the cannon shots. Those are wideband blasts with lots of energy so I don't know where the peak was but I suspect it's in the upper part of the woofers range or even into the 2122's range where the sharp crack is. Obviously lots of cone motion.

I ran another one using my surround system with the newer SACD of the 1812. Didn't use the SPL meter just keep going until the amp for the B380 clipped. Have a straped Crown 150A so I have a little over 300 watts available.

Damn that was fun!!

Best I can figure is the rooms are bigger than mine and they must be using more power. With the 4344's I looked like I was close but didn't push it any higher even though I still had some juice left in the amp driving the 2235's.

Both of these experiments were louder than I would normally listen at so I guess I am a movie whimp with respect to the volume control. If my listening habits are at a lower SPL level than others that could certainly account as to why I have not had any "ringers" here.

Rob:)

Chas
04-10-2008, 11:27 AM
:D

That's the problem with having an older forum... so many of these topics will be gone over and over again.

Widget

Yeah, but isn't it nice to reminisce?:slink:

Ian Mackenzie
04-10-2008, 02:12 PM
Hello Widget

Arnold the actor is my Sci Fi hero. I have the limited edition THX version of T2. I listen to a decent amount of movies and am a real Sci Fi buff. Pearl Harbor is a kicker as well especially during the attack.

I ran an experiment on the 4344's last night. I used the old Telarc 1812 Oveture on CD as the test track. No high pass filter in place. Took out the digital peak reading SPL meter. Topped out at 112.8 db peak on the cannon shots. Those are wideband blasts with lots of energy so I don't know where the peak was but I suspect it's in the upper part of the woofers range or even into the 2122's range where the sharp crack is. Obviously lots of cone motion.

I ran another one using my surround system with the newer SACD of the 1812. Didn't use the SPL meter just keep going until the amp for the B380 clipped. Have a straped Crown 150A so I have a little over 300 watts available.

Damn that was fun!!

Best I can figure is the rooms are bigger than mine and they must be using more power. With the 4344's I looked like I was close but didn't push it any higher even though I still had some juice left in the amp driving the 2235's.

Both of these experiments were louder than I would normally listen at so I guess I am a movie whimp with respect to the volume control. If my listening habits are at a lower SPL level than others that could certainly account as to why I have not had any "ringers" here.

Rob:)

Hi Rob,

I'll bet that was fun.

I have never slapped a 2235 in 25 years but I did end up using four 2235s in larger rooms running a flame Linear 700B with 700 watts a side.(no it never blew up) crossed over at 300 hertz.


But running the driver below say 80 hertz with that amount of power as dedicated sub is a different matter.

To illustrate max power output at low frequencies in terms of cone X max to the uninitiated I have attached a Bassbox sim of the 2235H ( green and cyan) in 5 cu ft 3 tuned to 32 and 28 hertz respectively. The reduction in power output at 32 hert is significant. With a high pass filter at 30 hertz the 32 hertz tuning would make quite a robust sub.

Tuned a bit lower to 28 hertz and we now see the trade off of power output versus extension with 7 db less output @ 32 hertz. Tuned even lower (Red) to 26 hertz its the best part of 3 db less power output at 32 hertz than the 28 hertz tuning.

None of this is rocket science but if you want high output below 30 hertz with low distortion if comes down to displacement and lots of watts.

The thing to know is when/what is the requirement for sub 30 hertz output and is that worth sacrificing for much higher output above 30 hertz.

I think the answer is no if you use your sub for normal music (and use a high pass filter). Best to get a real dedicated ELF sub for the home cinema application. Not many subs actually do that properly. The BagEnd audio http://ralaudio.com/bag-end-i12-pro-infrasub-15-extended-low-frequency-p-490.html and Wise Pro thunder http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2001/loudspeakers/page_12.shtml would be on my list

Mr. Widget
04-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Best I can figure is the rooms are bigger than mine and they must be using more power.Possibly SPL meter mic position in the room too... if your meter is in the listening position and you sit near the rear wall, you could be getting 10dB of gain from sitting in a major room mode.


Widget

4313B
04-10-2008, 05:04 PM
Possibly SPL meter mic position in the room too... if your meter is in the listening position and you sit near the rear wall, you could be getting 10dB of gain from sitting in a major room mode.Exactly. Same goes with the guys sitting in a null cranking up the sub output until something blows.

Robh3606
04-10-2008, 05:12 PM
Possibly SPL meter mic position in the room too... if your meter is in the listening position and you sit near the rear wall, you could be getting 10dB of gain from sitting in a major room mode.


True but why would you have your listening position in a room mode hot spot?? Sort of defeats all the rules about proper room set-up and speaker placement unless you like one note bass.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
04-10-2008, 10:21 PM
True but why would you have your listening position in a room mode hot spot?? Sort of defeats all the rules about proper room set-up and speaker placement unless you like one note bass.I wasn't suggesting that it was a good idea. I was suggesting that perhaps due to your smaller listening space you may be sitting near the rear wall where there would be a bass mode with enough gain that you may actually be driving your system less hard than you think.

While many people find themselves in just such a situation, I agree with you that the quality of bass under these conditions is really far from ideal.


Widget

Jakob
04-11-2008, 04:18 PM
I don't know if the ME150HS is still available from harman and therefore an option. But if it is I would really recomend it to anyone. I've read somewhere here that it is considered bass-shy by some, but compared to what and in what way? My pair blows away the LE14's in my 250ti's in every way except for maybe the sub 30Hz area.