2404H crossover help

[sekess]

Hi,
I'm relatively new here and had a question on a project I'm just getting started on. Here is a quick overview of what I'm doing:
Currently, I'm using a 2-way setup (Altec 416-8C with an Altec 802-8G-511) with a passive xo at 1200Hz.
My plan is to eventually go all active -- subwoofer to 416 (or a JBL driver - more punch) to 802 (or JBL driver(maybe 2445) and horn) to 2404H tweeter. So, eventually I would like to have a 4-way fully active system. I'm doing this in stages.
The step I'm at right now is setting up an active xo at 500Hz (maybe 800Hz) for the 416 to the 802 -- should be done in a few days.
Also, I have a pair of 2404H's coming. Eventually, when I get another amp, I will cross these guys actively as well. But in the mean time, I'd like to hook them up with a passive xo just to get the 2404H's in the system.

So, my question is for the following setup:

3-way system: 416-8C to 802-8G to 2404H

-- 416 to 802 - actively crossed at 500Hz or 800Hz -- no problem here.
-- 802-8G to 2404H - passively crossed at around 6kHz or so -- this is where I need some help.

I was thinking about going with a 2-way simple 12db crossover at 6kHz - lowpass to the 802-8G and highpass to the 2404H. I guess I would probably need an L-Pad on the 2404H to match the levels.

1. Does this sound like a good way to go?

2. Does anyone have a schematic with values for the crossover components? Or at least point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance,
Steve

[spkrman57]

1 ufd oil cap in series with the 2404 tweeter.

I use that for most horn tweeters if the midhorn is padded down to approx 97 - 99 db.

It brings it in mostly above 10khz.....

Ron

[sekess]

Hey Ron,

That's all I would need -- just a 1'st order highpass on the tweeter and a pad on the midhorn? Sounds nice and simple.

So, I wouldn't need a lowpass section to the midhorn?

Thanks,
Steve

[spkrman57]

Hey Ron,

That's all I would need -- just a 1'st order highpass on the tweeter and a pad on the midhorn? Sounds nice and simple.

So, I wouldn't need a lowpass section to the midhorn?

Thanks,
Steve

The midhorn will roll off before a filter is needed to keep it from overlapping much with the tweeter.

I also try different value caps for the tweeters with my systems: .47 ufd/1 ufd or even as high as 2 ufd to match up.

I use my ears to mesh things up, not sure how others do it as I have no high-tech test gear to measure it with.

I also recommend changing the crossover to the woofer-midhorn to 1khz instead of going lower as it reduces distortion and improves clarity.

Maybe some others will chime in with their comments also!!!!

Ron

[sekess]

Hey Ron,

With respect to the Bass to midhorn xo. I currently have it at 1200Hz passive. But, I am changing over to active. So, I can play around a bit with this. If I stick with the 416, I will probably stay at around 1000Hz. But, I'm going to try replacing the 416's with other drivers that don't cross as high. So, I may have to go with 500Hz even though I prefer not going that low with the midhorn.
When I first got the 416's and 802's, I tried 500Hz, 800Hz, and 1200Hz. I liked 1200Hz the best. My only real issues so far have been:

1. There is an L-Pad on the 802's and I have them dialed as low as I can go. And, I still feel that I need more from the 416's. I'm hoping that by going active, I will be able to control the levels better witout sacrificing such a large percentage of amplifier power on an L-Pad -- we'll see. If I still feel that the 416's are not punchy enough after going sctive, I will possibly have to look into trying some other drivers.

2. My other issue has been the high frequencies. They are actually very nice for a midhorn. But, I'd like some more sparkle. That's why I'm adding the tweeter. As I had said earlier, I was palnning on going active with the tweeter as well. But after I try your suggestions, if I like the way it sounds, I may just leave it as is. It's a nice and simple implementation. Plus, it would save me the expense of another amplifier.

Thanks,
Steve

[miker]

Steve,

I have a 3 way system that uses the 511 horn with a 902 driver, the 2404 tweeter, and I use a Speakerlab (Khorn clone) bass bin. I use an all 1st order network and cross the 511/902 midhorn to the 2404 tweeter at 8000 Hz. It's a 2.0 uF cap on the tweeter and a 0.16 mHy coil on the midhorn (mine is 8 ohm). I tried it at 6000 but, liked 8000 a little better. My 902 is down about 3 dB from the 2404 tweeter. It sounds good to me.

My problem is more the cross from the bass bin to the mid horn which I have set at 420 Hz. I likely have a big dip at the crossover point but It sounds pretty good to me. I may switch to a JBL 2226 in a BR cab for a better integration at the low end.

Mike

[Don Mascali]

I have used a 1.5 or 2.0 mfd cap in series with the 2404 working above a 2426H driver on both 2344A and 2346 (Everest 5500) horns. It sounded fine but there is certainly improvement with an active cross over and a Crown D 75 amp driving them. I use a 24db to infinity cross at 8k to 10k.

Good listening with whatever you decide.

[sekess]

Thanks Guys,

I guess I'll try a cap first since this will be the simplest -- just so I can hear what these guys sound like. And then I'll experiment from there.

-- Don, when you went active (24dB), did you go highpass to the 2404 and lowpass to the mid horn? Or, did you just highpass the 2404 and leave the midhorn withoput any lowpass?
By the way, I never had good luck with 24dB active filters. 2nd and 3rd order active filters always sounded better to me -- maybe I wasn't setting them up correctly -- not sure. But, I never was able to get one to my liking.

-- Mike, You use the 511/902 midhorn to the 2404 tweeter. That part should be real close to to the 511/802 to 2404 setup. You used the 0.16 mH coil on the 902. Just curious -- did you try the midhorn without the coil? If you did, was the sound better in your estimation with the coil in place?

I am a little concerned with just a 1'st order high pass on the 2404 in that it might not be attenuating enough lower frequency energy to prevent damage. But, it seems like a lot people are having success with this route.So, I'll give it a shot.

Thanks again for all the great feedback guys,
Steve

[Don Mascali]

I used 24db to keep the lows out of the tweeter. On the 2426H I tried a natural roll off and a 6db. I use the 6db now. The delay timing seems to make more of a difference to me.
I am 61 now so we're talking unknowns :D
I can't really hear all that well up there, but I sure do miss it when it's gone.

[sekess]

Hey Don,
I have to agree about the delay-timing. I think that's why I have always have had trouble with the 24dB xo's.
I'd like to eventually set up a digital computer based xo. With that you can get nice steep slopes without all the delay and phase issues. Plus, you can room correct. But, it's a little bit of a pricey experiment at the moment. IT does seem interesting though.

Steve

[Don Mascali]

I will put my flame suit on and admit that;

"I use a Berhinger DCX2496 digital Xover".

They have a pulse generator and an automatic time alignment function that works well.

(They stole the design and they are built by Chinese slave labor like most electronics today but I am not fabulosly wealthy. Even with cheap stuff I have a ton of money in this stuff).

[sekess]

Hey Don,

This can get expensive fast.

Currently I have a Marchand XM44 crossover. It's flexible in that you can use different order crossovers for the high and low pass. But, each time you want to experiment with new xo points or xo oreders, you have to build up 2 to 4 modules. Individually they are not that expensive. But, they add up over time as you play around. I am using it as a 3-way right now. But, it can be expanded out to a 4-way. All told, it is a nice unit for what it is. If you already know your xo points and slopes, you can get some nice results. However, the digital xo's seem better as far as experimenting goes -- much simpler.
I was tempted to get a DCX2496. It would probably serve me well for the time being. But, I'm pretty sure I will be at least trying out a 4-way system soon. And then, I would need two DCX's. If you get the right sound card (enough outputs) for your computer, you get a lot of flexibility depending on the software used. But as you mentioned already, these cards are not cheap -- pricey for me as well at this time.

Steve

[scott fitlin]

Marchand is nice, XM44 is good kit.

U ever think about 12DB Butterworth Bass, Midbass, Mids, 18DB Butterworth 7K for the 2404?

Just a thought.

[sekess]

Hey Scott,
The XM44 board is made for 4-way. But initially I only neede it for 3-way. So as of now, I only have it soldered up for 3-way. It's easy enough to buils up the 4th section. I would need to build or get a tweeter amp though. That is close to next on my list. I wasn't sure if I should put any more effort into the Marchand unit. Or, if I should start focusing on setting up a computer based digital crossover. It's so much more flexible. Plus, with the right software, you can really dial in the phasing of the drivers. And, it's a real piece of cake to try different xo points and ther slopes. I can't afford an RME Fireface sound card at this time. That seems to be the hot card right now. So, I'm trying to see if there is something with at least 8 outputs for a few hundred dollars that can get me started.
That's what I see in the future. As of now, I have a long throw 18" Avalanche as a sub up to 50Hz. Then I goto the Altec 416-8G up to 1200Hz. Then I goto the 802/511Horn. Plus, I paralled the 802 with the 2404 with a 1uF cap (based on previous suggestions). So, that's my 3-way active setup with the 2404 running 1'st order passive as of now. The 2404 did add a bit of sparkle. But, I can see that I either have to pad down the 802 a little. Either way, this would be temporary solution. I feel that this top section should also be active. I will absolutely try what you recommended on the 2404 when I get that tweeter amp Scott. I have always had good luck with 18dB filters.

As a side note, in the other thread that I started, I have pair of 2245's that I'm dying to hear (I never heard a pair before). I was thinking of replacing the 416's and the Avalanches with the 2245's. They supposedly don't do as well up high as the 416's. So, I would have to cross them to the 802's at 500Hz and see what happens. I have never been 100% happy with the 416's anyway. Their nice, but they don't seem to have real start and stop slam. I would describe them as more smooth. This may just be a function of the way I have them set up -- not sure. I know they improved dramatically since I went active crossover. But, I still want some more of a visceral hit.
Thanks for the suggestion Scott,
Steve