Anomalous L80T?

[brutal]

I picked up a pair of nearly flawless L80T today for $150.

Noticing what seemed like an 035TiA (plastic face) on both, I was a bit perplexed and thought maybe the OE had replaced the 035TI drivers that should have been there per JBL's lit. After getting them home and digging into all the drivers, it seems JBL might have put together some late model L80T during the period they should have been shipping L80T3's. :dont-know

All the drivers except one 104H-2 have date stamps of Month 1989. I verified the x-over is the L80T design. Serials are 18090 and 18524

I've read about extending the port tube 2" to improve the LF response, wondering if picking up a set of L80T3 x-over is worth the trouble. These and a set of L20T I'm sprucing up may replace the SVA1600 and HLS610 sets doing HT duty in my BR. I haven't actually fired the L80T's up yet, so it will be interesting to see how they sound after reading some of the comments on them here.

Thoughts? Comments?

[SEAWOLF97]

I bought a nice pair about 2 mos. ago for $100. They are virtually the same driver load as 4410's , but I find them overly bright and could not run them alone (no pot controls) , just filling in as SR rears for the Walsh's.
The componets are worth more than the whole speakers....:blink:

[brutal]

I normally EQ everything so if they go into the BR, I might just have to drop some more gear in there...:D

Else, I do have a few LPADs laying around and could attenuate that little bugger like I've seen mention of.

[hjames]

I've got 4 L60Ts right now, all have the 035Tia tweeters, instead of the 035TI tweeters I had expected. So I had planned to improve the L20Ts but when I opened one of the L20T, I found it too had the improved tweeter ..
I didn't change any of them - maybe thats why Seawolf found them shrill - if they had the old crossover design but a hotter tweeter?


I picked up a pair of nearly flawless L80T today for $150.

Noticing what seemed like an 035TiA (plastic face) on both, I was a bit perplexed and thought maybe the OE had replaced the 035TI drivers that should have been there per JBL's lit. After getting them home and digging into all the drivers, it seems JBL might have put together some late model L80T during the period they should have been shipping L80T3's. :dont-know

All the drivers except one 104H-2 have date stamps of Month 1989. I verified the x-over is the L80T design. Serials are 18090 and 18524

I've read about extending the port tube 2" to improve the LF response, wondering if picking up a set of L80T3 x-over is worth the trouble. These and a set of L20T I'm sprucing up may replace the SVA1600 and HLS610 sets doing HT duty in my BR. I haven't actually fired the L80T's up yet, so it will be interesting to see how they sound after reading some of the comments on them here.

Thoughts? Comments?

[BMWCCA]

The tweets in my L20T's, while still plastic faced, are stamped 035TI, no "A". I pulled them just to check (and for another coat of Feed 'n Wax). Now the 4412A has a metal face on it's nearly identical 052TI's which would appear to be a much more expensive way to build them. For the sake of discovery, the serial number on one of my 035Ti-equipped (non-A) L20T is J001-10839 if anyone can turn that into a date-of-manufacture. Perhaps the tweeter had a date on it, but if it did I didn't record it. Interesting.

[SEAWOLF97]

OK , you made me look ...

mine are 035TI ....no "A"

[hjames]

biZARRE!!@

[brutal]

I've got 4 L60Ts right now, all have the 035Tia tweeters, instead of the 035TI tweeters I had expected. So I had planned to improve the L20Ts but when I opened one of the L20T, I found it too had the improved tweeter ..
I didn't change any of them - maybe thats why Seawolf found them shrill - if they had the old crossover design but a hotter tweeter?

I thought they spec'd out the same freq response-wise, but the metal framed version had a heavier magnet and tended to be smoother.

[BMWCCA]

OK , you made me look ...

mine are 035TI ....no "A"Plastic, or metal?

[brutal]

The tweets in my L20T's, while still plastic faced, are stamped 035TI, no "A". I pulled them just to check (and for another coat of Feed 'n Wax). Now the 4412A has a metal face on it's nearly identical 052TI's which would appear to be a much more expensive way to build them. For the sake of discovery, the serial number on one of my 035Ti-equipped (non-A) L20T is J001-10839 if anyone can turn that into a date-of-manufacture. Perhaps the tweeter had a date on it, but if it did I didn't record it. Interesting.

...runs to check already pulled L20T drivers...

Hot damn, they're plastic faced 035TI. Date coded 11 4 85 and 1 23 86

Too bad someone painted them with glossy spray paint. WTF?:banghead:

So was it only the 044Ti, 046Ti and 052Ti that were all metal Ti drivers?

I just checked the L80T vs L80T3 spec sheets and the freq resp is listed 35-32K and 40-27K respectively. How does that make the T3 network better? And what then is the real freq resp of the L80T if it has the 035Tia driver as opposed to the 035Ti driver listed in the specs? I realize it probably tones down the harshness a bit, but why the loss at the bottom end? :confused:

I've tried to find detailed specs here to compare all these drivers but I must be looking in the wrong place. There certainly still is a lot of conflicting info on our beloved JBL's. There's even a 1984 GT tech sheet listing the 250Ti as having an 033Ti driver... I thought that only went into the TBQ later in life? :blink:

[duaneage]

Far more knowledgeable people than me have stated here the 035Ti and the 035Tia are identical in performance, but different in lead position.

THe Txx3 networks changed the midrange response to be more "forward", whatever that translates to. You could sub out the parts on one network with the difference and decide for yourself which you prefer.

[BMWCCA]

So was it only the 044Ti, 046Ti and 052Ti that were all metal Ti drivers?

I just checked the L80T vs L80T3 spec sheets and the freq resp is listed 35-32K and 40-27K respectively. How does that make the T3 network better? And what then is the real freq resp of the L80T if it has the 035Tia driver as opposed to the 035Ti driver listed in the specs? I realize it probably tones down the harshness a bit, but why the loss at the bottom end? :confused:Everything with the 035Ti is listed to 32k, the 035TiA to 27k, and the 052Ti to 30k. In my stuff, L20t shows 45-32k, L5 35-27k, and 4412A 30-30k. So even the tiny woofers on the L5 get lower than an L80t3 with the same tweets——according to the specs. That's odd. And that the tinier L20t gets that close, is remarkable. Oddly enough, the L20T3 also drops bottom end, being rated at 55-27k. Seems like somebody screwed up on the T3s, or did they change how they measured response? Seems like only the L1, L3, L5, and L7 kept the bottom end while using the 035tiA.

[duaneage]

I'd guess it was probably a difference in how they are measured. The same woofer in similar box with the same tuning would perform at the bottom end the same. The crossover would have little to do with LF cuttoff. The high end is also a testing matter. Considering human hearing falls off about 20K (15K for us old fogeys) I would not see a dimes worth of difference (although my dog might) and would focus on the differences in midrange performance, driver to driver phase transistions, and lobing from the HF and MR.

Crossovers can affect the dispersion a lot by changing the amount of overlap the drivers have, and at what frequency.

[johnaec]

The 052Ti is not metal - it's plastic. And both the 035Ti and 035TiA are plastic, and have the same size magnets. Some 035Ti's and 035TiA's even have the leads in the same place, (changeover period?): http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59135&postcount=5

John

[brutal]

The 052Ti is not metal - it's plastic. And both the 035Ti and 035TiA are plastic, and have the same size magnets. Some 035Ti's and 035TiA's even have the leads in the same place, (changeover period?): http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59135&postcount=5

John

Good info.

I also saw this http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3197&postcount=12 measuring chart that would seem to indicate by the measured Q's why the 035TiA is considered "hot," although a read through of the full thread here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=38844#poststop where Widget actually measured during a "tweeterfest" would seem to indicate that they measure nearly identical - although he didn't show the harmonics for the TiA.

I think I'll definitely be looking at running an LPAD between the XO and the 035TiA to tame them down a bit if needed - once I have a listen for myself.

Cheers!

[BMWCCA]

The 052Ti is not metal - it's plastic. And both the 035Ti and 035TiA are plastic, and have the same size magnets.
Yes, the 052Ti is plastic. I had to take one out to be sure, but it is a lot thicker plastic than the 035Ti and highly unlikely anyone could split the screw hole by over-tightening like the 035 series. Magnet seems to be the same size as the 035s. :)

[brutal]

I finally got a chance to spend a few minutes listening to the L80T.

I tried to go into it with an open mind and no preconceptions, but I have to agree with the general consensus that they're a tad bright and have a loose, boomy, muddy bottom end. I also felt they had a big hole in the middle. I was able to EQ out some of the brightness, but will certainly have to attack that port tube extension mod to see of it truly helps. Dropping the bass with EQ just made the bottom end fall off too much.

I was only able to A/B them against a pair of L166 on one of my lesser amps, a Yamaha M-70 and didn't have a chance to move them around much. Although placed the same distance apart, the soundstage on the L166 seemed bigger, and the hole in the middle of the L80T was distracting. Cymbals and voice sound more lifelike on the L166 to me. The L80T didn't seem as open or airy.

As soon as I get the M-80 off the bench and can attach 3 pairs, I'll have to run them in against the 4312BMkII's which although they're a "monitor," have a more similar driver compliment with their 035TiA and 104H-2, the only difference being the 12", XO and cabinet (not much really, LOL.) The 4312BMkII's seem awfully bright to me as well and are dialed down quite a bit - 5 on both the presence and brilliance. On some material, I drop the Brilliance down even further.

I have a feeling that even if they don't have the HT punch they SVA1600's do (not one of my favorite's by far) the L80T will still replace them in the BR HT setup. They'll certainly look nicer and we don't run the BR system up loud anyway or do any critical listening in there, mostly just background music. I'll compliment them in the rear with the L20T instead of the HLS610's. The SVA and HLS will likely go off to CL as I haven't been that impressed with either of them.

[SEAWOLF97]

I finally got a chance to spend a few minutes listening to the L80T.
Although placed the same distance apart, the soundstage on the L166 seemed bigger, and the hole in the middle of the L80T was distracting. Cymbals and voice sound more lifelike on the L166 to me. The L80T didn't seem as open or airy.



I really wanted to like my L80T's...the styling fit better with my LR, but in the end I am underwhelmed.....think the L166A's will be back in their place.. :o:

[BMWCCA]

I just got one of the L80Ts I bought last week up and running. I stripped the box down, re-surrounded the 127H-1; straightened the screen on the 035Ti (non-A), wire-brushed and Plasticoated the corroded diaphragm screws, and replaced the screen o-ring; and palm-sanded and oiled the cabinet. It's playing now in the overcrowded upstairs listening room as one channel of the L7 system while I finish up the other 127H-1 surround repair. It's still quite bright even with the 035Ti. Not something you'd want to play without the grilles on. I put the grille on in a hurry! I don't notice anything flabby about the bass but this room offers it no boundary reinforcement and is jammed so full any flabbiness might just get sucked away. All together not that bad and quite impressive for the seventy-seven bucks I have in them including Rick Cobb's surrounds, and I still have over a half-can of Watco left since I started with the remnants of an old one. The stapled-on plastic base is very cheesy! And there's no way these are only 1dB less sensitive than the L7. No way!! Sounds more like 5dB.

Here's a good before-and-after since I did them one at a time. You can even compare Rick's surround profile with the intact original. Believe it or not, that was Watco's "natural" danish oil, not the Cherry! I think these may be going to my brother-in-law for a while.

Be good! ;)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/DSC_1402.jpg

[brutal]

Good work.

I finally got my 4412's up and running, I'll have to get some pics up soon.

I picked up another pair of 4408's for $89, he he, and the surrounds are 1/2 done. Waiting on me to get my butt back down and fire up that 30Hz tone.

The cabs are pretty ratty, but they'll do nicely as the backup pair for the really nice 4408's. :D

[BMWCCA]

I picked up another pair of 4408's for $89, he he, and the surrounds are 1/2 done. Waiting on me to get my butt back down and fire up that 30Hz tone.

The cabs are pretty ratty, but they'll do nicely as the backup pair for the really nice 4408's. :DYeah, these looked pretty ratty, too, but they cost less than the tweeters are worth so I bought them while picking up a motorcycles out of town. Then I figured WTF, I should see what I could do for them, see if they could be saved, and try them out for myself. I know many here are split on these (as this thread showed in the beginning) but all the components are right. I might try Gordon W's trick of lengthening the port tube and adding some more stuffing. I sure hope my brother-in-law appreciates the effort. :) It was good practice for the six 12-inchers I have waiting for new surrounds, regardless.

What exactly does an 8" woofer do with a 30Hz tone! ;) :shock:

[SEAWOLF97]

I just got one of the L80Ts I bought last week up and running. It's still quite bright even with the 035Ti. Not something you'd want to play without the grilles on. I put the grille on in a hurry! I don't notice anything flabby about the bass but this room offers it no boundary reinforcement and is jammed so full any flabbiness might just get sucked away.

My L80t's are gone & forgotten ..they were up and playing for only a couple of days..

plusses:
I liked the style

minuses:
way too bright - NO adjustment pots
awkward to move - top heavy
fragile grills
fragile spaghetti faux veneer

did not find the bass flabby...just non remarkable...just nothing special about this model ..same drivers but diff network are in 4410's (plus pots) which sounds way better ....cheap way to get replacement drivers ...was headed that way to part them , but ended up selling them whole.

[BMWCCA]

Yeah, I remember the discussion. I'm finishing up the second one right now. I'm in that difficult phase of watching oil be absorbed by the spaghetti veneer. ;)

I figured they'd make good part donors but just thought I'd see what I could do to put one more pair of vintage JBLs back into use. I've made GordonW's mods by adding 1-1/2" of duct (I knew I was saving those mailing tubes from BMW-NA all this time for something!), and I added another blanket of insulation in the top above the tweeter and mid-range. They'll be back together soon and I'll see if that makes a substantial difference. I see that Gordon put his up for sale shortly after making those suggestions for modding them. :D

It seems the super-brightness is a bit of a beaming issue. There's way too much if you're standing above them, for some reason, less with the grilles in place and listening from tweeter height. Amazingly the L7 right next to it is nowhere near as bright even when I stand at closer to ear-level to it and the L80t is several feet lower. Odd, but that's my observation. Easy enough to tame the 035Ti. I think I have nearly as many Soundcraftsmen EQs as I have JBLs.

As I said, for my total seventy-something-dollar investment, they sound at least as good as my $75 perfect L20Ts! I'm sure a family member will appreciate them. I'm not unimpressed, they're just playing in the same room against a pair of L7s and we know even an L300 has a hard time with that challenge! :thmbsup:

[brutal]

...What exactly does an 8" woofer do with a 30Hz tone! ;) :shock:

It cycles at 30Hz... ;)

Well, that's what I use to center the VC while I'm gluing the surrounds to the basket. You don't? LOL

[BMWCCA]

It cycles at 30Hz... ;)

Well, that's what I use to center the VC while I'm gluing the surrounds to the basket. You don't? LOLSort of an "if a tree falls in the woods" deal with an 8"? Just kidding. I was actually surprised how much air the 10" pushed given a quarter-inch or so of movement from the CD. Sort of sucked me into a black hole when I put my head up to it.




LX22, L20T, L80T, 4412A, L1, L5, L7, L112, L150A, C37 030, 4345.