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Japer
02-29-2008, 02:29 AM
Hi there

Got a pair of JBL 4343´s and would like to experiment a little with biamping. I found these four devices.

DBX driverack pa http://www.dbxpro.com/PA/PA.htm
DBX 234xl http://www.dbxpro.com/223XL/223XL.php
BBE http://www.bbesound.com/products/crossovers/maxx2/index.asp
BBE http://www.bbesound.com/products/LMS/DS24/index.asp

Anyone got experience with one of those ??
If not would one of these four crossovers be ok and which one would you prefer ?

example: The DBX driverack gives me delay options, Eq options, different slopes options. Options that not are available in the more hardware based models like the DBX 234 and the bbe max x2. The DBX 234 is with 24 db slope and the BBE max x2 is with 12db.

What do you think ???

richluvsound
02-29-2008, 02:55 AM
Hi,


What is the rest of your system ?
What amps are you using ?

Rich

Japer
02-29-2008, 02:59 AM
Im currently using a mcintosh ma6900. But It´s sold. The buyer just havent picked it up yet. Want a cheaper system. Thinking of buiyng a nad 218 for the lf section. I dont no for pre and power regarding the mf, hf, and uhf section yet. But the Nad 218 and maybe one of the crossovers listed and then i dont know for the rest yet.

richluvsound
02-29-2008, 03:08 AM
Hi Japer,


put the Nad on the top and find a Crown, QSC or any good quality pro amp for the low end. Min 200 watts per channel . DBX is better than the berhinger.

Guido , builds a nice little active crossover. Remember pro gear is noisy in comparison to hifi .

Rich

Japer
02-29-2008, 03:21 AM
Ok will consider your amplifier suggestions. Any advice on which crown please in the lower price range if there is any :)

The BBE isnt behringer but BBE.

The two models with no digital user-interface is the BBE xo-x2 and DBX 234XL. The BBE model has 12db slope like the passive crossover in the 4343 and the DBX has 24db slope. Then again the pa driverrack offers selectable slopes 12 18 24. Just have a suspection that the pa driverrack does a lot and have a lot of options but also not as good. But maybe it does and then of course that would be the logical choice. Again, maybe all the 4 crossovers that i found are no good and just to cheap.

richluvsound
02-29-2008, 04:25 AM
Japer,

its kind a hard not knowing your price range , but German ebay has some good stuff. My opinion , for what its worth,I'd go with the Dbx For the price you cant go wrong.
The Yanks will be awake soon.There is a hell of a lot of experience on this subject over the pond..... I love em. Even the cranky ones :applaud:
This is a nice little amp at a good price. The only problem is the fan, but unless you spend big money you wont get over that issue.
Rich

Skywave-Rider
02-29-2008, 06:22 AM
Japer,
I have not used those crossovers, but looking at the BBE DS24, specs show only a 48KHz sample frequency. Probably not good if you want to get close to analog, and remember you'll suffer A to D and D to A conversions if you have analog sources.

The Behringer crossovers have more features. Their digital model has a 96KHz sampling rate.

There are a lot of sound reinforcement pros on this board, they will have some good opinions to follow.

Best wishes.

Japer
02-29-2008, 06:56 AM
Thanks for all the answers so far. :) Very nice with a JBL forum and people that actually answers when a question is asked.

I know there´s a very cheap behringer, probably the one you´re talking about that would do some of the same things as the dbx. I could tjeck that out too of course. Its just that behringer have always been like a cheap brand for me but then again their stuff isnt so bad at all especially when price is considered. Regarding (dont know if i can say regarding. But regarding the dbx drive pa its price here in denmark is usually 6000 kr. and is offered for 3600 kr. right now so its on sale and i think its cheap. You will have to divide danish kroner wit 5-6 to get the dollar price in denmark. So the dollar price would be 1090 for the dbx and 654 dollars for the dbx on sale as it is right now. And I see that you recommend an yamaha power amp. Price is good I must say. What about the crown that you talked about for the bass. money to spend right know is around 3000 danish kroner for the amp. Im not going the highend way more ordinary good well known quality watt to a proper price just to try this biamping and the options this give. By options I mean setting eq crossover frequencey slope and maybe the most importnant thing the levels for bass contra mf, hf and uhf. And of course the power and the electronic cross with no filters in the way in bass to mf section.

richluvsound
02-29-2008, 07:03 AM
Japer ,

3000 what ? Give me Euro, $ or £ . There is a mint K2 for sale here in the UK.
£ 550 . It has never been used professionally only for home hifi. No fan either.
If I had the money it would be here in my rack !

IMO, get the best Xover you can afford. There are also some very good deals on the QSC amps here at the moment. Check UK ebay ! If you see anything let me know. I have had so much help from people here. It would be nice to be able to give something back.

No Affiliation to me .

Rich

Japer
02-29-2008, 07:14 AM
3000 is only approx. 400 euro and I think 500´550 Dollars

Baron030
02-29-2008, 08:46 AM
Hi Japer

Delay options, EQ options, different slopes rate options are in a way, over kill for your project.

If you go to this site’s library, you will see that JBL recommends the JBL 5234 electronic crossover network equipped with a 52-5140 crossover cards for the 4343.

And someone should chime in here with a response chart on the 52-5140 crossover cards. But, it does appear that a 12 db/octave slope rate most closely matches the 52-5140 crossover cards.

Since, most electronic crossovers on the market today have 24 db/octave slopes, finding a new 12 db/octave slope unit maybe be difficult.

Please take a look at the Ashley XR1001 crossover.
While, the XR1001 does have a 24db/octave slope rate, which is higher then the recommended slope rate of 12db/octave.
It does have a "response" control that allows you to adjust the depth of the crossover point.
And this should allow you to get an overall response that very closely matches that of the JBL 52-5140 crossover cards.
Also, I do know from experience that Ashley crossovers have a very low noise floor.
So, they will run very quietly in a home stereo environment. And that’s my $0.02 on the subject.

Baron030 :)

matsj
02-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Take a look at Djz.dk :http://www.djz.dk/interaktivt/marked/saelges/Lyd%20%3E%20Delfiltre%2C%20effekter%2C%20eq./Delfiltre%20%28aktiv%2C%20passive%29/

mats

Japer
03-01-2008, 12:18 AM
Take a look at Djz.dk :http://www.djz.dk/interaktivt/marked/saelges/Lyd%20%3E%20Delfiltre%2C%20effekter%2C%20eq./Delfiltre%20%28aktiv%2C%20passive%29/

mats

Great link :). lots of the crossovers we´re talking aboy are right there.

But still have been looking at BEE now its 12db slope and no bullsshit crossover and almost as cheap as the used equiment.

Japer
03-01-2008, 12:32 AM
Hi Japer

Delay options, EQ options, different slopes rate options are in a way, over kill for your project.

If you go to this site’s library, you will see that JBL recommends the JBL 5234 electronic crossover network equipped with a 52-5140 crossover cards for the 4343.

And someone should chime in here with a response chart on the 52-5140 crossover cards. But, it does appear that a 12 db/octave slope rate most closely matches the 52-5140 crossover cards.

Since, most electronic crossovers on the market today have 24 db/octave slopes, finding a new 12 db/octave slope unit maybe be difficult.

Please take a look at the Ashley XR1001 crossover.
While, the XR1001 does have a 24db/octave slope rate, which is higher then the recommended slope rate of 12db/octave.
It does have a "response" control that allows you to adjust the depth of the crossover point.
And this should allow you to get an overall response that very closely matches that of the JBL 52-5140 crossover cards.
Also, I do know from experience that Ashley crossovers have a very low noise floor.
So, they will run very quietly in a home stereo environment. And that’s my $0.02 on the subject.

Baron030 :)

Dont know what slope depth is ?
If you look at The BEE at this link http://www.bbesound.com/products/crossovers/maxx2/index.asp
isnt it right that its a 12db slope filter that you talked about maybe would be the nearest thing to the JBL crossover. But again there´s a used ashley in the other link and cheap too. Still need some experiences from users who actually tried the BBE, DBX or whatever brand it could be
And maybe could tell if its no go at all and it would never be good at all or the opposite with these crossovers. As I understand you, you would go for the more hardwarebased crossovers and not example the dbx driverack pa. Im skeptic about the dbx pa too because I get so much for so little money I mean compressors limiter and all kinds of stuff i dont need and the I wonder how good quality can a man get for 700 dollars when it does all that. Just the thing I like with the dbx is that there are lots of possibilities tweaking your system with it. Who knows maybe a 24 db filter sounds best on these JBL.....

richluvsound
03-01-2008, 01:24 AM
Japer,

Dbx driverack will give you whistles and bells and a 24db slope. I'm pretty sure this has been covered many many times. There are people here that design for JBL and many gifted people that do nothing else but, tweak and redesign crossovers.
The general consensus is " Ashley 1001" best value and sound for the money; proven by some of the very best ears this site has to offer. There is an opinion here that unless you spend a lot money DIGITAL is'nt worth it ,but its your buck and you have to do what you think is best. When all is said and done "one cannot re-invent the wheel" Start with quality and build
the system up ! Heck , look at Charge coupling the xover. It will do more for the 4343 than a drive rack.

Rich

georgebrooke
03-01-2008, 06:58 AM
Hi
I am in the middle of the same thing right now.
I have followed the advice of some of the experts on this forum and purchased a Crown K2 amplifier. It has plenty of power, but importantly for home use, does not use a fan, so should be dead quiet. I have actually yet to hear it as it was an eBay purchase and I should collect it at end of month. It cost £420, which seems to be the going rate for working models.

Re the actual active crossover, I am getting one of the members to build me one. I am hoping to use it both for the 4343s and for NS1000Ms, so that the electronics stay the same, regardless of the speaker system in use.
There is plenty (too much actually) on the forum about crossovers. All agree that the bi-amp switch should be dropped. I plan to rebuild what is needed for bi-amping and remove the switch completely. What I have not found is background information on converting the 4-way passive crossover to a 3-way, for both the 4343 and the 3-way to a 2-way for NS1000M. My concern is that part of the crossover circuit may still be in operation and I am hesitant about cutting out parts without guidance...so back to the books ;)

richluvsound
03-01-2008, 07:28 AM
Hi George,

I thought you were bi-amping ? woofs on the K2 and everything else on the pass labs ?

Rich

Japer
03-01-2008, 10:23 AM
Japer,

Dbx driverack will give you whistles and bells and a 24db slope. I'm pretty sure this has been covered many many times. There are people here that design for JBL and many gifted people that do nothing else but, tweak and redesign crossovers.
The general consensus is " Ashley 1001" best value and sound for the money; proven by some of the very best ears this site has to offer. There is an opinion here that unless you spend a lot money DIGITAL is'nt worth it ,but its your buck and you have to do what you think is best. When all is said and done "one cannot re-invent the wheel" Start with quality and build
the system up ! Heck , look at Charge coupling the xover. It will do more for the 4343 than a drive rack.

Rich


Will look for the ashley then. And if to hard to find here in denmark then go for the BBE that have 12db slope filter and a nad power amp and maybe a crown for the LF. Something like that I think.

Im not that techinal so could anyone explain what this means about the ashley

"" It does have a "response" control that allows you to adjust the depth of the crossover point.
And this should allow you to get an overall response that very closely matches that of the JBL 52-5140 crossover cards"""

I also dont know what charge coupling is :)

Japer
03-02-2008, 09:29 AM
Ok, doesent matter with the slope depth charge copling and so on. It will just be a lot of technical stuff. I now for sure am waiting for a K2 to show up and the ashley crossover. So far so good. Dont know for sure for rest of the system right now. we´ll see.....

richluvsound
03-02-2008, 09:45 AM
Japer,

they look stunning :applaud: They deserve the best. A really inexpensive upgrade would be to get them off the floor about 150mm . You'll notice an improvement in the low F immediately.

Rich

Japer
03-02-2008, 11:46 AM
Japer,

they look stunning :applaud: They deserve the best. A really inexpensive upgrade would be to get them off the floor about 150mm . You'll notice an improvement in the low F immediately.

Rich

Thanks :)

Good advice, have been thinking in doing that now and then. Another upgrade would be a better/bigger room. But I dont think thats going too happen for a while. The finish is teak so not the original finish. Its been veneered with 10mm teak all the way around so this Jbl 4343 is a little wider than the original. Have been thinking of getting 3mm walnut veneer put on them. Need the blue front-grilles too. Dont know if its possible to get that anywhere. I´ve tjecked the internal wirings in realtion to a thread in here and think I got it right now. So my 4343 is getting better and better and is getting closer and closer to the original. Im going to buy new potmeters for it too sometime soon. Have found the Ashley crossover for sale for something like 165 Dollars. I just have to be a member at the site to be allowed to contact the seller. I have of course signed in but I havent been aproved yet so I cant buy the Crossover yet Damn :(

matsj
03-02-2008, 12:10 PM
Du har pm.

mats

Japer
03-02-2008, 12:24 PM
Du har pm.

mats

Thank you very much Mats :applaud:

matsj
03-02-2008, 12:35 PM
You are welcome.

mats

richluvsound
03-02-2008, 01:20 PM
Japer,

so it sounds like Mats has scored your crossover for you:applaud:
You could try sending a PM to Mr Zilch. He may know of some JBL blue cloth;)

The extra 10mm on the box has improved it . You will have to get a pro to veneer over Teak. It heals itself when the grain is worked and emits a natural oil that makes it very hard for glue to stick.

Rich

macaroonie
03-03-2008, 08:01 AM
If it is any help I have access to Crown products in the UK at ' trade ' prices.

Japer
03-05-2008, 01:30 PM
Japer,

so it sounds like Mats has scored your crossover for you:applaud:
You could try sending a PM to Mr Zilch. He may know of some JBL blue cloth;)

The extra 10mm on the box has improved it . You will have to get a pro to veneer over Teak. It heals itself when the grain is worked and emits a natural oil that makes it very hard for glue to stick.

Rich

Yes got in contact with the seller of the ashley xr1001 today, bought it and he will send it to me. Got the adress from Mats yes. Thanks for the link to Mr Zilch. Will contact him and see what happens :)

Japer
03-05-2008, 01:33 PM
If it is any help I have access to Crown products in the UK at ' trade ' prices.


Im not sure that my mcintosh is sold, so unfortunately I will have to wait a while before I can buy anything. But will contact you if im interested thank you.

Japer
03-06-2008, 05:24 PM
Got these ones and some money of course in trade with my mcintosh.

Will take a better picture later.

boputnam
03-06-2008, 07:46 PM
No to digital. :no: It is not required nor advised for this application.

You don't need time-alignment - these cabinest sound fine without it.

Stay analogue whenever you can. There are plenty of good economical options, analogue, to fit your needs with great results.



Oh, and Japer - better refurbish those Lansalloy surrounds soon as you can.

Japer
03-07-2008, 03:26 PM
Recieved my ashely crossover today. Its a little worn but its okay as long as its working which i dont now yet. Need cables and amps :)

Japer
03-07-2008, 03:56 PM
No to digital. :no: It is not required nor advised for this application.

You don't need time-alignment - these cabinest sound fine without it.

Stay analogue whenever you can. There are plenty of good economical options, analogue, to fit your needs with great results.



Oh, and Japer - better refurbish those Lansalloy surrounds soon as you can.

Ok nice to hear. Now a lot of you have adviced me for going analouge. Thats what I was looking for when I started this thread. So great that you almost all agree that it have to go analogue when using the money i am. And especially after I just bought the Ashley. Will take a look at the lansaloy too. Will just have to decide whether to get new le14 in them and keep the old originals or just save the money and refoam the originals.