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Mr. Widget
02-23-2008, 11:44 PM
Any ideas on how to best deal with surround ooze? I have a pair of Altec 414Zs that are in absolutely excellent condition except that they sat in an attic for the last decade or two and the coating on the surround ran. It glued the paper gasket to the cabinet and tore as I removed the woofer. The gasket is replaceable, but does anyone have a good fix for the excess goo? I know this is a common problem... but not one I've had before.


Widget

spkrman57
02-24-2008, 12:52 PM
Try and heat it up slowly and you can use a Q-tip to remove excess goop(modified rubber cement is what I heard is used).

Maybe others have different ideas, that is what I used in the past to bring the surrounds back to life and look shiny again.

Don't let the heat get too hot as it might catch fire!!!

Ron

John
02-24-2008, 10:58 PM
M.E.K. is what the reconer at G.P.A. uses. and that is what I use since he shared the info with me.:D

Mr. Widget
02-25-2008, 12:36 AM
Thanks for the tip. I'll get some M.E.K.


Widget

Steve Schell
02-25-2008, 12:30 PM
Widget, as you know this happens a lot with the doped Altec surrounds. The stuff is thermoplastic, and my theory has been that it migrates mostly when it gets warm.

As a vintage audio reseller taught me, warming it up and scooping out the excess is the thing to do. I use a hair dryer to warm it up and a small rounded dowel to scoop the material. Looks disturbed at first, but the material reflows and removes the evidence of your repair.

Leaving it alone is not a good option, as the goop immobilizes the surround and the cone can tear at that point. I had four 414Zs that had done this.

Mr. Widget
02-25-2008, 06:32 PM
Well... that's two votes for heat. I was nervous about trying heat, why go organic when you can use carcinogens instead. :D I guess I'll borrow Mrs. Gadget's hairdryer when she isn't looking. :bouncy:


Widget

pelly3s
02-25-2008, 07:05 PM
With the M.E.K. if you use too much it will activate the glue holding the surround down and lift it. I have used the heat method many times and it works good

louped garouv
02-26-2008, 08:00 AM
i've used heat as well to remove excess, much in the same way Steve described -- except instead of a dowel, i used the rounded edge of a crab fork

http://www.kitchengadgets.ca/catalog/im001670.JPG

grumpy
02-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Widget, let us know how the heat thing (vs. MEK) goes. I've got several
of these I'm going to need to "correct" a bit more than the one in your
photo :blink: (appears someone got a bit enthusiastic in "goo" application).

... returning some nice, but empty, Avalon/Carmel cabs to service.

-grumpy

John
02-27-2008, 09:31 PM
Well... that's two votes for heat. I was nervous about trying heat, why go organic when you can use carcinogens instead. :D I guess I'll borrow Mrs. Gadget's hairdryer when she isn't looking. :bouncy:


Widget

M.E.K. is used to thin the goop for application to surround. I have removed excess on a few 15",s with a tooth pick and smoothed it over with a soldering flux brush dipped in M.E.K.:)

By the way the flux brush application is the way G.P.A. applies the goop to the surround's after the goop is thinned with M.E.K ;)

I would go very easy with the heat!!! Just enought to warm the goop but not enought to cause any harm to the accordian surround.:eek:

Zilch
03-01-2008, 01:31 AM
Do you (or anyone else) have T/S parameters for those drivers, Mr. Widget?

Have you measured them, perhaps?

Or, if not, would you do that, please?

These are very popular woofers, yet nobody seems to know very much about them.... :dont-know

Mr. Widget
03-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Do you have T/S parameters for those drivers, Mr. Widget?No.


Have you measured them, perhaps?No.



Or, if not, would you do that, please?Maybe. If I decide to keep them I will, and I'd be happy to share the data. They were given to me by a friend and I haven't decided what to do with them. I still haven't cleaned up their surrounds, in fact other than applying signal to them to see if they make noise, I haven't touched them.


Widget

grumpy
03-01-2008, 02:44 PM
FWIW, I ran two over-gooped (from what I've seen) 414z's through WT-2
and it seems I should indeed un-goop them and remeasure (significant
differences are shown):

Re: 11.5 ohms
Fs: 40, 49.2, 45 Hz
Qes: .29, .36, ...
Qms: 3.51, 2.46, 1.0
Qts: .267, .316, .3
Le: 2.3 mH
Vas: 210, 130, 150 l (delta mass method)
BL: 20, 20, 19.5
Mms: 41g

I've added info for a third unit.

-grumpy

Zilch
03-01-2008, 03:25 PM
Thanks, Widget and Grumpy.

That certainly illustrates the problem working with or designing around these vintage drivers, no matter how "good" they are (or were.)

If there were some specs available, we could at least assess the condition of individual units against those.

The situation is much the same with 416A/Z.

I suppose one option is to have them rebuilt "as new" and work from there.... :dont-know

grumpy
03-01-2008, 08:56 PM
Yep, most of the "hard" T/S parameters seem to agree (Re, BL, Mms, Le),
it's the suspension-related stuff that varies (no surprise). Testing "freshies"
would give us a reasonable baseline. ... I see sean19's recent post shows
an Altec spec'd Fs of 30Hz for a 414-type unit.

Zilch
03-01-2008, 10:11 PM
The published Fs of 414-8C and -8E are 30.2 and 30.3, respectively. Assuming 414A was the same (see link below,) and a random sampling of them measures 10 Hz higher, what does that tell us?

1) The suspension is now stiffer due to age,

2) They're not performing to original spec, and,

3) "That Altec Sound" isn't what it used to be.

Do we have reason to expect that goop hardens and spiders stiffen after 40 years?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=31251&stc=1&d=1204428597

edgewound
03-02-2008, 11:19 AM
Do we have reason to expect that goop hardens and spiders stiffen after 40 years?


That's a good enough reason to reactivate/reflow the goop with MEK or acetone to loosen it up because it gets thicker after decades exposed to the air.

jblwolf
03-02-2008, 12:10 PM
Greetings all,I have also used a hairdryer to get the goop to reflow,verylow heat worked on a pair of 605's .I was wondering if any members have this "goop" that I could buy?,I have a pair of d123's that the goop has dryed out.I tryed to get the goop to reflow but theres not enough of it left to reflow.

grumpy
03-03-2008, 02:59 PM
1) I don't know where to buy "goop", or for that matter what it actually is.
There are comments about airflex and waldom #aa75, but it's not clear to
me that this is correct for cloth (vs. paper) surrounds or that either are
currently available.

2) Given 3 samples of 414z, I'll hazard a guess that 414c's were a redesign
to give similar performance in a smaller (~5/8) box with a small loss of
efficiency (and 2x power handling). Then again, my measurements could be
crap ... and I don't have a 414c to compare.

3) Once I reduce/reactivate the goop on the units I have and run them in a bit,
I'll retest for changes.

-grumpy

Steve Schell
03-08-2008, 03:57 PM
Mr. Bill Hayes, formerly of Altec, told me that the goop was a product of a company called Moyen. I don't know if Moyen is still around or if they still make goop.

grumpy
03-08-2008, 05:53 PM
Thanks Steve, they seem to still exist:

http://www.cpmoyen.com/

... as to whether they still make it ... :dont-know
or would bother with small quantities if they did.

Worth a phone call if someone is in need of it.

Mr. Widget
03-10-2008, 11:17 PM
The published Fs of 414-8C and -8E are 30.2 and 30.3, respectively. Assuming 414A was the same (see link below,) and a random sampling of them measures 10 Hz higher, what does that tell us?

1) The suspension is now stiffer due to age,

2) They're not performing to original spec, and,

3) "That Altec Sound" isn't what it used to be.

Do we have reason to expect that goop hardens and spiders stiffen after 40 years?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=31251&stc=1&d=1204428597I measured the FS of the pair I have. The one pictured at the beginning of this thread with the big mass of goop on the surround measured 35hz. The other 414Z which seems to be it's original mate, has far less goop on it and almost no puddle of ooze. It measured 32Hz.

I had been on the fence as to what to do with these woofers, but after taking an initial frequency response curve that showed quite a promising possibility for them I am going to fix these and give them a whirl.


Widget

grumpy
03-11-2008, 06:44 AM
The other 414Z which seems to be it's original mate, has far less goop on it and almost no puddle of ooze. It measured 32Hz.

Nice ... motivation for me to bother un-over-gooping the units I have.
(still looking for one more, possibly two, if anyone has a lead -besides- Ebay...)

-grumpy

UreiCollector
04-01-2008, 09:11 AM
I used a knife that i heated repeatedly with a flame....not too hot, just hot enough to melt the goo. did the trick, and only melted the goo where the knife touched. :)


by the way, does anyone know what that goo is? I would like to get my hands on some for a project.

lovethatsound
04-02-2008, 11:09 AM
There's a thread about it somewhere, if I remember right.

It is some sticky stuff. Main thing to make sure of is not letting direct sunlight on the woofers or the goo will start to melt and run.

If I have the window open, I have the grilles on, if the window is closed -- off come those grilles!

;)

AltecLansingFan
04-03-2008, 03:29 PM
There's a thread about it somewhere, if I remember right.

It is some sticky stuff. Main thing to make sure of is not letting direct sunlight on the woofers or the goo will start to melt and run.

If I have the window open, I have the grilles on, if the window is closed -- off come those grilles!

;)

I think the temperature is too hot, you better can move to Alaska!

basementbob
04-03-2008, 09:48 PM
i got a set i was thinking about parting with.here is a link to pics i put on forum http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15177&highlight=carmels. they work fine. i am going to keep the horns in the cabs. as u can see the set i got has a D130 in 1 cab and 2 414z in the other. why they did this i dont know. the only reason im selling is i need funds for jbl 2225h 15's and amps. and they take up alot of room.
from what i can gather they are rated at 35 watts. but im not sure about that. they do sound great. so Grumpy if u want a set with no goop runs let me know. the cabs are in bad shape. i saw a pair on the bay go for $291 + 30 s/h that looked as good as mine. the D130 is in great shape also.

grumpy
04-04-2008, 06:59 AM
Thanks Bbob. I'll keep those in mind... that was quite a save from the incinerator! :)

-grumpy

JoMoCo
12-29-2009, 06:40 PM
Grumpy, what would you estimate the approx sensitivity 1w/1m to be...:hmm:


FWIW, I ran two over-gooped (from what I've seen) 414z's through WT-2
and it seems I should indeed un-goop them and remeasure (significant
differences are shown):

Re: 11.5 ohms
Fs: 40, 49.2, 45 Hz
Qes: .29, .36, ...
Qms: 3.51, 2.46, 1.0
Qts: .267, .316, .3
Le: 2.3 mH
Vas: 210, 130, 150 l (delta mass method)
BL: 20, 20, 19.5
Mms: 41g

I've added info for a third unit.

-grumpy

Eaulive
12-30-2009, 07:10 AM
There's a thread about it somewhere, if I remember right.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26654

herki the cat
12-30-2009, 11:43 AM
I measured the FS of the pair I have. The one pictured at the beginning of this thread with the big mass of goop on the surround measured 35hz. The other 414Z which seems to be it's original mate, has far less goop on it and almost no puddle of ooze. It measured 32Hz.

I had been on the fence as to what to do with these woofers, but after taking an initial frequency response curve that showed quite a promising possibility for them I am going to fix these and give them a whirl. Widget
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Widget, I expect you have resolved the problems with deteriorated "goop" on your 414-z drivers referenced in your "03-11-2008 12:17 AM" via today's "new posts,which suggests there is still considerable interest in rehabilitating Altec speakers.

"Goop" is still available in tubes...more about that, later...Some 40 years ago, in a cnversation with A.J. May at the RCA Lunch club, the subject of trade secrets in the RCA LC1-A Drawings came up and A. J. remarked That he found it convenient to specify in the LC1-A drawing parts list:"Goop," Purchasing shall Contact Engineering for vender."

Recently i was rumaging around "The Home Depot Store," adhiesives shelves & I found a big bin full of genuime "Moyen Inc' Goop", in tubes.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheers herki the cat

grumpy
01-04-2010, 08:17 AM
This ?:

http://www.eclecticproducts.com/ag_adhesives.htm

Jomoco... the later 8 ohm versions were in the 96-97dB range,
If you have access to WinISD (free), you can plug in nominal
T/S values to get a sensitivity estimate...

herki the cat
04-28-2010, 01:50 PM
mr. Widget, i expect you have resolved the problems with deteriorated "goop" on your 414-z drivers referenced in your "03-11-2008 12:17 am" via today's "new posts,which suggests there is still considerable interest in rehabilitating altec speakers.

"goop" is still available in tubes...more about that, later...some 40 years ago, in a cnversation with A J May at the RCA lunch club, the subject of trade secrets in the RCA LC1-A drawings came up and A J May Remarked that he found it convenient to specify in the LC1-A drawing parts list:"goop," purchasing shall contact engineering for vender."

Recently i was rumaging around "the home depot store," adhiesives shelves & i found a big bin full of genuime "goop", in tubes.

Herki the cat

Up date 4/29/2010 regarding "goop"which you can still buy at the home depot in tubes. I had stated 'in error" in this post that "goop" was made by C. P. Moyen co." using info from a prestigous fellow LHForum fellow member's post.

However, Harvey Gerst;283577 states: "Yes, goop was originally only used on the JBL D123 cloth surround. I figured it would also be useful to prevent the paper surrounds on the "F" series from cracking."

BTW, I learned recently from Moyen Co., customer service that Moyen Co., is not the manufacturer of goop, a mistake in my post. The Goop manufacturer has been identified in this thread by member Maistrow in his post titled: "Hello From The Goop Guy"

Please contact Harvey Gerst;283577 for further info regarding "goop" since he met the "goop" people in an AES conference in NY City.