4355 as a center and sub

[Allanvh5150]

Hi all.

I am currently thinking about buiding a pair of subs for my home theatre. I am reconing a pair of E140 baskets with 2235 kits. I know what everyone will say, like, they will be totaly different from a 2235. I have run the numbers with several different cabinet sizes and to be perfectly honest, the pair of E140-2235 in a 10 cubic foot cabinet are only marginally different from a real 2235. I have decided to go with them. I thought to build a pair of B460's just because they look good. Of course they would be scaled down to 5 cubic feet fo a 15" driver. Now I have another idea. What are the thoughts on building a 4355 and utilising the 15"s for my sub and using the other speakers for a center channel. I plan on getting a 42" plasma and I think in would look mint sitting atop a 4355! Instead of using a 2441 and a 2405, I would probably go with a 2370 and 2405 combination. Give me your thought guys and gals.

thanks. :)

[Mr. Widget]

Keep on a dreamin' :)

Seriously, the 2202H will not extend low enough to be a top flight center. I really wouldn't use that horn period. In fact the use of 2235 kits in those baskets is the least of your worries.

Beyond that... do you really want to have your display that high off the floor? Lots of people do, but I like to have the center closer to my seated eye level.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

Thanks Widget.

Would you care to point me in a more "correct" direction? The processor that I use has the ability to route the low frequencies from any or all of the channels, to the sub, so having the center go "low" isnt really a problem for me. Having said that what would your recomended preference be for the low mid and the horn?

Allan.

[Mr. Widget]

Would you care to point me in a more "correct" direction?Well, ultimately the correct direction is what ever YOU want within your space and financial constraints.

Beyond that, to give you my opinion, I'd want to know how loudly you play your system, the size of the room, and what your front left and right speakers will be.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

Hi Widget,

The space that I have is about 4m x 4m but the new system will move to a room that is 12m x 5m. The budget is what will get me the result that I want but bare in mind, it is sometimes difficult to get the drivers that I want all the way down in NZ. My current fronts are 2225 and 2370/2425, I have a pair of L86's for the left/right surrounds and, dare I say it, E20 rears and EC25 center. All driven with a total of about 1000 watts. Recently I built a pair of L150's and a pair of L150A's to swap for the fronts I have now. I am very pleased with these. I was beginning to tire of the horn style fronts as I play a lot of music and I find it tiring to listen to horns for a long time. But they are great for movies though. The northridge stuff is on the way out as soon as I build replacements. The only requirements I have is it must look good, it must sound good and it must be vintage JBL. But for now my mind is on the sub and the center.

Allan. :)

[Robh3606]

Hello Allan

Why not just go with a 3rd identical cabinet if you like your HT mains. I would not tie the subs into a center channel cabinet. Much better idea to have them separate for optimum placement.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

I was beginning to tire of the horn style fronts as I play a lot of music and I find it tiring to listen to horns for a long time.It's no wonder with those fronts... Those fronts would make a nice little PA rig, but I'd never use them in my home for music.


Why not make a custom center using L150 components?


Much better idea to have them separate (the subs) for optimum placement.:yes:


Widget

[toddalin]

You could use one 15" as the center and the other as the sub, as I do. I also put a switch on back that disconnects the 2235 from the center channel and routes it in parallel to the sub channel (bloated bass, but really kicks some butt). This is because my processor (Yamaha RX-Z9) does not use the center channel for dozens of the "music surround" settings, and around here, nothing goes to waste.

This is a 10 cu ft cabinet.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/center-2235-w15gti.jpg

[Mr. Widget]

This is because my processor (Yamaha RX-Z9) does not use the center channel for dozens of the "music surround" settings...:rotfl:

If that's your thing. I am more of a purist and prefer simple Dolby Digital or DTS in which ever flavor the soundtrack or music was mixed in.

As for the center sub combo, it may work well in your situation or at least work well for you, but combining it does limit your ability to remove the "bloated bass" that may occur in some rooms... if you wanted to. ;)


Widget

[toddalin]

:rotfl:

If that's your thing. I am more of a purist and prefer simple Dolby Digital or DTS in which ever flavor the soundtrack or music was mixed in.

Widget

Come over and listen to the "Roxy Theater" (my favorite for music) or the myriad of other venues that were actually based on measurements of the various concert halls, stadiums, churches, etc. around the world. I find this preferable for music to DD.

As to the bloated bass when used in parallel with the W15GTI, that can be tamed though use of the volume control and sub settings, if desired. In some cases (e.g., the anemic bass lines of the Doors where Ray used the Fender Rhodes key bass), a little bloat is sometimes just what the doctor ordered.

Recognize that I also use a Sunfire Signature. Furthermore, between the Sunfire and the W15GTI (without the 2235), when the Yamaha goes though the autoeq, the bass is flat at the seating area and the Yamaha applies LITTLE TO NO EQ to the LFE channel! (And boy did that take some tweeking between the two systems. ;))

[4313B]

What are the thoughts on building a 4355Build three 4355's across the front and don't worry about subs.

[Allanvh5150]

Build three 4355's across the front and don't worry about subs.

Now that would be a good look. Do you have an endless supply of 2235's?:applaud:

[4313B]

Now that would be a good look. Do you have an endless supply of 2235's?:applaud:I trip over the damn things all the time. I think they might horse around at night and make more.

[subwoof]

The little ones are called squawkers but by the time you put 180K into them and wait 18 years, you don't want them as woofers around your house.

I suggest a scaled-down version of the DMS-1 center channel with LE111H's and one of the new PT-H horns. Should be able to get down to 12" high.

sub

[Mr. Widget]

I think they might horse around at night and make more.:rotfl:


Widget

[Zilch]

I suggest a scaled-down version of the DMS-1 center channel with LE111H's and one of the new PT-H horns. Should be able to get down to 12" high.Rob started a vertical MTM using PT-H, but seems to have abandoned it. That approach may work better horizontal.

I built SK2 with one of the woofers a "Helper."

Designing MTM with dual woofers may require more measurement space than I currently have available.

We think of mains as defining the center driver complement. There's no reason it can't be the opposite....

[Mr. Widget]

Designing MTM with dual woofers may require more measurement space than I currently have available.
Heck, measuring a tweeter requires more space than you currently have available. :moon:


You guys are all stuck on horns... he said he like the sound of his L150s and L150As... :blah:


Widget

[Robh3606]

Rob started a vertical MTM using PT-H, but seems to have abandoned it.

Yes I certainly have.


You guys are all stuck on horns... he said he like the sound of his L150s and L150As... :blah:

That's not true I was in the middle of a DX-1 biamped L250ti Jubilee clone when my receiver gave up the ghost. That kinda killed things and made me change direction from the two channel to my surround set-up. Once I get that all sorted out I will start working on them again. Still have my XPL's for 2 channel except with the 121A's in them. Couldn't resist fiddling.


I was beginning to tire of the horn style fronts as I play a lot of music and I find it tiring to listen to horns for a long time. But they are great for movies though.

He likes them too but I have to agree whatever you use should do both well. Makes things a lot easier.

Rob:)

[Allanvh5150]

The other thing that I can do is to switch out the LE5 and 044/033 comination and switch in a horn and 2404 for movies. Then I could get the best of both worlds. I now have 2235 kits, so am I gonna put em in the E140 baskets I have or do I hold out for some 2225's? All ideas are welcome, weather it be horns or not.

Allan. :)

[Robh3606]

I now have 2235 kits, so am I gonna put em in the E140 baskets I have or do I hold out for some 2225's?

I would. Be easier to sell down the road than Frankenwoofers and at least you know what your getting. If you want more sensitivity and less bass just leave out the mass ring to make them 2234's. That way if you ever decide to part with them you can sell them as 2234's or 2235's. If you go the 2234 route make sure you keep the mass rings. They can always go in at a later date and if you sell them the new owner has that option as well.


The other thing that I can do is to switch out the LE5 and 044/033 comination and switch in a horn and 2404 for movies.

JBL did that in the Synthesis sytems. Different HF drivers for movies and music.

Rob:)

[Allanvh5150]

JBL did that in the Synthesis sytems. Different HF drivers for movies and music.

Great minds think alike. That is where the idea came from. Have you ever run any numbers on the E140-2235 verse 2235? On paper they look very similar in a 5 cubic foot cabinet, just a few Db down in the lower region but the dropoff is identical. Or am I missing something?

Allan.:)

[Mr. Widget]

The other thing that I can do is to switch out the LE5 and 044/033 comination and switch in a horn and 2404 for movies.:yes:

It really complicates things, but if you implement it well, you can really have a phenomenal system.:bouncy:


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Have you ever run any numbers on the E140-2235 verse 2235? On paper they look very similar in a 5 cubic foot cabinet...I have run the numbers... and I have lived with the results. (In 5 cu ft cabs.) They do look similar and they do sound similar, but I wouldn't do it again... use the right basket and you will be happier.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

:yes:

It really complicates things, but if you implement it well, you can really have a phenomenal system.:bouncy:


Widget


Thanks Widget,

the processor I use hase a programable switch that can operate on the different sources so I can have the horns switch in for movies and then switch back for music. I need more time to think:bouncy:

[toddalin]

The other thing that I can do is to switch out the LE5 and 044/033 comination and switch in a horn and 2404 for movies. Then I could get the best of both worlds. I now have 2235 kits, so am I gonna put em in the E140 baskets I have or do I hold out for some 2225's? All ideas are welcome, weather it be horns or not.

Allan. :)

Are you thinking of using the same crossover and simply switching between the horns and cones mounted in the same cabinet??? :blink:

I think that you will find that the crossover freqs, slopes, and volume levels won't be optimized for either setup and you would have to be tweeking the levels each time you change over or make a custom crossover that can be changed at the flip of a switch.

[Mr. Widget]

Are you thinking of using the same crossover and simply switching between the horns and cones mounted in the same cabinet??? I doubt that there are many members here that would be that naive. ;) I am sure he would be switching between "systems" not drivers. It'll still be a challenge to get it really right with all of those drivers, but I have confidence that with a bit of perseverance he'll pull it off. :bouncy:



Widget

[Allanvh5150]

Hi all,

To answer your question, I have made my L150's to be bi-amped so I will be switching complete systems in and out, eventually active as well. I consider the L150's to be to my liking so I will need to taylor a crossover for whichever horns I will use and probably 2404's. I have always liked horns for movies because they are more "in your face", not such a good thing for music though. :)

[Robh3606]

I have always liked horns for movies because they are more "in your face",

You need new horns:D

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

You need new horns:D :yes: :yes: :yes:


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

And what would thoses new horns be? Why dont we like 2370's?:)

[Mr. Widget]

And what would thoses new horns be?That depends on who's asking. :D

The horns on my short list are JBL 2397/Smith/Westlake horns, Altec 511s (treated), round tractrix horns, and some of the TAD horns. Of course there are others and they vary with application.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

That depends on who's asking. :D

The horns on my short list are JBL 2397/Smith/Westlake horns, Altec 511s (treated), ........

Widget

2397 would be nice if I could get them, then again I could make some if i had some plans. 511's? Dont ever want to go there again. I have a lot of bad memories using those 511's and 811's in professional applications. Maybe treated they would be better.

[Mr. Widget]

511's? Dont ever want to go there again. I have a lot of bad memories using those 511's and 811's in professional applications.Yeah, me too! But I have heard them sound pretty good in the right hands.


2397 would be nice if I could get them, then again I could make some if i had some plans.I did a couple of quick searches...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=35121&postcount=4


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=189992&highlight=2397#post189992


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, me too! But I have heard them sound pretty good in the right hands.

I did a couple of quick searches...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=35121&postcount=4


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=189992&highlight=2397#post189992


WidgetEARLY ELDORADO 1973, Altec 811, and 511,s, SHRILL, piercing, screechy.

Later, low power, better SS amps, and processing provided sweeter sound. But, JBL HF and Comp drivers took me by storm.

These days, my focus and energy are directed to making TODAYS music and playback mediums sound great. Much as I love vintage and vinyl, it aint whats for dinner tonight.

Welcome to the " DIGITAL DINING ROOM ", clean electronics and drivers only.

[Robh3606]

Me I liked the old 2344, that is my favorite JBL horn from that time frame. You can get 2370's to sound better balanced by using a low value bypass cap to help bring up the last 2 octaves. They were a very popular horn in SR cabinets so they can get a bad rap from that alone. Take a look at the Pi Speaker site. Wayne used to use the 2370 quite a bit. If you take a look at his networks you can see how get's a little extra out of them up high.

I am using all PT Waveguides now but was thinking hard about trying to get hold of a pair of Geedes horns or Dr Edgars round tractrix horns. I have not heard Geedes horn but have heard the good Dr's. They sound damn nice, I just like a wider sweet spot. Other than that I would have a pair.

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

Im looking into changing to DDS fiberglass CD horns, 110 degree H by 40 degrees V dispersion, the TAD and premium JBL drivers sound good on these. And I can fit them in.

I think I am putting 2395,s to sleep this spring.

Height is a factor, corner horns only have 2in clearence to steel grid.

The TAD 4002 works really well with this horn. DDS makes nice horns.

[toddalin]

Me I liked the old 2344, that is my favorite JBL horn from that time frame. You can get 2370's to sound better balanced by using a low value bypass cap to help bring up the last 2 octaves.
Rob:)


Agreed, when mated to 2425Js, I was able to do an HF by-pass to tweek the "keeper crossovers" to dial in the HF and it was a far cry better than without. I could actually get the highs from the 2370s smoother than the P.Audio PH-230 (semi-cheek replicas). Both horns used totally different by-pass schemes to each achieve their smoothest settings.

[Allanvh5150]

2344's with 2425's would be nice. Are the P-audio horns worthy to have a 2425 hanging on the back? The 2425's and 2370's that I have are the first JBL's that I ever purchased. Way back in 1984 I think. They still have their original diaphragms! I have them well tamed but I am sure they could be better. :)

[toddalin]

2344's with 2425's would be nice. Are the P-audio horns worthy to have a 2425 hanging on the back? :)

Matter of opinion I would guess. The P.Audio horns work fine for me and at ~9" x 9" they will fit in lots of places that the true butt cheeks won't.

As expected, I got a little more low freq extension out of the 2370s, and properly tweeked, they were a little smoother at the top. But the P.Audio horns are fairly smooth in their working range (Zilch has plots) and the WAF of the 2370 horns hanging under the cabinet was much worse. However, I must say that the bass response with the 2370s was better due to the additional interior cabinet volume that was subsequently taken up by the horn/driver.

Don't expect to use the same HF compensation with the P.Audio horn as the 2370. If your crossover is taylored to the 2370, you would want to re-tweek it for the P.Audio horn. I was able to accomplish this using my Behringer RTA. (See regardless of overall quality or signal degradation, they do have a valid use even if not actually in the audio chain.)

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/index_011.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/index_0101.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_0066.jpg

[Allanvh5150]

So after a lot of thought I am still tending toward a 4355 type cabinet with a different top end configuration. I dont think the fact that the center will not go deep, will really be a problem as I can put the center bottom end into the sub anyway. i think I will throw together a mockup and see what it looks like.:)