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SMKSoundPro
02-14-2008, 02:07 PM
Here are pix from the rig I have been building for the last year. We piled it all up, yesterday. I will finish wiring today. All vintage JBL. It has been fun!
Please offer positive feedback.
Scott.

barkingdog
02-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Nice, but are you figuring on people being really tall?:blink:

boputnam
02-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Nice, but are you figuring on people being really tall?:blink:My first thought, too - of course after I marvelled at the scope of the project! :applaud:

If it were me, I'd move the dual 15-in(?) vertical cabinets to the top of the lowest subs, and put the horns on-top of them.

Then, I'd move the "other" subs (??) to the top of the entire stack, or...


Please offer positive feedback.Only positive...? :o:

- I think you've got too many subs (but that's just me - I prefer to not work against such intense LF loading of the room...). If you are utilizing a DSP, you could consider moving two of the subs out into the room somewhere - along the walls - and delaying them to the mains. Putting the subs out in the room along the side walls will reduce LF loading on stage (the artists will LOVE you) and give the audience their needed "thump-before-they-hump" (they will love you too)...

- I worry about comb-filtering of those two horns, side-by-side. What are their dispersion characteristics? :hmm:

hjames
02-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Here are pix from the rig I have been building for the last year. We piled it all up, yesterday. I will finish wiring today. All vintage JBL. It has been fun!
Please offer positive feedback.
Scott.

Dang!!
Who put the bomp in the
Woomp woomp woomp woomp!

My guess is you won't need to play very loud to fill the room!

Baron030
02-14-2008, 03:58 PM
Wow, that’s a “Wall O’ Sound” alright.

It looks to me like you could turn your DIY 4770a boxes upside down and it would put the HF horns at just about ear level. It’s just a thought.

Well, I am sure you will be playing around with different stack configurations for sometime to come.

Congratulations Scott. :applaud:

Baron030 :)

boputnam
02-14-2008, 04:03 PM
]It looks to me like you could turn your DIY 4770a boxes upside down and it would put the HF horns at just about ear level. It’s just a thought.Yea, that was what I was trying to say...

Jakob
02-14-2008, 06:10 PM
Nice work! Are the lower subs 2245 and the upper 2242's?

I thought it was general practice to have mid and tweeters way up high like this to prevent the crowd's clothes to eat up all the highs. But hey, I'm not a PRO-guy. Just referring to how things have been on concerts I've attended. If this is too high, can't you just tilt the top boxes slightly forward?

Fred Sanford
02-14-2008, 06:11 PM
Here are pix from the rig I have been building for the last year. We piled it all up, yesterday. I will finish wiring today. All vintage JBL. It has been fun!
Please offer positive feedback.
Scott.

Looks like fun, now go get some protective grilles on there before the gerfingerpoken und mittengrabben.

I'd flip the full-range cabs, too.

Too bad I want to Anchorage in '04, before I knew you were there...

je

subwoof
02-14-2008, 08:39 PM
Either stack or splay the horns. That configuration will only serve to create lobes and kill the flies on the window sills. bounce, bounce, bounce. Make grill frames and double the grill cloth for the horns. makes a nice diffusion / club sound.

Put the subs on the sides of the room and make glass tops for them for drinks with a solid wood lip.( and delay like mentioned )

Create small, managable stacks on each side of the stage that can be moved when the band / DJ / artist brings their ( our PA or no way ) rig.

Put the horns at NBA ear level and put grill cloth on the woofer grills to keep the body fluids out AND get your reconing guy to put the WR coating on ALL the cones. cheap insurance.

Put thin pine skids on the bottom of the floor level cabs so drink spooge doesn't pool underneath.

sub

btw - that stack's proximity to the exit doors doesn't meet code..:o)

SMKSoundPro
02-15-2008, 03:58 AM
Thank you all for the encouragement and some great ideas!

Just got home. 2am. I did not get to play with the tuning of the rig very much. Thursday is "scare-ee-okay" night and the KJ host was doing a pretty good job of dialing things in.

I will respond to your post asap. Tomorrow is "Hairspray" night with the cast coming from their broadway show at the performing arts center, then to our Mad Myrna's nightclub for cast party and show. I will get things dialed in a little better during our friday night drag/variety show, then the hairspray cast comes in.

On first impression, all is pretty good. With live vocalists and backup tracks sounded pretty good. I was playing "Unforgettable" album when Lisa got there. She really thought it was very good.

All speakers in place. The jail bars are in front of the stacks and screwed in at the ceiling and down to the plinth block base which is up off of the floor by an inch to allow for drinks to puddle. And yes I know I am close to that fire exit. Lisa and I will shorten the main stage curtains and pull the stacks a little closer to the stage for egress. We have 8 fire exits in that room, which is 35' x 100' with a 10' ceiling. Lisa is always in charge of curtains and fabric. All stacks are now wrapped in sparkly purple on the sides, with black gossamer fabric with multifaceted sparkles on the fronts. (you would think she was gay, or something. Fabulous job!) No one will ever see the actual speakers behind it all.

We received crown macro 24x6 amps to run the 4770 boxes and a 2400 on each pair of subs. The upper sub cabs hold 2241s, and the lower cabs have 2240's. I din't have enough 2241's, and I really like the way the 2240's sound. The subs are running 120hz down. No DSP installed, yet. Using dbx 120xp for sub driver, then into dbx 234 to split the 2225's at 800 for the 2445/2385 40x60 degree horn, then 7-8k for the bullets. Only one bullet is active in each box. The other bullet is just a phasing plug and horn mounted on a piece of 1/2" birch plywood. It is just a plug until I decide to find 4 more bullets. It sounds pretty tinkly up there, though. All active bullets are driven by a crown d60 silver face. Seems enough power so far. I don't have a d75 handy. I have the dbx driverack 260 that I had planned to use, but now it seema as if I will need the 4800 model since I am running 4-way active.

About 35' from the stage wall, I have two 4722's hung from the unistrut on each side of the room acting as a side fills for the dancing. Just enough sound SPL to add a little presence at that point. I have thought about another pair of subs there, but that is the same place where the low frequency hump is in the room. Just don't seem to need it. Then there is a speed bar, tall tables and barstools at the back half of the room that is carpeted. Lisa and I have wrapped balck and gold velvet curtain aound the entire room as evidenced in the pix.I had some corrugated v style aoustic 1" thick foam on the ceiling to try and sop up some of the ringing. Most came unglued, then ripped down and ruined by neanderthal security staff.

I know the 2385 horns are high in the air column, but my justification is that this rig could be used somewhere else when I leave this bar after 9 years, and get a real job and a life. I understand your point about a cabinet with a 15, then horn in the middle and another 15 on top. An MTM style of cab, and it just did not occur to me until one of you pointed that out. I just gotta tell you that the horn is way up there, and easily floats down towards the back on the room, nicely.

Thank you all for your advice and counsel! I hope you enjoy what you are building, like I have been. Will write more on Saturday, and then to work on building the float for the winter parade on the 23rd.

Sincerely,

Scott M. Koeller.

Is anyone else embarrassed that the Wildcats got swept by Arizona State this year? What happened there??? Unheard of.

subwoof
02-15-2008, 09:14 AM
"hairspray nite"..???

ok...:)

Anyways I suggest using a comtech 210/200 on the bullets instead of the D60. It's NEVER the power, it's always the lack thereof that caused problems..

(A) they match the macro + micro chassis size / look.
(B) You have clip, signal and status lights.
(C) You have turn-on delay AND DC protection.
(D) You can put a CLP limiter card in them too.

And they are CHEAPER than D60's on ebay.

Also use some treatment on the ceiling in front of the stacks for the first 20 feet to knock down the early reflection. this will make the sound engineer very happy.

sub

boputnam
02-15-2008, 10:12 AM
...then to work on building the float for the winter parade on the 23rd. You just gotta love them Alaskans... :)

jackgiff
02-15-2008, 10:22 AM
Is anyone else embarrassed that the Wildcats got swept by Arizona State this year? What happened there??? Unheard of.

Hey Scott, ASU just beat Stanford, the #7 team in the country. Maybe hiring Herb Sendek was the best thing Lisa Love has done.

I kind of like it!

And your new setup looks very coooool. Nice work.

SMKSoundPro
02-15-2008, 12:47 PM
Anyways I suggest using a comtech 210/200 on the bullets instead of the D60. It's NEVER the power, it's always the lack thereof that caused problems..
Also use some treatment on the ceiling in front of the stacks for the first 20 feet to knock down the early reflection. this will make the sound engineer very happy.
sub
I also have a crown Power Base 2 amp available, and a Crown Macro 600. It just seemed a whole lotta amp for 4 bullets running from 7k upto daylight. I am using the 600 for booth monitor duty. I have 2 - 4312's mounted in the booth soffet.

I agree about the ceiling treatment, and will glue up the 2'x4' foam panels in front of the stacks to squelch the horn's reflections.

It really is a humpin' and bumpin' bar. Gay, straight or otherwise, its a great venue for so many different events. Sort of like the Moose Lodge, Elk's Club or hotel ballrooms. Banqueting, catering and in-house sound/lighting & production services. I haven't talked at all about all of the video stuff in the place. Bottom line, here in Alaska, everyone gets along and comes out and celebrates at our nightclub. The largest of its kind here in AK.

Thanks, Scotty.

Jack, its good to hear from you. My Myrna is the big dragqueen that manages the place. Always think of your Myrna and my boss and can never imagine that these two Myrna's are anything alike! Say a hearty hello to your lovely wife from Lisa and I.

(Subwoof, If you ever feel uncomfortable at our place, just keep your backside against the wall. :biting:)

boputnam
02-15-2008, 02:25 PM
...I agree about the ceiling treatment, and will glue up the 2'x4' foam panels in front of the stacks to squelch the horn's reflections.While foam will absorb, it can overly deaden a room. Even better is use of diffusion panels...


Also use some treatment on the ceiling in front of the stacks for the first 20 feet to knock down the early reflection. this will make the sound engineer very happy.Bingo, subwoof!

Taylor Guitars VIP Performance Center with RPG Treatment (http://www.rpginc.com/proaudio/projects/taylor.htm) - see the diffusers above down stage?

Genius, and more interesting to look at than foam...

Zilch
02-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Would you turn that rig down after 2 AM please, Scotty?

[We'd LIKE to get some damn sleep down here.... ;) ]

subwoof
02-15-2008, 03:19 PM
Actually I have a number of clients in Kwest and the scenery there is understandably, diverse. My teenage daughters want to go on my next roadtrip this spring and maybe they should "take a walk on the wild side" and see all the club installs.

doo doo-doo doo-doo doo duh duh doo doo-doo ( apologies to lou reed )

sub

boputnam
02-15-2008, 08:40 PM
...doo doo-doo doo-doo doo duh duh doo doo-doo ( apologies to lou reed )...That there was good. It was even in the right key... :p

SMKSoundPro
02-16-2008, 03:16 PM
OUTSTANDING!!!!

Sounds like a GREAT tour! I would love to see some other club installs!

We were at Jazz Alley in Seattle last Valentines day to see Bobby Caldwell. Great live venue.

We didn't get to the dance clubs, though. Lisa and I both know they will look at us like their parents!
what is Kwest?

smk

Actually I have a number of clients in Kwest and the scenery there is understandably, diverse. My teenage daughters want to go on my next roadtrip this spring and maybe they should "take a walk on the wild side" and see all the club installs.

doo doo-doo doo-doo doo duh duh doo doo-doo ( apologies to lou reed )

sub

hjames
02-16-2008, 04:14 PM
Must be Key West, FLA!

('course Lou Reed sang about Miami F L A ...)



OUTSTANDING!!!!

Sounds like a GREAT tour! I would love to see some other club installs!

We were at Jazz Alley in Seattle last Valentines day to see Bobby Caldwell. Great live venue.

We didn't get to the dance clubs, though. Lisa and I both know they will look at us like their parents!
what is Kwest?

smk

scott fitlin
02-16-2008, 08:25 PM
OUTSTANDING!!!!

Sounds like a GREAT tour! I would love to see some other club installs!

We were at Jazz Alley in Seattle last Valentines day to see Bobby Caldwell. Great live venue.

We didn't get to the dance clubs, though. Lisa and I both know they will look at us like their parents!
what is Kwest?

smkHey Scott, nice rig. Another one with floor to cieling stacks!

I'm getting pics online this year, too.

But, you did a great job and Im sure your place is ROCKKKKKIN!


:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

SMKSoundPro
02-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Thanks Scotty!

It is rocking! Playing music is very enjoyable, as the room has a major hump and bump quality! Serious bump and sizzle I never had before.

BUT,... when mixing for live mics for the Hairspray cast performances, I had a TOUGH time eq'ing that 160 - 250 hump out of room. I have some ideas what to do, but just need to go into the room with no one else around and just play with the RTA eq.

The horns at the top really cut through the din of the people. I have got to work on the midbass hump. Feedback city.

I have every mic individually gated and limted with a 166 on each insert. Now I need to change out the mixing board from the mackie 1402 that I installed 9 years ago, and did just fine, to something much more comprehensive. I have a ramsa wr-4412, and wr-4416 in my kit. Nothing more extravagant than that. No mix wizard, soundcraft series three, midas or ...

I am thinking of installing the wr-4412. 12 channel mic with 4 stereo inputs. I can then use the 4 submixes and group my live sure wireless mics. I know the limits of the mackie 1402, and have left it alone knowing that the stacks and racks were a priority.

I keep telling myself, this stuff is ALL about compromises!" And to that end, will keep making those little changes in the overall rig to give the desired results for all of the operators involved.

I would love to see YOUR rig Scott Fitlin. I see you post alot about your bumper car experience, and Lisa and I would love to see some pictures of your setup!

If it were JUST to play music, this rig is certainly capable of some serious humpin and bumpin'!!! But, it is also supposed to be agile enough to take care of the live performances. After all, It IS the house rig. If other bands want to bring in their own rig, great! Should they NEED to?; well that is another story.

I am truely thrilled with ALL of your collective suggestions and am implementing them as fast as I can! I know I am NOT alone in this pro sound field, and have never had the serious capital required to be a big player! I am just a guy trying to make a good sounding nightclub that people will want to come to.

Scott.

edgewound
02-17-2008, 05:01 PM
Thanks Scotty!

BUT,... when mixing for live mics for the Hairspray cast performances, I had a TOUGH time eq'ing that 160 - 250 hump out of room. I have some ideas what to do, but just need to go into the room with no one else around and just play with the RTA eq.

Scott.

Nice big-rig Scott.

Sounds like you've got a feed back problem with the resonance of the stage being picked up by the mic-stands.

You could also try inverting the inside pair of dual 15's to broaden your mid -hi coverage and minimize comb overlap. You could treat them as two separate short throw/long throw systems by lowering the gain on the inside pair and aim inward towards the dance floor for short throw...that could help minimize feedback in your room as well.

I'd also move the stacks even with the front of the stage...get the mics behind the speakers, and also give some "backstage egress" to the stage sides.

Sometimes you gotta get creative with your acoustic space to overcome frustrations.

If you use foam on the ceiling just make sure its fire proof. Remember Great White?

SMKSoundPro
02-17-2008, 05:21 PM
Sounds like you've got a feed back problem with the resonance of the stage being picked up by the mic-stands.

If you use foam on the ceiling just make sure its fire proof. Remember Great White?

Dear Edge,

I mainly have live singers with a shure ut handheld/86capsule wandering about singing and receiving tips. So it is a matter of gain and the room nodes, I beleive.

Yes, all applied materials have a fire rating as best as possible! Never forget great white's problems, and the needless deaths that occurred that night. It must have been Horrorific! to say the least.

I was flipping the phase of the drivers on the dbx 234 while the performance were happening, and listening to the results. I donot have the two top boxes on seperate amps. Both top boxes are on one Macro 24x6 with macro 600 channel for the bullets. If I had another pair of 24x6 amps, then yes, I could turn down the splayed pair and let the outside pair bark twords the back of the room a little harder.

My real main focus, though is to get all mics into a subgroup with an eq. I have a couple of White 4650(?) 1/3 octave, w/ the transformer input package sitting upstairs in a rack. I need to make my fornt end a little more comprehensive.

I also did not utilize the crossover portion of the dbx 120, so actually the 4- 18's ran all the way up to 800hz wit the 4-15's. So, I will turn the rack around and flip THAT switch. So you see what I mean,... there are some silly little things to do to dial this thing in.

All help and advise is ALWAYS welcome!!! ( I DON't know it all!)
(17 years of AA taught me that:applaud:)

Keep it coming!!!!

Scotty.

SMKSoundPro
02-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Nice big-rig Scott.

You could also try inverting the inside pair of dual 15's to broaden your mid -hi coverage and minimize comb overlap. Never considered that.

I'd also move the stacks even with the front of the stage...get the mics behind the speakers, and also give some "backstage egress" to the stage sides. Please see first picture of exit door. I thought tucking stage against the wall was my best bet, knowing the acoustic problems it brings with it.

Sometimes you gotta get creative with your acoustic space to overcome frustrations. Always trying to think creatively!

boputnam
02-18-2008, 08:30 AM
BUT,... when mixing for live mics for the Hairspray cast performances, I had a TOUGH time eq'ing that 160 - 250 hump out of room. Bummer, but I am not surprised. You've built a hella machine there, capable of generating massive room loading. :(


I have some ideas what to do, but just need to go into the room with no one else around and just play with the RTA eq. My experience tells me it ain't just about post EQ. EQ cannot remedy something like this - you need to NOT start the excitation resonances - that is the goal to achieving successful and pleasing PA.


I have got to work on the midbass hump. Feedback city.This is likely coming both from the room as a whole and the sides of the cabinets - they are flush with the stage (because the room is relatively narrow to the size of the stage) and surely generating sizeable wave front on their own resonance.


I have every mic individually gated and limted with a 166 on each insert. The artists will hate you. If you are running any sort of monitors, they will hear the gating and C/L and be fighting it. No-one likes to sing against a gate, let allone a C/L. You are treating the symptom and not the problem.

- Are you running monitors? If so, certainly use an aggressive HPF.
- Is the stage hollow? You are sunk. Need to brace that stage as if it was a speaker cabinet. Or, pour some concrete in there or something acoustically absorbent (injected foam) to deaden it.


I am thinking of installing the wr-4412. 12 channel mic with 4 stereo inputs. Aren't all Ramsa inserts Ring = (+). Drives me nutters... :barf:


...this rig is certainly capable of some serious humpin and bumpin'!!! That was my concern at the outset. But I never get replies here... :dont-know

But, it is also supposed to be agile enough to take care of the live performances. After all, It IS the house rig. If other bands want to bring in their own rig, great! Should they NEED to?; well that is another story.No, they shouldn't. This can be remedied, Scotty. You might need to try simply unplugging half of each stack. Certainly that will still be ample SPL for that relatively small room, plenty of woofs, too. It will lessen much of your problem.


So it is a matter of gain and the room nodes, I beleive.It is a matter of far too much excitation of the room. Those stacks are throwing a ton of stuff on the walls and ceiling. Not the desired approach. Once you excite the room to that degree, you will look bad as the soundguy.


My real main focus, though is to get all mics into a subgroup with an eq. I have a couple of White 4650(?) 1/3 octave, w/ the transformer input package sitting upstairs in a rack. This should not be necessary. I work all manner of clubs and all manner of systems and never have had to put an EQ on a Group buss. That is where I put a C/L. Again, you are putting salve over the symptom but the patient is dying from a systemic problem.


I need to make my fornt end a little more comprehensive.What does this mean?


...so actually the 4- 18's ran all the way up to 800hz wit the 4-15's. :blink: Dood.
I mean, dood! :scold: That is far too much energy in the range you are struggling with. Put some low (80Hz?) HPF on those 18's, and tight band-pass (80Hz - x00Hz??) the 15's - steep -24dB slopes all around. Check your phasing carefully. Make sure there is minimal doubling in the area of band pass overlap.


So, I will turn the rack around and flip THAT switch. So you see what I mean,... there are some silly little things to do to dial this thing in. Not silly at all - normal systems engineering stuff. Actually, us SR guys have to do parts of this at every club we walk into. Owners/management install something that looks good/impressive on paper, but may not compliment the room. Too often, it is an imbalanced or poor sounding system. We must tame it to get a good show. In this case, it is good sounding system but just too much and hard to wrestle in its complexity.

You took a monstrous step here. So, let's bring your experience along with it.

Some basic observations/suggestions:

you have out-grown "ordinary" two-channel crossovers. You need a sophisticated DSP - something 4-in, 8-out like the xta DP448 (http://www.xta.uk.com/products-series4.html). This is a major expense and will largely fix your wagon - it will give the power you need to control all those drivers effectively. Use the 8 outputs for each band pass (VLF, LF, MF, HF) L/R. Set some complimentary crossover points with steep slopes and dial-in each band pass phasing and delay accordingly. This is going to be a lot of work and require some representative/reproducable measurements, but is easy enough to do. You can stick with your "ordinary" 2-channel crossovers if you want, but you are going to have to be much more diligent about your use. However, you need more control over inter-element time-alignment and system delay, and cannot do any of that with "ordinary" 2-channel crossovers.
You are imparting FAR TOO MUCH ENERGY into that space. Cut the stacks in half and move them away from stage as-is-possible. Put one (remaining...) sub each side out into the room and delay to the Mains.
Reinforce the stage.

Andyoz
02-18-2008, 09:00 AM
Yep,

I'd only be running half that size of PA in that room - as said before, having two mid-high boxes would be causing more problems than it solves (should only be done with gear that's designed for it). Note sure what the room dimensions are but it doesn't look like a huge room.

The room does look rather "live" acoustically. If you are going to put any sound absorbent treatment in there, make sure it's at least 50mm foam as putting thin stuff on the walls only provides decent absorption at 500Hz and above. Too many rooms are too live between 150-500Hz and it's hard to get a good mix in them.

I tend to tackle the rear wall absorption first and get the wall behind the stage absorbent as well. The trick is to suspend heavy wool serge drapes (626gsm) on a 200-300mm cavity as that extends the useful absorption down to about 200Hz rather than cutting off at around 500Hz.

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Wow!

Where do I start to answer all of these suggestions?
I am heading into the club now to start addressing Bo's advice.

Will answer back later with results.

Thank YOU!

Scott.

ps. no multi monitor mixes. just two eons on each side of stage a little fill for the dragqueen"s music tracks.

Andyoz
02-18-2008, 02:44 PM
How big is the room?

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2008, 02:49 PM
35' x100' with 10' ceiling.

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2008, 02:59 PM
Is the stage hollow? You are sunk. Need to brace that stage as if it was a speaker cabinet. Or, pour some concrete in there or something acoustically absorbent (injected foam) to deaden it."

Yes, it is. And I felt it jumping under my feet, too.

It is 2x6's on one foot centers with three short pony walls for support. 3/4" osb t&g flooring glued and screwed on top for the decking. Carpet glued on top.

Lisa and I were just discussing putting another layer of osb decking over the old worn out carpeting and re-carpeting.

With the concrete idea, I can screw the plywood to open rafter on the bottom side, peel the old top off, use my cement mixer from Lisa's father, and pour in concrete. Let harden. Re-deck and carpet anew.

This will certainly add mass and deaden and stage vibes up a mic stand.

Great idea!

Thanks.

Andyoz
02-18-2008, 03:03 PM
35' x100' with 10' ceiling.

That's a low ceiling to work with (another 5 feet would be nice). Does the audience extend down the full length of the room or (say) only half way? I imagine it sounds "muddy" in the back half and it would be hard to improve that without a "specialist" rig.

What's along the rear wall - is it a plain flat wall or is there a bar or something.

boputnam
02-18-2008, 03:21 PM
...deaden and stage vibes up a mic stand.That will certainly help, but you should try disconnecting some of the drivers and see if you are lacking anything (other than trouble... :p ).

Look at it this way - leave the drivers there but disconnect half. It will be like those rock groups will the walls of Marshall amps behind them! In your case you'll get some passive radiator additions, but it will be hella better than having ALL those motors working!

Zilch
02-18-2008, 03:35 PM
Short the terminals of the disconnected drivers to minimize their action as PRs.... :yes:

boputnam
02-18-2008, 03:36 PM
Short the terminals of the disconnected drivers to minimize action as PRs....Dood! Great damned idea!! :applaud:

Sometimes, I just need a good Zilch... :p

mikebake
02-18-2008, 03:44 PM
That will certainly help, but you should try disconnecting some of the drivers and see if you are lacking anything (other than trouble... :p ).

Look at it this way - leave the drivers there but disconnect half. It will be like those rock groups will the walls of Marshall amps behind them! In your case you'll get some passive radiator additions, but it will be hella better than having ALL those motors working!
Case in point; I hire a band with a wall of Marshalls behind them, and they only use one or two of them; the rest are either empty cabs or just not plugged in. They get it, but people love the look apparently.............

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2008, 03:58 PM
been there, done it before. I get it.

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2008, 04:05 PM
flat wall with a portable speed bar plus back bar fridges. Lisa and I hung black velvet, fire rated stage curtains all along the back wall to help absorb some of the reflected energy last year.

Audience the whole way from the front of the stage to the back wall bar.

It gets kind of muddy in the middle of the room where the low frequency hump is.
I have a pair of 4722 (2204 - 12" with 2344 horn on 2418 drive) suspended from the ceiling in a horizontal configuration biamped halfway down the room and pointed into the low frequency hump area, to help add a little sibilance to that zone. Delayed around 30 msecs from the mains stacks. These 4722 on their own eq and amps so I can add just what is needed.


That's a low ceiling to work with (another 5 feet would be nice). Does the audience extend down the full length of the room or (say) only half way? I imagine it sounds "muddy" in the back half and it would be hard to improve that without a "specialist" rig.

What's along the rear wall - is it a plain flat wall or is there a bar or something.

Baron030
02-18-2008, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by SMKSoundPro
Yes, it is. And I felt it jumping under my feet, too.

It is 2x6's on one foot centers with three short pony walls for support. 3/4" osb t&g flooring glued and screwed on top for the decking. Carpet glued on top.

Lisa and I were just discussing putting another layer of osb decking over the old worn out carpeting and re-carpeting.

Scott, if the 2x6’s are not bridged together, then you can gain a lot of rigidity by adding some cross braces to bridge the 2x6’s together. It’s a common home building practice to bridge floor joists together. Alternatively, you could add another pony wall somewhere near the center for additional support. A second layer of OSB should help a lot. But, I am not sure that putting it over a layer of old worn out carpeting is a good idea. If it were me, I would screw the second OSB layer down directly to the first OSB layer.

Baron030 :)

mikebake
02-18-2008, 04:13 PM
It can be a challenge getting a room right; makes me appreciate that 95% of what I do, or have hired, is for outdoors...................takes more muscle, but zero room issues..................
Subwoof linked to an old JBL concert system pdf; at the end it said something like "rough but workable calculation for outdoors is to halve the crowd size a given rig can handle indoors"..............
Your rig could do quite well outdoors in full firepower mode; I've seen a similar rig really belt it out outdoors.

boputnam
02-18-2008, 09:53 PM
...I have a pair of 4722 (2204 - 12" with 2344 horn on 2418 drive) suspended from the ceiling in a horizontal configuration biamped halfway down the room and pointed into the low frequency hump area, to help add a little sibilance to that zone. Delayed around 30 msecs from the mains stacks. These 4722 on their own eq and amps so I can add just what is needed.Dood... The last thing I would think of is to add more motors to this room.

Adding "sibilance" to an area of concentrated room resonance is not the ideal solution. It would be preferable, IMO, to reduce the cause/source of the resonance. That involves either massive room re-construction (not likely) or modifying the driver compliment, crossover points, inter-cabinet balance and time alignment. In simplest terms, you need to feed the room what it can handle, reducing what it pukes back and augmenting what it begs for. I'd bypass the ceiling fills for now. :yes:

Concentrate on getting the stacks to work satisfactorily. Afterall, many guests like being able to retreat to the back of the room, to lower SPL, so they can gab without shouting - give them that space...

scott fitlin
02-21-2008, 07:10 AM
Another thing, is to fly your full range from the cieling and then you can try splittling the subs up, instead of having them all stacked and coupled, single dual cabs placed in 4 locations, instead of two massive stacks. can help eliminate the hot spots, and provide the audience with more even coverage.

I understand your doing live acts, so everything must fire in the same direction to avoid feedback issues, but, you have two locations with large 18in and 15in horsepower, too hot close to stage, not enough further back.

Years ago, my dad and uncle had a HUGE wall of bass in the center bay across from my operating podium, and it had eight horn loaded fidfteens, and four horn loaded 18,s firing directly at me, corner stacks had only two 18,s, two 15,s horn, and tweeter.

Bass is middle of room was humongous, but ends and corners were weak in comparison. Hot spots, and not balanced, even sound through out the room.

Mid 70,s trial and error. It was very intense, but after a while in the booth, it beat you up.

Years later, an engineer layed the room out, six equal stacks placed evenly around room, all stacks had equal components,two 18,s,tqwo 15,s one
1 horn and tweeter.

Much more even sounding, didnt have to push the system as hard, to drive mid/hi from corners 50ft to center of room, and less hot spot concentration actually yielded us MORE sound, but proper sound.

I don't think more tweeters are what you need, but maybe some flown full range sidefills. The correct size for your room, amply powered, but not neccesarily for max SPL, and some 10in cone mids, especially for live music, compression drivers can get overbearing, and you dont really have that far to throw.

More even coverage, and you might not have to push system as hard, and you end up with better overall sound.

Most rooms and systems, are midrange deficient, especially low mid vocal range. Too much in one area, can detract, and

Mike Caldwell
02-21-2008, 09:23 AM
Hello
If I read it correctly your running the 18 up to 800hz. Are the 18's and 15's overlaping in frequency band pass? If so that is causing a huge amount of build up. I would look at a crossover point around 100hz from the 18's into the 15 low mids. Another idea is to run the 18 subs on an aux output from your mixer. That way you can only drive the subs with what need to be in them such as bass guitar, kick drum, maybe floor tom and some keyboard synth. Theres no need to put open vocal mics, electric guitar, acoustic guitars, snare drum, ect into the subs it's just adds more mud to the mix. It does require another crossover, EQ, a limiter for a little protection. You would use a post fade aux from the board so changes you make with mix levels also stay proportional in the subs. The channels would be assigned to the main mix as normal. You would want to high pass your top cabinets at the same frequency you cross out of the 18's at...say 100hz. Also your music play back would be routed to the subs.

Over compressing the mics can help aggravate feedback, when the mic is being sang into the comp reduces the level to make up for that you push that mic harder into the mix. When the singer stops or sings softer there is less gain reduction from the comp so the so over all mic level gets higher. I would insert the comp at the sub group so like Bo said it does not drive the signer nuts singing against the comp in the monitors. A little compression about 3 - 1 to 4 - 1 ratio works well for most vocals. Gating vocal mics is kind of a losing battle and even more so on a loud stage.


Mike Caldwell

Andyoz
02-21-2008, 11:07 AM
Yep, "aux" out the 18" subs. I wish more people would do it as it works so well.

We were working on a venue that had a 4-way system. The 15" lower mid boxes were stage left and right below the mid-high cabinets. A pair of twin 18" sub boxes were located centrally under the front of the stage on an "aux" feed and it worked so well (24dB crossovers at 60Hz). Some of the best bass I have heard indoors to be honest - really helped eliminate the "bass corridor" effect you normally get with all the bass boxes stage left and right.

In your room, I reckon one of those twin 18" boxes under the stage on "aux" would be more than enough (you may not be able to fit them in though...)

clubman
02-21-2008, 01:27 PM
That is exactly how I have our rig set up, AUX1 out feeds 2 dual 18 cabs out on the dance floor. Crossover set to pass 40hz-100hz Limited by a Aphex limiter and powered with MA3600VZ. Has worked flawlessly in 3 years! Easy to pick and choose what gets subs and what doesn't.

I also coated entire ceiling (12foot) with acustical foam. It really helped "tighten" everthing up, given the room is mostly hard surfaces, tarazo floor, concrete collums ect.....

http://a840.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/6/l_2be7de2a31537c918c6297b3954e173f.jpg

SMKSoundPro
02-21-2008, 02:29 PM
I have made many changes since last week and am getting very pleased by the results!

There is so much to write, but must get to work.

Yes, the subs are running on their own aux send. Makes things easier.

Mike, I only had the subs+lows upto 800hz last friday. Mistake...yea, I know. Subs running through dbx 120 at 120hz and down. Now routed through sub mix 4 sub in. gives me a slide fader next to house L+R mains. Push up the L+R mains, then add a little submix 4 sub slide fader to fill the bottom. Sounds real nice.

Worked on microphone world yesterday. 4 handheld shure UT w/beta 58 cartridges, and 1 w/ 87. All mic channels inserted with a 166, still. All mics subgrouped in submix 3, then that group inserted into one channel of 166. I have dialed out all gates. Only using the 166 for individual comp/lim for now. We'll see tonight for karaoke for a better feel. May pull all channel inserts. We'll see.

I have 1" foam wedge on most of ceiling. Need to add more. Lots more.

All walls covered in black velvet drapes, at least as a valance. I have tried to soften things. More to do there.

Very rarely any live bands, anymore. Mostly singers and soundtrack stuff, or dance music.

I really know that when I came home last night at 11, the place was sounding real nice! Nice and warm, very inviting. My best friend and business partner came over last night , and he and I walked through all of the mics and settings.

Bo, I pulled the 4722's from the ceiling in the middle of the room. I just don't see a need for it, anymore. The main rig carries nicely, and will give the back bar area of the room the chance to talk and socialize. If they NEED to hear something, I can turn the horns up a touch and get their attention.

Also, the sub drive routes though a 166 channel for limiting.

I've got to tell you guys, I am really getting the bead on this. It is really coming together and I am getting used to it. I will take a picture, or two, and post when possible. The room has the nice hump and bump when nessessary, and also when mixed with a live vocalist, is able to cut through the mix.

It has been my experience to make things overly complicated. But...

This was the quote if the day on my MiniMinder:


"Making the simple complicated is commonplace;




Making the complicated simple,




awesomely simple,


that's creativity."

Charles Mingus.



With that I leave you all to go to work at my nightclub gig and be creative!

Scotty.

SMKSoundPro
02-21-2008, 02:38 PM
Also, I want to make sure we keep this pro sound rig discussion thread about the JBL parts installed and not drift off-topic. We are Lansing heritage forum and not prosound forum.

It would be neat if there was forum here for prosound rigs. I thought under the "DIY" forum was appropriate because of JBL vast empire of real pro sound reinforcement rigs all over the world.

I don't see many questions or postings about Vertec issues.

I see where we have audiophile hi-fi postings, but what about us low-fi guys?

SO... what JBL component speaker cabinet projects have YOU built today? Tell us all about them. Include pictures, graphs, charts, reponse curves. Get that tablesaw out and start hacking up some virgin slowgrowth plywood or mdf and get to it! Its okay, I still do just fine with nine fingers!

scotty.

Andyoz
02-21-2008, 02:51 PM
I have 1" foam wedge on most of ceiling. Need to add more. Lots more.

All walls covered in black velvet drapes, at least as a valance. I have tried to soften things. More to do there.

I wouldn't go too overboard treating the ceiling - the room could sound a bit lifeless if you have too much absorption in that plane (especially with your low ceiling height).

Is there any way you can hide away 2" foam at high level on the walls - say the top 1200mm of the walls? The 1" foam on the ceiling probably only provides useful absorption from about 400Hz and above. Your drapes, etc. will also be providing absorption at similar frequencies so adding more 1" may give the room an uneven response.

The 2" foam goes down to about 200Hz and that really helps tighten up the lower midrange. The 200-500Hz frequency range is critical IMO.

boputnam
02-21-2008, 02:54 PM
Also, I want to make sure we keep this pro sound rig discussion thread about the JBL parts installed and not drift off-topic. We are Lansing heritage forum and not prosound forum.

It would be neat if there was forum here for prosound rigs. I thought under the "DIY" forum was appropriate because of JBL vast empire of real pro sound reinforcement rigs all over the world.

I don't see many questions or postings about Vertec issues.Anything sound is OK here - JBL or otherwise. Don long-ago recognized that things making sound extend beyond JBL, so has accomodated that. It all fits, here.

We do pro-sound in the General area - have not seen enough traffic to parse out a separate thingy, but always considering change. There are only about a half-dozen of us roaddogs here keeping each other company...

The improving control of your system sound good. I've been wondering for a few days - could you/would you post the crossover points of the entire system? IMO, 120Hz is higher than where I'd take them subs.

I'd still rather you were using a higher HPF in the mics, than a gate or C/L. But, in times of battle... :duel:

boputnam
02-21-2008, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't go too overboard treating the ceiling - the room could sound a bit lifeless if you have too much absorption in that plane (especially with your low ceiling height).

Is there any way you can hide away 2" foam at high level on the walls - say the top 1200mm of the walls? The 1" foam on the ceiling probably only provides useful absorption from about 400Hz and above. Your drapes, etc. will also be providing absorption at similar frequencies so adding more 1" may give the room an uneven response.

The 2" foam goes down to about 200Hz and that really helps tighten up the lower midrange. The 200-500Hz frequency range is critical IMO.And, as suggested by subwoof, focus on the Live end of the room. Make the Live End the Dead End...

Mike Caldwell
02-22-2008, 11:30 AM
It sounds like you are feeding the subs from a group output and not and aux output. The concept can still work that way to isolate was is needed in the subs and getting sent to the subs by the way you assign the groups at the channel faders, though a little less intuitive and it uses up a sub group. Doing it that way be sure to assign that sub group feeding the subs from the main mix because as you would raise and lower the subs sub group fader any inputs routed to the the main mix or to another sub group would raise in main mix from the addition of an extra sub group feed into the main mix. With the subgroup method you don't have any real way to adjust the relative sub level for channels needing to be sent to the subs, with the aux method you can set the sub ratio to the main mix very easy.

I just looked up the DBX 120 it does not appear to have a high pass filter in it and the crossover slope is 12db per octave. I would try the 80hz crossover selection that is has instead of the 120hz. Getting a high pass filter in line would be a good idea. What is the cut off frequency of the sub cabinet design you used.

Mike Caldwell

Baron030
02-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by SMKSoundPro
I see where we have audiophile hi-fi postings, but what about us low-fi guys?

Hi Scotty

I wouldn’t call you Low-Fi guy. No way!
Your new PA Rig is very much a Hi-Fi system.
Admittedly, it’s a “Tim the 'Tool Man' Taylor” kind of Hi-Fi system, all pumped up with “more power”.
But, it’s still a Hi-Fi system.
And it’s showcasing some fine JBL components.
So, don’t be putting yourself down with that Low-Fi stuff.

Even though this is not a pro-sound forum, as an amateur audiophile, I enjoy reading these pro-sound postings.
You’re hitting on issues that are not usually being covered by the other forum threads.

And if we look back at on the early JBL and Altec Lansing systems, the only difference between “Pro-Sound” and “Home Hi-Fi Audio” was just a fine furniture finish.

Baron030 :)

scott fitlin
02-23-2008, 10:22 PM
Scott, how many bullet tweeters do you have?

And, how many active crossovers do you have?

I'm thin king, you might do well having the full range, 15,s 12, and horns on 1 crossover, then, having another 3 way stereo xover to tun your bulltes and subs, this would allow you to run your full range tuned independently of subs and tweeters, and allow you to run your full range slightly hotter than your tweets and subs, as well as allow the 15,s to go down lower, with a DSP xover, you can set a roll off for the 15,s, 30hz, 35hz, 40hz, etc!

This is what I do, and the main full range bass produces good musical bass for the peoples ears, and then the subs and tweeters just augment the extremes.

Just a thought!

SMKSoundPro
02-24-2008, 11:51 PM
Hi guys! Thank for the replies.
I will attempt to explain the patching.

1. All microphone inputs have 166 channel comp/lim inserted in their signal path for individual gate/limit.

2. All mics assigned to subgroup 3.

3. Subgroup 3 has one channel of a 166 comp/limiter inserted to limit all mics as a group, then assigned to L+R Mains.

3.1 All 166's can be bypassed, or insert cables pulled, easilly of needed.
4. All RCA line level stereo stuff goes into Pioneer CMX3000 disco mixer. (cd player, cd+g player, ipod, laptop)

5. Pioneer mixer input into channels 11 + 12, panned L & R, respectively.

6. 11 & 12, aka: Program, assigned to subgroup 1&2, panned L & R.

7. Program subgroup inserted to dbx 120 to add subharmonic synthysis to the program material, and also the crossover function used, so that newly synthesized bass comes back into the subgroup at 120hz and down.

8. Program subgroup assigned to L+R Mains. This gives a good rumble when wanted.

9. Subwoofer output of the dbx 120 is a single 1/4"rts that is plugged into the sub in on subgroup 4.

10. The xlr direct output of subgroup 4 goes directly to two Crownmacro 2400s to drive all 8 -18's.

In this manner, I have found that the synthesized bass does not interfere with any vocals of the VOX group.

I also have the Mains going to a dbx 166 in stereo mode for overall final drive limiting, then into a dbx 2215 2/3 octave eq, then into the dbx 234xl 3-way crossover. This is then fed to two crown 24x6 amps and a 600 for the bullets.

I know this a real bastard 4 way rig, and really like Zilch's description of a 3.1 sound system. The 4750 boxes are active, with no passive crossover elements, except for a 40uf cap for the 2445, and 6uf for the bullet.

Lisa and I discussed, after reading your comments, whether I should change this to a true 4-way speaker system, or stay 3.1.

To go true 4-way, I need a crossover or DSP to do it. Money real tight. Bo sent me a link for an XTa. I believe the Driverack 4800 is a little pricey, also. (I am not considering a behr product. I have worked too hard on this rig, unless I absolutely have to)

Or... install a passive network between the 2445 and bullets, like JBL does, and then run the rig as a 3-way active using the dbx driverack 260 I have on the shelf that I bought last year, with the calibrated mic for the RTA function. I have an older compaq presario with the proper serial port connection ready to go.

I know this is lengthy, because I am trying to give you all of the information.

So... Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

Signed,
scotty - low-fi stereo dude.

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 12:11 AM
Also, Friday's night show went VERY well!

Lots of go-go juice in the rig, Room was a swimming in good vibrations.

A real bonky, bonky sound at 160hz. Four 2225's on each side of the stage will do that in our ballroom.

I also had all of the sub woofers humpin and bumpin, and all of the control on the desk to manage it all.

Drive the music to the mains for the volume of the room, then add as much subs as you think you need for balance.

If needed, then pull the mains back a little. The room had a rumble that was pretty good, without pinning the patrons to the back wall.

I wish it were just a giant jukebox, instead of a amateur night "Idol" style of rig. Then I could make it sound so righteous! Plenty of queer bar boom-boom. I perceive Scott Fitlin's bumper car ride is all music, all day. Must be nice!

"And if we look back at on the early JBL and Altec Lansing systems, the only difference between “Pro-Sound” and “Home Hi-Fi Audio” was just a fine furniture finish." - Baron030

I have a pair of 4311wx that are utility gray. They are exactly the same as a 4311 with a walnut veneer. I had quite a few non veneered theatre cabs in my life.

"What is the cut off frequency of the sub cabinet design you used?" -
Mike Caldwell

Whatever the frequency is of the SR4719a, as that was the subwoofer boxes I copied. see link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-Series/SR4719A.pdf

Here is the link to the 4770 box I basically copied. see link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Sound%20Power%204700%20Series/4770A.pdf

Here is the linlk to the SR4733a box I also used for the cabinet dimensions. see link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-Series/SR4733A.pdf

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 12:37 AM
Scott, if the 2x6’s are not bridged together, then you can gain a lot of rigidity by adding some cross braces to bridge the 2x6’s together. It’s a common home building practice to bridge floor joists together. Alternatively, you could add another pony wall somewhere near the center for additional support. A second layer of OSB should help a lot. But, I am not sure that putting it over a layer of old worn out carpeting is a good idea. If it were me, I would screw the second OSB layer down directly to the first OSB layer.

Baron030 :)

(Lisa and I have a quite a bit of experience in home-building. Lots)

Stage is: from top view, 6' x 13'. 2' high. Pony walls on each end holding it up made of 2x4 material shot with 16d nails. Also various support legs underneath. 2x6's all brigded with 2x6 blocking on 12" centers running the full length. All 2x6 floor structure shot with 16d nail gun, then deck screwed for added help.

I DO like the idea of ripping off the 3/4" osb T&G subflooring with the carpet glued on with contact cement, and ... taking Lisa's dad's portable cement mixer that I have here, and filling in the joist bays with concrete! Drive some deck screws into the floor joists to give the cement something to grip to. Man, what a solid vibration free stage! Then screed off the tops of the joists. let dry. apply new T&G sub floor ply. glued and screwed. new carpeting.

Lisa said, how will move it? answer: who cares! Let the next owners figure that out!

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 12:51 AM
I wouldn't go too overboard treating the ceiling - the room could sound a bit lifeless if you have too much absorption in that plane (especially with your low ceiling height).

Is there any way you can hide away 2" foam at high level on the walls - say the top 1200mm of the walls? The 1" foam on the ceiling probably only provides useful absorption from about 400Hz and above. Your drapes, etc. will also be providing absorption at similar frequencies so adding more 1" may give the room an uneven response.

The 2" foam goes down to about 200Hz and that really helps tighten up the lower midrange. The 200-500Hz frequency range is critical IMO.

I have room behind the curtains to apply 1" foam all around the perimeter of the room. The curtains hang down between 3'-4'.

The curtains on the back wall of the stage have no foam applied behind them, nor is there foam applied to the wall behind the speaker stacks.

May be a good place to start. I have room there for 3-4" foam if recommended.

ANY help or advice in room dampening treatment is always welcome!!!
we have done our best, and recognize acoustics is quite the science!

Baron030
02-25-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi Scott,

I just wanted to remind you that concrete weights 148 lbs per cubic foot.
So, filling the 2x6 joist bays with cement is going to weigh in at about 5,000 lbs.
Since, concrete does not have a lot of tensile strength.
Then this entire weight is going to be supported by the 2x6 joists alone.
One alternative might be strip off the carpeting and then nail down some 2x2 sleepers over the T&G sub-floor and then fill the spaces with cement.
This would only be about 1,400 lbs of cement and it would not put such a heavy load on the 2x6 joists.
In any case, you may want to beef up the bracing below the joists to handle the additional load of any cement.

I did not realize that you were not running a true 4-way system.
Since, have no idea what a 3.1 system would sound like?
I can’t really offer any advice or opinions on tweaking such a system.
But, from the stand point of getting the cleanest possible sound, I would still recommend switching over to a true 4-way system as soon as your budget allows it.

Since, you already have a dbx driverack 260 sitting on the shelf then maybe switching over to an active 3 way system and installing a passive network between the 2445 and bullets makes good sense for now.
Especially, considering how cheap a bunch of 3105 networks would be to make.

Baron030 :)

boputnam
02-25-2008, 02:45 PM
I will attempt to explain the patching.OK...

(I had a detailed commentary of the signal path, but then realized I truly don't get it. This type of DJ rig is not my experience base and I should steer clear. There is too much in here that makes me... :blink: )

However...


To go true 4-way, I need a ... DSP to do it. Not so. You can do pretty damned good with simple active crossovers between each band pass. So, you'd need three, 2-channel active crossovers, or some combo of two 3-way crossovers. Either way, as Mike suggested, you need to get some steeper slopes in there, and then you can play with the phasing (via reversing wiring connections) to improve the coherence of the overall wave form.

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 03:36 PM
If I had another dbx 234xl, then I would have two mono 4-way crossovers. Price is about 179-$200.

Might be a very do-able alternative than a 4-way DSP.

Otherwise, I have a Rane SAC-22b. It is a 2-way xlr in/out active crossover that could be used. I would insert the L+R signal into this xover first, crossing the subs out, then the "high" output would drive the input of the 234 - 3-way.

My goal for crossover points are:

- subs - (to 100hz, 4x18's)
- lowmids - (to 800hz, 4x15's)
- himids - (to 7k, 2x2445/2385)
- UHF (2xbulletw/2405 dia)

(per side)

I don't know if the slopes are steep enough, but will be a starting point.

Benefit: This will keep the VOX grp from being injected into the 120 synthesized bass waveform, which is important. Nothing worse than a dragqueen singing live and sounding like "monster truck guy!"
(edit: Looking like one in a dress and wig, sure...sounding like a monster truck guy at the same time...priceless!)

This is where I will start today and listen to the results.

I will take picures of the booth to give a better idea of what I am writing about. I am sure all of you don't really care, but in the attempt of being a community of ike minded indiduals, will share what little knowledge I have in this arena.

Scott.

ps. Lisa just reminded me that there was a time when we didn't talk about JBL's ad infinitum! Sorry dear!

pps. Thank you, ALL, for your continued support and advice.

boputnam
02-25-2008, 04:18 PM
If I had another dbx 234xl, then I would have two mono 4-way crossovers. Price is about 179-$200.

Might be a very do-able alternative than a 4-way DSP. Very do-able. Very old-school! :yes:


My goal for crossover points are:

- subs - (to 100hz, 4x18's)
- lowmids - (to 800hz, 4x15's)
- himids - (to 7k, 2x2445/2385)
- UHF (2xbulletw/2405 dia)

(per side)

I don't know if the slopes are steep enough, but will be a starting point.(I hope you don't mind me re-formatting this in your post - makes it easier to read and think about...)

I'd consider taking down the HPF of the subs, to maybe 80Hz? And, I'd very much strive to get a -24dB filter between these and the LoMids. And, AND, this is a critical area (for your system in that room) to check for appropriate phasing. As example...

Just Saturday, I was working a large hall and was pre-warned by everyone about the boominess and struggle with LF. Many shows suck.

Smaart told me:
- sub gain was +12dB over the Mains. I took that down, and EQ'd the sub band pass.
- there was a whopping trough just above the crossover point - something like -30dB. :blink: I convinced the HE to change the polarity on the subs. Trough almost completely disappeared. Gave me a much better-behaved response curve to sort out. I need to whack a few moles in a few places, but not bad at all.
- I moved the Smaart mic to stage, sent it down the snake and intercepted into my USBPre, re-set the time-delay and Smaarted the stage. Activated the HPF on the wedge GEQ's (why-oh-why someone would want full range wedges on a hollow stage in a boomy room is not clear to me...); fixed the response. Then walked the stage making sure the right "bite" was in the mix for the artists.
- re-EQ the house with the weges on, using both Pink and recorded stuff.

No problems, all night. The LF was tight as could be in that room. Having a proper balance between subs and Mains enabled me to sustain a good gain structure all night, vox always easily on-top. Having reduced the LF-loading in the room, the artists could hear far better than previously in that hall.

Wresting control of your LF from the room by...
- avoiding excessive LF-loading
- getting good balance between LF and "mains" gains
- setting proper phasing between the LF and "mains"

...gives incredibly superior results.

Baron030
02-25-2008, 04:44 PM
Ok, let me get this credit card joke straight.

Cover charge to see a drag queen, X dollars.

Beer goggles to make a drag queen look beautiful, X dollars.

Listening to a drag queen singing through a DBX 120 Bass Synthesizer…Priceless! :rotfl:

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 07:57 PM
You guys are TOO funny!!!

I just went next door to the Mammoth Music Store because there were 2 EV raw frame 12 & 15" cone drivers sitting here in our parking lot, just on the ground. Knew they were'nt mine. Who uses EV?

Bottom line: They had 2 Peavey V4X crossovers in their rack of used stuff. I gave them $100 a piece for them. Just took a pic for you to see,

Will start installing them, and make a new drive squid from the booth to the amp racks.

I am back into a true 4-way rig!!! on the cheap!

here is the link to the pdf manual file. Please tell me what you think.
http://www.peavey.com/support%5Csearchmanuals%5Clist%5Cv4xmark3.cfm

scotty.

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 08:02 PM
Ok, let me get this credit card joke straight.

Cover charge to see a drag queen "perform," (After 8pm Friday) $4 dollars.

Beer goggles to make a drag queen look beautiful, (Alaskan Amber) $6 dollars.

Listening to a drag queen singing live through a DBX 120 Bass Synthesizer…( through 8-18's) ....Priceless! :rotfl:

God, I love my job!!!

Mike Caldwell
02-25-2008, 09:23 PM
The Peavey will work, it is an older unit with 18db slopes so playing with the polarity of the speaker /drivers between band passes could be a big help in smoothing things out. I would still set the system up so any vocal mic channels can be routed completely out of the sub cabinets. To do that you will need the pair of crossovers you just bought on the main out puts of the board and set up as your were running and four way system with them but you will not connect any thing to the sub/low outputs. For the subs you would the DBX crossover being fed from an aux out or at least a isolated subgroup that is not assigned to the main mix output. On that crossover for the sub you would set it for a 100hz crossover or maybe a little a less and just use the low freq output to feed the amps for the subs.

Mike Caldwell

boputnam
02-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Who uses EV?...Many do; more should. Their QRx (http://www.electrovoice.com/productfamilies/49.html) line is truly a wonderful cabinet, right "out of the shipping box". They require minimal EQ. IMO, that was their reason for the "QRx" - a medical scrip (Rx) for EQ, if you will. The cabinets are well designed, minimal rear-projection resonance and good smooth response.


I am back into a true 4-way rig!!! on the cheap!Cool. You are about to approach gaining real control over this system. Good move, Scotty.

I'll look over the manual and see what I see. :)

boputnam
02-25-2008, 09:34 PM
The Peavey will work, it is an older unit with 18db slopes so playing with the polarity of the speaker /drivers between band passes could be a big help in smoothing things out.

I would still set the system up so any vocal mic channels can be routed completely out of the sub cabinets. To do that you will need the pair of crossovers you just bought on the main out puts of the board and set up as your were running and four way system with them but you will not connect any thing to the sub/low outputs. :hmm:

For the subs you would the DBX crossover being fed from an aux out or at least a isolated subgroup that is not assigned to the main mix output. On that crossover for the sub you would set it for a 100hz crossover or maybe a little a less and just use the low freq output to feed the amps for the subs.Golly, Mickey!! That there is pretty damned thoughtful.

Going that route will inimize LF - mic problems, at least as good as an adjustable HPF on the individual strips (which he does not have... :( ).

The last bit about the subs NOT being routed back through the L/R buss is exactly where I'm at. His routing of that dbx120 subharmonic sythesizer thingy through inserts back into the Groups and L/R was totally outside my experience and comprehension. In my world, LF is the toughest thing to control - it readily couples with the room and building structure = LF-loading ( :banghead: ). It's harmonics overload the entire frequency response, muddying the wedge mixes (artists cannot hear and so turn up their volume) and blurs the entire house. Puking damned awful. Any two-bit soundguy can do that. I wanna do better at lower SPL...

The LAST thing I would do is emulate more LF and route it back through the console. :scold:

But, that is DJ world, I suppose. :dont-know

Mike Caldwell
02-25-2008, 09:51 PM
Give me a handfull of cables and equipment and I can make something come out of the speakers!!:p

I would get the system up and running minus the DBX 120, with the subs on a post fade aux or an isolated sub group and see how that goes.


I must have missed it early on but what board are you using.
I just found it! Ramsa 4412

Mike Caldwell

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 10:20 PM
Okay. Just got done installing these two 4-way xovers. Had to change the xlr's to pin 3 hot(as per the manual). Xlr female to 1/4"rts at amp inputs.

I have pulled the dbx120 completely out. Moved things around in the rack. Reinstalled the 120 and have inserted in subgroup 1 & 2 (L&R)

All disco mix program still routed to subgroup 1&2.

I was going to try this rig as a true 4-way, with no seperate sub drive knob. But, after reading Mike's comments, am reconsidering.

I understand that I can run the 15's in the top boxes down, with his comment, and have a HPF around 200hz(?), or wherever. I have a couple of other 2-way xovers here that I can use to bandwidth limit the subs. I think I understand what Mike is saying.

He wants to keep any VOX out of the 18 subs. I get it.

I am going to fire this thing right now in 4-way mode as that is what I am ready to do.

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 10:25 PM
Golly, Mickey!! That there is pretty damned thoughtful.

Going that route will inimize LF - mic problems, at least as good as an adjustable HPF on the individual strips (which he does not have... :( ).


I can insert a 1/3 octave EQ in the VOX (mic) subgroup and make a slope from 100hz and down at a fairly steep slope.

With that, in your opinion, help?

Zilch
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
Gypcrete, Homasote, Acoustimat -- there are ways to deaden that stage short of pouring it full of concrete.

Look to construction sound control technologies.... :yes:

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
To do that you will need the pair of crossovers you just bought on the main out puts of the board and set up as your were running and four way system with them but you will not connect any thing to the sub/low outputs. For the subs you would the DBX crossover being fed from an aux out or at least a isolated subgroup that is not assigned to the main mix output. On that crossover for the sub you would set it for a 100hz crossover or maybe a little a less and just use the low freq output to feed the amps for the subs.
Mike Caldwell


I get it. I will try 4-way from the V4X and hear; then try this way.

SMKSoundPro
02-25-2008, 10:40 PM
Hi Zilch,

Yes, I agree. I was thinking gypcrete on my way to work.

I also like the idea of 2x2 around the perimeter of the top decking surface, with one more 2x2 in the middle of the field, then laying in some stucco mesh screen, and pour the cement in. Let harden. Lay new 3/4" T&G ply on top using screws and glue. Screw all around the perimeter and into the center line.
New carpet, rope lighting... done!

I did not take into full account, yet, the added weight of cement in a large, deep form. (2x6 cavity, 10.5" wide by 156" multiplied by 5 cavities) = 9009 cu. in. X 5= 45045 cu. in /1728 = 26.06 cu. ft. of cement. Times 128/cu.ft.=3336.66 pounds of stage dampening. wow!

Zilch
02-26-2008, 12:53 AM
Think of it as a floor with an apartment for really short people downstairs. :D

Talk to Gypcrete. 1.5" may do it.

What are the techniques used in multi-family construction of floors to minimize sound transmission, and what might be put in the space below to keep it from resonating? R-40 fiberglass, maybe? :dont-know

Mike Caldwell
02-26-2008, 06:55 AM
I can insert a 1/3 octave EQ in the VOX (mic) subgroup and make a slope from 100hz and down at a fairly steep slope.

With that, in your opinion, help?

That is not the best idea, it only creates a shelving filter and does little to remove sub low signal such as stage resonance, handling noise of the mics, ect. Depending on the EQ it does all kind of strange phase things to the signal, better EQ do less phase shifting but it's still there.



Mike Caldwell

Fred Sanford
02-26-2008, 09:22 AM
Very do-able. Very old-school! :yes:

(I hope you don't mind me re-formatting this in your post - makes it easier to read and think about...)

I'd consider taking down the HPF of the subs, to maybe 80Hz? And, I'd very much strive to get a -24dB filter between these and the LoMids. And, AND, this is a critical area (for your system in that room) to check for appropriate phasing. As example...

Just Saturday, I was working a large hall and was pre-warned by everyone about the boominess and struggle with LF. Many shows suck.

Smaart told me:
- sub gain was +12dB over the Mains. I took that down, and EQ'd the sub band pass.
- there was a whopping trough just above the crossover point - something like -30dB. :blink: I convinced the HE to change the polarity on the subs. Trough almost completely disappeared. Gave me a much better-behaved response curve to sort out. I need to whack a few moles in a few places, but not bad at all.
- I moved the Smaart mic to stage, sent it down the snake and intercepted into my USBPre, re-set the time-delay and Smaarted the stage. Activated the HPF on the wedge GEQ's (why-oh-why someone would want full range wedges on a hollow stage in a boomy room is not clear to me...); fixed the response. Then walked the stage making sure the right "bite" was in the mix for the artists.
- re-EQ the house with the weges on, using both Pink and recorded stuff.

No problems, all night. The LF was tight as could be in that room. Having a proper balance between subs and Mains enabled me to sustain a good gain structure all night, vox always easily on-top. Having reduced the LF-loading in the room, the artists could hear far better than previously in that hall.

Wresting control of your LF from the room by...
- avoiding excessive LF-loading
- getting good balance between LF and "mains" gains
- setting proper phasing between the LF and "mains"

...gives incredibly superior results.

Can I just say thanks to Bo and all others for posts like this? Whether I'm ever going to face this exact situation isn't really the point, it's the ongoing education in resourcefulness that's key to me. Assess the problem and its causes, look at your tools/experience/options, take educated steps to test & note results. Wonderful stuff, and very generous to take the time and type it all out. Helps Scott and enlightens enyone else that cares to digest it.

Hey, thanks! :applaud:

je

boputnam
02-26-2008, 01:48 PM
That is not the best idea, it only creates a shelving filter and does little to remove sub low signal such as stage resonance, handling noise of the mics, ect. Depending on the EQ it does all kind of strange phase things to the signal, better EQ (impart) less phase shifting but it's still there.Mike, that is exactly what I was going to reply. Far too often folk try and use an EQ in-place of a crossover or HPF/LPF, and it just ain't right. Bad approach yields bad results.

I really think routing the dbx120 in the manner you've described is best. Partly because it is closest to conventional ways "we" do things, and mostly because it gives much better control over what the dbx120 is doing. Me? I'd unplug it, for good - those quad 18's and 15's are doing all the "subharmonic LF synthesis" I want to face! :duel:


Hey, thanks! :applaud:Pleasure - it's nice to have something I can contribute to! :p My hope is we can get someone up there to help-out, and collect some quality measurements so Scotty get's a visual of what is going on, adding to what his ears are telling him.

SMKSoundPro
02-26-2008, 07:15 PM
I have installed the second 2-way crossover as Mike suggested.

Wow, what a difference! This is basically the same was I patched on Friday. I was able to use the crossover in the 120, but now with the lows out of the 4-way xover, and I'm using Aux 4 to drive a Rane SAC22b and am using the "lows" out to drive the sub amps.

I have the Peavey V4X rolled down 100hz as a cutoff, and I have the Rane rolled upto 120hz for the subs...for now.

I have the 120 synth on groups 3&4, now. I can punch them out, and go back to assigning the program channels(11&12) straight to the L&R main out, if desired.

I picked up a wireless 58 and it sounded fine. A little tweaking here and there. Then I picked up a wireless 87 and wow what a difference! No feedback problems. Nothing like the 58s.

Upstairs fixing the Sony receiver for the main bar.

Thanks all for the help!!

boputnam
02-26-2008, 07:38 PM
I picked up a wireless 58 and it sounded fine. A little tweaking here and there. Then I picked up a wireless 87 and wow what a difference! No feedback problems. Nothing like the 58s.Uh, there is nothing like a 57!! :p

I am a big non-fan of the 87. I hate working that mic. And, that said, their entire line has a characteristic and broad presence peak from 3kHz thru 7kHz (+). I loath it - tired of fighting it. It masks poor gain structure.

I've gone all Heil (http://www.heilsound.com/pro/products/) - the PR20's are a huge upgrade at same price; the Heil PR35 is even "more better". These are large diaphragm, neutral mics which give you a chance of natural reproduction of the voice. They are amazing. Keep in mind for the future as the budget frees up, but certainly consider the PR20 the next time you think "I need a 58..." ;)

Anyway, for now let's see if we can get the gates off them vox inserts...

Image Top or Left: "58"
Image Bottom or Right: "Heil PR35"

You choose...

.

scott fitlin
02-26-2008, 07:43 PM
Active Crossovers are SO IMPORTANT. Guys tell me nah, the amp, the whatever, xover doesnt really matter. Crossovers are as important as speakers/drivers.

Front end is so audible, you need great mixer/pre, great EQ, great xovers, great amps, and ther best speaker/drivers you can afford or like. etc!

Crossovers, they are THAT influential over entire sound, IMO!

Glad its coming your way, :applaud:

boputnam
02-26-2008, 07:47 PM
I have installed the second 2-way crossover as Mike suggested. Cool.

Now, you need to do some really careful listening, alone, and challenge the polarities/phasing you have.

- use only one stack.
- use Pink Noise that you know is good, and robust. Many sources vary.
- listen to the overall response, and trial swapping connections.
1) reverse the connections to the subs
2) reverse the connections to the MidHi
3) repeat, and scramble.

There are likely monstrous and detracting phase issues in your system. "Cleaning up" the area of crossover at each point can lead to a very pleasant result, but without measurement software/hardware, your aural impressions are all-important. BE VERY CRITICAL. Care not about what you think; care only about what you are really hearing.

After Pink Noise, put on some Dave Grusin - Migrations. It will help you know if you are lying to yourself...

boputnam
02-26-2008, 07:52 PM
Active Crossovers are SO IMPORTANT. Guys tell me nah, the amp, the whatever, xover doesnt really matter. That is just ignorant - not malice, just uninformed and inexperienced. I would hate to be subjected to their systems.


Crossovers are as important as speakers/drivers.Without the former, you will never appreciate the latter.


Front end is so audible, you need great mixer/pre, great EQ, great xovers, great amps, and ther best speaker/drivers you can afford or like. etc!

Crossovers, they are THAT influential over entire sound, IMO!Uh, dood...

You are slowly and deliberately removing inter-driver (read: band pass) interferences. This is "Systems Engineering", pard'. It is tough, but rewarding. You are removing and/or limiting opportuniities for different band passes to be in competition with each other. You are opening-up the frequency response of the system, allowing each element to perform more closely to it's specs, increasing system efficiency.

If you like it now, just wait. There is a ton left to do.

scott fitlin
02-26-2008, 08:03 PM
That is just ignorant - not malice, just uninformed and inexperienced. I would hate to be subjected to their systems.

Without the former, you will never appreciate the latter.

Uh, dood...

You are slowly and deliberately removing inter-driver (read: band pass) interferences. This is "Systems Engineering", pard'. It is tough, but rewarding. You are removing and/or limiting opportuniities for different band passes to be in competition with each other. You are opening-up the frequency response of the system, allowing each element to perform more closely to it's specs, increasing system efficiency.

If you like it now, just wait. There is a ton left to do.Agree on all points. I have been into xovers and using the right ones, with setup for the particular apps you are doing for many years now.

:bouncy:

Mike Caldwell
02-26-2008, 09:43 PM
Good to hear you like the subs on an aux set up. I would eliminate the frequency overlap between the subs and the 15's. For your DBX 120 to really be able to do it's thing it would need to be in the signal path of you sub drive not in the groups. As Bo said earlier with four double 18 cabinets and now having the ability to independently control them I would cast it aside and focus on fine tuning the system.

Now for quick microphone rant!
The SM58 is such a relic of a vocal mic. So many times people will request them because it's the only mic model they know, there afraid to try anything else, they have never truly listened and compared one to a better mic. It's funny that a musician will spend or throw away hundreds to thousands in the quest for that perfect guitar sound but will sing through a $90 vocal mic and never try another one.

For the record my favorite dynamic vocal mics would be the Audix OM6 and OM7 for condenser the AKG C535.
I would like to try a PR35 though.

As for the signal path components and importance/sound. I have always felt that it is a cumulative effect of each piece in the chain. The key links being the crossover and the EQ.


Mike Caldwell

SMKSoundPro
02-27-2008, 12:40 AM
Dear Mike,

I agree wiith the 58 assessment. I have 8 channels of shure UT wireless. Seven of them with 58's, and one with an 87.

On Thursday night scare-e-oke, I setup two EV 357's. I also have 757's and 767's, and beta 57's. I figure if they are going to drop it or swing it around by it's cord like a Diamond Dave singing "Jump," give them something that won't break my bank!

I donot have any Audax, Senn's, AKG, AudTechnica, or others. I would love to have some better wireless handhelds, and just a couple, 2 or 3, would suffice. I see a lot of bid action on Shure UA& UB. One of the sound guys is into Sabine. I used his once. It was okay.

Everything working well! Time to go home!

thanks!!!!
I will move the 120 into the sub path. I am running sub path from aux 4, into the left channel input of the SAC22, and out to the 2 2400 sub amps.

SMKSoundPro
02-27-2008, 01:00 AM
pics.

SMKSoundPro
02-27-2008, 01:05 AM
This is the RTA I have. It is a Sound Technology RTA 4000.

I have the manual, but not their mic. I only have a dbx driverack calibratin mic. I have plugged it in and seen a reponse to my voice. I just don't have any experience with this one. My friend, cheif engineer from channel 2 gave it to me. Apparantly, they don't need it anymore.

Its more of an RTA than I am used to. More settings.

Even a section in the manual about running your PA through it during the gig.

I will try to get it downstairs and start pinking and tuning.

Thank you. Goodnight.

boputnam
02-27-2008, 08:15 AM
I will try to get it downstairs and start pinking and tuning.What is your planned method...?

You should use only one stack at a time. Disconnect the other.

You should look at one band-pass at a time. Run steady Pink Noise methodically through each band pass and look at the response. You should be able to confirm the approximate position of all crossover points and see the relative slopes at each end of each band pass.

But first...

- Since you cannot do a FFT with an RTA, you should run Pink Noise directly into the RTA - line-level input - to know what it looks like. At proper gain, it looks like a damned flat-topped brickwall mid-way up across the entire RTA. If need-be, take a picture of what that looks like - you need to remember that image and emulate that brickwall in your EQ'ing the system. Now...

- Path the Pink Noise through the system. Set all strip EQ to unity, and no inserts, and fewest Group/Aux assignments possible. Straight into the Mix buss is best. Set up your measurement mic in a representative spot in the room (NOT IN THE IMPRESSIVE LOOKING BUT SUCKY SOUNDBOOTH - THAT IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE).

- Start with the Mid's - these will behave the best and give you a learners experience. Note the crossover points. They will be the approx. -3 to -6dB down point at the end of each band pass (or close to it). Do they look right? If so, now apply deft EQ to the band pass response. Strive to do Cutting only. If your response is a like a toothy Jack-O-Lantern mouth, boost the gain to raise the overall level, and then notch the areas of peaks to achieve a flat response across the entire band pass.

- Repeat for each band pass, separately.

- Re-check all work, one band pass at a time.

- Now, turn on the entire stack - but still only one stack. Measure response of entire curve and compare with the image of Pink Noise input directly into the RTA. Are they close? If so, play some excellently recorded Jazz - listen to the tonality and representativeness of each instrument's reproduction. Is it good? If so...

- Copy all settings to the other stack. Check everything.

- Play the system. Is it good? If so...

- You have now achieved some pretty good control over the system's response and to the room's reaction to the system. Now you can tweak the EQ and sub balance to your preference. But I would urge do nothing.

Listen and learn what "flat" sounds like and how the room responds to it. With "flat", you will likely achieve better gain structure sooner and more efficiently/effectively, and thereby produce more uniformly impressive/acceptible shows.

Make sense?

louped garouv
02-27-2008, 09:51 AM
great thread...

thanks for the learning opportunity

:)

SMKSoundPro
02-27-2008, 12:59 PM
You should use only one stack at a time.

Make sense?



Yes!

boputnam
02-27-2008, 02:52 PM
"SUCKY SOUNDBOOTH" ?

gee, thanks.As in, bass trap.

Look, I know you worked hella on it and it looks flashy, but I'd prefer bringing in a chainsaw and lose the surrounding walls and get into the room I'm working...

:dont-know

If it was me working there, I'd be standing in-front of the soundbooth and mixing over my shoulder. Been there, done that...

SMKSoundPro
02-27-2008, 02:55 PM
agreed.

When doing the live theatre production shows for a 6 week run, I setup a seperate mixing location towards the back of the room, looking straight up the center aisle.

Mix from there, and drop a drive snake to the booth.

It works.

mikebake
02-27-2008, 04:11 PM
I know it can be a little unsettling to start a thread to show off some gear/work and then get criticism rolling in, but if you can take it straight up, you'll see that the info is just...info. And often worthwhile.

Andyoz
02-27-2008, 04:37 PM
I have room behind the curtains to apply 1" foam all around the perimeter of the room. The curtains hang down between 3'-4'.

The curtains on the back wall of the stage have no foam applied behind them, nor is there foam applied to the wall behind the speaker stacks.

May be a good place to start. I have room there for 3-4" foam if recommended.

ANY help or advice in room dampening treatment is always welcome!!!
we have done our best, and recognize acoustics is quite the science!

From your decription, the use of 2" or 4" foam on the upper 3' of the walls should help (just don't load any more 1" in there). It's a fairly standard form of treatment to do some of the ceilng and the upper walls (if only so the punters can't get at it)

It's a shame you have no way of measuring the Reverberation Time in your room, as you really need to know the starting point to decide treatment areas. You can make a room too dead and that can be just as frustrating to work in as a room that's too live (although the lesser of two evils IMO).

For amplified music, good rooms generally have a nice tight "snap" to the sound of a hand clap decay. The decay is not too long or too short - it's hard to describe really.

Also, what sort of foam are you using exactly? Can you post a link to any products you use. You basically have a choice between open cell polyurethane based foam or "Melamine" foam. The Melamine stuff is generally more expensive - at least it is over here in the EU as there's only one factory licensed to make it and they're real busy!

SMKSoundPro
02-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Andyoz,

Thank you for the great advice on dampening, under and over!

Here is the link to the company I have ordering foam from.

http://www.foambymail.com/soundproofing.html

Please advise more!!!


Scotty.

Andyoz
02-28-2008, 04:12 PM
That link appears to show open-cell polyurethane based foam. The absorption performance data looks correct but maybe you should ask them that question anyway.

You're on the right track sourcing the foam from a "bulk" foam supplier that also does upholstery, etc. This stuff really isn't rocket science like some of the specialist "acoustic foam" suppliers make it out to be.

One bit of advice is don't bother using the foams that have a fancy wedge, etc. shaped profiles. You just need 2" or 4" thick foam with a flat surface. The profiled faces don't offer any extra absorption but are more expensive to make and will degrade faster over time (the tips of the wedges start to crumple). Some will argue that the wedge profile offers a greater overall surface area but it's a smokescreen - at the key mid-frequencies it doesn't matter.

boputnam
02-28-2008, 06:39 PM
One bit of advice is don't bother using the foams that have a fancy wedge, etc. shaped profiles. You just need 2" or 4" thick foam with a flat surface. The profiled faces don't offer any extra absorption but are more expensive to make and will degrade faster over time (the tips of the wedges start to crumple). Some will argue that the wedge profile offers a greater overall surface area but it's a smokescreen - at the key mid-frequencies it doesn't matter.That's sound ;) advice, Andy. Seems they are trying to blur the distinction between absorption and diffusion, and trying get premium pricing for a (relatively) simple foam product...

SMKSoundPro
02-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Thank you very much for your keen insight!!!

I am packing the van now for a roadtrip to Fairbanks for a weekend gig.

My business partner will run the rig this weekend, and I hope I have it closely dialed in for him. (He is so scared of the dragqueens)

Point is: I won't to hear it for the shows this weekend, and will only hope I have left him in good shape.

Thank you all for your continued advice!

I really can take it, and not get frustrated by it. I know we are a community of like minded individuals with differrent levels of experience/ education.

Lisa asks me everyday, "what did you and the boys talk about today?"

So again, Thank you!!!

Scott.

Andyoz
02-29-2008, 02:48 AM
That's sound ;) advice, Andy. Seems they are trying to blur the distinction between absorption and diffusion, and trying get premium pricing for a (relatively) simple foam product...

Yes, I cringe whenever I see studio, etc. walls covered in the profiled faced foam.

The problem is, most people are conditioned from marketing material to think that absorption needs to look like that. In reality, they are getting confused between absorption and diffusion and this is something we see all the time. Some marketing material indicates that having the variable foam depths helps absorption. It doesn't, as all acoustic foam at least 1" thick offers almost perfect absorption from about 1000Hz and above. It's the thickness of foam (not the face profile) that defines how well it performs below that frequency. The only exception is in anechoic chambers which have wedges that are one to two feet long - now that works!

Basically, you will never see acoustic consultants recommending this wedge shaped foam. The game's up guys.

richluvsound
02-29-2008, 03:39 AM
Hi Scotty,

these guys know there ONIONS from there ORANGES. You have done a brilliant job.You have demonstrated real commitment and pushed yourself beyond your previous experience into an exciting new learning curve.

We are so lucky to have such a strong community. The knowledge we get from people like Andy,Bo and the many others that contribute solutions to our problems, would cost thousands; and we dont get the EGO BOLLOCKS that so often goes with that heavy price tag either. :D

Well done mate .

Rich

SMKSoundPro
02-29-2008, 11:32 PM
Thank you Andy for your advice!

Lisa and I are here in Fairbanks, Alaska. -10 degrees with North winds at 40 mph, gusts to 50mph.

BRRRRRR.

Here is a picture out the window of Mt. Denali (aka:Mt. McKinley) 30,320' highest point in North American Continent. Rarely seen.

Will write later, and start ordering 2" foam.

Scott .

boputnam
03-01-2008, 05:10 AM
Lisa and I are here in Fairbanks...Been there, done that.

I was working on Fort Knox gold mine, and drove from Anchorage to Fairbanks, o/n in Talkeetna. Seemed like a good idea. Mid-point and a chance to see Denali. Arrived just as the last ski plane was loading, and cancellations gave me a seat. Flew around the massif and landed on a glacier for a brief hike. The weather was stunner.

Best part yet to come...

Back in Talkeetna, I had booked a room at a roadhouse - National Geographic had just done a compelling piece on the area and I was going there anyway, so... The manager affirms it is a roadhouse with live music and there should be some fun that night. Cool. I have a room upstairs, ask what time the music starts and head off to dinner.

About 10pm I come 'round and sidle up to the bar for a "cleansing ale" (title for the last beer of the night...). The band is from nowhere'sville - some dood and a Yoko Ono wannabe, drum machine and crap PA. They are a Creedence cover band. Fine enough for one cleansing ale. After the fourth, I'm tiring of the challenge to endure their limited songlist. And, I have always hated Creedence.

Head to bed.

Turns out, the room is RIGHT OVER the bar. A deadly smoking bar - seems everyone has one lit and another always on standby. My door has a gap beneath large enough for my wallet. But, I'm bushed from the drive and hike, and pile in. Smoke is INTENSE - even for me, and I'm used to playing in smoking bars in the southwest.

There are only 4 people in the bar, yet the din continues from below. They are repeating their song list for at-least the 3rd time. Egads. Smoke billows into my room. More Creedence than you can imagine.

(cut to end)

The Lame Band plays until 04.30hrs, repeating their songlist ad infinitum. I was astonished. The smoke never let up. I got up at 05.00hrs to complete the drive to Fairbanks for some meetings.

I wish I'da known of Scotty's club - I'd have driven straight through... :yes:
:scoot:

mbd7
03-02-2008, 01:06 PM
since I was there last August. They said it was rarely seen because it "makes" its own weather! But it was looking just like your picture most of the time I was there. :blink:

boputnam
03-02-2008, 07:08 PM
I didn't know Mt. Denali had grown 10,000 feet since I was there last August. Ha! Good one!

At that height, it would top Chomolungma! :no:

SMKSoundPro
03-02-2008, 11:15 PM
Oh Heavens! I have made a mistake!

Please note: Mt Denali at 20,320' above sea level.

And also add, that Denali's peak is rarely seen. So this trip on Friday was just glorious!

boputnam
03-06-2008, 08:32 PM
Oh Heavens! I have made a mistake!Dood, we don't care about that!

Back to the project. Have you had a chance to tune the system? Any results to report?

:bouncy:

SMKSoundPro
03-06-2008, 11:49 PM
real peaky at 4k, go figure!

problem at 160-250, knew that one going into it.

I have been "playing" with this RTA and learning with it upstairs, then took it downstairs.

I learned that I want to put an 1/3 octave eq in the VOX group.

And a 2x1/3 octave (dbx 2231) inserted in the main outs to use as a cut only.

take the 2x2/3 octave (dbx 2215) out of the final drive. Probably put it in the program group.

BUT, I am out of rack space, right this second. The new matching rack is up here w/ paint drying.

I just came up from karaoke and was able to dial a little bit with "singers" on the stage.

More to do. Need foam in front of the horns on the ceiling.

Two active bullets on each side out of a MAcro 600 turned up to 12 noon is plenty! I want to pull the 2445's back, but not too much.

Tomorrow is Friday and I will be the host of the show, and running the rig and will have a chance to hear more.

I had a question for Mike Caldwell, but can't think of it, now. I am running the 4x18's per side up to 120hz, and the music seems to really get it on.

It doesn't have a hi-fi quality, knew it wouldn't. Just wanted big nasty speakers that I can take with me when I leave this place! After 10 years in August, Who am I kidding. I am here. Good gig.

Will write more, later. I have been working on one of the hydronic boilers all day. Replaced the expansion tank, a couple of sweaty solder joints, still needs a new circ pump on one zone.

Every sound dog has to be a plumber, electrician, mechanic, designer, welder...etc. Oh, and own a van or two.

Hope all is well with all of you. I log in everyday to see if anyone else is building something.

Scotty.

SMKSoundPro
03-06-2008, 11:51 PM
Bo, you had mentioned once about putting a delay on one side of the stack, just enough to cut the bass gutter coming up the middle.

Tell me more.

boputnam
03-07-2008, 03:05 PM
real peaky at 4k, go figure!

problem at 160-250, knew that one going into it.

I have been "playing" with this RTA and learning with it upstairs, then took it downstairs.

I learned that I want to put an 1/3 octave eq in the VOX group.

And a 2x1/3 octave (dbx 2231) inserted in the main outs to use as a cut only.

take the 2x2/3 octave (dbx 2215) out of the final drive. Probably put it in the program group.All this all suggests to me...

- stage SPL too high for the monitor EQ you have
- your monitors are not properly EQ'd (I'm going to post a primer for you on this - just been too busy!)
- you need a more powerful EQ at FOH - something with some real filter power. What EQ's are you using?


I am running the 4x18's per side up to 120hz, and the music seems to really get it on. That is too high. The 18's should be subs, only. Nothing above 80-90Hz would be my goal.


It doesn't have a hi-fi quality, knew it wouldn't. That there is bullshit. It can and will. We just need to tune it to stop fighting itself and the room.


Bo, you had mentioned once about putting a delay on one side of the stack, just enough to cut the bass gutter coming up the middle.

Tell me more.You're talking about the power alley, formed in the middle of two stacks of woofers. It's the area of overlapping coverage. Subs are a problem when spaced on each side of the stage - a power alley is gonna form. Solutions?

- turn down the subs so the alley is tolerable. This will result in less LF loading of the room (a good thing - you are putting less energy into it) and areas along each side that are light in LF. Not a bad thing, but noticable.

- turn down the volume of one sub (L or R). This is "Differential Gain" technique, and widens the alley, smearing it toward the side with lower gain.

- delay one sub different from the other. The difference doesn't need to be much. This has a similar affect as using Differential Gain (see above). The alley no longer runs down the center of the room (it will cross at an angle), but it is still pretty narrow (bad). Widening the alley is better using Differential Gain.

I'd:

- lower your HPF to 80-90Hz
- lower the overall subs gain (reduces energy going into the room)
- use Differential Gain and lower the gain on one side of sub (widens the power alley)

boputnam
03-07-2008, 03:26 PM
- you need a more powerful EQ - something with some real filter power. What EQ's are you using?I say this because...

Last Saturday, had a great wedge mix. Monitors sounded amazing. As the band cranked-up the SPL, they wanted ever more from the wedges. As usual... Suddenly, a nasty and persistent resonance appeared at 6.3kHz. This was not in the house during sound check - must have arrived late... :p Anyway, on the KT DN370, I ended-up using one of it's notch filters at 6.3kHz and had that filter fully down, too.

Notch filter: > -18dB, Q=32. That is a powerful filter
Filter: -12dB

Total: > -30dB at 6.3kHz

...and it still wanted to ring. But it gave me at-least +6dB more headroom in the wedges before fb. That's a powerful EQ.

SMKSoundPro
03-07-2008, 04:40 PM
lowered the HPF to 100hz. All that is possible with this Rane SAC-22b for the sub drive. (instantly cleaned up the bonky-ness)

I am using a dbx 2215 eq for house drive. I have the 2231 upstairs waiting to come down when more rack realestate is available.

Two eon 15 powered for stage playback monitors, driven off of aux 1/ post fader then to Rane ME30b 1/3 oct. simple.


It IS low-fi at its finest!!!! (low-fi is a relative term! http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon12.gif)

also lowered the amps driving the right side subs, just a touch.

(I actually worked as a monitor enginer for a few years. I have a handle on how it works.)

boputnam
03-07-2008, 05:23 PM
lowered the HPF to 100hz. All that is possible with this Rane SAC-22b for the sub drive. (instantly cleaned up the bonky-ness)Cool. Try another 10Hz - you'll find less is more. :p


(I actually worked as a monitor enginer for a few years. I have a handle on how it works.)I believe you. I'll just share my ever-improving approach. Maybe it'll gain you a few dB GBF with fewer headaches...

boputnam
03-07-2008, 05:46 PM
Use the RTA in the same manner as for the Mains (Post #88, above).

- Pull the wedge out to where your RTA and EQ are housed, right next to where you can make adjustments.

- Run Pink Noise and measure the frequency response with your RTA, striving to get a flat-as-pancake response. Remove the response anomalies of the drivers and the cabinet. Notching always preferable over boosting, but wedges are not properly tuned cabinets so give your self some leeway here.

- Now, using a mic for yelling* and pre-recorded material for playing, speak / play through the wedge. Fine tune to most pleasant sound. Noting carefully where the filters are set, move some up/down in certain parts of the spectrum and listen to how the wedge behaves.
--- Pay particular attention to the 1kHz realm - this is where horns tend to honk and give a most unnatural and unappealing sound.
-- Make sure you have some sibilance (2kHz to 4.5kHz). But, be careful - smaller diameter CD's get real piercing at high gain, particularly in the 4.5kHz realm. Go easy...
--- Make sure your "bottom" is the driver and not cabinet bonki-resonance. You DO NOT want cabinet bonkiness :scold: - that will quickly mud-up the stage sound and make the artists ask for more gain. What you need is less mud.


Like what you have? Pretty appealing? We're not done yet... :no:


- Move the wedge back to stage, normal location(s).

- Open up three or more vocal mics to normal Pad and Input/Group/Mix fader settings (Unity).

- Turn on the Mains and all the monitors.

- Choose one mic Pad, say center mic. Now with no-one on stage...

- slowly, and watching the RTA, reduce that Pad moving it up (less), gradually. Room/cabinet/stage resonances will begin to appear as subtle "feedback" - don't freak - tease them up and watch the RTA. Feedback is your friend - it shows you where it is! As the resonances become audible and visible, note their frequency and turn the Pad back to nominal position. Notch the EQ for that freqency(s).

- Repeat.

- Repeat.

- At this point, you probably have the Pad at-least at 4 O'clock, higher than you've ever had it. BE CAREFUL - THE SYSTEM IS HOT AS HELL RIGHT NOW AND ANY SOUND WILL QUICKLY ELICIT A BIG FEEDBACK RESPONSE. To get here, you also likely had to add some Mains notches, too. That's fine.

- Turn the Pad to it's normal position (noon ?), go to stage and listen to the wedges. Are they nice and hot? Good response? Good bite? No bonkiness? If no to any one of these, go again.

My grab is, if you go this route you'll whack those moles that keep poking their heads, and have much improved GBF. If you don't have control of stage, you'll never get control of the house...


------------------
* - Count only to 2. Soundguys never, ever count to 3 - you'll end up lifting something... :blink:

Mike Caldwell
03-07-2008, 06:06 PM
Hello
Let me know when you think what it was you wanted to ask.

I noticed that you said you were running the monitors on a post fade aux. Normally a pre fade aux works better so your monitor levels are not changing as you make adjustments on the main mix.

With the system dialed in you should not really need a 1/3 octave eq inserted in the vocal group, maybe a comp inserted on the group to smooth out some vocals set some where in the 3 or 4 to 1 range.

Talk to you later
Mike Caldwell

boputnam
03-07-2008, 06:13 PM
I noticed that you said you were running the monitors on a post fade aux. Normally a pre fade aux works better so your monitor levels are not changing as you make adjustments on the main mix. Yea, good one, Mike.


Two eon 15 powered for stage playback monitors, driven off of aux 1/ post fader then to Rane ME30b 1/3 oct. simple.Why'd you choose "post fade", Scotty? Would be giving you real fb trouble when your trying to boost the VOX in the Mix...

SMKSoundPro
03-07-2008, 06:28 PM
because "some moron" (me) changed all of the internal jumpers so that ALL of the aux 1&2's are post fader.

I was running the monitor wedges out 3 or 4, which is pre/post switchable.

Its just one more little thing to tear the desk apart, and on every card un-solder the jumpers and change them over. Time...seems like a luxury.

(Lisa crying for a little attention, too!) (read: "now that the rig is installed, how about we talk about something else for awhile!")

All of the singers are singing to tracks. They don't really need a lot of monitor because they are so RARELY on stage! They are singing and working every table for dollar tips.

(When was the last time you were at a drag show?) The performers start their number on stage and within the first chorus, they are down on the floor walking and collecting tips.

So, mainly they are performing with the house stack and racks. (No IE monitors! It would interfere with the GIANT earrings!)

Must get ready to eat and go back for the show. Starts at 9 o'clock...sharp.

Scotty.

boputnam
03-07-2008, 09:57 PM
(When was the last time you were at a drag show?)That there, is funny.

Anyway, Scotty, I can't speak for the rest, but I got nuthin' more here. You've accepted a great deal of proffered experience, and if adopted, me thinks you'll have won some quality time with both Lisa, and with whatever you've named the System.

:wave:

SMKSoundPro
03-08-2008, 03:57 PM
Thank you ALL!!!

Last night the rig worked great!!!

It did anything I asked of it. It was FuN!!!

I leaned on the throttle a bit during one of the acts, and it just roared!

Our lead security gal came to me saying that some of the people in the back of the room were buying earplugs!

We both agreed it wasn't THAT loud.

I pulled the rig back a little, then thought...

How much are we selling the earplugs for, and how much is our profit margin on them.:applaud:

Scotty.

jackgiff
03-09-2008, 03:29 PM
How much are we selling the earplugs for, and how much is our profit margin on them.:applaud:

Scotty.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Hi Scott,

Glad to hear your new system is working great. I would like to be able to come and hear it some time, but don't know if I could take a drag show.

Here is something that might have escaped your notice. ASU finished in fifth place in the PAC 10, while UA finished in seventh. Maybe there is a God in heaven, huh? Say hello to Lisa.

SMKSoundPro
03-09-2008, 09:34 PM
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Hi Scott,

Glad to hear your new system is working great. I would like to be able to come and hear it some time, but don't know if I could take a drag show.

Here is something that might have escaped your notice. ASU finished in fifth place in the PAC 10, while UA finished in seventh. Maybe there is a God in heaven, huh? Say hello to Lisa.
Yes Jack, there is a GOD in Heaven! He is just giving the Devils a little notariety for now! Seems odd for God to give anything to Devils, but will call my uncle, the Very Reverend Uncle Bob, and ask him. (retired Episcopal Priest in Florida) and now rehired out of retirement to preach at the same chuch, again.

I hope everyone and anyone that finds their way to Anchorage, Alaska will come by and say hi! Lisa and I are proud of what we do and how the place looks and works. The whle place is vintage JBL gear, and it is fun to work with and get a paycheck, too!

Thank you all!!!!

4343
03-10-2008, 06:55 PM
...
And also add, that Denali's peak is rarely seen. So this trip on Friday was just glorious!


I had to snap a pic of a postcard when I was there last Fall. Told people they "just missed it" when I showed them the screen on my camera...:p

Turns out a guy that I went to school with lives a few miles south of Denali Park entrance, guy name of Jeff King, runs a place called Husky Homestead. We had a catch-up session after his tour.

The latest news I found on Jeff was this:
"King was the first musher to leave the Unalakleet, Alaska, checkpoint at 6:17 p.m. ADT (8:17 p.m. MDT) Sunday."

Any newer reports? Is He gonna make 5?

SMKSoundPro
03-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Here is today ADN:
http://www.adn.com/




I had to snap a pic of a postcard when I was there last Fall. Told people they "just missed it" when I showed them the screen on my camera...:p

Turns out a guy that I went to school with lives a few miles south of Denali Park entrance, guy name of Jeff King, runs a place called Husky Homestead. We had a catch-up session after his tour.

The latest news I found on Jeff was this:
"King was the first musher to leave the Unalakleet, Alaska, checkpoint at 6:17 p.m. ADT (8:17 p.m. MDT) Sunday."

Any newer reports? Is He gonna make 5?

Tkroeker
09-21-2016, 01:17 PM
73701
Hide the stairs and lower the horns. subs across the bottom of the stage.

cut and past in Paint makes the horns appear lower than they would actually come out I know this thread is 2008, but....

JeffW
09-21-2016, 01:57 PM
I wonder what happened to Scotty, haven't seen him around in ages.

honkytonkwillie
09-27-2016, 12:32 AM
Scotty is still around. I check in on him every now and then and drop into his workshop/club, and talk about gear and projects we're working on.

Near the end of August we talked, and he reported that a week or two prior, he and the owner of the club had a falling out of sorts - some bad blood that had been simmering for years I understand. Then over the course of 6 days and lots of ugliness and posturing with the owner and his hired security watching his every move, Scotty and 8 friends uninstalled and transported every bit of his gear off-site. Including a pair of 4355 in his shop area upstairs. And the curtains.

I didn't realize all the gear in the place was his personal stuff.

This thread began several years before I made acquaintance with Scotty, so I didn't hear earlier versions of his system as it was taking shape. I can say with certainty though, as of a year ago, a sound-check/demo in an empty house was mighty impressive.