2225h, 2425j 2405h (077) [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

seeker

02-01-2008, 10:34 AM

Hi all!

I am new to this forum and new to JBL... I was at a frien's house and heared his newly bought L300 Summit DIY copies....... I was really surprized to hear such clarity in the midrange, crisp and transparent top and tight bottom......
Anyway, I figured, maybe I could build myself something simular that isn't that big but yet good enough! In my room, where I sit, I have like 6-10 db raise at 30-50Hz and therefore looked upon woofers with a bit higher fs. I liked the sound of the 15" woofers in the L300 but realized that it wasn't for me, too big cabinet and too deep in terms of Hz.

I went to ebay etc. and came up (bought) with the following drivers:
2405h - 077 8Ohm with the prism (former jubal)
2425j
2225h

I will by horns (perhaps H91) and lenses to that.
I could change diaphrams 16 to 8 or vice vers

Now to my question:
Do you have any suggestions regarding crossovers horns lenses or boxes?
It would be prefferable to use standard crossovers (or just the schematics) from JBL but it's not a must! I would imagine that the JBL technicians has made a great job developing those crossovers....

Best regards
Patrik

macaroonie

02-01-2008, 11:33 AM

You might want to have a look at this ------

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17238&highlight=backyard+box+building+build

Its kind of in your zone.:)

seeker

02-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Wow that was an interesting thread.... Will dig into that deeper later on for the buliding part!

What was your thoughts around the choise of crossover? Going active could be something for me to because I have the parts. Rather weak amplifiers though (Active home from Hypex). But I think that I will have a go at a passive crossover.

Do you know what differs from your and my woofers?
What are you driving the speakers with?
What are your impression of the speakrs now?
Do you still have them as they were?

Are there anyone else with this setup?
Which crossovers could I choose from (IBM Parts) and what modifications do I then have to do? changing diphrams?

/Patrik

richluvsound

02-01-2008, 12:54 PM

Hi seeker,

it would be worthwhile having the 2225 reconed to 2235 .
2225 wont go low enough . If you need 2425's I can help - I have a pair with brandnew aquaplased dia that are just sitting here. Where are you in this big bad world ?

Rich

macaroonie

02-01-2008, 01:21 PM

I know its quite a long thread but spend the time and plough through it and the parallel thread ' backyard box building '. Most of your questions are answered in there somewhere.
I would suggest that you go active if you have small kit amps for two reasons. One, the demands on each amp are significantly reduced because you do not suffer the insertion losses that occur with a passive network.
Two, given that you have at least two of these amps the cost of ramping up to the six ch. that are required is not high. I would suggest that one of these hypex units will not really be adequate to run the full system, and the cost of upgrading the amp to something more suitable will most likely cost more than more kits. Granted you still have to get an electronic x/o. Tons to chose from or build your own if you feel up to it.
Here is another link for you. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/M-Series%20Electronics/M553.pdf PS Rich is right about the recone but no need to do that yet you got some boxes to build. 2370 horn will get you there cheaply or my man in San Francisco will tell you about a suitable waveguide that you can use.
Zilch is the name and you will be needing him for your grill cloth requisites.
All the info you will need is here somewhere or if you get stuck just ask.
Good luck:applaud:

seeker

02-01-2008, 02:09 PM

Hi!

richluvsound: I already have the drivers I'm afraid. Thanks anyway!
But I am not so sure that the deeper bass won't be sufficient enough because I will have the speakers close to the wall behind them. Also I will sit close to the wall behind myself...... This will create a boost of, in the region, 6-10 db at 30-50Hz. The speaker box will also be slite larger than recommended, further extend the bass.

macaroonie: The active crossovers and amps are 3-way active with 3x65W in 8 Ohms per speaker....... I know it's not much so I will try it but I don't beleve in it.

/Patrik

seeker

02-01-2008, 03:56 PM

Is there anyone else that perhaps has input regarding sutable crossovers ?

Also a sutable horn and lens..... Was thinking about H91??

/Patrik

richluvsound

02-02-2008, 02:11 AM

Seeker,

coral make good copies of both 2307 (h 91 ) and 2308 lens. ebay is your best bet. There is a set set on German ebay.

I suggested a recone for 2 reasons. 2235 is
far more efficient than the 2225 pa woof- better suited to low level listening.If you want to clone the original crossover , then stick to original component spec. If you want to stick with 2225 then you'll have to redisign the crossover.

Rich

seeker

02-02-2008, 02:53 AM

richluvsound: Do you mean the original crossover to L300?
One question though, What does it mean when JBL shows on the schematics that you should take the signal from the middle (AS IT LOOKS) of the coil...?
From the posts that I have read here it dousn't matter if I have 8 ohm 077 when it comes to the crossover values..?

I will check the horn from coral Thanks! Germany --> Sweden is not that far!

/Patrik

macaroonie

02-02-2008, 03:16 AM

JBL used that tapped coil quite a lot in the good old days but it is not an off the shelf item. Somewhere in this forum there is a post that has it measured etc but much easier than that, here is a post from 4313B that re works the crossover and does not use that split coil

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1042&postcount=3

matsj

02-02-2008, 06:16 AM

Technovox have 4 2307 for 400 svenska styck and maybe he have the 2308 lins also. Recone your 2225 to 2235 at LN högtalarservice for a lot better sound.
Where in Sweden do you live Patrik ?
Make a L300 look a like and you have a good start.

mats

seeker

02-02-2008, 12:32 PM

Hi!

matsj: I live in Gothenburg and I don't know if you are the same mats that I am bying the bass and midrange drivers from but one thing is defenetly clear, you stole the L300 from a friend of mine, just in front of his nose.... ;-) That seller did not no what the value was!!

As I can see you all (some of you) think that I should recone the 2225 but I am not as sure of that as some of you are.... I can get really good bass from speakers that have their fs at -6 db at 50Hz in my room and in my listening position.......... Of course I will definetly give the original 2225 a try and go from there!!

Will the value (in terms of $) of the drivers be lower if I recone them?

Also hat do you think of the combination 077 8ohm, 2425 16 ohm - H91 or equal and lens , and the woofer 2225 or 2235? could it be something successful? I haven't seen anyone here at the forum with this combo.

/Patrik

richluvsound

02-02-2008, 12:47 PM

Seeker,

your lucky that the 2225 basket is one of the very few that will take 2235 kit.

I think you answered your own question regarding your proposed combo.

The guys here know their stuff and I'd be inclined to follow them. There are

current and ex-employees from JBL that post here.... This is the Mecca !

The 2235 is one of JBL's most copied designs. Check the spec on the usher studio 15 . Only the Chinese copy crap !

Rich

matsj

02-02-2008, 01:06 PM

Sorry for the L300 :D. No i´m not the same mats. I think you bought the stuff in småland right ?
I think you are on the right way.

2235h is for "hifi" and 2225 are more for "Pa".

There aint so many horns for 2425, but don´t look for the 2370.

mats

speakerdave

02-02-2008, 02:21 PM

I used some 2225H's in some 4333a's briefly while the 2231's were being refoamed and I could not wait to hear the speakers doing something!, anything!

It was evident that the low bass was missing, and the midrange transition from the woofer did not work with the stock crossover. When the 2231's were ready I popped them in, and those two problems were fixed, but it was also clear that I had lost a good deal of snap and slam in the upper bass, which I do like.

So, as I see you are apparently set on using your 2225's, I will share this experience with you, but unfortunately I cannot advise you on how to adjust the crossover. You may be correct about thinking the 2225 will work well in your room, but it could also be the case that copying the L300 exactly and moderating your room mode some other way, may in the end be easier.

Regards,

David

seeker

02-02-2008, 02:33 PM

speakerdave: My plan was not to exacty copy the crossovers, more like having someting to tweak.... I know trhat the midrange drivers and woofers aren't the same...

Ok, you perhaps think that they will be sufficient in my room... what enclosure did you have them in?

Is there anyone having experiencieas from the 4325 with L91 horn and lenses?

/Patrik

speakerdave

02-02-2008, 02:44 PM

. . . . Ok, you perhaps think that they will be sufficient in my room . . . .

Not sure I said that, exactly. More like, that woofer does have it's good points along with its shortcomings. It's a trade-off. You pick.

. . . . what enclosure did you have them in? . . . .

4333a's. Obviously, tuned for the 2231, not the 2225.

. . . . You may be correct about thinking the 2225 will work well in your room, but it could also be the case that copying the L300 exactly and moderating your room mode some other way, may in the end be easier. . . .

This is an uncritical way of saying it's an interesting idea, but I have no way of knowing whether it will work or not. But finish reading the rest of the sentence. Crossover tweaking is tweaking only for someone who knows crossovers very well (and they cannot do it in absentia). For everybody else it's very difficult.

David

seeker

02-02-2008, 03:47 PM

speakerdave:
I have no possibilities to tweak or moderate my room and the placement of the speakers and the position of where I am sitting is kind of fixed... Children does make the speakers tend to get closer to the wall and the wife (spauss) makes me know my place, also in the living room...:banghead:

I (and a friend of mine) have some knoledge in crossovers but I think that this forum id unvalueble when it comes to JBL!

If I would go for the L300 crossover or whatever you do recommend, what changes do I have to do (what are the things to consider)?

/Patrik

speakerdave

02-02-2008, 04:30 PM

If your room mode has the rise you say it has it seems to me it could be dealt with using line level equalization in front of the amps. If it is actually more severe, you may need a tunable notch filter like the 565T UREI (you would need two). Or go digital. In any case, I would not myself build a speaker for a particular room and certainly not for a particular sitting position; the first is contrary to standard practice as I understand it, and the second is nonsensical as far as I am concerned. I would buy or replicate an already-engineered system like the 4333a/L300 with as smooth and accurate frequency response as possible and deal with the room mode separately. As I said above, I cannot advise you about adjusting the crossover filter.

Regards,

David

richluvsound

02-02-2008, 06:47 PM

Seeker ,

I see technovox have 2231 x 2 instock. ebay the 2225 and buy the 2231 alnico.

Rich

seeker

02-03-2008, 01:05 AM

Hi All!

You are really on your toes here, trying to keep up with the replies as fast as I can....

Ok, the situation I have with a huge basslift I thought that it was better to swap bass drivers with a solution that I liked (L300) because the L300 bass?? (2231 right?) demands a huge box and has a really low fs. If I use a speaker with that low fs it would be unbarebly, I promise you. And, a while ago I had a Tact RCS 2.0 (room correction unit) and tampered with the frequenzies but I never liked the sound of that tampered bass.
I will have a box of ~75 litres to have a softer rolloff to suite my room better (+ 6-10 db at 30-50Hz) according to my calculations I will then have a resonable output down to below ~30Hz. I am not worried driving the woofers that low because I can't play that loud anyway....

Given this information, do you still think that it is a bad idea to use those woofers?

matsj: I will check out technovox perhaps on monday. Lenses seems to be hard to find... And yes, it is Småland. My applologies!

macaroonie: Thanks for the information regarding the coils! You straighten out some question marks.

/Patrik

Zilch

02-03-2008, 01:49 AM

75L = 2.65 cuft.

The subject is not L300 here, nope.

[H91 does not L300 make, either.... :no: ]

seeker

02-03-2008, 02:11 AM

75L = 2.65 cuft.

The subject is not L300 here, nope.

[H91 does not L300 make, either.... :no: ]

L300 was what I listened to but I don't have the space to house them. So I thought making a speaker with some simularities like 15" bass, 077 and perhaps the short hornand lens to be able to have the enclosures smaller.
I guess it's possible to make a speaker sound good without cloning the L300..?

/Patrik

richluvsound

02-03-2008, 03:53 AM

75L = 2.65 cuft.

The subject is not L300 here, nope.

[H91 does not L300 make, either.... :no: ]

seeker,

sorry , as Zilch has correctly pointed out , the 2307 wont give you a L300.

The 2312 is used in the L300/ 4333.
Also:
X max 2225 = 5mm
2235 = 8.5mm

approx 30% difference = 30 % less detail / information

Rich

this information is in here somewhere.

seeker

02-03-2008, 04:15 AM

I have a pair of L36 today and I hope/think that this combo will be an upgrade.

I know it can't make miracles but an improvment...?

/Patrik

richluvsound

02-03-2008, 04:23 AM

Seeker,

L36 is one of JBL's finest IMHO:D

Rich

macaroonie

02-03-2008, 06:24 AM

Patrik, I understand where you are coming from with this project and particularly with regard to your bass issues. I have a few suggestions / comments you might wish to consider.

I have built L300 ish speakers and in attempting to reduce the size somewhat I ran into the same problems ie. the 2312 horn plus its driver makes the cabinet very deep plus the 15" driver forces the cabinet to be 17" wide at least.
How to proceed ? Ask Zilch about which PT waveguide will work in this application ie. 800Hz crossover. with the 2425 drivers. They are quite compact and he has had good results from them. This should allow you to start getting the box size down somewhat.
Along with the other guys I agree that the 2225 is probably not the right bass driver in the long run but you have them so it will not hurt to start out with what you have. If you are bass shy then you can recone to 2235H. The other thing to consider is the bass loading. It may well be the case that a sealed cabinet will give you a tidier responsein your room.
If you follow my suggestion and go active , changing the driver is easy as the crossover adjustment is literally the turn of a potentiometer.
I would suggest that when you do build your cabinets that you make the baffle removeable in the area of the bass driver. It may be the case that a 12" driver ( or even better LE14H) will be better.
To get a handle on this you should download Win ISD. http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd

johnaec

02-03-2008, 07:44 AM

Ask Zilch about which PT waveguide will work in this application ie. 800Hz crossover. with the 2425 drivers. They are quite compact and he has had good results from them.A slight correction - the 2425 drivers won't work with PT waveguides. The waveguides require a screw-on mount, and the 2425 is fixed 3-bolt mount. The 2426 series has a removable 3-bolt adapter, leaving the requisite screw-on mount. Another option is the 2408H, JBL's newer neodymium 1" driver, though I don't believe it goes as low as the 2426 drivers.

John

seeker

02-03-2008, 08:48 AM

johnaec

02-03-2008, 09:42 AM

What is "PT waveguides"?http://www.jblpro.com/PD5000/PDF/PT_WaveGuide.pdf

Also, member Zilch has done a lot of experimentation and testing using them in 2-way systems with good results. There are a couple long threads by him illustrating this. Perhaps he'll chime in with more specific links, etc.

John

Zilch

02-03-2008, 03:10 PM

Dropping the room / bass diskussion for a moment.....

I was thinking of a H91/2425h-Titanium and a 077 (2405h) combo.
Probably, I will try creating a crossover point at 1200 between the 2225 and the 2425 and a crossover point around 8kHz beteween the 2425 and the 077.

Do you guys know if there is an "on the market" crossover that I can use or tweak so I don't have to start from the beginning with everything?

Has anyone tried something like this?3120 + 3105

I'm just trying to bring perspective to this project. It's 2225H + 2425J on something + 077, in 2.65 cuft. I WOULD use 2370A, probably, for the horn. An improved crossover for that was posted here recently. Combine with DIY 3106 maybe, or something even higher parsed from N3133, as I have posted earlier....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=197944#post197944

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9547&stc=1&d=1124468052

seeker

02-03-2008, 04:39 PM

Thanks Zilch: Will I always be needing an equalization link or could that be avoided with a H91 and a lens? I was under the impression that a lens could make things easier...? Just something that I have heard.

What are your thoughts regarding the comparison of H91/lens and 2370?

/Patrik

Zilch

02-03-2008, 05:21 PM

seeker

02-04-2008, 04:48 AM

I don't mess with H91 except as a matter of academic interest.

I like the pattern control of the Biradials better than the lens, and the PT waveguides even better.

That said, I have tried what you are proposing for M/H, it sounds quite good, and is documented in these forums here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12522

See also:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=166

Ok, what do you mean by "I don't mess with H91 except as a matter of academic interest"? My English isn't that good I'm afraid...

Swapping the LE85 in the thread with the H91/2425. Do you think that it is a similar crossover and similar performance?

Can 8 Ohm attenuators be used for the mid and high?

/Patrik

seeker

02-04-2008, 11:17 AM

Anyone here that has tested 2405h(077)/2425(6)j?
If yes, what was your impression?
What combination of horn etc. did you use?

Listened to horns last night.... Damn, that is something else!

/Patrik

macaroonie

02-04-2008, 03:35 PM

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19903
This is right up your street. :)

seeker

02-06-2008, 01:35 PM

Very interesting thread! below! Nice speekers also! I have bought 2425j/2370 and now have the following drivers:

2405h
2425j/2370
2225h

But, Is there anyone out there who has tested the 2425j/2370 and 2405h together?

/Patrik

SMKSoundPro

02-06-2008, 03:12 PM

I have the same components here.

2225/2425-2370a/2405

I am listening to a 2235 in a L200b cabinet, actively crossed over at 800hz using a JBL 5234 crossover, and into a 2445 - 2385 40x90 degree horn, then using a 3105 passive to add the 2405 slot.

I had a difficult time getting to sound like something I was used to.

The next box I am building for the small dance floor is;

2225 woofer and a 2425 - 2370a horn in a trpezoid shaped cabinet, akin to the JBL 4725. (see link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-Series/SR4725.pdf

I have one cabinet mocked up and ready to cut all of the parts. I was planning to biamp them, but Zilch's comments on other threads are causing me to re-think that approach.

I see this 15 and horn box in almost every brand of "pro" speaker, and of course I see the simple L200 as it's father figure.

I agree with using the 4507 cabinet and mounting the 2370 horn in it. Looks great, Bet it sounds good!

(Confusing post. Must try more coffee.) Scott.

seeker

02-08-2008, 06:56 AM

Hi!

The 2425j that I have (going to pick it up today) has a Titanium diaphrame. Does anyone know where to find a graph to compare to the official in aluminum ones?

Also, if I want to try going active what are the things to think of and also, what crossover frequencies should I go for?

I dont have unlimited power on the active amlifiers (I just want to try it).

2405h (077
2425j Ti (2370)
2225h

/Patrik

Zilch

02-08-2008, 02:09 PM

They never came with aluminum diaphragms, so there's no "official."

You buy them, you try them, and compare yourself.... :thmbsup:

SMKSoundPro

02-08-2008, 02:58 PM

Try an active 3-way crossover like the dbx 234, Rane Ac23, or JBL m-553.

I am crossing at 1.2k from the 2225 woofer, to 2425/2370 mid, and 7k from the 2425 mid to the 2405 UHF. I plan on using this speaker box (X4) downstairs in the small dance floor with 8 - 18's for a little sub kicker.

I use older pro amps from the early 80's ie: Yamaha p2200, P2100 and P2150 here in the shop. Work great.

I also have a hafler 500, crown D150, and D60 that I have yet to try. I don't have a Crown 300.

(Anyone got one of the older silver models to match my vintage crown rig?)

Please report back with your results.

scott.

seeker

02-08-2008, 03:02 PM

I am too new to this...... I thought that Alu was the "original"....

SMKSoundPro: Cool, do you have any Equalization going on? Active or passive??

/Patrik

Zilch

02-08-2008, 05:01 PM

I am too new to this...... I thought that Alu was the "original"....It's considered an "upgrade" for home use of those drivers.... :yes:

seeker

02-09-2008, 12:18 AM

I know that the ti version goes higher up in the freq. but is there anyone that has a plot or anything of the 2425(6)/2370 with the Ti diaphrame? Does anyone have any info on the caracteristcs?

/Patrik

Zilch

02-09-2008, 12:31 AM

Go to the JBL Pro website and look up the 2370A horn data sheet in "Products" under "Components."

seeker

02-09-2008, 12:53 AM

I think that I have done that but I can't seet to find anything regarding Titanium....

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370.htm

/Patrik

johnaec

02-09-2008, 08:52 AM

2370 measurements with titanium dia. 2425H driver: http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2370a.pdf

John

seeker

02-09-2008, 09:43 AM

How do you tell that it's a titanium dia?

/Patrik

Chas

02-09-2008, 09:52 AM

How do you tell that is a titanium dia?

/Patrik

I am pretty sure the 2425 and 2426 only come with a titanium diaphragm. Although the user can change it.

johnaec

02-09-2008, 10:40 AM

I am pretty sure the 2425 and 2426 only come with a titanium diaphragm.Correct, so it's safe to assume that's what JBL used in their measurements.

John

seeker

02-09-2008, 11:19 AM

Bump: anyone knows anything about the qestion below ??

Ok thanks!

For the 2225h woofer it is recommended to use 85-285 litres....
If you calculate the values, optimum would be like 50litres..... I was planning for ~75 litres with port tuned around 45-50Hz. That would give someting like -3 db at ~55Hz.
Do you know why JBL recommends such large cabinettes?

/Patrik

seeker

02-18-2008, 04:13 PM

jbl

02-19-2008, 11:23 AM

Hi All!

Tried the 2425/2370 horn the other day.... horrible for Hi-FI I think!

One thing though...
I saw that the 077 tweeter was labled with 8Ohm. Wasn't all the 077 with the prism, 16Ohm drivers?

/Patrik
Hey seeker,
What didn't you like about that combo? Been using the same for Hi-Fi since 1985. Sounds fine to me.
Just interested.

Ron

jerv

02-19-2008, 12:19 PM

Hi All!

Tried the 2425/2370 horn the other day.... horrible for Hi-FI I think!

/Patrik

Sounds fine to me as well. Though I freely admit that there are better horns for the 2425/2426 drivers (the 2344, for instance) - I also rather like the 2425/2370 for hifi.

What crossover did you use? IMHO, much of the bad rep the 2370 has concerning hifi is because many tries this horn with misaligned crossover networks. The 2370 is a CD device, and for hifi use needs CD compensation - very much like the 2344, for instance. Without compensation, it often can sound very peaky and nasty.

A suitable crossover topolopy is the one in the 4430. Or - try this circuit (optimized for the 2525J and a crossover frequency of about 1 kHz), which works ok for me (see some of the following posts for added detail):

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=197944#post197944

seeker

10-25-2008, 01:15 AM

Things has come between me and my building project but will continue with the following setup:
077
2420/Coral horn = (H91) and Coral lens
2225

Anyone knows anything about the qestion below ??

For the 2225h woofer it is recommended to use 85-285 litres....
If you calculate the values, optimum would be like 50litres..... I was planning for ~75 litres with port tuned around 45-50Hz. That would give someting like -3 db at ~55Hz.
Do you know why JBL recommends such large cabinettes?

/Patrik

4313B

10-25-2008, 05:50 AM

Do you know why JBL recommends such large cabinettes?The recommended 4.0 cu ft (113.3 l) volume tuned to 40 Hz yields a reasonable extended low frequency response.

seeker

10-25-2008, 11:55 AM

4313B

10-25-2008, 12:23 PM

I don't get it:dont-know!

please help anyone.....explain...I don't have that software package so I don't know how it arrives at its suggestions. It sounds like it arrives at a different solution than BassBox Pro.

If you want a turnkey solution then use the 4 cu ft volume tuned to 40 Hz. If you want to figure out what all the software does then you're just going to have to do what the rest of us have done and start building various boxes tuned to various frequencies and listening to them.

BassBox Pro recommends 1.7 cu ft tuned to 52 Hz for "High Fidelity" and 3.35 cu ft tuned to 40 Hz for "Extended Bass"...

Mr. Widget

10-25-2008, 12:23 PM

4313B:
Yes I know abou the ~113litres.....
But what puzzles me is that a 113 liters box will give a Q of 0.4..... A bit low?

A have the PC-program JBL Speaker Shop and the woofer is in the database...... When you try the woofer in a ptiomum config (again, it's a JBL application and the woofer is in the database provided by JBL....) you get a box of 42 litres..... I don't get it:dont-know!

please help anyone.....explain...The large box will give you a chance of extended bass, especially with room loading or EQ. The smaller one will give you a very good mid bass response... which is a more typical application for that woofer.

Widget