CD player suggestions

[Krunchy]

Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for good quality CD players in the $200.00 - $300.00 range. I have an Adcom gcd 750 that I really like and a Cambridge Audio one but they are more than I want to spend for secondary players.
Opinions/remarks welcome. :)
Thank you!

[readswift]

http://mestertuning.freeweb.hu/dac.php

[Krunchy]

Thank you guys! May have just scored a GCD 750. I must say that I tend to lean towards the single platter variety.
The hunt continues :D

[Rolf]

I cant give you any recommendation in that price range, but a Burmester will guarantee your satisfaction.

[Krunchy]

Hello Rolf!
That Burmester better be damn good, found one, Burmester Rondo 992 on audiogon for $1,500.00 (retailed for 4k),..... :hmm:....thats definitely out of my price range.
I'm sure its a fine machine, I'll have to wait till my royalties from the Lucille Ball clam sculptures start rolling in....any day now! :bouncy:

Thank you my friend

[Rolf]

Hello Rolf!
That Burmester better be damn good, found one, Burmester Rondo 992 on audiogon for $1,500.00 (retailed for 4k),..... :hmm:....thats definitely out of my price range.
I'm sure its a fine machine, I'll have to wait till my royalties from the Lucille Ball clam sculptures start rolling in....any day now! :bouncy:

Thank you my friend

:D As we all know. ... good sound is not for free.

[Krunchy]

I certainly hope not! :D where would we all be? & besides, what is these days?...... but there's always something! and thats the fun part ;) .

[remusr]

Onkyo makes some musical CD players on the lower-price end. Ayre and others make some special players on the other end!

[greyhound]

if im allowed to give my humble opinion.

almost all cd players sound exactly the same. doesnt matter if there 40 pounds or 4.
doesnt matter if there 200 dollar or 5000,-
if a player sounds different like mine its due to distortion. usually in het HF output. i like it.

just get one that looks nice en has a decent drive. like philips cdm drivers.



ive read about several blind tests where people couldnt hear the difference between a decent sony and a expensive Wadia

[Rolf]

if im allowed to give my humble opinion.

almost all cd players sound exactly the same. doesnt matter if there 40 pounds or 4.
doesnt matter if there 200 dollar or 5000,-
if a player sounds different like mine its due to distortion. usually in het HF output. i like it.

just get one that looks nice en has a decent drive. like philips cdm drivers.



ive read about several blind tests where people couldnt hear the difference between a decent sony and a expensive Wadia

We are about 20 people who are about to start a "blind test". I will post the result when we are done. I think in Mach sometime.

Most people I know, even if they don't care about the sound, have no problem hearing quality differences between a normal priced CD player and a "hi end CD player.

[greyhound]

when you set up a blind test make sure that every player will be heard at exactly the same sound level.
some expensive players have up to 4 volt :rockon2:putput and will sound louder (= more impressive) then a player with the normal 2 volt:snore: output.

some pink noise , a DB meter and someone who writes down the settings on the volume knob will do the trick.

player 1 is 98 db with volume at (try to be precise here) 11óclock
player 2 is 98 DB with the volume on 10óclock

or make some little mark on the amp with a small sticker.

if all the music is played equally loud the test is more reliable.


and ask yourself this question.
"whats in a cd player that actually makes a sound" in stead of just passing a signal.
have fun on your test please PM me with the results.:)
i might miss them.

[Krunchy]

Thank you guys for your imput, I really appreciate it, I trully believe you all have valid points/convictions. As long as ones enjoyment of music is on the up-wing then all is well (or at least heading in the right direction) as far as I am concerned.

Rolf, let us all know how the blind tests go if you seriously go forward with this, regardless of the results :)

[Mr. Widget]

if im allowed to give my humble opinion.

almost all cd players sound exactly the same. doesnt matter if there 40 pounds or 4.That hasn't been my experience... I have found that even comparing a couple of low priced players ($200-$400) they sounded obviously different. However I would not say that one sounded obviously better than the other.

The best CD sound I have heard in my system was using a mid priced, ($1200) player as a transport and using an external DAC. The sound stage opened up, the highs were slightly less edgy, and there was slightly more "air" or transparency... all of these improvements were similar to the improvements one hears in an analog system, though not as extreme. If you are one who thinks that CD sound is as good or better than analog, then there is no need to spend the money on an expensive player or quality external DAC.


Widget

[Rolf]

when you set up a blind test make sure that every player will be heard at exactly the same sound level.
some expensive players have up to 4 volt :rockon2:putput and will sound louder (= more impressive) then a player with the normal 2 volt:snore: output.

some pink noise , a DB meter and someone who writes down the settings on the volume knob will do the trick.

player 1 is 98 db with volume at (try to be precise here) 11óclock
player 2 is 98 DB with the volume on 10óclock

or make some little mark on the amp with a small sticker.

if all the music is played equally loud the test is more reliable.


and ask yourself this question.
"whats in a cd player that actually makes a sound" in stead of just passing a signal.
have fun on your test please PM me with the results.:)
i might miss them.

We are a serious club with interests in sound and equipment. We have access to all necessary "gadgets" needed to set up the systems to make a blind test, so don't worry.

When done, I post the result.

[Rolf]

Thank you guys for your imput, I really appreciate it, I trully believe you all have valid points/convictions. As long as ones enjoyment of music is on the up-wing then all is well (or at least heading in the right direction) as far as I am concerned.

Rolf, let us all know how the blind tests go if you seriously go forward with this, regardless of the results :)

Will do.:)

[greyhound]

That hasn't been my experience... I have found that even comparing a couple of low priced players ($200-$400) they sounded obviously different. However I would not say that one sounded obviously better than the other.

The best CD sound I have heard in my system was using a mid priced, ($1200) player as a transport and using an external DAC. The sound stage opened up, the highs were slightly less edgy, and there was slightly more "air" or transparency... all of these improvements were similar to the improvements one hears in an analog system, though not as extreme. If you are one who thinks that CD sound is as good or better than analog, then there is no need to spend the money on an expensive player or quality external DAC.


Widget


we are a group of about 50 people :D that ar going to do a listening test with anologue and digital recordings from the same master tape.
so what exactly will be the difference between a record and a cd when they both come from exactly the same source. were especialy interested in dynamics and wheter you can hear distortion in the higher frequencies.


@ rolf. using electronics to level the output is a better way. we have also done that.
luckely we have some tech heads .
the way i described is the way i do test at home..
it does the trick

[pos]

What kind of master tape is it?

[greyhound]

What kind of master tape is it?

i believe its a DAT tape.

on of the forum mods is also owner of a recording studio.
he sid that he thinks he can arrange recordings from 1 master. album aswell as cd.
but he wasnt sure yet.
http://www.beaufortstudio.nl/index.php?pg=4

apparatuur means equipment
he prefers the analogue masterrecording

[SEAWOLF97]

That hasn't been my experience... I have found that even comparing a couple of low priced players ($200-$400) they sounded obviously different. .Widget

Absolutly agree ....I have a Carver CD that is not nearly as neutral as all the others and produces much more bass.

[greyhound]

Absolutly agree ....I have a Carver CD that is not nearly as neutral as all the others and produces much more bass.


nothing wrong with that but I think it has to be distortion that causes these differrences.

[Mr. Widget]

so what exactly will be the difference between a record and a cd when they both come from exactly the same source.First of all you must use an "analog" record... if you use a vinyl record that was originally recorded or mastered in the digital domain the differences can shrink dramatically.

You must also realize that most vinyl albums use compression and have a bit of a pumped up and slightly soft bottom end due to issues with the record manufacturing process and inherent limitations of that medium.

The best comparison between analog and CDs would be an analog master tape and a CD. If you listen to the high rez digital master you should hear a sound that is very close to the analog and perhaps better especially on the lower frequencies... a comparison between the digital master and the filtered and down sampled "red book" CD should also be very telling... it will show you just how much is lost.

Even with the very real short comings of the vinyl record, comparing a well made vinyl album with a CD will show you what is lost in the low rez world of digital... not all CDs are created equally though and some are much better than others. Typically a CD will sound more centrally focused... approaching mono, and the apparent sound stage will lose depth and width. The top end will be a little hard sounding and the sense of "air" or the quality that cymbals, triangles, and many other instruments have where it seems the sound tapers off and extends beyond our hearing becomes truncated.

You don't need exceptional hearing or even sophisticated gear to hear this. I have played comparison demos for fellow "audiophiles" and for average people who don't even own a boombox... no one has ever not heard the differences.

I am not saying that a CD is unlistenable... I listen to them for most of listening, but for a really enjoyable experience you should spin some vinyl at least once in a while.


Widget

[jblnut]

I completely and totally agree with Mr. Widget on this. I have done many comparisons for friends, family and neighbors and the results are always the same, "Wow, I didn't know records could sound better than a CD". Unfortunately, the Redbook audio CD format is just not "high def" enough to be totally transparent in the recording and reproduction of music. If you have a good enough sound system, you can hear its limitations. This isn't a condemnation of all that's digital (as SACD and even DVD-Audio are pretty spectacular), it's just the fact that a 25-year old standard based on 16-bit 44khz samples is getting long in the tooth.

Getting back on topic, I am of the opinion that CD players are not worth spending thousands of dollars on.
That being said there are differences that can be heard. For example some testing at a friend's house between the A/D section of his Toshiba DVD player and the same CD played through a Lucid A/D outboard converter clearly showed the inferiority of the Toshiba A/D section.
Bass was much better on the Lucid and there was a little more "air" as well. However, playing some LPs after that quickly rendered the experiment moot - we didn't wish to continue listening to CD's :). Keep in mind this was done with some pretty good vinyl gear (Modded Linn LP12 and Sumiko Blue Point Special) and a very nice Conrad Johnson tube preamp. Plugging in a $100 ebay turntable into the "phono" section of a modern A/V receiver is not likely to endear anyone to the format...

jblnut

[Ian Mackenzie]

I tend to agree. But its all by degree.

Some CD's are far beter than others.

Chesky, Blue Note and some other labels are quite good.

On certain CD's there is not a lot in it between SACD and standard Red Book. I did that test with the DA10 Lavy Dac. As mentioned previously there is improved dynamics, bass and a better top end. Its takes a bit of fiddling to get it right. You need a good transport and a good digital cable.

But I must say its easlier to (cheaper) to approach vinyl with a reasonable priced SACS player and disks.

In repect to Cd player comparisions discussed earlier there are a lot of machines that are mediocre and beyond that there is alot to be said for the non over samping dac chips and upsampling which help create a more analogue sound.

Both systems improve the accuracy of the DA Cd Red book process but are not perfect.

You need to spend money to get a good front end in the vinyl department to appreciate what good viyl is about.

I tend to use the analogy that sound Cd is like building blocks..big and chunky but not much resolution compared to vinyl which can have far better fine resolution.

Ian

[Rolf]

Hi Friends.

I have said this ones before, and this is the second time. WHY?

Because I believe in talking, not violence.

Technology is going backwards?

In the beginning we had Edison's "Mary had a little lamb" on a "roll"?

Then we got it on a "stone" disk.

Then we got got it on Vinyl, and then we got it on CD, DVD and ?

How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on? I have heard some people say: "the wort thing that has happen is the introduction of stereo".

Some live in a world that has past away... gone ... and that is is the analog world.

Why can't you just accept that the world today IS digital? and try to do the best of it, instead of claiming "it was better before"?

Idiot's! Live and let live today! not in the past. ... Or do you wish to be back at the time "Mary had a little Lamb"?

I believe SOME of you really will that, and I am sorry for you.

[readswift]

lol ? :)

im living in the past cause current way of thinking is 5 layer PCB board, 1 cent opamp ( 4580 fame) , 10 cent delta sigma converter.

[rs237]

Hello Rolf,

You always believe everything new is better?

regards

juergen

PS: 90% of every major speaker manufacturers use to your presentations as a source of vinyl, not CD

[readswift]

for your interest, TI resumed production of Burr-Brown's big kid r2r , PCM1704 full time , no longer NRND. Actually they put PCM54 -56 on NRND.

[Rolf]

Hello Rolf,

You always believe everything new is better?

regards

juergen

PS: 90% of every major speaker manufacturers use to your presentations as a source of vinyl, not CD

No, I do not believe everything new is better. But regarding sound source, Yes. I have tried listening to "vinyl rigs" that cost about $25000 compared to a CD Player about $1000, and the difference is close to zero. So why pay 25 if you get about the same for 1????

As I said, we are about to do some serious tests. I will inform all about the result.

[rs237]

As I said, we are about to do some serious tests. I will inform all about the result.


I look forward.

regards
juergen

[Krunchy]

Hi Friends.
I have said this ones before, and this is the second time. WHY? How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on?

Hello Rolf!
Dude, you may be taking this way too personally, I do not know if "digital denial" is prevalent here (on the forum & in general) but I do'nt think that is the case. We are all aware that digital music is here to stay, for sure, but that doesnt mean that most people will nescessarily embrace it and all its ramificationsl. Personally I cant get into mp3s or i tunes, they just annoy me and want nothing to do with them. I like something more tangible, the only good thing about them that I see is they are convineint to transport and store and would consider them solely in that light otherwise I'll pass & live in the past gladly. In relation to digital music, and the "it was better before syndrome" that you mentioned, some people might really believe that and no amount of arguing, data, or money/gear or evidence to the contrary will ever change their mind (you know the type), but I think most people (conciously on unconciously) are just fond of playing analog music because it makes them feel good. Probably brings back memories of their yout, and the ritual of playing records and things happen in their brains and chemicals (legal ones, produced by the body) are released into the old blood stream and they feel good, hence analog is "good!" and its all very subtle but its happening on some level.
There is a simple pleasure that is derived from playing a record that will never be duplicated by a cd much less mp3's & itunes and it has nothing to do with the quality of sound being produced by the record player or the other equipment being used to generat that sound.

"Some live in a world that has past away... gone ... and that is is the analog world."
The mass production of anlog music may be gone (though not entirely, some is till being produced, but nothing compared to when it was the prominent medium) but the format and plenty of material still remains and will probably never be gone entirely. Think about how many records were produced...millions. Getting back to the subject at hand, as has been stated in other thread, some analog music is better than digital and some of it is not, ultimately people will gravitate to what they like and are comfortable/familiar with regardless of wether in actuallity it is inferior or superior to something else or not. Something that is expensive is not always better and something cheap is not always crap (to put it bluntly), it always comes down to personal preference and that is a whole 'nother ball of wax entirely, as they say.

Now Rolf, when you go and do your test please do not use a $40.00 cd player :D that would not be fair! (use at least a $50.00 player:rotfl: just kidding) you know what I mean, keep it real (not in a hip hop kind of way).
I am aware that you have some very nice cd players and turntables as well, if you do not mind me asking, just out of curiosity, what kind of music do you like, what is your power source and most importantly what speakers do you play your music through?
Have fun and most importantly, enjoy your music, regardless of what format you use. :)

[Krunchy]

Now how about some cd player suggestions?! :D

[hjames]

Why can't you turn your back and walk away?
Why can't you let the folks who believe differently just exist - you KNOW you won't change their beliefs.
They know they won't change yours.

They don't HAVE to believe what you believe about sound.

Insults won't change that, and is just rude behavior from you.




Hi Friends.

I have said this ones before, and this is the second time. WHY?

Because I believe in talking, not violence.

Technology is going backwards?
...
How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on? I have heard some people say: "the wort thing that has happen is the introduction of stereo".

Some live in a world that has past away... gone ... and that is is the analog world.

Why can't you just accept that the world today IS digital? and try to do the best of it, instead of claiming "it was better before"?

Idiot's! Live and let live today! not in the past. ... Or do you wish to be back at the time "Mary had a little Lamb"?

I believe SOME of you really will that, and I am sorry for you.

[invstbiker]

OPPO 981

[readswift]

TECHNICS SL-P770 TECHNICS SL-P990 TECHNICS SL-P999

[SEAWOLF97]

How come it is sooooo difficult to accept that the technology is moving on?
Idiot's! Live and let live today! not in the past. ...
I believe SOME of you really will that, and I am sorry for you.

Technology is going backwards?



so then I am assuming that you have the latest JBL speakers ?? ( and not those of past technology) :)

funny how the backwards technologies of tube amplification and vinyl source is so popular now ??

[Ian Mackenzie]

Krunchy,

I would be interesting to hear impressions of the Sony PS3.

It has very good specs and blows a lot of DVd/universal players out of the water on the video front.

I tend to think digital should where possible be treated as a universal platform and in that respect the PS3 does a lot of things very well.

Granted I have not personally listened to the Cd play back ..perhaps some other have.

In Rolf's post above its hard to know if he is joking to not.

I dont think there is a lot of credence to the way he is trying to make his point on the $25K versus $1K thing. What was the specific equipment used? What disks were played? Were the loudspeakers Everests or L26's? I not not sure why he intends to do more tests having made that sort of statement public knowledge.

Opinions are just that and you cant speak for what other people appreciate nor can you expect everyone to fully agree with your own ideals. That is why I take other peoples comments and preferences with a grain of salt when I'm deciding what equipment I prefer and what I can afford. Some stuff will work for some but not others and that's how it is.

On that point the entire Hifi magazine industry would go out of business overnight if what Rolf is suggesting is true and we mere mortals should take his comments as fact.

As for those who have invested in a good vinyl system they know otherwise...and they probably stopped reading this thread a while back...stop giggling.:)

I doubt it its even true ..or someone has serious hearing issues.:o:

Back OT there are some interesting reasonably priced players drifting on to the market. Manufacturers are now making respectable players at reasonable prices. No they are not the ultimate or perhaps close to being tonally accurate but they are not nasty to the ear like a lot a budget players in years gone by. The dac chips have come a long way in recent times. But you won't find low jitter phase locked super clocks and other snazzy things like a zillion khertz oversampling and tube output stages in the mass market players.

Ian

[Rolf]

Thank you friends for all the replies. Very interesting to read different opinions.

Krunchy: "bringing back memories". Sure. Last night me and my wife was playing The Beatles "Love CD", and was talking about what memories some of the songs gave us. At the time of the memories there was no CD, only vinyl, so I do not believe that playing it on vinyl will give us better or worse memories.:)

No, we will not use a $40 - $50 CD player. Probably $400 - $500 in the budget system, and a $10 - 15000 in the hi-end setup.

What music do I like? Well, Frank Zappa is one of my favorites. Dire Straits, Enigma, Enja, Madonna ... the list is going on... In shorts, I like many types of music, depending in what kind of mode I am in to play. What I don't like is "bunga bunga" and purly computer based music. Like real music played by people.

My equipment? Burmester CD player, EAD pre/prosessor, Perreaux 350 (bass) + 200 (the rest) (soon 4x750) Power amps. Sony DVD player/recorder. As I do not watch so many DVD's this one is a "budget" player, ($1000) and is good enough for me. Speakers is JBL 4343B, with JBL electronic crossover.

SEAWOLF97: As you can read, no Everest, but I was talking source here, not speakers;).

hjames: I really hope i did not insult anybody. If so, I am sorry. Did not mean to.:o:

[timc]

Krunchy: My recomandation would be a used Rotel RCD-02 or 06. Otherwise i guess the REGA Apollo could be bought second hand for slightly more. Both are excellent players.


Rolf: I have to disagree with you about CD vs. analouge. The very best sound i have heard have come from Vinyl. The CD-players used for comparison was in no way cheap ones.


-Tim

[Rolf]

Rolf: I have to disagree with you about CD vs. analouge. The very best sound i have heard have come from Vinyl. The CD-players used for comparison was in no way cheap ones.


-Tim

That is ok. Then we can agree to disagree? Can't we?:D

[timc]

Of course we can. Is'nt that what makes this hobby so interessting?



-Tim

[Mr. Widget]

I have tried listening to "vinyl rigs" that cost about $25000 compared to a CD Player about $1000, and the difference is close to zero.


What music do I like? Well, Frank Zappa is one of my favorites. Dire Straits, Enigma, Enja, Madonna ... When you make your comparisons you need to make sure the music was originally recorded with analog tape... the newer digital masters are quite good, but if you use recordings made in the 80's many artists used digital equipment that was no better or only slightly better than CDs and a vinyl album will sound almost identical to the CD.

Widget

[89-300ce]

I think in the moderate system price range digital will outperform vinyl.

Also there is degradation of the vinyl. Play an LP 50 times and then compare it back to back to a fresh one. :crying:

I was religious about vinyl, resisting digital for decades trying to re-convert my friends. In the end I've become much more pragmatic and listen to CD's for day to day stuff.

Also my Nitty Gritty won't fit in my rack.

If you spend the money then yeah, vinyl being analog, seems to have no limits.

Jorg

[Mr. Widget]

I think in the moderate system price range digital will outperform vinyl.I guess you have to define moderate, but since most people want convenience, there is a ton of affordable analog gear out there that is pre-remote... you can get an Apt, or PS Audio, or even a Hafler pre with phono stage at quite low prices and there are several quite decent brand new turntables in the under $500 price range... I'd put any of these preamp and turntable combos up against any CD player at any price point.


Also there is degradation of the vinyl. Play an LP 50 times and then compare it back to back to a fresh one. :crying:Absolutely... vinyl is full of it's own evils. You get to listen to a whopping 22 minutes before you have to get up, the records get dirty and must be cleaned, they wear out, they have surface noise, they use too much compression in the mix, the bass can sound flabby and on an on... but if you can overlook their short comings, they offer a sound that no CD can match.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Mr Widget makes a good point about vinyl quality.

I used to buy all fully imported pressings from the UK and the USA. There was a lot of variation in quality between some labels. Local pressings of the samle label were crap.

For a while I was buying Mobil Fidelty pressings ..180 gram. They are long gone but you can still find other good labels on dedicated web sities and there is a some new stuff still being pressed.

This of course is half the fun of using vinyl.

Next is a good cartridge. Spend as much as you can afford on a new cartridge http://www.needledoctor.com/. Then there are phono stages and turntables. http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Debut-III-Turntable-Multicolor_3?sc=2&category=352

With vinyl there is lot more within the practical scope of the user to get real improvements relative to digital.

When you are done compare the Sheffield Lab drum test on your JBL's (if you can find it) to any CD.


During the 80's I held off buying a CD player and eventually bought a Luxman 105U. It was one of the better Cd players of the day but it was no match for my TT using good vinyl.


Ian

[rs237]

Hello Ian,

Sheffield Lab is a good tip. I have some Sheffield Lab records, known by some as the CD version. Vinyl is also the clear winner. Charly Antolini has some 1978 speakers destroyed, vinyl course. The CD is just a tired copy.

regards

juergen

[SEAWOLF97]

back to topic ...........:)

another thing you might consider Krunchy is the minidisk. I've always liked recording "off the air". R2R is not practical anymore , cassette has its problems, but MD makes great copies. VERY happy with it.

It was discussed how records wear out .... dub one to MD on the first play and the music will always sound new.

MD vs. DAT thread....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=193506&highlight=mini#post193506

they are digital and sound great, a very good quality one can be had for under $150, disks are about a dollar , they are editable , and I really cant tell the sound from CD ( REALLY !!! I have dubbed vinyl and CD to MD and very few could tell the difference on A/B tests) The reviews call this one an "ES" w/o the badge

[greyhound]

every cd player from Sony will give years of listening pleasure and wont break down. when theres ES its realy okay.
again my advice will be to check teh drive. philips simply makes the best ones. look for cdm1 and it wont ever fail you.
teac makes some nice drives vdrs
and sony

[Krunchy]

Thank you guys, thank you :) I sincerely appreciate all your comments and suggestions. There is a lot of food for thought here and it all is a big help to me, I mean it. I mosy along through the various threads here and am always learning something new or see things from a different perspective. My "sound" and my enjoyment of music has increased by leaps and bounds since I came upon this place and I owe many thanks to you all, directly and indirectly, for all that is discussed here has a bearing upon ones view one way or another.


Seawolf,
I always liked the minidisc format, I do not know why they never really cought on, they were not embraced as they should have been IMO. When they first came out I thought they were going to do away with the regular cd's but alas it never came to be. BTW, I picked up one of those APT's, very cool little unit, Digging it!

Thank you my friends, and now I'm going to go and play a little music :bouncy:

[SEAWOLF97]

Seawolf,
I always liked the minidisc format, I do not know why they never really cought on, they were not embraced as they should have been IMO. When they first came out I thought they were going to do away with the regular cd's but alas it never came to be. BTW, I picked up one of those APT's, very cool little unit, Digging it!


As I understand it, the MD was and still is huge in Japan. The MD users are a very rabid group ( http://www.minidisc.org/index.php ) .....I like it for "off air" because if I record something and then change my mind, it can be deleted. Also the unit acquired has keyboard port and I can title the disk and each track and the names display on the front. If mine broke, I would get another.

APT/Holman !!!!! series 1 or 2 ??? my 1 is built like a tank. Did you get the owners manual ?? It is incredible. pics ?? :applaud: ( you will like it )

[readswift]

i dont recommend sony because they are doing bitstream ( 1-bit) conversion. Phase noise aka. Jitter affects that system very bad. On the other side , multibit r2r is friendly when it comes to tolerating jitter. The technics players I recomended are the best in the price range because afaik the 2 pcm56 are shared between + and - polarity, resulting in sign magnitude conversion, just like top-tier Burr Brown ICs.

[Krunchy]

Minidisc, I can see the Japanese really liking the format (thanks for the link) why not, it is so versatile, that is why I am baffled that it never got big here (well, we like things big dont we :D). You bring up some very good points about its user friendlyness.

The APT, I am not sure if its S1 or S2 (where does it list that??) the manual/book is yellow but it does not mention the series. It looks just like the picture you posted, unfortunately I cannot take any pictures right now as our camera is MIA, cant find it anywhere, hope its not lost :(, either that or I will find it according to the laws of the univers...after I have purchased a new one..Doh!. It is built like a tank, I only wish more things were built like that, its a sad state of affairs the way things are built nowadays. Yeah its a great little unit I got it set up right now w/the L166's...most enjoyable!
There are two of them on epey right now, just watching them, there's other stuff on my list at the moment.


Readswift, thanks again, I'll keep an eye out for them, none on ebay at the moment.

[SEAWOLF97]

The APT, I am not sure if its S1 or S2 It is built like a tank, I only wish more things were built like that, its a sad state of affairs the way things are built nowadays. Yeah its a great little unit I got it set up right now w/the L166's...most enjoyable!
There are two of them on epey right now, just watching them, there's other stuff on my list at the moment.

unfortunately I cannot take any pictures right now as our camera is MIA, cant find it anywhere, hope its not lost :(,


The 2 on eBay are S1's. The S2 (as I recall) is low profile and black and has far fewer controls. One of those on the bay surely came from a smokers home...cud use some detailing.

yup, take an hour to read the yellow manual. Bet you learn some things and will appreciate the unit even more . It was really designed with vinyl in mind...not an afterthot like many others. (there is even a hidden L R trim pot for the phono cart, plus settings for different arms/carts)...GOOD FIND !!!!! :applaud::applaud::applaud:

lost camera ??? I can almost guarantee that it is in "the last place you look"

[JBLOG]

If you want to have some fun try the Sony Playstation 1 (Model SCPH-1001 only!) How can you go wrong for a few bucks + shipping?

If you want something new, you can't beat an Oppo for the price! (A multitasking darling)

[readswift]

If you want to have some fun try the Sony Playstation 1 (Model SCPH-1001 only!) How can you go wrong for a few bucks + shipping?

If you want something new, you can't beat an Oppo for the price! (A multitasking darling)

pls stop this playstation talk, its retarded

[ARRAY]

Hi Krunchy, in your quest for a CD player, you may not wish to turn your nose up at an old Kyocera. They made some real fine players, especially in their upper echelon line-up.

[Krunchy]

Hi Krunchy, in your quest for a CD player, you may not wish to turn your nose up at an old Kyocera. They made some real fine players, especially in their upper echelon line-up.
Hello ARRAY, thanks for the suggestion, I never heard of that brand but it does look like a nice unit. :)



The 2 on eBay are S1's. The S2 (as I recall) is low profile and black and has far fewer controls. One of those on the bay surely came from a smokers home...cud use some detailing.
S1 Then, grey finish, looks like it can take a beating. I know the one on ebay that you are referring to, but that may be a good thing, it probably works fine and just needs some TLC, that one could be a good deal.
Its cool that the unit is geared toward phonographs, got my eye on some right now. I am itching to bust out the vinyl, I have not played any since 2000, moved, got married, bought house, kid, fixed house, sold house, kid, bought house, got JBL's :D. Fortunately unlike many of my friends I never got rid of my records when cd's took over, cant wait. I just received a crown amp that I got on epey so I'll probably hook it up to that, I'm curious to see what they sound like.
The camera is unfortunate, I am sure we'll find it, but who knows when.
Off to inspect and clean that amp and refoam a couple of drivers, fun fun fun fun fun!

[SEAWOLF97]

S1 Then, grey finish, looks like it can take a beating. I know the one on ebay that you are referring to, but that may be a good thing, it probably works fine and just needs some TLC, that one could be a good deal.
Its cool that the unit is geared toward phonographs, got my eye on some right now. I am itching to bust out the vinyl, I have not played any since 2000, moved, got married, bought house, kid, fixed house, sold house, kid, bought house, got JBL's :D. Fortunately unlike many of my friends I never got rid of my records when cd's took over, cant wait. I just received a crown amp that I got on epey so I'll probably hook it up to that, I'm curious to see what they sound like.
The camera is unfortunate, I am sure we'll find it, but who knows when.
Off to inspect and clean that amp and refoam a couple of drivers, fun fun fun fun fun!

I dont think you know yet what a great unit this is ...you will

read about it --->>>>
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/preamplifiers/apt-holman/PRD_118156_1591crx.aspx

[Krunchy]

You are probably right, what I dont know has filled volumes already, here is a prime example....classic Fred. Cleaned up the Crown, it seems in good condition, but when I went to hook up the pre amp to my complete and utter amazement I found that there were no XLR or RCA inputs....:homer:! Now I find out from Scotty (thank you Sir) that it needs an input balancing option & a special round plug with multi pins and a plug in for balanced inputs which used to be available in 2 ways, transformer balanced and active electronic balanced. So the odyssey continues.

Interesting reviewers, even Jonathan Gourd (JG), who inspected many of these units checked in with a review, his innitials are probably on yours as well. Thank you for the link ;)

[BMWCCA]

Cleaned up the Crown, it seems in good condition, but when I went to hook up the pre amp to my complete and utter amazement I found that there were no XLR or RCA inputs....! Now I find out from Scotty (thank you Sir) that it needs an input balancing option & a special round plug with multi pins and a plug in for balanced inputs which used to be available in 2 ways, transformer balanced and active electronic balanced. So the odyssey continues.What did you end up with? A D75A? Welcome to the world of Crown Neutrik (Speakon) connectors. Maybe the bulkier PS-200 was a better choice? Or did you get a PS-200 and now you want the MOD-X adapter for the muti-pin output jack to run XLR?

[Krunchy]

Hi BMWCCA!
I got the PS 400, I gotta say that is one solid unit, from looking at the pictures I never thought it would be that heavy, its design is very deceiving. When I opened it up to have a peek I was impressed by its straight forward layout, no nonsense in there. Luckily it arrived in very good shape, the guy actually did nice job in packing it. The Mod X i guess is what I was referring to, where do you get those, do they come up on ebay? I like the unit and am looking forward to seeing what it sounds like, when I go for the PS 200 I will keep this little scenario in mind :D

[greyhound]

i dont recommend sony because they are doing bitstream ( 1-bit) conversion. Phase noise aka. Jitter affects that system very bad. On the other side , multibit r2r is friendly when it comes to tolerating jitter. The technics players I recomended are the best in the price range because afaik the 2 pcm56 are shared between + and - polarity, resulting in sign magnitude conversion, just like top-tier Burr Brown ICs.


your absolutely right.
problem is that the human ear is not capable of hearing that. thats why my choice will be with a nice driver that wont fail you
http://www.marantzphilips.nl/index.asp?strPage=Daclist
great list. tecnics also uses the cdm drivers so take the best of both worlds. this list is realy usefull when buying a new or old player.

[Robh3606]

Cleaned up the Crown, it seems in good condition, but when I went to hook up the pre amp to my complete and utter amazement I found that there were no XLR or RCA inputs....:homer:!

Hello Krunchy

You can use the 1/4 plugs or the terminal strips. You don't have to run them balanced as long as you don't have any ground or noise issues. Mine are all run using the 1/4 plug inputs. No noise issues at all. Super quiet amps.

Rob:)

[SEAWOLF97]

Cleaned up the Crown, it seems in good condition, but when I went to hook up the pre amp to my complete and utter amazement I found that there were no XLR or RCA inputs....:homer:! Now I find out from Scotty (thank you Sir)

no, I dont think you need balanced i/p's. I had the same problem with my BGW amps (they only have 1/4 trs and xlr inputs ), and many in the forum suggested these ------>>>>>>>

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=090-285

and they worked perfectly ....$1.25 each !!!! ( you need two) and now you can go "RCA to 1/4" and installation takes about 12 nanoseconds (if you are slow, like me :))

[hjames]

Or get the shiney gold version of those RCA to 1/4 phone plugs at Radio Shark - You'll pay a bit more, but you save the shipping costs and you can have them tonight!

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103711

[greyhound]

i decided to get rid of the jacks and put some cinch in there. works better for me.

[greyhound]

You are probably right, what I dont know has filled volumes already, here is a prime example....classic Fred. Cleaned up the Crown, it seems in good condition, but when I went to hook up the pre amp to my complete and utter amazement I found that there were no XLR or RCA inputs....:homer:! Now I find out from Scotty (thank you Sir) that it needs an input balancing option & a special round plug with multi pins and a plug in for balanced inputs which used to be available in 2 ways, transformer balanced and active electronic balanced. So the odyssey continues.

Interesting reviewers, even Jonathan Gourd (JG), who inspected many of these units checked in with a review, his innitials are probably on yours as well. Thank you for the link ;)


have you checked the max output voltage of the pre and the max input on the crown?
i had to place some rothwell attenuators on the input of my bose 1801.
to avoid clipping when playing loud.

[Krunchy]

Thank you Rob, Seawolf & Heather, I will definitely try them out, Had company over today so things were on hold, will go to the Shack tomorrow and pick up a pair, I thought it would be much more complicated than that :) Yea!



have you checked the max output voltage of the pre and the max input on the crown?
i had to place some rothwell attenuators on the input of my bose 1801.
to avoid clipping when playing loud.
Hi Greyhound, do you use a regular voltage meter to check that? if it is I could pick one up tomorrow when I go to R.S. What am I looking for as far as "dangerous" levels??? :blink: This stuff is totally alien to me, I'm pretty handy but when it comes to electronics Im not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.

[greyhound]

Thank you Rob, Seawolf & Heather, I will definitely try them out, Had company over today so things were on hold, will go to the Shack tomorrow and pick up a pair, I thought it would be much more complicated than that :) Yea!



Hi Greyhound, do you use a regular voltage meter to check that? if it is I could pick one up tomorrow when I go to R.S. What am I looking for as far as "dangerous" levels??? :blink: This stuff is totally alien to me, I'm pretty handy but when it comes to electronics Im not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.


i just checked it with the company. mailed bose and bryston (that was my pre amp)to get the info.
somethimes you can download specs from the archives on their site.
you could check crowns site for that.
same for the device you'll put in front of it.

i have my philips cd player directly on the power amp . it has gains for volume. it has given the best results yet,
crown has gain doesnt it?
if it does try putting your cd player directly on it. :D you'll love it

[Krunchy]

Yes I have the specs on the crown, thank you.

[podger076]

Not that I have owned anything previously to compare with, I bought an new unmodded Music Hall CD25.2 from Underwood. I'm very happy with the sound, its built like a tank, and was reasonably priced.

[BMWCCA]

Krunchy,

Oh, I see now. The PS-400 is a horse! Yeah, as Heather said, just use RCA to 1/4" adapters. Available most anywhere. Good pro-instrument/sound shop can provide cables with male RCA on one end and 1/4" males on the other but it could be pricey. If rear depth isn't an issue, just use the adapters. While you're at it, get the Crown-standard Pomona plugs (dual bananas) for the speaker outs. Monster makes some that aren't too expensive ($15/pair) and are sold at Best Buy. Radio Shack carries plastic ones but often only in one color (red) and simple plastic that isn't a lot cheaper than the metal Monsters.
http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/2847/2847245_sb.jpghttp://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2265156w345.jpg

The PS-Mod/X adapters are silly, sometimes selling for less than shipping on Ebay and other times for way too much. I now have two and paid $11 for one ($2.95 plus shipping) off Ebay and another was included with a Crown-reconditioned PS-200 I bought for less than the owner's bill at Crown. Three adapters just sold as a bundle for $130 on Ebay.
http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/ca/b0/1923_1.JPG

[Krunchy]

Thank you BMWCCA, I will be heading to the Rshack later on today to pick up the 1/4" adapters. If the unit works well then I dont have to bother with the mod/x since I do not need XLR inputs unless I experience some sort of humming, but I will keep an eye out for them in the future. What are the advantages of the Pomona plugs (dual bananas) is it just a more convinent & quicker connection or is it something else.

[BMWCCA]

What are the advantages of the Pomona plugs (dual bananas) is it just a more convinent & quicker connection or is it something else.Yeah, they just plug in to the output terminals. No need to thread and tighten on the amp so less chance of shorted outputs and, if you want to swap L-to-R for testing or other purposes, it's very easy. You can also stack dual-bananas if you're bi-wiring or using more than one set of speakers (why you'd want to, I don't know, but certainly don't drop below 4 ohm resistance). It looks like dual-bananas actually fit some JBL speaker terminals, too, I think. Some 44xx monitors maybe? L20t?

I'm still getting a kick out of listening to my L20Ts with my second PS-400.
No such thing as too much clean power. :dancin:

[Krunchy]

No such thing as too much clean power. :dancin:
Sage advice :)

[Krunchy]

Got the adapters for the Crown (there were only two left at the shack) and hooked up the APT pre amp with my first (circa 1991) JVC cd player and am very pleased with whats coming out of the speakers :):):):D;)
Question, is it safe to turn up the controls on the Crown all the way up and then control the volume with the preamp, I've got them 3/4s of the way up now?

Jamming! :banana:



I bought an new unmodded Music Hall CD25.2 from Underwood. I'm very happy with the sound, its built like a tank, and was reasonably priced.
That looks like a very nice unit, ebay guy's asking 375, we'll see if anyone bites?
Thank you for the suggestion.

[johnaec]

Question, is it safe to turn up the controls on the Crown all the way up and then control the volume with the preamp, I've got them 3/4s of the way up now?While it's generally safe to turn up the amp controls, it's not necessarily best. The reason is that you're also turning up the amp's noise floor.

As an example, imagine you had a very low level coming from your preamp. You'd have to have the amp turned way up to amplify this signal enough, which means that you're also turning up the amp's background hiss, etc. But if you have a very strong signal coming from the preamp, you can leave the amp turned down, which means that the amp's inherent hiss is also turned down.

I generally start working from the front on back, i.e. - I run all the first volumes, (CD, Preamp, EQ, etc.), at about halfway up for normal listening, then bring the amp volumes up to the point that matches that. Once you've got these basic settings, control the amp from the preamp. If the amp is turned all the way up, you may find that even 1/4 "volume" on the preamp is now too loud, and your signal to noise ratio is likely not optimum.

John

[Krunchy]

Thank you John, that makes a lot of sense :o:

[johnaec]

Thank you John, that makes a lot of sense :o:Also, if any of the "front" units have meters, close to "0" on the meters is usually at the point where you get the best signal to noise ratio, (they usually run negative down from there, like -3, -10, etc.). Obviously, this isn't the case on the amp, (unless it also has input meters). Meters on most power amps are output meters, and are "0" at full rated output, so amp meters will generally be running several dB below that at normal listening levels.

John

[BMWCCA]

Question, is it safe to turn up the controls on the Crown all the way up and then control the volume with the preamp, I've got them 3/4s of the way up now?The Crown controls are input attenuators. It is my uneducated belief that you are not turning up the noise floor on the Crown when you adjust those controls but rather you might be affecting the noise level of your input source. A good rule of thumb is to set the Crown to where your loudest listening level occurs at about 75% of the pre-amp's volume control range. This should put it in the sweet spot for the pre-amp's output level for most listening situations without introducing noise from your pre-amp. We've discussed this before here and I asked the question at the Crown Forums here (http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1282&st=0&p=4624&#entry4624).

[SEAWOLF97]

imagine you had a very low level coming from your preamp. You'd have to have the amp turned way up to amplify this signal enough, which means that you're also turning up the amp's background hiss, etc. But if you have a very strong signal coming from the preamp, you can leave the amp turned down, which means that the amp's inherent hiss is also turned down.

from his preamp's (APT/Holman) review:

Dead quiet. Noise floor buried somewhere in China. Tone controls really control the tone(s). As explained elsewhere, the volume control is superb and ramps up/down the signal in a most natural way. Gobs of gain. MC/MM equalization flawless (as much as it can be). Headphone amp the best I've ever heard. Unit feels like you could hit it with a 2-pounder and it would still work OK.


I use this same preamp with my BGW 750D (giving me 450WPC for my 4 ohm speakers) and had the same amp gain setting questions...after a lot of screwing around, I just cranked the amp all the way up and have never had any problems.

[greyhound]

i was always told that turning the gains all the way open will give best results. usually a poweramp is always all the way open if there are no gains at all.
to make it perform at its peak its better to open up all the way.
use the pre amp for volume control.

hifichoice had an article that said the same.
but it your choice so experiment with it and just listen

[BMWCCA]

i was always told that turning the gains all the way open will give best results. usually a poweramp is always all the way open if there are no gains at all.
to make it perform at its peak its better to open up all the way.
use the pre amp for volume control.But that's just the point; you want the power amp inputs set to run the pre-amp where it gives the best results and that might be further up in its output range than a low-limit on the volume control provides. The amp cares not where its input attenuators are set, it's ready to produce up to maximum output depending on how much input it gets. With some pre-amps, the optimum setting may well be at zero attenuation on the power amp but that depends on the pre-amp since most pre-amps operate better (quieter) at half, or three-quarters on the volume pot.

Ask yourself: If there's no reason to ever do anything other than run input attenuators wide open, why do folks like Crown bother to put them there at all, much less offer accessory knobs that prevent unauthorized hands from changing those settings?

My JBL L20Ts are currently very happy powered by a Crown PS-400 running about 12-o'clock on the input attenuators and they fill the room with the Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control Four's superb volume pot set at around noon to two-o'clock. About the same setting I use for my 4412As with their PS-400 and DX4200 combo. Not too far off from the 030s and their Crown DC300A-II and DX4200. Don't be afraid to play with knobs, that's why god gave them to you. The world is not "flat".

[Rolf]

Amps with volume pots have "something in the path". Not necessary. Most hi-end power amps has not. They are always on full power. If a power amp makes noise, change it is my advice.

[BMWCCA]

Amps with volume pots have "something in the path". Not necessary. Most hi-end power amps has not. They are always on full power. If a power amp makes noise, change it is my advice.Not to beat a dead horse but . . . many won't agree. If hi-end you're referring to the jewelry many pay too much for to show off in their homes, maybe. If you're referring to the high-power workhorses of the serious sound-reproduction world, not so. And remember, on some amps input attenuators are on the back! They're not "volume pots", either.

http://www.instrumentpro.com/include/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/CROREF1.jpg&w=300&h=300&far=1&f=jpeg&bg=FFFFFF

[Krunchy]

Hi guys!
Long day, geting back to what we love...music (and gear :)).
I ran the Crown with the attenuators all the way up and the APT pre at about 11 o'clock and there is no humming or anything else for that matter, dead quiet. played some music and it sounded great. Then I tried the second scenario and had the pre set at 3 o'clock and the Crown set at 10 o'clock, again, no humming or anything else, music sounded fine as well. Conclusion, my layman's hearing was pleased with both experiences, maybe a little more bass with the first run but I'd be lying if I told you it was blatantly obvious for it was not, plus the volumes may not have been exactly the same. Therefore I deem the whole thing a success all around and am very happy with this set up :applaud: :)
One other thing, what exactly is the "output monitor" on the front of the unit & what does it do (monitor the output??? the output of what? :blink: the amp & why would you want to monitor that? just talking to myself again:D)

BMWCCA, what is that Crown pictured above, very sharp!

[Rolf]

My amps have no pots. Are you saying that I have payed to much for my amps ? ANY amps that have a pot-meter has something to hide.

My opinion.

[hjames]

My amps have no pots. Are you saying that I have payed too much for my amps ? ANY amps that have a pot-meter has something to hide.

My opinion.
I'd venture to say most all amps have a potentiometer somewhere, either for setting bias or input levels or something similar.
It may not be easily accessible, but its there (check your schematic).

[Rolf]

:barf:
I'd venture to say most all amps have a potentiometer somewhere, either for setting bias or input levels or something similar.
It may not be easily accessible, but its there (check your schematic).

Yes, but NO. You don't touch this if you are not a technician.

The amp sounds good enough.

Did you not read my earlier post?

Maybe you are better, but I still believe the ones that makes the amps are far more better then You ore Me.:barf:

[BMWCCA]

One other thing, what exactly is the "output monitor" on the front of the unit & what does it do (monitor the output??? the output of what? :blink: the amp & why would you want to monitor that? just talking to myself again:D)

BMWCCA, what is that Crown pictured above, very sharp!The output monitor is a headphone jack. Most headphones benefit from amplification. In the case of the Crowns, it's handy to hear what you're listening to if you don't want to hear it through the speakers. Rolf will tell you most high-line amps don't have those, either, and so that makes your Crown PS-400 not worthy. When the embarrassment becomes too much for you, please forward it to my home for wayward Crowns where we let them play all day and occasionally let them run at full tilt, just to show they still can

The amp in the photo is a Crown Reference 1 (http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/136734.pdf). 800w per-channel at 8ohms in stereo, 2,375w bridged. It has knobs so don't take it seriously! Here's Crown's take on the whole input attenuator trash-talking: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/137467.pdf

[Krunchy]

When the embarrassment becomes too much for you, please forward it to my home for wayward Crowns where we let them play all day and occasionally let them run at full tilt, just to show they still can :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Your benevolence knows no bounds!

"The output monitor is a headphone jack." Doh! the placement of it looked familiar to me but the terminolygy threw me off, though I must say it sounds more proffesional that "Headphones" :D

Yes, thank you for the link on gain staging, did not have a chance to read the whole thing this morning. Very informative :) that settles that!

[johnaec]

Here's Crown's take on the whole input attenuator trash-talking: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/137467.pdfThanks for posting that link! That's *exactly* what I was trying to say! :)

John