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Don McRitchie
03-06-2004, 12:26 PM
As should be obvious, I am extremely excited and appreciative about the Project May initiative. For the first time in twenty years, my audiophile craving has been re-awakened and I am filled with anticipation. Since I can't buy a patch to control these cravings, I did the next best thing for an interim fix - a pristine pair of Altec Model 19's.

The owner bought them new in 1982 along with a complete Sansui rack system consisting an AU 717, TU717, DC3110 and turntable. He moved them into a small appartment where he could not play them. They sat unused, covered with sheets for the next twenty years. While this sounds outlandish, it has been been verified by a close friend that knew the owner's family. I took a look at all of this today and everything looks brand new - particularly the 19's. He still has the shipping cartons for them and the sales tags are still hanging from the speaker controls. There is not a scratch on the cabinets and the drivers are perfect. Even the foam surround that was placed around the 811 horn is perfect. This is like finding an L100 with the original foam grills in perfect shape.

I picked up the lot this morning for around $1,000US and it all arrives tomorrow. Pictures will follow.

boputnam
03-06-2004, 12:39 PM
Nice "patch", dood! :thmbsup:

John
03-11-2004, 08:13 PM
Welcome to the model 19 club Don
That makes it 3 pairs in the peg!!!
Are those in Walnut or Oak ???:smthsail:

Ian Mackenzie
03-11-2004, 10:23 PM
Bo,

B/n you and Don we now have the dynamic duo...haha.

Actually I recall hearing a full demo by a dealer of the whole Altec range in the early 80's, the 19's and 15's were the pick of the bunch.

Ian

TimG
03-12-2004, 06:09 AM
Great, now the surround speaker problem is solved when the Project May arrives. Are you going to want to go with the same veneer on both systems?

4313B
03-12-2004, 07:02 AM
"Great, now the surround speaker problem is solved when the Project May arrives."

Definitely! The Project May thingies should (fingers crossed) make excellent rear channels for the Altecs! :p

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Definitely! The Project May thingies should (fingers crossed) make excellent rear channels for the Altecs! :p [/B]

Even if they don't, there's always the kitchen countertop. I'm sure they could give a Bose Wave radio a run for the money :p

BTW, there was a delivery screw up and I have yet to get the Altecs. They will be here later today.

4313B
03-12-2004, 09:38 AM
Oh! Raising the bar a bit lofty eh? :eek:

(Those Bose Wave doohickies are tough to beat, but only if you use a stick too small for the job)

boputnam
03-12-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Those Bose Wave doohickies are tough to beat... That's what's inside the 4345's. Don't tell Ian... :cool:

mikebake
03-12-2004, 09:46 AM
Altec 19's huh?
I'd like a pair!!
But get this; a guy is giving me a pair of vintage Koss 1A Electrostats, a 5 way full ESL design, this Saturday (driving up from Cinci).
I've helped him search for a good home for them, but most of the suitors are out of state and he needs them out of the house NOW (he just got married). Says he is well off and doesn't want money, just a good owner. By default, that will now be me. They weigh 200+ lbs. each. I've heard some interesting things about these; they were only made one year. Anyway. I'll play with them for awhile and then who knows, maybe they're a Project May auction item. Should be interesting.
I used to be a Magnepan guy, BTW. Sorry.
:rolleyes:

Like I need more big speaker stuff around the house. Any one of ya'll heard these??? They were supposed to be up there with some of the best ESL's?

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 11:19 AM
Well, I just got them and them and neither compression driver works. I am pissed. However, it's not as bad as I originally thought.

I thought I might have been scammed and that the tweeters were blown. However, I just finished talking to Bill Hanuschak and the fact that they are not working is consistant with their age. They are the original Model 19 will all Alnico drivers. The original 802's used in these systems used very fragile beryllium leads. After sitting for years, and then being powered up, they can break. I took off one of the driver covers, and sure enough, the tinsel lead is snapped right at the bend. Bill was kind enough to sell me new diaphragms at dealer cost and the seller has agreed to compensate me for this.

Everything appears to be taken care of, but it will be at least another week before I can enjoy them. Another unfortunate problem is that I had to take out the foam inserts to remove the horns and examine the drivers. While the foam was in pefect shape, it isn't any more. They broke up into numerous pieces as I removed them. However, I think I've found someone selling replacements. Otherwise, the speakers do look to be in very good shape. The wood finish is unmarked, but could use a good oiling. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

4313B
03-12-2004, 11:34 AM
"The wood finish is unmarked, but could use a good oiling. Any advice on this would be appreciated."

Brake fluid dood!

Oh wait, wrong thread... :slink:

boputnam
03-12-2004, 11:36 AM
:rotfl:

Where'd he go, anyway...?

4313B
03-12-2004, 11:48 AM
It wasn't pretty Bo...

55 gallon drum of Dot 3 in the back of a truck turning a corner on two wheels going 70 mph with the back gate down...

Guy sitting at the same corner in his car minding his own business (LE14A's piled up in the back seat)...

Good God man! Do I have to spell it out?

boputnam
03-12-2004, 11:49 AM
:nutz:

Man, I don't think I can stop laughing...!!

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 02:56 PM
Here's one of the 19's with the horn removed as I try to diagnose the problem.

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 02:58 PM
Here's the other with the horns in front.

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 03:00 PM
And here's the probem. Three of the four tinsel leads for the two diaphragms have snapped right at the 90 degree bend. Otherwise, the diaphragm and coils appear fine, with no sign of being over driven.

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 03:01 PM
And here's the Sansui rack that's headed straight to Ebay.

boputnam
03-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Hi, Don...

Great pics! Funniest, is seeing you, a sorta newbie to the vintage cult being taken to your knees (literally!! ;) ) with immediate diagnosis and repair. But, you've got better resources than we do! But you have got to get your shop outa the living room!

Those are beauties.

If I understand your foam insert issue - Giskard was helpful to me on that, but on my JBL motors. I'm sure you could cram some old socks in there until he can get some foam into the post to you (that you could trim to size). At least you could be listeing to them...

Shame there's no-way to repair that "tinsel" - those diaphragms look brand-new. That design is surely not road-worthy, though... :no:

Oldmics
03-12-2004, 03:40 PM
Hey Don
Just to let you know that some paperwork is on its way to you.If you want to include those non-working diaphragms on the return trip with the paper work,I would like to take a whack at repairing those tinsel leads with a graft of some sort.I"ve had success with it in the past.
Oldmics

mikebake
03-12-2004, 03:42 PM
Man, Don, those look in great shape. I remember that series of Sansui. Are they a hot ebay item?

Chas
03-12-2004, 03:43 PM
Don, the cabinets are gorgeous, nice buy! The Sansui integrated amp was a pretty nice amp at its price point, for a solid state amp if I recall. But, I do remember fixing a few, they all had the same problem.

My grey cells are fading, but there is either a jumper or a switch on the rear that separated the pre from the amp. The contact corrodes, I'd recommend you squirt some Caig in there.

The more I think about it, there I am sure it was a slide switch.

Charles.

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 03:44 PM
What's a shame is that these diaphragms are irreplaceable. For the first two years of Model 19 production, Altec produced a unique diaphragm that is considered their best sounding ever. Due to fragility problems as evidenced above, it was replaced with a more durable, but less accurate design. That is all that's available now.

At any rate, Bill Hanuschak was very good to me in selling replacements at dealer cost. Now, all I need is patience for them to arrive.

BTW, the foam inserts are not for the driver. They use felt pads for damping and they are fine. The foam surrounded the 811B horn on the front baffle and was used to both damp reflected sound off of the baffle and the ringing horn. If you look closely at the bottom right corner of the second Model 19 picture, you will see the shredded remains of one of the inserts. Someone on Ebay has been selling a few sets of replacements and I sent him an email to see if he has more for sale.

boputnam
03-12-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Don McRitchie
BTW, the foam inserts are not for the driver. ... Someone on Ebay has been selling a few sets of replacements and I sent him an email to see if he has more for sale. Ah, so now you have a true JBL weekend - sitting around just looking at them... :(

;)

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 04:09 PM
Just to let you know that some paperwork is on its way to you.If you want to include those non-working diaphragms on the return trip with the paper work,I would like to take a whack at repairing those tinsel leads with a graft of some sort.I"ve had success with it in the past.
Oldmics

Hi Olmics

I'd definitely like to take you up on that. Here's the detailed reason why. Last April, I met with the former Altec product manager that was responsible for the concept and design management for the Model 19. I told him that this was always my favourite Altec, in part, because the Tangerine phase plug resulted in true 20khz extension for the first time in an Altec 2-way design. That is when he let me in on a little secret.

The Tangerine had nothing to do with extended response on the 802-8G compression drivers. The Tangeringe was strictly a cost reduction excercise. Standard annular phase plugs contain numerous, precisely machined parts that take considerable labour to build. Altec wanted to replace this with a single piece phase plug that could be cast out of plastic and totally eliminate assembly costs. The result was the Tangerine. However, Altec was fully aware that their compression drivers of that time rolled off the high end response. They addressed this with a new diaphragm.

Throughout the 60's and 70's, there had been increasing pressure for Altec to increase the power handling of their drivers. They did this in two ways. First, they began increasing the guage of the aluminum diaphragm and surround for greater strength. They also shimmed the diaphragms to have greater clearance over the phase plug. This meant that they could have greater excursion without slapping into the phase plug. All of this conspired to reduce HF extension.

The 802-8G diaphragm was a back to basics design. It used a very thin guage of aluminum with absolutely minimal clearence over the phase plug. This worked in getting the best extension and transient response of any Altec driver ever made. However, they were fragile, and Altec began getting a lot of returns of damaged diaphragms on the pro side. As a result, they went to a more robust design after only two years. While not as bad as the 60's and early 70's designs, there was a noticable degradation in sound quality. That's why I'd love to be able to get them repaired.

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Hi Mike

The Sansui's seem to have some value. I think I may be able to get as much as $800 for the set if I am patient. That would bring my net cost for the 19's down to $200 :)

To Chas, there definitely is a slider switch at the back for the pre-main connection. I found it right off the bat as it was set to the wrong position when I got it and was therefore not working. Works fine now. As I said earlier, they are going up for sale immediately.

scott fitlin
03-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Don, Todd White told me the same thing about the Tangerine being a cost reducing measure instead of redesigning the phase plug. However, back in 1976-1984 we used to use Altec 808-8A drivers on Community fiberglass horns as tweeters, and when we first got them the tangerine wasnt yet introduced. They sounded good, but when the tangerines came out, our 808,s were retrofitted with them, no charge, and they DID make a substantial improvement!

To my ears these units, even though not really a tweeter, made some of the most outstanding highs Ive ever heard. Open, airy, and very extended!

Being that I still have them, a few weeks ago I took 2 of them to a freinds house and we hooked them up in place of his 2405 " slot " tweeters. Well, my buddy is telling me these will never sound as good as the slots and when we put music through them BOY was he surprised! They are as good today as they were in 1978. We played some very well recorded jazz and symphony pieces, and the shimmer, clean airy extension, and breathiness was absolutely amazing. What these things do for cymbals is incredible. Its such a believable sound. Imaging in the top octaves was outstanding as well. And my units date back to 1976 with diaphragms from the late 70,s !

Now Shorty wants me to sell 2 of my 8 to him!

I dont doubt Todd White, or Jim Dickinsons word that the Tangerines were cheaper and easier than redesigning the phase plugs, but in my honest opinion they do make a very audible improvement!

Jus my.02 cents.

:cool:

Don McRitchie
03-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Hi Scott

To be honest, I don't know what the truth is. I do know for a fact that the Model 19 HF response was like night and day compared to the 806/811 that I had in my Altec Santiagos. I swear that system had no response above 12khz and down significantly at 10khz.

However, I do recollect that the 19 still had the same ragged midrange of my old Santiagos that I have been told is strictly a result of the ringing 811. I know that later 811's had the webs cut and rubber dampers inserted in the cut. However, these are earlier versions with the welded webs. I think I'll still need an aesthetically pleasing way to damp these horns once I get the drivers working. Slapping auto undercoating on them is not an option.

scott fitlin
03-12-2004, 04:52 PM
We also had Altec horns for mids at that time in the 70,s and they did ring! We had 311-90,s and 811,s. We went with the JBL2395/2441 combination in 1980.

But the 808-8A,s, with Tangerines, sounded great crossed over at 8K on fiberglass small horns. And I was 15 at the time we put the tangerines in the drivers, my ears were still fresh and young, and I could definitely hear a big difference! Besides, we put the first array of four back up, and listened to them against the other four without the Tangerines, and you could hear the difference.

As for damping, our units originally were in fact slightly ringy, and we had the horn mouths sprayed with automotive paint. This wasnt actually done for sonic reasons, rather it was cosmetic! They wanted them to have a flashy look for the " Disco Era ", and metallic silver is what they became! But, the paint seemed to dampen the horns just enough to reduce the slight ring, without affecting the sound negatively.

Ian Mackenzie
03-12-2004, 04:59 PM
Don,

Regards the horn foam there maybe some alternatives .

Kent English co designer of the Rushmore at Passlabs claims to have resonant free Altec horns for his own system.

I will pm you his details

Ian:)

Alex Lancaster
03-12-2004, 05:14 PM
I´m no big Altec fan, however, the Tangerine looks like a better solution acoustically; Anybody care to share more secrets?