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cooky1257
12-21-2007, 06:12 AM
Hi all,
I'm a noob on here and having searched high and low without finding exactly what I need thought it time to ask.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19137
I recently picked up these of eBay, they sound great, have some nice Clash and Smiths history but are in need of some TLC;
4x2231a, 2 x2440, 2x2397's, 2x2405's, 2 x3105 xovers and a 5234 active xover.
Not bad for $700.
The cabs need some lovin if I'm to be allowed to keep them(WAF).
I intend to replace and/or double up the front baffle with some nice grained 'finished' plywood and utility satin dark grey the rest.
My main question is regarding the driver layout, in the TM1 and TM3 the UHF is much closer to the mid horn and this is an ideal opportunity to reposition things if it would be beneficial.
Could any forum members give me the benefit of their experience in this regard?
As a confirmed big Tannoy user since a lad I'm quite enjoying my move over to the dark side;-)
Thanks

speakerdave
12-21-2007, 09:16 AM
If it were I, I would not try to improve on Westlakes's system compromises--driver selection, crossover point, baffle layout--unless I had identified some specific aural problem and could pinpoint its source. That is, if it ain't broke . . . .

Nice score--Great Score! I wouldn't mess with revising or strengthening the baffle board. You've got a monster monitor there that will really put out the sound, made by people who knew what they were doing. Make 'em pretty, if you must, and hook 'em up.

Also, I've had no dealings with Westlake, but again, if it were I, since it's a small company that cares about its work, I'd contact Westlake and tell them what you've got there; tell them what you have in mind, and ask them if they have any advice or information about that specific speaker they could share with you. (But don't plague them with a lot of worry and elementary questions.)

Have fun!

David

Andyoz
12-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Dave,

I think the question the owner is asking is - if he's prepared to redo the front baffles, should he try to get the drivers closer as Westlake have actually done - these are clones.:)

cooky1257
12-21-2007, 09:50 AM
Dave,

I think the question the owner is asking is - if he's prepared to redo the front baffles, should he try to get the drivers closer as Westlake have actually done - these are clones.:)

Thanks Dave , Andy,
I 'have' to redo the baffles or they're out of the house :o:and so wondered as these aren't exact Westlake copies would they benefit from the closer arrangement of drivers as in the TM1 or TM3's or any other JBL 3 way that's used this combo of units.
Thanks
Frank

Mr. Widget
12-21-2007, 10:28 AM
I intend to replace and/or double up the front baffle with some nice grained 'finished' plywood and utility satin dark grey the rest.Sounds like a smart way to do a quick fix without too much effort. I am not sure what sort of thing is available in the UK, but here we have a limited selection of pre-finished sheets of plywood. I see no harm in sticking a sheet of 18mm stock over the existing baffle. For the woofers a simple rough cut followed by a flush trimming router should bang them out, for the 2405 you will need to make a larger hole in the original baffle so that the 2405 can be mounted directly to the new baffle. As for the 2397... that'll be a little tricky. Are you handy with a saber saw? I guess I'd build a jig and use a flush trim bit on a router for that as well, and then file the corners.



My main question is regarding the driver layout, in the TM1 and TM3 the UHF is much closer to the mid horn and this is an ideal opportunity to reposition things if it would be beneficial.I would stick with the layout that you already have. The 2405 has a wide dispersion and if it was any closer to the 2397 you would get more reflections from the high frequencies bouncing from the underside of the horn.



As a confirmed big Tannoy user since a lad I'm quite enjoying my move over to the dark side;-)So you have fired them up and are happy with the sound?



Widget

Andyoz
12-21-2007, 10:35 AM
The 2405 has a wide dispersion and if it was any closer to the 2397 you would get more reflections from the high frequencies bouncing from the underside of the horn.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I never understood that "compromise" with the original Westlake monitors?

p.s. may be worth dropping Richluvsound a line as he can get's all sorts of lovely pre-finished sheets - may also some hints regarding remounting the 2405 (he's a busy boy ATM though!).

John W
12-21-2007, 10:42 AM
What's showing in the picture between the 2397 and 2405?

Andyoz
12-21-2007, 11:04 AM
That was my first question...it's just Velcro :)

John W
12-21-2007, 11:21 AM
Oh well, it looked like another slot from here.

How hard would it be to pull the 2405 and plug the hole?
Since it looks like the 3105 crossover is right on the front, you could hook the tweeter externally and try moving it around a little and listen for changes.

cooky1257
12-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Cabs are all stripped down now so can't experiment.

Mr Widget;
Unfortunately I could only hook em up individually but I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with the sound, huge-bigger than my 215's and more dynamic-I'm preaching to the choir here I know:) but that 2397/2440 is the most un-hornlike horn I've ever come across, I particularly liked the bass units, the bottom end was tunefull, deep and articulate.
I put them on the end of some powerful MC2 amplification and I couldn't detect anything you could class as 'tired' about the sound, just effortless.
I've already bought and had cut some 18mm brazilian hardwood ply.
If I glue it over the existing baffle it'll bring it to 43mm thick, this will of course alter the port tuning so I've got to adjust for that.
What I don't see often here is the drivers rebated into the baffles, just clamped rear mounting seems the way to go.
Frank

Joe Alesi
12-21-2007, 05:19 PM
I've already bought and had cut some 18mm brazilian hardwood ply.
If I glue it over the existing baffle it'll bring it to 43mm thick, this will of course alter the port tuning so I've got to adjust for that.
What I don't see often here is the drivers rebated into the baffles, just clamped rear mounting seems the way to go.
Frank

Hello Cooky,

Congratulations on a great buy. As for redoing the front baffle, you could use veneer or very thin ply (2mm). Of course a thick front baffle is a good thing too, but you could always add bracing to the back of the front baffle via the 2 "manholes" and/or removable back . This would be a far easier quick fix to get them up and going and into the house.

cooky1257
12-21-2007, 05:22 PM
Ok thanks guys, so I'll keep the existing layout and post some picks when I'm done.
Frank
PS One day I plan to build some Westlake/2397 hybrid solid wood horns too.

Joe Alesi
12-21-2007, 05:32 PM
PS One day I plan to build some Westlake/2397 hybrid solid wood horns too.
Yes that is a definite agenda item here too.

richluvsound
12-23-2007, 05:00 PM
Another brit bites the saw dust :applaud: If you need a 5235 crossover PM me

Rich

Andyoz
12-23-2007, 05:10 PM
Rich,

Cooky's might be the only big UK based JBL monitors I get to listen to when you go to Germany - don't go. :p

richluvsound
12-23-2007, 05:23 PM
Andy,

Who else am I gonna get to help me design the new berlin studio ;)
besides, you can get a ticket for 40 quid:applaud:
I'm gonna push to build the next fabric in berlin. Did you hear he has got the dome ? God , I hope he dont use any more of that Martin-Tannoy crap. OPUS mate, buy Cornish

Rich

cooky1257
12-23-2007, 05:44 PM
Thanks Rich,
Actually I've a 5234 with 800hz cards that's also surplus to requirements.
On the subjevt of port tuning;
I've just done some calcs for the tuning of the TM1 and my own and am getting 46 hz which seems a bit high for a box this size when similar JBL models look to be tuned much lower(28-32hz). Any recommendations?
Cheers
Frank

Andyoz
12-23-2007, 06:16 PM
Cooky, if you talk nicely to Rich he may even let you visit him in Londinium for some words of wisdom.:)

If you're not already a JBL convert, he'll sort that out!

speakerdave
12-23-2007, 07:08 PM
Dave . . . . - these are clones.:)

Oh, yeah.

richluvsound
12-24-2007, 06:08 AM
Thanks Rich,
Actually I've a 5234 with 800hz cards that's also surplus to requirements.
On the subjevt of port tuning;
I've just done some calcs for the tuning of the TM1 and my own and am getting 46 hz which seems a bit high for a box this size when similar JBL models look to be tuned much lower(28-32hz). Any recommendations?
Cheers
Frank



Go low ;) remember when these were designed they couldnt record the LF we get on CD and DVD. Before you get the saw out , Get the gaussing checked on the 2231a's . I get mine done in Berlin, but there should be someone in the UK.

That is one hell of a deal BTW, Congrats :applaud:
our new cab is tuned to 20 hrtz .

Merry Xmas to you and yours ,

Rich

cooky1257
12-24-2007, 07:16 AM
Thanks Rich, I will go low.
I asked because I wanted to be sure that EBS tuning would still maintain 'that' JBL bass.
The previous owner informed me they were all checked out by JBL about 5 years ago as 'within spec' so i assume everything's tickedy boo-I may still give them a treat in the new year:)
All the best to you and yours,
Frank

cooky1257
02-08-2008, 01:01 PM
Hi All,
Just an update as to the progress(or not) with this little job.
First pic shows what I brought home(no wonder the missus wasn't too pleased;-).
After removing the front baffle and sanding, filling and making a new xover cut out, the next job was removing all the old damping-for health reasons if nothing else, some old studios were full of asbestos and wasn't sure what had settled into those fibres.
Next up was sanding and priming the 2397's(I masked off the foilcals)
The I sprayed them up in a nice satin black.
After reversing both baffles to present 'virgin ply for glueing I used the drivers to help clamp the old baffle onto the new.
Stay tuned for more pics...

rs237
02-08-2008, 01:20 PM
You are to be envied. The I would also like to buy if they had been in Germany.

regards
juergen

cooky1257
02-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Part deux.
After using the original box builders work as a template I learned a good lesson-don't.The baffles were sanded and varnished with clearcote satin.
Pic 1 Shows the horns mounted for the first time.His horn cutouts were on the p**s(crooked) so I had to compensate at the rear with frame sealant and extra bracing.
Pic 2 I sourced the 100mm dia ports from Germany and cut them to give a tuning @27 hz.The original boxes were tuned to 45 hz. I placed them similar to the current TM1's.
Pic3 shows the painted cabs with a trap door top to help 2440 installation/removal. I couldn't remove the rear panels and wanted a clean front so any future work goes on through the speaker cut outs and the trap door.:blink:
Pic4 This was a test assembly before the bass driver rebating.Afterwards the baffle was glued in place and all cab edges were radiused.
Just need to get them to the listening room to install the bass drivers and xovers.

cooky1257
02-08-2008, 01:37 PM
After opening up the xovers to mod them (to 3106's-ish)for a higher xover point on the 2405 I found only the coils to be waxed and the caps to look in good condition.Coils were swapped for air cored 0.3mh and the caps were straight swapped for some new Soniq's.
Finally we see the finished (well apart from the bottom panels but I have some plans there...) cabs with the 2231a's installed and clamped with M8 hex socket bolts all ready to shove my big Tannoy 215's aside.
T'wasn't to be though as one of the 2440's has proved to be blown so it's all stop for now while I source some replacement 2441 dias.
Future plans include some Charge coupled xover mods and eventual bass recone/recharges.....

Skywave-Rider
02-08-2008, 06:16 PM
Hi, they are looking sweet!
I really like the woodgrain/grey enamel combination.
How the heck will you mount these?
Will they live with those big Tannoys?
Let us know how they sound.
P.s.: What will happen with the bottoms?

cooky1257
02-08-2008, 11:25 PM
Hi,
The bases will eventually get some heavy 2"x2" c shape plinths that will lock into some heavy metal stands.
For now it'll be railway sleeper or RSJ skids for stands(oh how she's gonna love those:p).
The one that's fully working sound fab, effortless, dynamic and smooth with a great punchy articulate bass.
As for living with the Tannoys only one pair can realistically survive in my home-a question just of accommodation not quality-but we'll see:D
Frank

cooky1257
02-09-2008, 01:08 AM
I sooo glad I put that trapdoor in!
The damping material is longfibre wool and BAF -the stapled quilting just holds it loosely in place.
Theres a bit more tidying up to do finish wise but I can live with them as is.

Mr. Widget
02-09-2008, 08:00 AM
Nice.... I see you are another one of us who goes for the smaller more compact speakers. :D


Widget

cooky1257
02-09-2008, 08:16 AM
Nice.... I see you are another one of us who goes for the smaller more compact speakers. :D


Widget
:D Thanks Widget.
Well I'm of the philosophy "if you can't play a bass through them, then they can't do bass....."
When the music room looks this cluttered I explain it's because "she" wont let me move the cd's into another room:)
Frank

cooky1257
02-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Latest...
After 2 unsuccessful eBay auctions for lots of 8 dias and beaten by snipers by $10 twice;-(
My impatience got the better of me and rather than waiting for a 'steal' and not being entirely immune to the stares of the supreme one I've sourced some.
Have you seen the extortionate prices of replacement JBL dias in the UK/EU?!!!!! someone is seriously taking the p*** with those- at least twice the price of US sourced units-no wonder there's a thriving aftermarket.
Anyway I got a 25% discount off MRSP =$172 each from www.prosoundparts.com. so am eagerly awaiting delivery-'bout 2 weeks.
They seem like pleasant people to deal with, very helpful.
Stand by Rich.....

cooky1257
05-02-2008, 02:38 PM
Well after what seems like a lifetime I'm finally finished.
The final restore list runs to
2 x 2441 replacement MF diaphragms.
4 x 2335 bass recones
upgraded xover to 3106(caps n coils)
I eventually went tri-amped with the xover slopes;
LF. 2nd order Butterworth @900hz
MF 4th order LR @ 800hz/10.5khz
HF 4th order @ 10.5khz
The original set up had the bass roll off unfiltered with the MF coming in @ 800hz/18dB from a 5234.
Still at the tweaking stage regards driver alignment.
The image is huge, the dynamics are great fun, the stereo image isn't even close to my big Tannoys but the room isn't helping those 2397's and some treatment is urgently required. The bass units took a little while to settle down/run in before they started being as tunefull as the old 2231a's-they are different though to my ears, but again they could just be settling in and give these big monitors a wonderful clear and articulate bottom end.
They're more than some retro 'fun' speakers however, what they do they do mostly very very well indeed.
I will eventually build new highly finished cabs for all these fine drivers maybe slightly narrower but deeper to fit in my room.
I did take a photo record of all the cone /dias replacement procedures but will keep those to myself.
I've some stands next on my list too.
Was it worth it? Yes and I'm grateful to all those members who helped though it would be nice if some weren't so irritable:D-it puts you off asking sometimes.
Anyhow some pics;

Mr. Widget
05-02-2008, 05:40 PM
Congratulations looks good!

A while back I was using 2397s. They will never image like a point source design, but if you can control the early reflections it will help out the imaging greatly.

FWIW: I originally used the JBL 2441s with my 2397s... later I tried the TAD TD-4001s on them and I thought the improvement was worth the cost.


Widget

cooky1257
05-03-2008, 12:58 AM
Congratulations looks good!

A while back I was using 2397s. They will never image like a point source design, but if you can control the early reflections it will help out the imaging greatly.

FWIW: I originally used the JBL 2441s with my 2397s... later I tried the TAD TD-4001s on them and I thought the improvement was worth the cost.


Widget

Thanks Widget,
I had wondered 'where next?" and "what next?" driver wise.
The TADS will have to wait I'm afraid unless a real bargain came along.
I read a thread about some aftermarket Be dias but it seemed to go quiet on that front -maybe the very idea of cheap and Be can never come together.
Next step is to get the room/speakers measured for some final tweaking.
Cooky

Mr. Widget
05-03-2008, 09:44 AM
Thanks Widget,
I had wondered 'where next?" and "what next?" driver wise.
The TADS will have to wait I'm afraid unless a real bargain came along.I waited for years until I ran across a mint pair for $1100. It can happen.


Next step is to get the room/speakers measured for some final tweaking.
CookyI don't think the TAD improvement would be as great as room treatment... especially with those horns.


Widget

cooky1257
05-03-2008, 10:06 AM
I waited for years until I ran across a mint pair for $1100. It can happen.
I don't think the TAD improvement would be as great as room treatment... especially with those horns.


Widget

I'll keep the visa card dusted and ready;-)
I'll try some large cushion madness and more curtains combined with some extra toe in to begin with.
Anything to be gained by blocking off part of the horns?
Cooky

Mr. Widget
05-03-2008, 10:25 AM
Anything to be gained by blocking off part of the horns?I wouldn't.

In my room I had heavy velvet curtains. If the side walls were both covered, the image came into focus, with the curtains pulled back the image was gone and the sound source was extremely difficult to localize.

I also had the benefit of a large room. In a tight space, you may not be able to appreciate them at their best without drastic measures.


Widget

cooky1257
05-03-2008, 10:35 AM
I wouldn't.

In my room I had heavy velvet curtains. If the side walls were both covered, the image came into focus, with the curtains pulled back the image was gone and the sound source was extremely difficult to localize.

I also had the benefit of a large room. In a tight space, you may not be able to appreciate them at their best without drastic measures.


Widget

Ok. I'll see how it goes with curtains-thanks again.
Cooky1

StillUse4560s
05-08-2008, 06:02 PM
Cooky,

Nice work.

I'm building a '4397' of sorts. It's got some similarities to your project.

It is essentially the 4345 with the 2397 in it in lieu of the 2308? and the lens.

So, it's motivating to see the 2397 in your project as well.

So, congrats, hope you're enjoying results of your work.

Thanks for the photos,

Don't know if you saw the Smith Horn Thread that came back to life recently: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9148

Your project and the above thread were an enjoyable read.

Mike

cooky1257
05-08-2008, 11:42 PM
Cooky,

Nice work.

I'm building a '4397' of sorts. It's got some similarities to your project.

It is essentially the 4345 with the 2397 in it in lieu of the 2308? and the lens.

So, it's motivating to see the 2397 in your project as well.

So, congrats, hope you're enjoying results of your work.

Thanks for the photos,

Don't know if you saw the Smith Horn Thread that came back to life recently: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9148

Your project and the above thread were an enjoyable read.

Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the link -I did read that at the time.
I plan eventually to make some Westlake equivalent 2397's.
Good luck with your project.
Cooky

cooky1257
05-09-2008, 04:29 AM
A couple of things that intrigue me about the Westlake Smith horns are why do they have asymmetric top/bottom lip profiles and what is the purpose of the slight curvature to the top horn surface?
Does the asymmetry produce a tilted vertical dispersion patern?, does it have anything to do with counteracting any interference with the hf unit close by?-questions, questions and just an empty head to work with.

pentictonklaus
05-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Nice.... I see you are another one of us who goes for the smaller more compact speakers.

This is what I read from the music DVD : Mike Oldfield, Tubular Bells 2003.

" This recording can still not be played on old tin boxes
no matter what they are fitted with. If you are in possession
of such equipment hand it in to the nearest police station. "

I am glad to see one of the big speakers coming alive again. Right on.

Klaus