4 way system poll

[Joe Alesi]

Hello All,

I hope everyone is happy and well and ready for the Christmas Season:tree::cheers:

I would like to ask your opinions and ask you to vote your opinions in a JBL 4way horn system for home 2ch use. I am sure there are many options, but for me with available drivers (although I may still need one 2123), I have narrowed it down to 5.

I understand there may be some compromises with the 2245/2123 crossover point- please advise. I also have some 2309 horns only (no lenses) for any other crazy (or not) ideas.

[hjames]

Tell us more, Joe - I gather this Poll isn't about what we own or what we like, its what you ought to build with ... specific choice of drivers?

But - what about the 4333s? Lots of folks love them to death - seems like some folks like them better than the big 4-ways!
Very similar drivers but you need a pair of longhorns ...

I assume box building is not an issue ...


Hello All,

I hope everyone is happy and well and ready for the Christmas Season:tree::cheers:

I would like to ask your opinions and ask you to vote your opinions in a JBL 4way horn system for home 2ch use. I am sure there are many options, but for me with available drivers (although I may still need one 2123), I have narrowed it down to 5.

I understand there may be some compromises with the 2245/2123 crossover point- please advise. I also have some 2309 horns only (no lenses) for any other crazy (or not) ideas.

[Joe Alesi]

Tell us more, Joe - I gather this Poll isn't about what we own or what we like, its what you ought to build with ... specific choice of drivers?

But - what about the 4333s? Lots of folks love them to death - seems like some folks like them better than the big 4-ways!
Very similar drivers but you need a pair of longhorns ...

I assume box building is not an issue ...
Hello Heather,

Yes exactly- the poll is more about what I should do with what I have already got to build a big 4 way. Yes the 4333 would be a possibility for me- preferrably in a taller restyled cabinet, with modular construction for the inevitable changes.

For any other alternatives, I have:
2 x 2245
2 x 2240
2 x 2405
2 x 2404
4 x 2118
4 x LE5-2
4 x 2226
2 x 4560 bins
2 x 2440
2 x 2441
1 x 2123
1 x E110
2 x 2402
2 x 2470 converted to 2420?
2 x EV Theatre Horns HR9040 (large, 400/500Hz cut off)
2 x Martin Audio S115 Bass Bins:blink: Large Bass Bin 30ish/40 Hz Up

Can get:
2 x 2350
2 x 2397
2 x 5.5" Long x 6.5" Diam Tractrix/Spherical?? round horns for 2440/1

I was inspired to read Jack B's Oblate Spheriod threads and hence the interest in the short tractrix/spherical round horn for the 2440, but also love the look of the big 2350 (hopefully it is not too honky in sound character??).

Also I read many positive things about the Smith horn. Maybe I should ask one of our other Australian members for a listen (anyone out there?)

[Rolf]

I think this poll is of no value. You cant get votes from people who like other drivers more than the ones in the poll.

[Joe Alesi]

I think this poll is of no value. You cant get votes from people who like other drivers more than the ones in the poll.

Hello Rolf,

It's of value to me to ask people who may have experienced some of these which they would prefer, if they HAD to choose and also to stimulate discussion on all things JBL. So......... which option did you vote for? :)

Best
Joe

[macaroonie]

Do you not think the 2350 is a tad long throw in nature. I voted with the majority asuming you can get or make the serpentine lens. That is unless you live in the bush and distance is a plus. :D

[Joe Alesi]

Do you not think the 2350 is a tad long throw in nature. I voted with the majority asuming you can get or make the serpentine lens. That is unless you live in the bush and distance is a plus. :D

Hello Macaroonie,

No we dont live in the bush- the big smoke (No Kangaroos:D:D:D here). From memory the 2350 is nominally 90 H x 40 V. I suppose its radial design may make it more increasingly more directional at or around 8-10kHz and above, but i would have said that it would be reasonable for maybe not short (nearfiled), but certainly medium throw applications. In any event I would use a 2405 Slot Tweeter above it (140 x 45)

[allen mueller]

See if you can try those 2397's. I have a version of the smith horn more along the lines of the westlake style and love the sound. They sound great with all types of music.

Allen

[A9X]

Starting at the bottom;
1: I'd find another pair of 2245 and run them in a large sealed enclosure, push-push and use a Linkwitz tranform to get flat to 20-30Hz with a low Q. Big SS amp driving, preferably class D.
2: 2123 in a damped tube a la Drew Daniels; xover at 300Hz
3: 2440 on Bouska style flare
4: B&C DE10 or 18Sound 1020 on Bouska flare, 2-2k5 up.

All active, LR24 slopes, nothing class AB in the signal path.

Sorry, it's not quite what you asked, but if you're going to go to the effort, may as well do it the best possible, imnsho of course.

[Mr. Widget]

For any other alternatives, I have:
2 x 2245
2 x 2240
2 x 2405
2 x 2404
4 x 2118
4 x LE5-2
4 x 2226
2 x 4560 bins
2 x 2440
2 x 2441
1 x 2123
1 x E110
2 x 2402
2 x 2470 converted to 2420?
2 x EV Theatre Horns HR9040 (large, 400/500Hz cut off)
2 x Martin Audio S115 Bass Bins Large Bass Bin 30ish/40 Hz Up

Can get:
2 x 2350
2 x 2397
2 x 5.5" Long x 6.5" Diam Tractrix/Spherical?? round horns for 2440/1

I'd use the horns/drivers in red... get an additional 2123 and try both horns to see which you prefer.

The network and it's tuning will make or break the project.

Keep us posted.

Widget

[Joe Alesi]

See if you can try those 2397's. I have a version of the smith horn more along the lines of the westlake style and love the sound. They sound great with all types of music.

Allen

Thanks Allen,

Lucky man:bouncy:- I love the look of the big westlake horn. It seem I will have to try the 2397 (or Westlake by some miracle)- there are too many good recommendations to ignore. Do you cross them over at the traditional?? 800Hz?

[Joe Alesi]

Starting at the bottom;
1: I'd find another pair of 2245 and run them in a large sealed enclosure, push-push and use a Linkwitz tranform to get flat to 20-30Hz with a low Q. Big SS amp driving, preferably class D.
2: 2123 in a damped tube a la Drew Daniels; xover at 300Hz
3: 2440 on Bouska style flare
4: B&C DE10 or 18Sound 1020 on Bouska flare, 2-2k5 up.

All active, LR24 slopes, nothing class AB in the signal path.

Sorry, it's not quite what you asked, but if you're going to go to the effort, may as well do it the best possible, imnsho of course.

Thanks A9X,

How is life in Sydney? I used active eq (Linkwitz TF) on an old 2235 I used to have- It is defientlty the way to go. I will be using an active xover (probably DCX2496 or another analog 3way I have), so I can possibly play a few games with the response down low. I hear you on the suggestion of class AB- and certainly agree on the MID, HF and UHF. On the 2245 I am quite happy with big solid state AB.

It seems there is a push to the 2123 all around- now I need to find another newish one to match.

[Joe Alesi]

For any other alternatives, I have:
I'd use the horns/drivers in red... get an additional 2123 and try both horns to see which you prefer.

The network and it's tuning will make or break the project.

Keep us posted.

Widget

Thanks for your suggestions Mr Widget,

It seems there is a lot of love for the 2123:yes:, so that sounds like it might be a given and as you say try the horns for some flavour. All "easy" enough with an active xover.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Joe,

I like your idea of modular approach and with a digital active you can audition various combination and alternative network filters.

The 2226 with the smith horn/2440 crossing over at 800 hz then the slot at 8000 hz would be interesting, the 2226 horn loaded a would also be interesting and use the 2245 from either 75hz or 150 up. That arrangement is used in some clubs.

Alternatively try the above arrangment with the 2226 from 100-500 hz, 2118s running from 500hz - 1200hz, the 2440 with a salad bowl from 1200- 9000hz and the slot above 9000hz. If you want more refinement run the 2420 from 4000hz - 10,0000 in small smith horns and the 2240 from 1000- 4000hz much like the Westlakes. It more or less piston range system with die hard accuracy and even with dated components to would work well.

I realise this is a 6 way with the 2245 as a sub but I am looking at your available drivers. I think you have two choices. Of course you could use quite small class A amps on the horns.

Have you looked at Earl Geddes horns

You could also try the 2240's in sealed boxes like the old Clair Bros S4 cabinets which were a PA mans 4355 with twin 2240, 4 x E110, 2 x 2440, 2 x 2405 per box.

Just some ideas

Ian

[Allanvh5150]

Ah yes, thes S4. Now there is a cabinet!:applaud:

[A9X]

Thanks A9X,

How is life in Sydney?

It seems there is a push to the 2123 all around- now I need to find another newish one to match.It's been like Melbourne for the last few days up here. Blech.

The 2123's are very nice. I'll soon be using them in my WWMTMWW array as the M's.

Cheers

[pos]

I also have 2245 and 2123 and want to use them the same way as you plan to, but it seems difficult to get the 2123 go as low (needs eq), and also questionable to get the 2245 go as high (some say so).

I have no choice and have to go that way because I plan to use a PT wave guide that cannot go lower than 1.2khz, but if you use a westlake horn then you can cross it at 800hz. Maybe 300-800 is not the best range for the 2123: it is good up to 1.5khz and no so good down low. Maybe a 2206 in the 150-800 range, sealed, would be more appropriated?

Another option would be to use the 2226: you have 4 of them already, so you could try something like a 4435/everest II arrangement:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17681
two 2226 per side, each in 5 cu ft independant enclosurs tuned low (~26hz), one of them only used up to 100 or 150hz, the other one up to 800hz (but also doing the low together with the first one, to gain mutual coupling). Then you cross the second 2226 with the horn at 800hz...
You would have something like a DIY everest II, and you can still use the 2245's as sub if you are not happy with the low end in your room

so I would vote for: 2226/2226/2441 on 2397/2405

[Joe Alesi]

Hi Joe,

Just some ideas

Ian

Some...........:D:D:D. My head is spinnning. 6 way...Hmmm? I could buy another DCX2496 and strap them together for a 6way xover.

On the suggestion of the Earl Geddes horns- Yes the idea is very appealing, particularly because I can get a small round very well constructed 1/2" thick fibregalss tractrix/spherical Horn to try almost 4 free. 6.5" Diam. 5.5" Long. I Suppose that would give me an idea of how the approach could sound, with as you suggest probably a something like 1.2k crossover.

Thanks for the input.

[Joe Alesi]

so I would vote for: 2226/2226/2441 on 2397/2405

Hello Pos,

I am very Pos on that idea....It makes me think M9500 / K2 style cabinet- a thing of true beauty. Too many wonderful ideas....Thanks

[Joe Alesi]

It's been like Melbourne for the last few days up here. Blech.

The 2123's are very nice. I'll soon be using them in my WWMTMWW array as the M's.

Cheers
Hello A9X,

Did you find them easy to get in Australia- or was it an overseas purchase? I was lucky to find one you could say brand new from CC light and Sound in Melbourne.

[pos]

It makes me think M9500 / K2 style cabinet- a thing of true beauty.It is important to keep the two 2226 close together to gain mutual coupling in the bass. You cannot do a MTM if only one of the two woofers crosses to the horn anyway.
In fact with a 4435-style arrangement you have one woofer that handle the 20hz-100hz range and the other the 20hz-800hz range. So only one woofer crosses to the horn but you have two woofers in the 20-100 range, and if they are close enough (less than 1/4 or the 100hz wave length) you get +6db in that range.
that is the reason for the banana curve you obtain with a sinlge 2226 tuned that low: it becomes flat when the two woofers act together

[John W]

Great thread Joe.

Apart from the drivers, do you have any other thoughts on the sort of design you are looking for? You’ve mentioned “modular” and something taller and restyled from the typical big monitor.

Working with the drivers you have on hand, I’d like to see a combination Augspurger / Westlake design. The 4-2226 drivers in a folded in alignment like this thread,

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12506

with the 2397 or Westlake horns instead, and the 2405s in the “nose” position.

Sort of like this: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=154483&postcount=9 but with an angled baffle.

The 2245s in separate boxes.

[Don Mascali]

I would personally recommend the 2245/2226 low end combo. There is a visceral impact when played hard that the 2245/2123 will not match.

I use 2242 and 2-2226 per side myself and they are nice...
any of the upper options seem fine to me.

Good listening with whatever you decide!

[SMKSoundPro]

Hi Joe,

You could also try the 2240's in sealed boxes like the old Clair Bros S4 cabinets which were a PA mans 4355 with twin 2240, 4 x E110, 2 x 2440, 2 x 2405 per box.

Just some ideas

Ian

There are 32 Clair bros S4 cab hanging in our Sullivan Arena here in Anchorage. Bought used in 1984 from some Billy Joel tour that left the rig in Seattle.
I have serviced it many times. Original power was phase(flame) linear amps. Yam pm 3000 board with f1030 xovers.

You're right!

A ton of great parts there!!!!

Scotty.

ps. time to start building the 2397 type "smith" horns!

[Joe Alesi]

Great thread Joe.

Apart from the drivers, do you have any other thoughts on the sort of design you are looking for? You’ve mentioned “modular” and something taller and restyled from the typical big monitor.

Working with the drivers you have on hand, I’d like to see a combination Augspurger / Westlake design. The 4-2226 drivers in a folded in alignment like this thread,

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12506

with the 2397 or Westlake horns instead, and the 2405s in the “nose” position.

Sort of like this: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=154483&postcount=9 but with an angled baffle.

The 2245s in separate boxes.

Hello John,

I'm glad people are enjoying the thread and it is always good to chew the design fat. As for the modular concept- I love simple industrial minimalist design. I would like to try to build a series of stacked (seperated) cubes each holding individual drivers and possibly held together by some sort of steel exoskeleton (especially if going MTM style). EDIT: Not quite as cold and austere as the Goldmund style design, see pics, but along these lines- BUT BIG.



The Augspurger design looks incredible (although I prefer a tall design)...oh thats a M9500 / K2 style:D. Another mega favourite. The Westlake horn is do-able DIY wise, but even though I have a good DIY history (Dad was a cabinet maker- son using chisel at 6 y.o.:blah:), the Augspurger fat lipped design introduces a lot more complexity (and the need for custom equipt), a huge lathe or many hours with the plane and belt sander:D.

I really like the punch of the 2226 (although I haven't auditioned the 2123) I would agree with Don M :yes: :wave:that the punch from the 2226 (esp in the 4560) is incredible especially on drums. WOW.

PS: I think I'm addicted to smilies.

[Joe Alesi]

....Scotty.

ps. time to start building the 2397 type "smith" horns!

Hello Scotty,

Thanks for the input- Yes the 2397 seems to be on most people's lips:D.

Sounds like I need to do it. Out of curiousity, has anyone crossed them lower than the traditional (I think) 800 Hz? Perhaps using a larger size unit.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Joe,

There are some good ideas in Drew's Clue's in the Library.

If you plan to use it indoors it will be important to work out your minimum workable listening distance.

As a rule the 4 ways need a mimum of 3 metres to integrate properly and time displacement with deep horns will be an issue if you intent to have good depth and a smooth vertical power response. Otherwise it will be nothing more than a nice sounding PA.

Ian

(Melb)

[A9X]

Hello A9X,

Did you find them easy to get in Australia- or was it an overseas purchase? I was lucky to find one you could say brand new from CC light and Sound in Melbourne.They were a dog to find. I lucked onto one pair from another 'phile in Melb, and the other pair are in transit from the US. All are NOS/NIB.
Still looking for a single 2220H and have been for over a year.

[johnaec]

I really like the punch of the 2226 (although I haven't auditioned the 2123) I would agree with Don M :yes: :wave:that the punch from the 2226 (esp in the 4560) is incredible especially on drums. WOW.It sounds like the ideal combination might be the 12" 2206H, (basically a smaller version of the 2226H). 4" voice coil for control, and right in between the 2226 and 2123 in size...

John

[Mr. Widget]

Sounds like I need to do it. Out of curiousity, has anyone crossed them lower than the traditional (I think) 800 Hz? Perhaps using a larger size unit.Yes, and it sounds even better crossed over at 1200Hz... hence the 2123... if slam is paramount and 2226s are your thing, look for a much, much bigger horn. Using the 2226s is a pretty big compromise if crossed above 500Hz.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

It sounds like the ideal combination might be the 12" 2206H, (basically a smaller version of the 2226H). 4" voice coil for control, and right in between the 2226 and 2123 in size...I've never heard them, but it does make sense. I will say that the 2202 of the 4350/55 has much more slam than the 2122 of the 4345, however the 2122's added detail and ability to showcase subtle tonal nuance more than makeup for this loss to my ears.


It is all compromises. Decide what is most important to you and follow that path.


Widget

[Robh3606]

You are basically doing a version of Drew Daniels system. That was my original inspiration. I ended up with a 4 way active set-up using smaller subs. I simply didn't have the room for the boxes required.

I would use the 18's as true subs and use a 15 tuned up high and tight for max transient response and low group delay. The 2123 is a great driver from 300 to 1.5K and then the horn and compression driver of your choice. If you can match the directivity of the horn and 10" at the crossover point. Also try to use a horn that has at least an octave lower cut-off than your crossover point. You want good loading and a good DI match through the crossover point. Get the 10" mid and horn as close as possible.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html

Rob:)

[Joe Alesi]

They were a dog to find. I lucked onto one pair from another 'phile in Melb, and the other pair are in transit from the US. All are NOS/NIB.
Still looking for a single 2220H and have been for over a year.

Hello A9X,

There was (as I recall) a 2220H or 2220 pair on eBay Australia- I didn't follow it though. I may have another contact for you- BS Sound in Victoria, but i can't recall if he had a 2220 reconed to 2225 or straight 2220. I will ask.

EDIT:
I checked with him- Sorry it is a 2220 fitted with a 2225 cone. PM sent.

[Joe Alesi]

Joe,

There are some good ideas in Drew's Clue's in the Library.

If you plan to use it indoors it will be important to work out your minimum workable listening distance.

As a rule the 4 ways need a mimum of 3 metres to integrate properly and time displacement with deep horns will be an issue if you intent to have good depth and a smooth vertical power response. Otherwise it will be nothing more than a nice sounding PA.

Ian

(Melb)
Hello Ian,

Yes I take your point about driver integration. I would try to maintain minimum vertical spacings. But my listening room to be (still building) is largish: approx 9.5m x 6.5m, with an added smaller area to one side- so I should be able to get a typical 4-5m + listening distance.

Ian I see "Melb" there- Melbourne??. It would be good to get togther for a coffee to chew the audio fat - I am in the SE suburbs.

[Joe Alesi]

You are basically doing a version of Drew Daniels system. That was my original inspiration. I ended up with a 4 way active set-up using smaller subs. I simply didn't have the room for the boxes required.

I would use the 18's as true subs and use a 15 tuned up high and tight for max transient response and low group delay. The 2123 is a great driver from 300 to 1.5K and then the horn and compression driver of your choice. If you can match the directivity of the horn and 10" at the crossover point. Also try to use a horn that has at least an octave lower cut-off than your crossover point. You want good loading and a good DI match through the crossover point. Get the 10" mid and horn as close as possible.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html

Rob:)
Thanks for the input Rob.

Even though I haven't tried it yet, I really would want to take maximum advantage of the 2440 down to 800-1K for that wonderful horn bite??, but perhaps the 2123 is better in that area- not sure if it is black and white or matter of taste issue. I suppose an easy:applaud: enough test with an electronic crossover.

Thinking out aloud- I wonder how well the 2123 goes if we push it lower to around 200Hz- again trial/error.

Thanks for reminding me on the Drew Daniels system- I had read it in part some time ago, but now will have to read it through in detail.

[Joe Alesi]

It sounds like the ideal combination might be the 12" 2206H, (basically a smaller version of the 2226H). 4" voice coil for control, and right in between the 2226 and 2123 in size...

John
Hello John,

Yes the 12" could be a beautiful thing, but they are very hard to find 2nd Hand in Australia (except for the odd E120- recone or redustcap perhaps???) There seem to be lots of 15" and some 10", but you rarely see 12". Just out of curiousity I will check their new price.

[Joe Alesi]

Yes, and it sounds even better crossed over at 1200Hz... hence the 2123... if slam is paramount and 2226s are your thing, look for a much, much bigger horn. Using the 2226s is a pretty big compromise if crossed above 500Hz.


Widget
Hello Widget,

Thanks for the input- sounds like the 2123/2397 combo is the way to go for reasonable size (WAFish) result. Re the 2226 - yes I have heard them higher up and tend to agree. I could always use some EV 90x40 theatre horns I have- 2360 sort of size and cross down low....a bit on the crazy side size wise. Are we allowed to say Electrovoice :Dhere?

http://www.electrovoice.com/products/294.html

It will all be a great experiment, when I get all the gear arranged/time.

[Rolf]

Hello Rolf,

It's of value to me to ask people who may have experienced some of these which they would prefer, if they HAD to choose and also to stimulate discussion on all things JBL. So......... which option did you vote for? :)

Best
Joe

"None of the above."

[Chas]

I went with the majority, it could be a fine system...although based on my own experience, I would upgrade the 2440's to 2441's. Makes a big difference.:)

[Joe Alesi]

I went with the majority, it could be a fine system...although based on my own experience, I would upgrade the 2440's to 2441's. Makes a big difference.:)
Hello Chas,

I have some 2441 drivers (not in my list- one has a non genuine JBL diaphragm -I Think and the other has none.)

I hear that the 2440/Aluminum is preferred in its operating band compared with the 2441/titanium (at least from some of my Australian connections) compared with the 2441 operating in the same band (say up to say 8-10kHz), but then there is no substitute for trial. I will try them (or atleast one of them:D). Of course the 2441 opens the oppourtunity for it to run right up to 16k (with eq etc), but I really want to use the 2405 (since I was little and saw my first JBL- which was a large 3 or 4 way monitor- I will have to search the forum pics to be sure which one)

[boputnam]

...I'd use the horns/drivers in red... get an additional 2123 and try both horns to see which you prefer....Widget pinged the ones I was eye'ing. :yes:

Get 'er done...!!

[Chas]

Hello Chas,

I have some 2441 drivers (not in my list- one has a non genuine JBL diaphragm -I Think and the other has none.)

I hear that the 2440/Aluminum is preferred in its operating band compared with the 2441/titanium (at least from some of my Australian connections) compared with the 2441 operating in the same band (say up to say 8-10kHz), but then there is no substitute for trial. I will try them (or atleast one of them:D). Of course the 2441 opens the oppourtunity for it to run right up to 16k (with eq etc), but I really want to use the 2405 (since I was little and saw my first JBL- which was a large 3 or 4 way monitor- I will have to search the forum pics to be sure which one)

Please don't misunderstand me, I actually was responding within the context of your parameters. I.E. with a 2405, I WOULD use a 2441 (with an aluminum, diamond surround diaphragm) over a 2440 in conjunction with a 2405. It just works better.:) I don't know where a titanium diaphragm material comes into play here....

Even at my advanced age and hearing, I most certainly wouldn't run a system like this without a 2405!

[Joe Alesi]

Widget pinged the ones I was eye'ing. :yes:

Get 'er done...!!
Thanks Boputnam,

Following the discussions in this thread I have now searched far and wide and have some 2123 drivers in my crosshairs at the moment, unfortunately with slightly aged/faded cones compared with my other (virtually new) grey cone, but I should go for it so I can ...... Get 'er done...!!

[Joe Alesi]

Please don't misunderstand me, I actually was responding within the context of your parameters. I.E. with a 2405, I WOULD use a 2441 (with an aluminum, diamond surround diaphragm) over a 2440 in conjunction with a 2405. It just works better.:) I don't know where a titanium diaphragm material comes into play here....

Even at my advanced age and hearing, I most certainly wouldn't run a system like this without a 2405!

Hello Chas,

Sorry about my misunderstanding. I immediately thought the inclusion of the 2441 (over the 2440) implied the exclusion of the 2405- my mistake.

Now I am curious and will have to carefully check my 2441 to see what it really has inside- Maybe I will get lucky with an Aluminium Diamond Pattern? I recall it being a diamond pattern, what type or whether it is genuine I am not sure.