Adding 077s and 3105s to Valencias

[diamondsouled]

Just picked up a pair of 077s and 3105s to add onto my Valencias.

I'm wondering if I will need to mod the 3105s at all. If I remember right they are 8 Ohms on the UHF and 16 Ohms on the HF correct?

I used them before years ago ( 3105s on a Valenica ) without changing anything and they sounded good to me but I would like to do it correctly this time lol.

I unhooked the cheeks today and hooked up the 077s and they do sound sweet. Not a whole lot of difference but oddly I thought I could hear a bit better stereo imaging with the 077s over the 2404s, could be my imagination though.

Lar

[diamondsouled]

Just realized I may have to go with N7000 crossovers because of the impedance. How hard would it be to convert the 3105s to 8 Ohms?

Thanks

Larry

[diamondsouled]

Now I'm just confused. The N7000 is identical to the 3105 yet the 077 is rated at 8 Ohms and the 2405 at 16 Ohms.

What's with this?

Lar

[Robh3606]

They are both about 8-10 Ohms and there really is no difference. Don't worry about the 8 vs 16 with those drivers.

Rob:)

Here's an 077 with an original blue diaphram assembly on the WT2

[diamondsouled]

Thanks Rob!

Should the Altec Valencia's 8 Ohm 806 driver be compatible with the 3105 as well?

I did have a similar set up before and it sounded fine to me. I'm pretty sure they were N7000 crossovers though.

Lar

[Robh3606]

You are going to have to do a little homework on this one. You should hit the JBL Pro Site and compare the N7000 and 3105 and then hit the catalogs on the site.

If I remember right the crossovers are the same. One used a 2440 and the other a 375 on the low end. Now this is where things get a little clouded. Today an 8 ohm vs a 16 ohm compression drivers diaphram is indeed that. There is a real difference.

Back then the 2440 was 16 and a 375 was an 8 ohm driver. Looking at the "Goes into List" with the 375 it looks like it's a 16ohm driver. So we have have the same situation with the 375 vs 2440 as the 077 vs 2405.

"Goes into list" to see what went into a 375 look for the 2440 diaphram
D16R2440

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Goes%20Into%20List/Goes%20Into%20List.pdf

Here is the link for the crossover schematics.

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Network%20Schematics.html

and the Library

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/catalogs/jbl-catl.htm


So the bottom line is I don't know how well it will work with your Altec compression driver but it won't hurt to try. You have already done it right??

Rob:)

[toddalin]

I'm sure that I'll get lamb-basted for posting this but, if your happy with your existing highs but want "a little more on the top.," why not just make it cheap and easy? Use the tweeter portion of the N7000-N8000 crossover to add the tweeter. See the schematic, which is pretty much the L200 crossover with the N7000/8000 added.

The N7000 actually uses a 0.6 mH choke whereas the N8000 uses a 0.3 mH choke on the tweeter and horn circuits. I used the 0.5 mH choke because I used an 075 and an LE175/HL-91, but I wanted it a little higher than an N7000. I would have used the 0.4 mH choke, but it was unavailable at the time. The capacitor is the same in both. For what it's worth, when I built these I added Theta AuraCap 0.01 mfd by-pass capacitors all around for a little more... crispness.

You could just take the tweeter portion of the provided schmatic.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Crossover.jpg

[Robh3606]

I'm sure that I'll get lamb-basted for posting this

Your in real trouble now. The nerve!!

I am moving it to DIY so we can all suggest what we have tried.

What you are suggesting may actually work better depending on the roll off of his horn and driver combo.

Rob:)

[diamondsouled]

Thank's all,

I tracked down the thread on impedance matching as well as the other threads to do with all the N7000-3105 077-2405 impedance and crossover fun.

I have some Ruskie mil spec caps I plan on using. Some rather huge 1.5uF 500V K75-10s bypassed with .033 uF 1000V K40Ys.

I suppose I should at least bypass* the hipass in the Altec crossover while I'm at it.

I'll see what it ends up sounding like. Might end up putting a new 3 way crossover together from scratch. I also have a nice ARC EC-4 3 way active tube crossover I might give a try.

Lar

* Go around lol.

[Zilch]

Depends on what 806 you have, 8 or 16 Ohms.

The real problem adding a tweeter to Valencia is combing if it's located anywhere other than within the bell.

Even then, you get combing off-axis.

The whole deal is much simplified by keeping it two-way and using a driver suited to the task, i.e., one with HF extension....

[diamondsouled]

Hi Ziltch,

I have my 077s set up on top of the cabinet towards the back and centered.

The sound is quite good.

If a person were to pick up or make some nice cabinets such as these teak ones it doesn't look all that bad. Sounds good to my ears.

Lar

[Zilch]

I have my 077s set up on top of the cabinet towards the back and centered.

The sound is quite good.No problem. JBL does that all the time.

No, WAIT! It was Fostex or somebody, now that I think about it.

Or somebody's friend with a Fostex tweeter, maybe. :dont-know

[Never mind.... :p ]

[89-300ce]

Lar,

How high is the centre of the horn from the floor? Are these based on an exisiting cabinet?

Jorg

[diamondsouled]

Lar,

How high is the centre of the horn from the floor? Are these based on an exisiting cabinet?

Jorg

Hi Jorg,

32". I suspect that 32" is close to the distance from the floor for the 077s on the L300s as well.

Lar

[SMKSoundPro]

Dear Mr. Zilch,

Deja Vu?

Scott.

[Zilch]

I suppose I should at least bypass* the hipass in the Altec crossover while I'm at it.There's some compensation (not enough, tho,) for 806's excess midrange output in the stock Altec filter. That's why the cap values are not the same LF and HF, i.e., not "textbook."


Should the Altec Valencia's 8 Ohm 806 driver be compatible with the 3105 as well?Unlikely. Find the impedance at the frequency of interest, do the calcs, and measure the actual acoustic response.

OR, just slap it together and pretend it sounds good.... :thmbsup:

[diamondsouled]

There's some compensation (not enough, tho,) for 806's excess midrange output in the stock Altec filter. That's why the cap values are not the same LF and HF, i.e., not "textbook."

Unlikely. Find the impedance at the frequency of interest, do the calcs, and measure the actual acoustic response.

OR, just slap it together and pretend it sounds good.... :thmbsup:

Mmmmmm. After playing in a rock band for several years back in the late sixties early seventies, lots of loud concerts as well like The Who in Montreal's Forum, innumerable jams sessions, the ol' hearing apparatus ain't what it used to be. I can hear crickets out of my left ear but not out of the right ear. Suppose it's time I bought an RTA. Is True Audio's RTA an OK program?

I do have a feeling though that when you limit the frequency going through the 806-811B to 800Hz to 7000 Hz that it's midrange excess becomes more manageable. At least that is what my ol' ears tell me, imperfect as they are.

Lar

[Robh3606]

OR, just slap it together and pretend it sounds good.... :thmbsup:

What's to pretend? It either sounds good or it doesn't

Rob:)

[4313B]

What's to pretend? It either sounds good or it doesn't

Rob:)Old school and irrelevant. It either measures good or it doesn't.

[diamondsouled]

Hi Rob,

You're right there. It either sounds good or it doesn't.

As a musician it has always been the music that I was primarily listening to and not the system. I have heard great sounding music come out of small full range Sony speakers in a plastic case. I have a Uher Royal Deluxe R2R with a built in SS amp and two 2-1/2 " x 5" oval speakers; again I've heard great sounding music come out of it as well. I used to like fooling my buddies with my minute David Visonik speakers. I placed them in my empty ESS cabinets and when people would inevitably comment on how great they sounded I would pull off the ESS grills and watch their jaws drop when they saw those tiny little Davids in there, lol.

http://old.visonik.de/en/historie.php

We're not listening to pink noise but to Pink Floyd.

Lar

[diamondsouled]

Guess I should qualify that so I don't get hung from the yardarm.

I'm glad that there are folks who are really into the science of sound. Guys like Linkweitz, James B., Oskar Heil, Peter Walker, etc. etc.; guys who really get into the math and formula aspect of speaker and network design.

At the end of the day though yas gotz to sitz down and take a long listen to the music.

Lar

[Zilch]

Thanks to the Internet, I'm discovering that alot of people really like that [awful] sound. :rotfl:

Out of context, admittedly, but if the bottom line is whatever sounds good to anybody, and everybody hears differently, and everybody's taste is different, then there's nothing to discuss.

It's subjectivist pap, is what. There ARE absolutes in this, and I can't believe what some folks consider as comprising audio nirvana.

What *I* am discovering thanks to the Internet is that it'd be good if people listened with their ears rather than their gonads.... :banghead:

[diamondsouled]

Out of context, admittedly, but if the bottom line is whatever sounds good to anybody, and everybody hears differently, and everybody's taste is different, then there's nothing to discuss.

It's subjectivist pap, is what. There ARE absolutes in this, and I can't believe what some folks consider as comprising audio nirvana....

That's why I put the qualifier in.

I do appreciate the science of sound; but in the end, for myself anyway, it is primarily about music appreciation.

A parallel would be the investigation of Da Vinci's last supper with x-rays. Although what you find out about the creation of the work is very interesting as well as useful when restoring the work, it is the work itself as a whole which is of primary importance.

Analysis is an art in itself though technique can never replace creativity. Without creativity technique is purely mechanical.

Lar

[Zilch]

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

[diamondsouled]

Thanks for the link Ziltch.

Im only being a contrarian because because Im a bit of a tease.

Actually trig, algebra, calculus, are my favorite subjects. Subjects I always aced with little or no effort.

The Valencia thread about Storms speakers was like a great book. I had a hard time putting it down.

Like I said I would like to do this addition right. As to my motives, well its a challenge to myself to see if there will be much of an audible improvement and perhaps learn a bit more about the science of sound in the bargain.

Lar

[Robh3606]

Out of context, admittedly, but if the bottom line is whatever sounds good to anybody, and everybody hears differently, and everybody's taste is different, then there's nothing to discuss.


Actually quite a bit. You don't have to agree to have a discussion just an open mind. That's one thing thats really great about the hobby, there are so many roads to go down if you choose to do so. It obvious that there are many camps filled with like minded people. We are all JBL nuts??



It's subjectivist pap, is what. There ARE absolutes in this, and I can't believe what some folks consider as comprising audio nirvana.


Ok so your in Tooles camp and armed with a CLIO rig you think that if it measures much from flat response it's no good or compromised. Well guess what I tend to agree however when all is said and done and all the measurements are in what happens next??

They, JBL or whoever, get the best group of ears and fine tune using "their" subjective opinions. There is simply no way to get around the fact that a speaker comes to market because it sounds good to someone. That person or group calls the shots.

Now does my opinion have as much weight as this group, do I have the experience to voice these systems for the market? Hell no. I know what I like. I agree in principle to these designs and try to DIY along the same lines but I don't have 30 years doing this. None of us do.

I built clones to have a baseline to compare too. Without that baseline and even armed with the CLIO rig I would be very much in the dark on how these systems actually sound without actually hearing them in my room.

My brother in-law swears by his Bose System. He's not wrong for him. Would be for me. You can't change a persons likes or dislikes with a graph. You may not be able to change them at all. I know he loves my systems but there too big and it's more important that they fit into his room the way they do. Is he wrong?? I would say different priorities.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

Well guess what I tend to agree however when all is said and done and all the measurements are in what happens next??Build 'em, listen, enjoy, in the meantme going on to the next project and learning more, of course. Sometimes its back to earlier ones and refining them with new knowledge. :yes:

[Zilch]

{snip}To the best of my recollection, I posted about but one project this year.

The thread was closed and a new one opened by an administrator, but the member formerly known as Giskard raised a stink about that, even, thus terminating the effort.

If you consider actually acquiring a pair each of 2452H and 2452H-SL and documenting what they are and how they differ (including performance measurements) a "project," then I guess the number is ONE for 2007, and you should be quite pleased in my view.... ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Can't we all just agree that I am right and the whole lot of you are wrong? :D


Widget

[diamondsouled]

Hi Ziltchmister,

I have to admit enjoying seeing that I've got all my ducts in a row. I even remember tuning the ports on my home made Valencias back in 1974. With the 418Bs in there I didn't even need the ducts. Speaking of which, I heard from other Valencia owners that they had taken the ducts out as well even with the stock 416-Bs. Anyone else hear this?

Lar

[hjames]

Dang G - or 43 or whatever ... you are on a roll, eh?

Certainly there are other threads here that more worthy of calling down - a certain endless thread about little JBL boxes stuck all over the walls and ceiling with multiple EQs and a big ass sub come to mind.

Regardless - Zilch (and Tom L and a few others) encouraged me to dabble with the 4320s I got nearly 2 years ago now - and now they are very fine speakers I have playing most of the time. Once I got them to a certain point I found your crossover schemo and built that for the drivers. Is it perfect? No - but i got a better sense of parts I could swap in and out of them and even swapped them up into the bastardized "L200s" they are now. I'm sure it could be better, but its quite pleasant and we enjoy listening to the JBLs. And people i know now know that I appreciate JBLs and so THEY are aware of the brand as well.

As long as we are talking about this brand and have excitement about it, its still a good thing. Beats the hell out of the majority of JBL advertising I have seen anywhere else lately.

Zilch is certainly a hell of a lot more pleasant than some of the now banned members that used to welcome everyone to the site and knew very little. You don't like it, just call him the monster garage and let it go - or ban him - but this endless cracking on the guy is just crass and rude.

I'm off to bed - this mean spirited crapfest just turns my stomach.

[SEAWOLF97]

Zilch is certainly a hell of a lot more pleasant than some of the now banned members that used to welcome everyone to the site and knew very little. You don't like it, just call him the monster garage and let it go - or ban him - but this endless cracking on the guy is just crass and rude.

I'm off to bed - this mean spirited crapfest just turns my stomach.

I second HJ's sentiment ...Z may be a serial blogger, but its in the right vein. And he helped me out when I was just a FNG, asking nothing in return. I will never be up to the levels of you 2 guys, but I've been around long enough to see that the sniping isn't doing anyone any good.

[4313B]

I've been around long enough to see that the sniping isn't doing anyone any good.Agreed. Zilch and I have had a conversation and I think that I owe Zilch an apology for my reactions based on my misperceptions. I've expressed my perceptions and concerns, he has responded and I believe we have come to an amicable conclusion.