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View Full Version : GOD , i`m so excited.



sahinderya
10-23-2007, 05:44 AM
Please tell me about the current situation of project may, friends.
I couldnt able to find any info about participants work or any design work around the site?
I got some serious contribution to make to serious people on this.

Thank you
Sahin

info@handmadehifi.com

hjames
10-23-2007, 05:56 AM
Que?
http://handmadehifi.com/

richluvsound
10-23-2007, 06:32 AM
Great , my speakers match the carpet and the drapes. Nope, for me new K2......Maybe for my Hendrix only speakers though !

brutal
10-23-2007, 09:36 PM
Great , my speakers match the carpet and the drapes. Nope, for me new K2......Maybe for my Hendrix only speakers though !

Carpet? More like Turkish rug match. :rotfl:

sahinderya
10-25-2007, 03:50 AM
i`ve sent some ideas here and there,
and as I can see there not much I can do but I`ll still have some modifications to offer anyway.

-as I can see there is no wish to use HDF instead of MDF , which hdf is far more superior to it. Especially on the front baffle more than 1 inch would be best. A the bottom picture you can see my idea coming out of M-1 Abrams` chobham ceramic armour. Which is developed for projectiles, putting ceramic tiles on the inner surface makes the cabinet extremely rigid, and very cheap. On top of these I put some oak or pine pyramids glued. This gives them a very unstable acoustical image and breaks up the inner reflections very highly , another cheap thing but time consuming thing for me. If these pyramid can be made out of single odd shaped tile of wood, they can be glued right on the ceramics. This procedure even reduces the needed inner bracing (which is air flow preventing a bit).

-Please go for sealed or at least supply some plug for the woofers. These are marvelous and venting must be killing their characteristics.

-The woofer should be placed or should I say pushed from behind through their bottoms forwards with some mdf or hdf parts, this connection with the cabinet makes woofer far more harder to excite on the deep notes and makes the basket very rigid. The contact point must be hard and glued something like epoxy or similar strong vibration proof chemical.

-Inner cabling is as I perform can be go through elastic aluminum woven water pipes , these little things can be attached to one another for longer lengths.
You can see them in use at upper picture , coming out of crossover boxes, I put some glue in them to stay in shape forever after drying. Thus wire is bone hard always in cabinet.

-I dont understand why the back wall is still exactly parallel with the front baffle? It can stay like that but can we put some diffraction creating 2 long bars of wood in shape of a tent (I couldnt tell this otherwise). This will break the inner side in two for a very good reason.

-I put another picture for burying the crossover in simple tar (its heat can destroy everything) , as an alternative I use some mixed heavy epoxy, but the tar is always the best.I saw this is done in some very old tubed radios.

I dont know, lets talk anyways.
Thank you
Sahin

Mr. Widget
10-26-2007, 01:59 AM
Here are comments on a couple of your suggestions. Rather than focusing on Project May I think we should consider them in regards to any speaker design.


-as I can see there is no wish to use HDF instead of MDF , which hdf is far more superior to it....
I wouldn't agree that high density fiber board is inherently superior... it certainly can be in certain applications with the correct damping material added, but realize as a panel's mass increases if all other properties remain the same the amount of damping material that will be required to control resonances will also increase.

My preferred method of construction is to line the box with MDF as it is inherently self damping and brace it and encapsulate it in a very rigid frame of birch plywood. See this thread: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9812



-Please go for sealed or at least supply some plug for the woofers. These are marvelous and venting must be killing their characteristics.
Most JBL woofers sound better and behave better in vented alignments. In the case of the 1500AL we did test them and listen to them in both sealed and vented configurations... they were definitely better in a vented alignment. It is a common "audiophile" notion that sealed woofers and first order crossovers are always superior solutions... sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.



-The woofer should be placed or should I say pushed from behind through their bottoms forwards with some mdf or hdf parts, this connection with the cabinet makes woofer far more harder to excite on the deep notes and makes the basket very rigid. The contact point must be hard and glued something like epoxy or similar strong vibration proof chemical.
This idea may make sense for a lightweight stamped frame woofer, but for a massive and extremely rigid woofer like the 1500AL and most other JBL woofers, I think the preferred arrangement would be an attempt to isolate the woofer from the cabinet not couple it... the cabinet will always resonate... coupling the woofer as described will likely add even more coloration... It would be interesting to take this concept further than simple speculation though, as it should be easy to test by making an impedance measurement comparing the two approaches.


Widget

sahinderya
10-26-2007, 04:29 AM
that is sooo negative ,
i can understand that you dont want me to mess with a 3 year old design but,
-check out avalon for hdf, or rockport for rigidity issues, everyone is trying to make the cabinets more rigid but you dont. interesting.
-rigidity doesnt offer any new resonances, buy an accelerometer please, the more rigid it gets, resonances occur in lower hertzs. Thus they are more inaudible.
-Even midrange drivers (which are far more less vibrating than woofers) benefit from back support. Check out the linkwitz site please. You cant stop a woofer from vibrating with a chasis , even stamped or not, those lower octaves can even shake your sofa, or wardrobe, or even your walls at high levels. We even can make a fork like support to final mid/hi array from back.
-And the vertical coil alignment , after 3 years I can understand it must be hard to feel the energy to change it, but you can push the mid a bit back to woofer line, and make a bigger deeper horn (please not made out of mdf, i can see it is easy to use it on cnc) with some heavy material , like a rubber-plastic mix to a mold, we dont try to make it easy, these production issues can be solved easily when it comes down to mass production.
And please bury the super t in this big horn , much closer to its throat, this make time-phase much better.
-And yes , 1st order crossovers are the best in phase and realism,especially butterworths, blind tests must be made with 10 or more people not with 2. When you vent a cabinet , you will be gaining a very late time response from the backwall , not a simple reflection from the cabinet. The final product must be as much as room placement free I think. If the vent is a necessity maybe we can place it on bottom and leave the top woofer sealed , a hybrid model?
-Your resistors coils and caps are or middle-to-high category, please use mundorf supremes or listen to them, when coils are goertz coppers, skin effect is history. And go for vishay mil specs , alu body models , they are the best in resistors. Both in vibration and sonic characteristics. I do believe in cables sound very different, and the best I heard is Van den Hul`s Breeze Hybrid, this is insanely expensive , but maybe a lower silver type can be of use? I still dont know the final product`s end user target price.
-I dont understand the bi-wire need, and probably never will understand.
But please use wtbs , maybe silver ones.
-The main goal can be over 100db in sensitivity with multiple woofers, which will put the final product in another league amongst competitors.
-And if you try the tiles solution, apply some soft silicone/glue mix to attach them. They like that.
-If I `m excited too much , I think thats goood! :bouncy:

Mr. Widget
10-26-2007, 08:52 AM
that is sooo negative ,
I didn't mean to come off negatively... I was merely commenting on some of your suggestions. I didn't comment on the tile concept as I have no experience with adding bits of hard reflective material to the inside of a cabinet... it may be brilliant. I have no idea... I didn't comment on putting a wedge in the back of a cabinet, though I have done that sort of thing in the past and do believe it can be a good thing in certain cases. Unfortunately building in a wedge or other non parallel rear surface also takes up volume and most of the time we are trying to keep volume down to a minimum.

As for your clamping the woofer frame in the cabinet comment... I didn't say you were wrong. I said that I thought that you were wrong and that it should be easy to test the concept rather than sitting around speculating on it.



i can understand that you dont want me to mess with a 3 year old design but,
In my own projects I tend to continue messing around with them for years until I think I've made the best set of compromises for the design... in the case of Project May, I've run out of time that I can dedicate to that project and any further development is in the hands of others. That said, the "client", Don McRitchie, has chosen the design he wants and so that is it.




-I dont understand the bi-wire need, and probably never will understand.We certainly agree there... I think that far too many of the typical audiophile notions are just plain silly... however, I also think there are times when even something as silly as bi-wiring might actually do some good... and then there is the psychological side of this whole thing. I find the placebo effect in audio to be an area of great interest.



-If I `m excited too much , I think thats goood! :bouncy:Nothing wrong with getting excited about speaker design... I've been doing this since the middle '70s and I still get goose bumps.


Widget

sahinderya
10-27-2007, 03:07 PM
As for the front baffle, can we put the woofers on a cylinder like shapes.
maybe 3 cm in length. This will reduce the baffle issue largely. Rest of the baffle can stay the same, but this forward outgrowth (overhang) will be good.
Cnc can easily dig the shape out of mdf or hdf?
I wish I can draw it on cad, may be I can draw it on paper and scan it for you guys.

I think the color and dark lines on the sides, give the design a bit JMlab look.
I wish it was all out of most noble color ; black . :bouncy:
Maybe you guys check the 3m info on my site, Jbl may want to offer this product with any kind of graphical options. Maybe may himself, or user selectable?


http://www.handmadehifi.com/3mfinish.html

scott fitlin
10-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Sahinderya,

I went through your website, I agree with some of the things you say.

I REALLY like that Gomalak Lacquer finish! Very sharp and elegant.

REAL handbuilt craftsmanship.

:thmbsup:

JBL 4645
10-28-2007, 08:02 PM
Que?
http://handmadehifi.com/

No way would I desecrate my JBL in those wild colours.

sahinderya

Welocme

Find the right fitting of the loudspeakers for the enclosure and use an electronic crossover network like the DCX2496 from Behringer, it’s got an assorted use of Butterworth Bessel and Linkwitz-Riley to choose from.

sahinderya
10-30-2007, 03:16 AM
thank you friends for all the comments on my site, but lets discuss the May here, what do you say to this lego teeth like woofer mounting?
When woofer comes a bit forward, we can hide the shape under some speaker cloth on all sides?

Also do you have any suggestions about the inner cabling?

timc
10-30-2007, 04:12 AM
About BiWire.....without it you can't Biamp ;)

sahinderya
10-31-2007, 12:47 AM
I wanted to make it a bit taller and slender, and inserted some art-deco iron bars and furniture like feet (what i draw looks like something more devilish though) , I`ve always wanted good iron feet like old retro furniture or cabinets, but never saw on hi-fi gear, maybe it suit our project and make it look more interesting and sturdy.
I couldnt draw the angled view of woofer detail for the forward mounting, the one on the right top is view from above maybe that`ll help.
Underneath is mid section with reduced baffle.

sahinderya
11-01-2007, 09:38 PM
for the iron parts, nickel plated shining finish can be very catchy,
and this will make a total contrast with the all black gloss paint I suggested ,the rings around forward mounted woofers will look also very cool? (and the retro furniture like feet too) . I never saw anything like this?

I thought about Mr. May`s relief , 2 per speaker, 4 in total , maybe we can cast them with some molds, the computer operated cnc mold makers can easily dig the picture out of any material, after the mold has been made, polyol based elastic materials (like polyurethane elastomers ;this is also my preference in horn body materials final surface) can be used for this ,which will give them a dark opaque gray/black tone, and a new non-resonant other layer can be easily added to sides without much nonsense thickness, and a gain will be added in vibration isolation.
Also making the cabinet detached from one other, and putting the crossovers in mid cabinet will also reduce all the harm, maybe as I drew the lower woofer cabinet can be ported, and upper one be sealed? A hybrid alignment will make the upper low-to-mid characteristic better I think.
Lowest octave will came out of port from the bottom woofer, and sealed character of upper woofer will make the transition far more seamless/neutral.
Making the cabinet slender rather than fat and low make the lowest octave gain more audible, think it like a flute. I wish i could actually listen and measure the drivers, than I can maybe more helpful in terms of electronics.

sahinderya
11-04-2007, 05:42 PM
well i`ve tried to do some drawings and rendering in 3d for the first time.
I couldnt draw the feet and turn them to the sides I wanted (dont ask about the horn section)
But this will give a good idea I think.
I dont have any batteries left when I got new ones , I `ll try to post a neat Idea about inductors with pictures.

sahinderya
11-13-2007, 05:29 PM
still no batteries,
but I can show you later , and tell about it now,
I always buy some pure lead bars, and hammer them as belts , wrap them around any type of coils , I dont know why this always pays off with a very silent background and superb shielding for them, (no necessary for 90 degrees lay out etc. )

oh and I forgot to post one of my images, I `m getting a little help now for my 3d drawings, soon I`ll be posting a so corrected (with horns and real feet) images I hope.

Please add some comments.
Sahin

johnaec
11-13-2007, 05:57 PM
Well, I have to admit - they're very striking! Some might find them a little too much "Darth Vader" for the typical home, though, with all the black and chrome. It'd be interesting seeing the design done with contrasting natural wood finishes in place of the black and chrome.

John

mikebake
11-13-2007, 07:34 PM
... and then there is the psychological side of this whole thing. I find the placebo effect in audio to be an area of great interest.


Widget
As the good Dr. Bruce quoted someone else........"you see what you hear, and you hear what you see"............
Much truth in that, re the placebo effect.

scott fitlin
11-14-2007, 03:55 PM
well i`ve tried to do some drawings and rendering in 3d for the first time.
I couldnt draw the feet and turn them to the sides I wanted (dont ask about the horn section)
But this will give a good idea I think.
I dont have any batteries left when I got new ones , I `ll try to post a neat Idea about inductors with pictures.you know, Sahinderya, you could put your talents to work in our DIY section, helping people create ULTIMATE version JBL,s, with your know how and technical expertise.

I really like some of your ideas, theories, and products.

I sort of feel the McRitchie speakers are a done deal, but, you have talent, and you belong in our public forums mapping out some really wicked modifications, and DIY designs!

I really dig your stuff! And, I love that Gomalak lacquer! SHARP.

4313B
11-14-2007, 05:17 PM
you know, Sahinderya, you could put your talents to work in our DIY section, helping people create ULTIMATE version JBL,s, with your know how and technical expertise.We definitely need more expertise in the DIY section! :yes:

sahinderya
11-15-2007, 08:19 PM
Thank you for all comments,
if magnepans can find places for themselves I think these can too.
I put the 3 metal bars to hide closer placement of the drivers, that doesnt show too much in my drawing (I`ll be correcting that) , and a speaker this tall should be somewhat focused in terms of baffle angle to listener for closer listening positions. I think we have to bend the upper woofer baffle a bit to front (maybe 8-10 degrees). As for the horns, I dont know much about them, when I tried to learn some from Jbl`s archives I `ve noticed the hourglass looking horns are always more user friendly, one thing I want to do is alter the performance of Be super t`s performance via using a different shaped horn. We can do the needed correction with notching and padding but maybe it is possible to push upper 10khz region with a physical shape? I`ve tried to contact with mr.widget but he is too far busy , asked him about the grilled horns and hourglass shaped horn types, maybe one of us can tell more about these.

And about the nickel platings, when I recall my childhood memories Istanbul was full of old american cars from 40`s through 60`s, they were built like tanks and incredibly comfortable, HUGE , and ``shiny`` , maybe this is the reason. My first school bus(!) was an chevrolet 56 Bel Air :).


Thank you all for reading,
Sahin

Mr. Widget
11-15-2007, 11:41 PM
Not sure how old you are, but I remember taking those dolmush taxis in Istanbul in the '60s that were old Packards...and how they were often adorned with extra bits of eye candy.

Actually your designs remind me of German designs along the lines of the MBL stuff...


Widget
Thank you for all comments,
if magnepans can find places for themselves I think these can too.
I put the 3 metal bars to hide closer placement of the drivers, that doesnt show too much in my drawing (I`ll be correcting that) , and a speaker this tall should be somewhat focused in terms of baffle angle to listener for closer listening positions. I think we have to bend the upper woofer baffle a bit to front (maybe 8-10 degrees). As for the horns, I dont know much about them, when I tried to learn some from Jbl`s archives I `ve noticed the hourglass looking horns are always more user friendly, one thing I want to do is alter the performance of Be super t`s performance via using a different shaped horn. We can do the needed correction with notching and padding but maybe it is possible to push upper 10khz region with a physical shape? I`ve tried to contact with mr.widget but he is too far busy , asked him about the grilled horns and hourglass shaped horn types, maybe one of us can tell more about these.

And about the nickel platings, when I recall my childhood memories Istanbul was full of old american cars from 40`s through 60`s, they were built like tanks and incredibly comfortable, HUGE , and ``shiny`` , maybe this is the reason. My first school bus(!) was an chevrolet 56 Bel Air :).


Thank you all for reading,
Sahin

sahinderya
11-19-2007, 07:18 PM
I`ve met this Roland from Holland yesterday, he is quite a reasonable guy.
He uses some of these coils, which I wonder how they sound and soon try to buy some , he designs with horns (before his site) and t-lines , he suggested using c-coils for woofer section, and I saw something called C-Coil and wax coil for the first time in Jantzen`s site.

http://www.crafty.nl (http://www.crafty.nl/) (Roland`s)

http://www.jantzen-audio.com (http://www.jantzen-audio.com/)

well dolmush taxis are gone now, replaced by some weird cheap ford van`s, since 1994. miss `em.

sahinderya
11-20-2007, 10:08 PM
I`ve been researching with an aluminum compound called alufoam.
It is used for vibration/noise insulation, mainly in aircraft and industrial working places. It has some incredible characteristic and can be easily baked in any shape. The material is in dust form before baking procedure and simply takes the shape of the mold after. Alufoam can be made aesthetically pleasant too according to Izmir High Tech Inst.`s prof Mustafa Guden. We are not able to bake any big pieces due to finance problems, but material is promising too much. Better than aluminum , much more absorbent. I intent to use it as front baffle or full of cabinet material. Spoke to b&w about it , but they seem to find it too expensive compared with all those mdf related sandwich stuff.
I dont know why people still bother with designing with pure aluminum.
Wouldnt it be superb to make our front baffle with this? Maybe will be another first to draw attention.
and it can be put together from small pieces too, accepts epoxy , glue etc.

The simplest form of alufoam looks like this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aluminium_foam.jpg

I`ve contacted with Jantzen people and they send me some info about waxed coils, wax is used to make them hard as bone and it is an old technique of making coils according to them.
And still I`ve never heard the drivers of our project but, bybee purifiers are said to be very benefical and positively reviewed , some companies are using them between binding posts and crossovers.

sahinderya
11-30-2007, 04:28 PM
I got the detail level a little bit higher , and with help from my friend Mr. Aydin Titiz we draw the horn (Bi-Radial type , coaxial with super T ).
Sorry for the ridiculous woofer texture, I`ll upgrade it too.
The feet are the hardest, we are trying to draw them.

JBL 4645
01-20-2009, 04:42 PM
Well, I have to admit - they're very striking! Some might find them a little too much "Darth Vader" for the typical home, though, with all the black and chrome. It'd be interesting seeing the design done with contrasting natural wood finishes in place of the black and chrome.

John

You’ll feel the force chocking effect with these JBL!:D

By the guys birthday is today where is he? I guess some just give it in or maybe he’s got something on his plate maybe a new project?

:birthday:sahinderya where ever you are?

sahinderya
03-09-2009, 11:00 PM
You’ll feel the force chocking effect with these JBL!:D

By the guys birthday is today where is he? I guess some just give it in or maybe he’s got something on his plate maybe a new project?

:birthday:sahinderya where ever you are?


Thanks man, 35 now , halved the way :(
busy with guitars and stuff lately,
built some celestion vintage 30 cabinets with hi-fi ideas , and built an plexi superlead 100 clone.
(I`ve even built a custom lefty explorer too, cnc and some other parts arrived from us and all around the world)

Got the pictures and if I have the time will post them on my site and to you guys.

There is so much these two branches have in common, and guitar stuff are way too behind in our understanding of amps/speakers etc.
Most musicians wont bother, pros are somewhat interested , and they all tend to settle what they think ``the best`` at the moment; which is I find lack of belief in force :D .

Especially guitar humbuckers (pickups) wont even use some magnet alloys and use designs as old as 50 years. I know they are well tested and sounds good, but I cant help to wonder how will a neodymium magnet sound , and active coil designs placed differently make the noise levels differ/sensitivity better.

Just take a look at what a hi-fi guy can do within this field (our Ken Kantor): http://www.ztamplifiers.com/
(check out the lunchbox dimensions and spl carefuly) :)