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brutal
10-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Gear:

Setup needs work...but,

250Ti's est. 1986 build. Attenuation Shorting strips all at 0db. Cheap 16/18 gauge wire for the initial listening.

Yamaha RXV2400 HT processor, YPAO re-tuned and manually tweaked a bit with the 250Ti's in the system. Need to hit it with the Avia DVD and SPL meter yet after changing cables and resolving my other issues.
Dual Yamaha M-80's bridged (250WPC @8Ohms, est. 400WPC+ bridged) using a C-80 front end (built-in pre-out inverter stage) for the mains, other channels running direct from the 2400.
Yamaha DVD-C940 SACD capable

Haven't yet gotten around to listening to an LP on the Technics SL1600MKII and I'm getting some intermittent buzz/hum in my EQ/DBX 3BX-DS stack that I need to track down, so they're out of the loop for now (tape looped into the C-80)

CD's played so far:
DSOTM SACD
Stevie Ray's - The Sky is Cryin'
Blues Traveller - Four
Green Day - American Idiot
(I don't own any classical or much Jazz...)

Haven't moved into any DVD movies yet as I want to at least replace the mains cables.

Please bear with my layman's understanding and wannabe audiophile perceptions. Some of it may sound like regurgitation from the recently posted article on speaker placement, but that piece did help me formulate the descriptions for the bass response I was struggling with. I do disagree with at least one of the author's comments: ("bridged amps dull")?

On first blush, they certainly are smooth, don't appear to have any holes, and image better than anything I've ever heard. Opimax had asked me in a previous thread to comment on my impression of the bass. I would describe it as massive and weighty, but on some tracks, it seems to lack the raw punch or "slam" that the littler L112's have, but is certainly tighter and less boomy. Kind of like the difference between getting hit by a Bugatti Veyron (L112) going 200+MPH and a GE locomotive going 70MPH (250Ti) -- they generally have the same effect but it just feels different. I could say it is "reserved, meaty, solid, thick." Although the L112's sit back in flanking built-in bookcases, they image better and are less boomy when pulled out away from their boundaries a foot or two.

The 250Ti's certainly benefit from the addition of a big sub, and (purists look away) the 7-channel stereo mode and SACD surround on DSOTM with some LFE reinforcement are simply stunning. I can only imagine what they might sound like with some of the LH crew's CC networks.

The overall impression is starting to grow on me. I think possibly all these years of listening to the "in your face" L112's have trained my ear to them - I still think the L112's sound significantly better than any of the others I had in the stable prior to getting the 250Ti's - 4310, L100, L56, S38, SVA1600... To my ear, L100's are muddy and weaksauce.

Even at ear splitting listening levels, the 250Ti's stay smooth, don't break up, continue to image well and, although my ears are still ringing from some of the volumes I attained towards the end of the session, I feel I could listen to them for hours at moderately high levels without tiring of them. With the Yami tuned to THX reference levels on all channels, I can only hit about -8db on the dial before I feel my ears start to ooze a little blood. The M-80's, input levels at max, are nearing their limit at that volume but still have plenty of headroom to avoid clipping.

My placement is not optimal in the current listening environment as I have clutter between them and the back/side walls. The room measures 19x13 & change with an open end on one corner. For HT, the Center is a Def Tech CLR2002, Rear L/R and Back L/R Surrounds are Def Tech BP2X placed just below the ceiling. Not the most optimal placements as well, but I have an entry door and the open space to deal with. Until I can build a room to my specs in a new house, it has to get me by. Front L/R Presence are JBL S38 up high. Sub is SVS 20-39PC+. The Yamaha's YPAO really does a wonderful job of adjusting for placement and distance, checks phasing (important when mixing in old JBL's) and the Parametric EQ helps to flatten the response and offset the lack of timbre matching amongst the different components.

I'll keep listening and working in some improvements - better cables, de-oxit on my interconnects and such. I expect the experience to only get better.

Cheers!
http://lh6.google.com/rjterry21/Rxp4NfjuydI/AAAAAAAAAd8/DHem6ULFhlY/s800/family%20room%20zoom.jpg

Titanium Dome
10-20-2007, 07:55 PM
Those bumps on the rear of the side walls and the back wall are the surrounds?

brutal
10-20-2007, 09:28 PM
Yes, they're Def Tech BP2X bi-polar surrounds.

GordonW
10-25-2007, 04:58 PM
One thing to try, is maybe using an amp that doesn't need to be bridged, to give the power you want. We used to get FANTASTIC results from the 250Tis, using HK Citation 22 power. This MIGHT get a little more midbass slam out of them... the extra current capacity of a big stereo amp, as opposed to sheer voltage but less current to "back it up" of bridged amps...

An exception to this rule, is that I've heard bridged Urei/JBL 6260s on these... and WOW. Of course, these were 2-ohm rated amps, IIRC... LOADS of current capacity...

Regards,
Gordon.

brutal
10-25-2007, 08:10 PM
Thanks for the feedback. However, The Yamaha M-80's are mono-block amps conservatively rated at 250/290/330WPC into 8/6/4 Ohms, and will handle a 2Ohm load to 850W of dynamic power. They're not even considered bridgeable amps, but the C80's inverted pre-out stage lets me run the pair bridged. I estimate them at a conservative 400WPC@8Ohms bridged. I don't see how a Citation 22, rated at 200WPC could possibly provide more mid-bass slam. The L112's (albeit easier to drive) have plenty of slam with these amps. The Yami's are certainly not considered "audiophile" by most snobs, but are one of the best SS amps to come out of the 80's IMHO. I wish I had the skills to do some of the upgrades I've seen.

Maybe I'm expecting too much of the 250Ti's. I realize they're not big monitors, but a big 4-way with an 8" mid-bass and 14" woofer should be able to outperform the 3-way L112's with a big enough amp like the Yami's. The 250Ti's do have a BIG sound, not nearly as bright as the L112's, but the SLAM just isn't there. They do sound TREMENDOUS running with my SVS Sub. The combo will scramble your innards.

I have noticed the narrow surrounds on the LE14's are really stiff. From what I've read, this is normal? Owner claimed he had them refoamed a few years back. I still haven't gotten inside to check polarity, but the Yami indicates they're in-phase (with the wiring out-of-phase.) Only thing I've had time to do so far this week is to deoxit all the screws and straps on the x-over. Didn't seem to make much difference.

Also, is it at all feasible that the 044 innards (foam plug) on the L112's hasn't deteriorated and the 044Ti's have? The L112's are older than the 250Ti's. Hmm:hmm:

Anyone know Giskard's current rate to Aquaplas 044Ti's? :D

Cheers!

Andyoz
10-26-2007, 12:09 AM
I'd also try them with another amp.

I've used a few different ones on my 250Ti's and the bottom end has sounded totally different with all of them. The Bryston match seems perfect but they're not cheap unfortunately. Do you know anyone who could let you try some amp(s).

I just think amp design has come so far since the 80's.

jblnut
10-26-2007, 06:38 AM
Let me toss my $.02 into this....

First off, nice choice of amps :). I've been using big Yamaha power on my 250's for many years. I use the professional amps (PC2002M and PC4002M) but the results should be similar. Let me give you some hints on improving the bass:

1) Move them back closer to the rear walls. I guarantee that if you move your 112's right next to the 250's they will no longer "out slam" them.

2) Start dropping the xover bars down to -1 db and mabye even -2db. This will have the effect of raising the input on the LE14. I run mine at -1 db.

3) Don't be afraid to equalize or boost the bass electronically. As long as you keep up with the LE14 power-wise (and you should have no issues there), there is more bass to be had.

4) Sit closer to the rear wall. The bass will be the weakest in the middle of the room and stronger near the rear.

As far as your surrounds go, stiffness is normal. The LE14H-1 doesn't move much even at insane volume.


The longer you listen to 250's, the more natural they begin to sound. Other speakers will sound boomy and you'll notice colorations and peaks/dips in the sound that 250's just don't have.

jblnut

Ian Mackenzie
10-26-2007, 05:01 PM
From what you describe it may be that certain listening and loudspeaker locations will favour particular bass tone's. This is because in all rooms we have what are termed room modes.

I have no doubt the 112's that your ear has been train on for some time will appear preferable on sometimes. That is normal. Often a loudspeaker that does not go as low or as smooth will get your attention but that does not make them better. Make sure the 112's are out of the room when you play the 250's or at least short the rear terminals of the 112's.



Enjoy

Ian

Mr. Widget
10-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Let me give you some hints on improving the bass:
1) Move them back closer to the rear walls. I guarantee that if you move your 112's right next to the 250's they will no longer "out slam" them.That's true...


From what you describe it may be that certain listening and loudspeaker locations will favour particular bass tone's. This is because in all rooms we have what are termed room modes.Yep...

Your room diagram is most helpful. If I had your room, I'd likely also set the speakers up as you have. It will give you leaner bass, but it will very likely also give you the most articulate bass and if you sit on your coffee table, it will also image the best. If this was my house there would be a listening chair placed where your table is or the table would be on casters allowing the room to be transformed into a listening room when appropriate.

From your comments it would seem that big bass and max SPL is your thing... in that case, I guess you should place the speakers along the side wall and sit opposite them in the love seat. In this arrangement you will gain SPL from being nearer the speakers and you will be sitting in a region of maximum bass gain. This wouldn't be my thing, but you might really like it.

Actually, if max SPL and big bass are important to you, I'd look at other speaker designs. The 250Tis are no slouches, but they are far from the scream'nist, rock'nist, power monsters going.


Widget

brutal
10-26-2007, 10:51 PM
From what you describe it may be that certain listening and loudspeaker locations will favour particular bass tone's. This is because in all rooms we have what are termed room modes.

I have no doubt the 112's that your ear has been train on for some time will appear preferable on sometimes. That is normal. Often a loudspeaker that does not go as low or as smooth will get your attention but that does not make them better. Make sure the 112's are out of the room when you play the 250's or at least short the rear terminals of the 112's.



Enjoy

Ian

"Make sure the 112's are out of the room when you play the 250's or at least short the rear terminals of the 112's."

Thanks for the great responses. I'm curious about the above comment. Are you implying that the LF driver in the L112 (when not powered) can have an adverse interaction with the 250TI's when playing unless I short the connections?

Ian Mackenzie
10-26-2007, 11:01 PM
Yes,

The cones will move, no doubt about it. Shorting the terminals will help bit not eliminate the cone acting as moving diaphragm.

Ian

Andyoz
10-27-2007, 12:45 AM
In addition to room modes, there's another low-frequency effect to consider. It is the way the direct energy from the speaker interacts with the reflected energy off the room surfaces nearby surfaces, particular the nearest corner. This causes bass peaks or troughs that don't change that much with listener location.

This is totally different to room modes which are reflected energy interacting with itself to create peaks and troughs that vary from location to location around the room (sometimes called "Standing Waves")

To get over this fact you can either move the speaker as close to the corner as possible or as far away as possible (or soffit mount!!). Moving the speaker close to the corner will really drive the room modes and that causes other issues (potentially).

The way you have them sitting in the room, you would be getting serious "suck outs" in the response around 80-100Hz and the upper bass is where alot of the "slam" energy is with rock music.

I'd either try moving them closer to the rear wall surface. Or potentially better still, move them to the long wall as this will allow you to place them closer to one boundary (the side wall in you existing set-up) and much further from your existing rear wall (with the TV). This should break up these cancellations to some degree but not 100%

gerard
10-27-2007, 01:19 AM
Hello Jblnut

Do you finally use tube amp on your Hf 250 Ti network ?

Gerard

opimax
10-27-2007, 06:08 AM
I have found my 250ti lacking in bass since I have them. I have replaced all drivers , not much difference, replaced XO with charge coupled, accented the mids and highs so bass seem even less. Biamped, speakers can make bass when fed much power!

Pretty sure my setup and house just aren't bass friendly but i still think something is not right but much power will take care of my problem. I also use 2 subs, 1 b460 and a velodyne spl 1200r with velodyne sms1 controller. Fully convinced i should be able to put out my windows but haven't been able to yet, lol

I am still experimenting , going to eventually try an active xo and bypass the ones I installed, maybe try the original XO just hooked up to the woofers while the rest is hooked up to the new ones.

make sure you checked phasing, at least verify w/battery (somebody may have been in the speakers before you bought them)and recheck wires (obvious but should be said :) )

Mark

jblnut
10-27-2007, 08:15 AM
Hello Jblnut

Do you finally use tube amp on your Hf 250 Ti network ?

Gerard

Indeed I have! It all started when my larger Yamaha amp needed to go in the shop. My friend lent me his heavily modified Dynaco ST70 and it was all over. I was hooked in the first hour and the amp just sounded better the longer I left it on. With his help I began to search for an ST70 that had been upgraded as his had. We didn't have much luck but we did come across a beautiful pair of Mark III monoblocks that had been completely rebuilt with all the Curcio mods (http://www.curcioaudio.com/dynadr_3.htm). I guess it was my lucky day on ebay becuse I put in a lowball bid (less than the cost of the upgrade kits alone, not to mention labor and the cost of finding two decent Mark III's to start with) and somehow no one outbid me. The guy had a serious Mac upgrade bug and I was happy to help him on his way :).

So how do they sound ?

Absolutely fabulous. The system just sounds better the louder it gets. The highs never get edgy or overbearing and with the big Yamaha driving just the LE14H-1's I still have plenty of transistor power for room shaking bass. I tried the tube amps full range and immediately put the Yamaha back in. They just don't have the authority down low a ~500 watt transistor amp does.

They've been in my system almost a year now and I haven't changed a single thing since they went in. I've finally reached that place where everything sounds exactly like I want it to. I'm buying records and that's about it.

Oh, and thanks for turning me on to the older Miles recordings. I got a new pressing on 180 gram vinyl of Seven Steps to Heaven. It truly is....

Stop over the next time you're in the States :)

jblnut

brutal
10-27-2007, 08:34 AM
I have found my 250ti lacking in bass since I have them. I have replaced all drivers , not much difference, replaced XO with charge coupled, accented the mids and highs so bass seem even less. Biamped, speakers can make bass when fed much power!

Pretty sure my setup and house just aren't bass friendly but i still think something is not right but much power will take care of my problem. I also use 2 subs, 1 b460 and a velodyne spl 1200r with velodyne sms1 controller. Fully convinced i should be able to put out my windows but haven't been able to yet, lol

I am still experimenting , going to eventually try an active xo and bypass the ones I installed, maybe try the original XO just hooked up to the woofers while the rest is hooked up to the new ones.

make sure you checked phasing, at least verify w/battery (somebody may have been in the speakers before you bought them)and recheck wires (obvious but should be said :) )

Mark

I'm starting to think my issue is placement. I just don't have a good room setup to get these close enough to a solid wall along the rear plane. As seen in the diagram, they sit partially in front of the TV stand, a very sturdy, solid oak faced trim unit I made from 3/4" Oak two-faced ply, and the built-in bookcases.

My L112's sit in bookcases, so the bass is accentuated 3db per the tech sheets - although I haven't actually measured the difference.

I am going to crack the 250Ti's open this weekend and double check the LE14 wiring and take a good look at the XO to make sure nothing is smoked. The Yami has been good about ID'ing phase issues, but these auto EQ HT receivers are not infallible, esp with all the driver phase changes in a 4-way. I also haven't had time to run the Avia DVD through the system and fine tune the Yami's PEQ settings. I notice it did crank up the db in the upper freq's. which also explains my perception of the 250Ti's being more neutral, smooth, and less bright than the L112's.

Mr. Widget
10-27-2007, 08:43 AM
Maybe I'm expecting too much of the 250Ti's.


I have found my 250ti lacking in bass since I have them. I think expectations and personal preference are always a really big deal... so is the application. For movie soundtracks most of us want significantly more low end power than for music, and even here... the type of music you mainly listen too makes a huge difference on your low frequency demands.


Pretty sure my setup and house just aren't bass friendly but i still think something is not right but much power will take care of my problem. I also use 2 subs, 1 b460 and a velodyne spl 1200r with velodyne sms1 controller.
Then again... you might have a point. Some rooms do suck the bottom out of a system and you may have to use devastating amounts of power to achieve your goal. A pair of Velodyne DD 18s should take care of those windows.:D


Widget

gerard
10-27-2007, 08:43 AM
Well , I think tube amp for the mid's are really best with 250 models and 50 watts is the minimum so the dynaco would fit .


I change my mono blocks 40 watts tube who went to my 434x to Rogue tube with 2x150 watts so I have plenty power with tube quality .


jblnut : What do you use as active crossover ?

And if you have ever the chance to listen to a tube preamplifier with phono tube , try it you will never go back to Transistor phono RIAA . You will stay with Miles for ever :D

Gerard

Mr. Widget
10-27-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm starting to think my issue is placement.Quite likely... as Andyoz and I mentioned, changing your orientation 90º will likely improve your low end... I realize this would not be a trivial change, but it might be possible. Putting your speakers in the two corners may also help, but typically this will create a very boomy bass... and as important as speaker placement is, the primary listening position is also critical.

Do you mostly use the system for music playback or for movies and surround mixes?


Widget

Andyoz
10-27-2007, 09:18 AM
I have my 250's installed in a "temporary" listening room that is only 13ft x 13ft. Mine are about 6" from the side and rear walls (measured from the large base footprint of the enclosure)

I was prepared for some terribly boomy bass, etc. but it just hasn't happended. Sometimes the weirdest arrangements just work !

I am coming to the conclusion that with these big speakers you either use them in a reasonably small room or a very large room. It's the in-between sized rooms that seem to create the worst issues at the bottom end IMO (at least in the UK where we generally have solid block wall layers).

Have a read of this (page 6 at least) as they can explain it better than me.

http://www.rpginc.com/cgi-bin/byteserver.pl/news/library/PS_AcD.pdf

brutal
10-27-2007, 10:55 AM
Quite likely... as Andyoz and I mentioned, changing your orientation 90º will likely improve your low end... I realize this would not be a trivial change, but it might be possible. Putting your speakers in the two corners may also help, but typically this will create a very boomy bass... and as important as speaker placement is, the primary listening position is also critical.

Do you mostly use the system for music playback or for movies and surround mixes?


Widget

I would say "mostly" for movies, and they certainly have improved the overall system in that regard. I re-watched Matrix last night at reference levels and it was definitely "bigger" than with the L112's. However, I do a fair amount, maybe 25%, of 2-channel listening, a mix of LP, CD, and iPod. My source material is pretty much classic & modern rock with a little metal and punk rock. AC/DC to Zeppelin with a little Megadeth, Green Day and One Man Army thrown in. Big fan of the more instrumental groups - Tull, Pink Floyd, Rush, so critical reproduction is a large part of my expectation.

I've tried in vain to rework the orientation of the whole room 90º, it just doesn't work with the furniture and that dang patio door. I'd also be too close to the 52" DLP. Other than re-checking all the internal wiring and tuning the system up as a whole with Avia, I'm pretty much stuck with the arrangement for now and will just have to augment the 2-channel listening I do with the Sub until I can swing into a semi-custom home I'm shooting for in a few years - hopefully in a better housing market. We've been here since 1995 and now that the kids are gone, it's time for a change.

I may get adventurous later and try to get some decent measurements to see if a bass trap is in order. I don't want to travel that twisty road just yet...

4313B
10-27-2007, 11:15 AM
Have you considered selling the 112's and 250's and buying the Performance Series or small 8-inch or 10-inch Array Series?

opimax
10-27-2007, 02:54 PM
My 120 on the floor are more bassy but it is not the quality bass in comparison. I haven't biamped in while but my memory was when the low end amp gains were increased it increased the correct frequencies for my expectations while still sounding natural. The speakers definitely make some bass and loud but it took some real power. Sometimes recording quality can make a large difference.

I haven't tried the 90 degree rotation, won't work at all, doorways, stairs,
more doorways, too bad :banghead:, need a new house

Mark

brutal
10-27-2007, 05:18 PM
Have you considered selling the 112's and 250's and buying the Performance Series or small 8-inch or 10-inch Array Series?

I could never bring myself to sell my 112's. The 250Ti's could be a different story if I can't work them in. I'm going to have to live with them for a while though considering I just recently laid out the $$$ for them.

Today I pulled all the drivers except the 044's and the one 104 I had already replaced just to double check everything. With the exception of one 104H missing a gasket (replaced from the spare), and one resistor wire touching an XO mounting bolt (should not have had any path to circuit and I moved it) on the right speaker, all is well.

Double checked the LE14's with a 9V batt and they both pull in with + on the black. XO to LE14 wired black-black and GRN-Red. The LE14 in the left speaker is a much older serial than the other (I'll be posting to the registry.) One 108H had a date on it (July 19 1986), the other had the gasket stuck onto the driver frame so I couldn't get anything off it.

Trivially, the XO board on lefty was blue.

I re-ran the EQ and level checks on the amp, not much change. They're still weak on the bass, but a 2-channel stereo setting that kicks in the sub, or a straight surround (no DSP modes) setting on 5.1 channel broadcasts (RAVE, etc.) are stunning.

mike
10-28-2007, 08:22 AM
I don't think a properly working pair of 250Ti's would dissapoint anyone with their low end performance. I would suspect a phasing problem as has been suggested. I'm not really a tube fanatic but I am quite surprised at how well the 250Ti's match up with a good tube amp. Logic would dictate that a large full range system like the 250Ti should be driven by a high quality solid state amp with the ability to control those big woofers, but some of the best sound I've gotten from my 250Ti's was with a vintage Marantz 8B (35wpc) and vintage Mcintosh MC225 (25WPC)tube amp. You would expect the bass to be sloppy and out of control but it is actually pretty decent provided the speakers are placed properly. I suspect the 250Ti's don't dip very low in impedance (compared to many modern high end speakers) and are therefore a friendly if not complimentary load for a good tube amp. I don't know of any other speaker (that I have heard at least) that achieves the level of transparency and frequency extension of the 250Ti that is as easy to drive.

Mike