Soundstage Paragon & S2600 compared

[Hoerninger]

I got in mind that the Paragon and the S2600 (or S3100, DD55000, horn 4660) (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18618) have something in common. Thanks to Fred Sanford (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18228) I got a good Paragon drawing, so I can point it out.

The S2600 (et al.) has a very specific directivity so that a special soundstage can be achieved. This can be compared with the soundstage of the Paragon I think:

As I do not assume that the Paragon is disguised in mysticism I made a drawing to analyze its sound reflector. The sound will be reflected just like light at a mirror. As I have no clue about the divergence of the Paragon horn (H5038) I choose a tangential direction at the mouth. The reflected beam is at right angle to the horn opening, more would make little sense. With this assumption there can be made a rough estimation (- I do not know any measurements).

With the arrangement of horn and reflector the sound from the horn is split into two parts. One part is unaffected (blue), the other one is reflected (red). The distribution angle (b-B) of the blue part is about the half of the other red part (a-A). So the sound intensity per angle of the red part is half of the blue part. Within the angle (b-B) there are round about three quarters of the sound energy, within the angle (a-b) only one quarter. This makes a difference in sound pressure of about 5 dB. As the sound pressure is higher in directions A and B than in the ones of a and b there is even a greater difference between direction A+B and a (more than 5 dB) with a presumably smooth transition.

When you look at the polar pattern of the S2600 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=188794&postcount=13) you see a maximum difference of 10 dB between the directions of 0 degrees and ca. 35 degrees at 2 kHz and 4 kHz. Obviously this is more than in my estimation above. It must be added that at the Paragon the angle between high and low level is not 35 degrees but ca. 90 degrees. Obviously the horn of the S2600 has a greater influence.

You are right if you consider that I do not own a S2600, otherwise I would not have made these thoughts ;). But everybody can experiment with the Paragon reflector: Take two pressboard with a length of about 90 cm (35 inch) for each side and bow each of them until there is a gap (?) of 8 cm (3 inches). I have tried this with two fullrange boxes. There is a stable stereo image (with a small basis) and an amazing soundstage all over the room. In a big room 7 m x 7m (23 ft x 23 ft) I placed the speakers in the corners, it was all over a fullfilling sound stage.

I hope you can read this fluently so that you are encouraged to read it twice if necessary.
___________
Peter

[Thom]

God, I hope you have the proper clearances to post about a paragon. Every time I even mention one I get creamed.

[Hoerninger]

God, I hope you have the proper clearances to post about a paragon. Every time I even mention one I get creamed.
Thank you for posting. I hope I have understood you correct:

Although there are ways to clone/rebuild a Paragon, I could not convince my wife. - Clearance?
I planned and let build a three way horn system (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11909&highlight=XXL) with a sound reflector. (Unfortunately too big, too heavy , too ugly.) - Need for getting creamed?
___________
Peter

[Thom]

Thank you for posting. I hope I have understood you correct:

Although there are ways to clone/rebuild a Paragon, I could not convince my wife. - Clearance?
I planned and let build a three way horn system (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11909&highlight=XXL) with a sound reflector. (Unfortunately too big, too heavy , too ugly.) - Need for getting creamed?
___________
Peter

Lurking in the hallways of this forum is a self appointed "lord of the paragon" who always lets me know I'm not worthy to post about his otherworldly beauty. Perhaps you will be judged worthy or perhaps he is sleeping. Because I realize English is not your first language I feel obligated to advise you not to take me to seriously although I didn't exactly make it up.

[Mr. Widget]

God, I hope you have the proper clearances to post about a paragon. Every time I even mention one I get creamed.
Dammit! You've done it again.... you posted that word!:rotfl:


Widget

[SUPERBEE]

I was unclear as to where cold beer and loud Rock & Roll is to be introduced into this thread about Paragons.


I like to listen to Howard Stern on my Paragon.:bouncy:

[Thom]

Where is Maron anyway?

[Hoerninger]

I like to listen to Howard Stern on my Paragon.

Superbee,

I was fully aware that I did not name this thread
"A theoretical investigation on the sound distribution with shifted polar patterns of speakers, a comparison of two JBL speaker models." :blah:
So sound experiences are welcome.
:cheers: :rockon1:
___________
Peter

[Maron Horonzakz]

Thom... I,m here my son !!!!! Remember only the mid driver is reflecting off the curved panel..

[Hoerninger]

For those who want to know more about the horn 4660 there is the theorie in a AES preprent (legal download):
http://www.dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(...lar%20Area.pdf (http://www.dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20%281983-10%20AES%20Preprint%29%20-%20Horn%20Covers%20Flat%20Rectangular%20Area.pdf)

For those who want to make their own drawings (or a clone ;) ) there is a 4800 x 1309 pixel PARAGON top view (gif) down here.
____________
Peter

[57BELAIRE]

I was unclear as to where cold beer and loud Rock & Roll is to be introduced into this thread about Paragons.


I like to listen to Howard Stern on my Paragon.:bouncy:

well, I think I'll crank up the "king of the recroom", pour a cold
one and groove on EVH's "Drop Dead Legs".

Thanks SB, I was just looking for an excuse. :D

[Thom]

I've only ever listened to two paragons, one of which was heavily modified. It had 6 extra cubic feet behind each LE15A and PR15's, and compared to it the original one sucked. It also had a 500 square foot room.

[Maron Horonzakz]

than that one was a abomination not a Paragon.:D

[Thom]

You didn't hear it!

[SUPERBEE]

well, I think I'll crank up the "king of the recroom", pour a cold
one and groove on EVH's "Drop Dead Legs".

Thanks SB, I was just looking for an excuse. :D


Exactly what those monsters were made for. Enjoy!


I've only ever listened to two paragons, one of which was heavily modified. It had 6 extra cubic feet behind each LE15A and PR15's, and compared to it the original one sucked. It also had a 500 square foot room.

Ditto, That is NOT a Paragon.

[Maron Horonzakz]

I dont have to...Its still not a Paragon;)

[Thom]

Would you claim a Paragon couldn't be improved on? They weren't collectors items at the time. You could still buy them new.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Improved on? A passive radiater would not be an improvement.... A better tweeter like the 2405 would add extension at the top... the new JBL 476 mid driver would probably extend to 20K. giving better bandwidth across the curved panel.. The horn cutoff on the bass bin is a limiting factor. adding additional cubic feet internal volume is not enough.

[Oldmics]

Maron

Do you have the plans for a Paragon?

One of the things that I always wanted to do is calculate the horns cut off frequency according to the plans.

Are you in a position to do that chore?

If you are not,then eventually I will do it.

I would just like to have the hard data.:blink:

Best regards,Oldmics

[Allanvh5150]

well, I think I'll crank up the "king of the recroom", pour a cold
one and groove on EVH's "Drop Dead Legs".

Thanks SB, I was just looking for an excuse. :D


"Drop Dead Legs". Now there is a song worthy of cranking up!:)

[grumpy]

...calculate the horns cut off frequency according to the plans.

just eyeballing the first post in this thread, it doesn't appear that the horn length
could be much more than ~55" or ~60Hz for 1/4 wavelength... is that what you're
after? -g

[Maron Horonzakz]

No i do not have the plans any more...I wish I did. But to me it sure looks like a short horn....I have,nt calculated the deminshin of the mouth...It should be done. Flaire rate not much better either for a side scoop.

[Hoerninger]

No i do not have the plans any more...I wish I did.
Redrawn detailed plans are made available by Fritz Dahlke:
http://paragon.homelinux.net/index.html
He is a nice guy, his site is very informativ. You can get it for "your name and a click".
____________
Peter

[Thom]

I believe the mod more or less made the horn ornamental. The sound was very S8Rish with the spread mid's as for the 476 this was 1973. I'd call it the best Parigon I ever heard but I haven't heard enough for that to mean anything. He built a 500 sq ft room for it bi amp'd it with JBL 60 watt and Mac 2100 and it was impressive. Thorens TT Rabco electronic arm with "pop" kit, nice setup. Bass could have been tighter but thats true with every PR setup. I would have liked to hear it with the extra cubic feet and no PR but wasn't able to. Still I think it was a major improvement. The PR's were on the ends in the rear out of sight. I liked the base from a pair of C55's better but most people don't want that much speaker in their house. They usually only have one box that size in their house and it's in the kitchen full of food.

[Oldmics]

"just eyeballing the first post in this thread, it doesn't appear that the horn length
could be much more than ~55" or ~60Hz for 1/4 wavelength... is that what you're
after? -g
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

Grump

Yes,you and I are on the same page.

I figure that you are in the ball park with the frequency.

I just want to check the baffle board cutout dimension to the horn mouths area.

Its the same old story 20 minutes to do the calculations,six years to schedule the job. :banghead:

Oldmics

[Maron Horonzakz]

Ide rather listen than schedule the job...To me its easier to flip on the seperate subwoofer...

[Hoerninger]

The S2600 and the DD55000 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5671) have a similar soundstage. As stated in the white paper of the DD55000 the MF horn produces an asymmetrical horizontal coverage pattern. To match this pattern the off set angle of the LF transducer is 30 degrees and that of the UHF transducer is 60 degrees.
Some thoughts will show that this matching can be approximated with the PARAGON as well:

The drawing shows that the reflected sound waves from the MF horn seem to come from a virtual sound source at place X. Here the UHF horn should be placed. As the high frequencies will not be reflected at the paragon it is obvious to turn the UHF horn until a homogeneous stereo image at different listening positions is achieved. (The offset angle will not neccessarily be 60 degrees as with the DD55000.)

Placing at X there needs to be an additional time delay. Electronically this would be accomplished easiest. Otherwise if you have a defined listening position you can move the UHF horn at the line from your position across place X comparable with staggered placing.

------------

Finally a remark on localisation:

With panning, only changing the levels of left and right, you get a sharp localisation.
With an additional time delay with identical effect, for example left louder and left earlier, you get a good localisation.
But when level and delay work contrarily, for example left louder and right earlier, the localisation is not that sharp. This will happen when you sit off center of the Paragon , S2600 etc.

If there is a desire for sharp localisation regardless of listening position, it points to multichannel playback.
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Peter