new loudspeaker cable

[greyhound]

i got realy tired by the continues discussion on loudspeaker cables. me too has spend severel hunderds of euros on speakercable. so i took on an experiment and connected my speakers with simple 50ct a meter installation wire. its about 6 mm2 and consists of 7 bare wires of about 0,75mm2 massife copper. the normal 6mm2 is way to stiff to handle.

results are great. it doesnt sound better than expensive cable but it doesnt sound worse either. in fact its better than van den hull magnum cable of 30 euro's p/m. everything sounds just normal and neutral.

what kind of cable do you guys use. and has anyone experimented with coax cable. it seems aircom makes a good coax cable for radio transmission. you just use the centre of the cable. and the rest makes a nice shielded mantel

[scott fitlin]

I use West Penn 2 conductor + ground, with foil shield, and Switchcraft and Neutrik connectors, works just fine for me. Matter of fact, I, several years ago, tried a few different expensive cables, some I didnt hear a difference, and some I did, but didnt like it.

I agree, my inexpensive wire seems pretty neutral, and does only what it is supposed to! Get the signal from one place to another.

I save my money for things I know do make a difference! The speakers and electronics.

[00Robin]

on all the paper work for my 604's through the 755's the sheet advises lamp cord. And those are the exact words!! Honest. "simply split a small length of lampcord for the connection and then use as much as needed to split for the next"......???? Okay then.
But I did the Phoenix gold phase back when,had a "friend" steal it all,then I just used spools of a good sized thickness. Uh,I did not find any "lamp:blink:cord" available. Maybe we are all really missing out here and should get alot of "lampcord".

[Allanvh5150]

For 30 years or so, I have been using normal 1.5mm twin flex for my cables. If I am using a high powered amplifier I might use 2.5mm. It is very inexpensive compared to some brands of speaker cable and is a bit more upmarket than lampcord but the results on the pocket are very similar.:)

[Thom]

what kind of cable do you guys use. and has anyone experimented with coax cable. it seems aircom makes a good coax cable for radio transmission. you just use the centre of the cable. and the rest makes a nice shielded mantel

Generally coax is only called for if the signal is going to be amplified or in the case of radio transmission for a specific impedance.

[Zilch]

Life's too short to mess with trying to run speakers on coax.

It's a defined-purpose cable, and speakers aren't on the list.

Yeah, it's "Wire," but there are other issues.... :p

[doodlebug]

I've been using heavy duty extension cords with the AC connectors cut off - 10 gauge in my case. Found them at a contractor's sale at a local building supply house.

There was some buzz some time back about Home Depot's cords but that was one of those 'internet frenzy' things, I suppose.

Still, for the cost per foot, I can't find a more reasonable cost speaker connector in most any length I'd need and its really flexible, too.

Cheers,

David

[jblwolf]

Too bad SOUNDKING brand is no longer making 10ga/12ga/14ga speakerwire,I have used this brand for over 20+ years,Ive run 50 feet per channel,the 12ga-it had 320 strands/oxfree softbody cable,it really made a differents(to me)and after all those years it still in great shape,I also picked up monster cable brand at around the same time(14ga)and within 5 years it started discoloring(wire)/casing started to get sticky/hard.
From the crossovers to the speakers I use 16ga standard 10 strand machine wire.the 3 different systems I use(JBL)have been wired this way for over 20 years with no problems ever.

[sourceoneaudio]

This is what I use. Killer stuff. NO: 10 wire

"Dayton Audio's SKRL speaker wire is designed to complement any high-end audio system. Oxygen free copper (OFC) is configured in a rope-lay configuration to minimize skin effect which causes high frequency roll-off. Clear, flexible PVC insulation withstands abuse and is rated up to 140°F (60°C). Convenient foot and positive polarity markings facilitate ease of use. Construction: 413 strands x 36 AWG per conductor. "

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-028

[Thom]

I've been using heavy duty extension cords with the AC connectors cut off - 10 gauge in my case. Found them at a contractor's sale at a local building supply house.

There was some buzz some time back about Home Depot's cords but that was one of those 'internet frenzy' things, I suppose.

Still, for the cost per foot, I can't find a more reasonable cost speaker connector in most any length I'd need and its really flexible, too.

Cheers,

David

Cutting the AC connectors off is a good idea. More than one tragic incident has occurred when they have been left on.

[Titanium Dome]

Cutting the AC connectors off is a good idea. More than one tragic incident has occurred when they have been left on.

I always thought leaving the AC plugs on would allow you to connect them direct to the source, i.e., the power grid. :shock:

[greyhound]

well great to see that the jbl crowd is down to earth when cables are discussed. people over here are paying ridiculous amounts on cable and im talking 200 euro for 1 meter (thats about 4 foot? )
And the magazines are going along with it. seriously there was an article in some audio mag. that was about listening to audio furniture:applaud:

Yes its all true

[Titanium Dome]

Well, I actually use some 12 Ga Oxygen-free stranded Copper wire that costs me about 50 cents a foot at Signal Electronics in Torrance. It works as well as the Zilch Miracle Cable, and I don't have to "f" around with separating and joining the ends.

There is a kind of elegance to Zilch's wire, though, and I do use it on a secondary system.

As I've written elsewhere, I could spend less, as I've got a 1000 ft. roll of 16 Ga that I use for a lot of my systems. However, with the main Performance Series, it's a combo of need and desire. I need high quality, supple wire. I desire wire that looks like it's special, so people will go, "Wow! Look at that wire!" It's kind of like alloy wheels on my car; I don't really need them for the car to perform at its peak, but they sure do look cool. :drive:

If I'm not going to be a cheap bastard on my car, I'm certainly not going to buy cheap-looking wire for my surround system, which cost a lot more than the car.

[MJC]

I did an experiment last winter, I got a small roll(30') of Monster XP, not their most expensive, as the BS was that the magnetic flux tube improved sound. It made the highs sound harsh.
Then I got some cl rated wire(60') from Blue Jeans cable, for a lot less per foot. That wire is better than any other I've ever tried and I had enough to do the LCR in the HT and a stereo pair in another room.
So more expensive doesn't = better.

[SEAWOLF97]

I just got home from Asia where, among other things, I bought a couple of dozen gold plated banana plugs. Yesterday was the big swap out/install. My speakers have bananas for the internal wire to driver connection. Did all the binding post connections and the amps connections...

result ? I have a standard volume setting for very early morning listening. The volume was noticeably louder. I THINK the highs are a little sharper and detailed ( I say THINK , as this is rather subjective )...I did turn the vol down and decreased the treb slightly to get back to old config.

Thinking the connectors make as much difference as the wire. :blink:

[scott fitlin]

Connectors can become oxidized over time, and oxidation causes resistance to rise, this can be partially what you are hearing too!

I guess if you cleaned the old connectors and then A/Bed them against the new gold plated connectors, and see what differences you hear then?

[Thom]

I always thought leaving the AC plugs on would allow you to connect them direct to the source, i.e., the power grid. :shock:

It does, and the results can be impressive. They will generally impress you not to leave the AC plugs on when you wire your new speakers.

[JSF13]

Interesting article by Roger Russell of McIntosh.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[SEAWOLF97]

Interesting article by Roger Russell of McIntosh.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Fascinating articles that confirm much of what I've always thought. Thanx.

[spwal]

yes. ive read that before. it is a good read. still doesnt address the fact that high quality connections materials, copper, etc cost more, and you pay a huge markup for craftsmanship. All these things add up to a "better" cable.

I had HUGE improvements when i overspent on a set of MAC Palladiums (pure palladium interconnects). The difference was very obvious to me, and I was using more expensive cables retail pricewise before.

I think ZMC is sweet hookup wire. Love the stuff.

[Titanium Dome]

Interesting article by Roger Russell of McIntosh.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

It's sweet to see some of my old Home Depot wire pictured there. In that case, I think the sheathing sure made a difference. Even though it sounded the same as when new, the fact that it was green and the sheathing got super stiff was enough to get it out of the system.

I did see a gradual impedance rise as it "aged." However, it was nowhere near being too high when I yanked it out for better looking wires.

I still use it sometimes on tertiary systems when I've got nothing else available. I don't throw much away. :dont-know

[jbl4ever]

Hers is another place for good wire. I use the 12 and 10 ga. 10 for outside
long runs. 100ft
http://www.knukonceptz.com/

[spwal]

Hers is another place for good wire. I use the 12 and 10 ga. 10 for outside
long runs. 100ft
http://www.knukonceptz.com/


Great link! That looks great -- not from a marketing standpoint, but from a quality/guage standpoint. gonna have to see what other goodies they have.

thanks

spwal

[SEAWOLF97]

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/speaker-cables/7250-speaker-cables-turn-you-into-a-dancin-fool-302478.php

[Guido]

Two AWG14 Teflon/Silver Wire spiral wound by hand. Banana connectors on both sides. Bingo!

app. 15 Euro for 3 meter. I know nothing better.

[SEAWOLF97]

Taken from Amazon website:

Product Description
Never Use Bare Speaker Wire Without Connectors, Speaker wire is made from copper wire that can corrode very quickly, rapidly deteriorating the performance of your cables and the overall performance of your system. To avoid this, always terminate your speaker wire with connectors. The kind of connector you need varies with the kinds of connectors on the back of your amp/receiver and your speakers. Monster's QuickLock connector system is the fastest, easiest way to install the right connector to your speaker cable for maximum performance and reliability.

Boy, ain't that the truth !!...sometimes when I get bored, I sit and watch how fast copper wire corrodes..:( Its like ....wow !!!

[Ducatista47]

I have seen this recommendation several times. I use systems that are 98 to 100 dB/watt/1m, so I am leaning toward giving it a try. This is the best explanation I could find on short notice:

[Steve Schell]
Here we go with another cable discussion... wheee! For a long time now, I have been using 26 gauge copper magnet wire for speaker cable. It is extremely light and thin, and I attach it to the ceiling with bits of clear transparent tape. Yes, I realize this sounds crazy, but I am running fully horn loaded 105dB+ sensitive speakers, so current capacity is not really an issue. This wire imparts great clarity and naturalness to the system compared to others I have tried, especially thick, complex audiophile cables.

I'd steer clear of the heavy stranded, clear jacket "monster" type cables, from whatever source. In my past experience, this stuff rapidly becomes sticky, the jacket yellows, and the copper strands turn green. For the long runs required in your installation, simple two conductor solid (not stranded) Romex type house wiring in 12 or 14 gauge may work as well as anything, and the cost is reasonable.I kept the last part in the quote to back up some things mentioned earlier in this thread. Here is another great reply by Steve about what wire can do:http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=187204&postcount=3

I would appreciate any elaboration anyone could supply about using thin wire for transducers drawing little current.

I am the lone ranger around my audio circle about expensive cable and power cords. Either I am deaf or my friends are hearing things that are not there. (Either is possible!) I believe in twisted pair, or even better braided three conductor (like Kimber) for low level signal patch cords. But as to the purity of copper, well... One of the effects of some impurities in copper can be increased conductivity. That would be a good thing. ;)

Clark in Peoria

[johnaec]

Either I am deaf or my friends are hearing things that are not there.A well respected guy at a pro-sound site that I hang out recently said something very sensible, (IMHO), talking about supposed listening differences between various electronics:

"I'm with the pocket protector crowd in thinking if a mere human can hear something, it can easily be measured with the proper test. So the work involved is identifying what test."

John

[JBL 4645]

I remember seeing heavy duty electrical cable at the Warner Village cinema at Bristol’s 12 screen multiplex when I worked there during 1998. Now then it’s not as costly as some loudspeaker cable where there changing preposterous figures for 1m! Yeah I would go spare if someone ripped me off, what are they called Snake oil? Sounds like something from Escape from New York “call me snake.”:D

At the moment I’m using “Gale SYMPHONY 100” at 0.69p a metre.:)
http://www.richersounds.com/common/productpictures/303773.jpg

http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=GALE-SYMPHONY-100 (http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=GALE-SYMPHONY-100)

[LowPhreak]

i got realy tired by the continues discussion on loudspeaker cables.

...

So do I. But I'd say there is something to it - different cables that is - because I have heard improvements between cables, but they don't need to be expensive. I don't think one can reliably predict what cable will sound very good between which amp and speakers; it's a hit or miss thing at best.


what kind of cable do you guys use.

XLO Ultra 6 (http://xloelectric.com/programs/productCategory.php?category=3&productCode=Ultra%206&pictureSize=2) to 4412's. Seems that these speakers like this cable over others I've used.

[Domino]

Belden 5T00UP 10ga speaker cable. Great stuff. Available form Blue Jeans Cable.

[louped garouv]

i was using some home depot two conductor sheilded wire until i came across a local installer that was liquidating their inventory...

now i am using mostly west penn....

[3dbdown]

Didn't Drew Daniels say that 10AWG stranded SO cord was all one needed?? I've been doing that for about 30 plus years now, even in the tiny JBL binding posts on my various JBL's, ( using soldered pins) and I'm not convinced anything will much improve the sound......I think he also mentioned using computer ribbon cable, and just stripping and twisting together the requisite number of conductors to get the desired AWG for your length of run. By the way, I recently wired in the left channel of my system with monster cable, and the right side with the exact same gauge of SO cord, and, listening in mono, and reversing channels (both beautiful functions of some of my older amps) I couldn't detect any differences.......All sounds good to me. By the way, I didn't buy the monster cable....just had it lying around from the demo of an old restaurant construction site.

Am I missing something ?? :barf:

JBL #12

[LowPhreak]

... By the way, I recently wired in the left channel of my system with monster cable, and the right side with the exact same gauge of SO cord, and, listening in mono, and reversing channels (both beautiful functions of some of my older amps) I couldn't detect any differences........

You might hear differences between other cables. Comparing just 2 sets is not definitive.

[BMWCCA]

I couldn't detect any differences.......
I'm gonna side with the JBL guy on this one. New hardware-store "speaker" zip-cord it is for me, using tinned tips in Pomona plugs at both ends (Crown amps).

[Valentin]

There is a chapter in Philp newells book Loudspeakers for recording and sound reproduction about cable effects and configurations

cable do have different electrical characteristics capacitance inductance impedance etc.

there are some some changes that are provable and repeatable but dose are totally system related (reaction with type of speaker and amplifire and frequency) and if one cable works here it does not mean it will work everywhere.

It also state that the differences are so very small and system dependent that are really difficult too distinguish.

The sorter the length the better under 2 meters is impossible to distinguish between one configuration and another

so keep your cables as short a s possible.

I used too own audiophile cables today i use Canare 4s8 13gauge cable and sold all my quasi hifi stuff.

good quality nice price

[3dbdown]

LowPhreak.....

I'm not denying that I might hear differences among other cables...Not just 2 sets....What I am saying is that I don't think I'm going to hear anything BETTER. Gauge is gauge, capacitance is capacitance, and AC is AC.....So once the cables exceed the capabilities of all other wiring in the chain feeding them, at power amp levels, end of story as far as I have been able to tell.

For what it's worth, I have, through the years, upgraded my cabling as respects pre-amp and Line level signals into the signal chain and power amp sections. I cannot argue that there were differences and improvements to be made there, and I have made them, and heard those improvements. Not for tons of money, mind you. Just judicious comparison both in the studio and at home. Personally, I now usually make my own signal chain cables, to great satisfaction.

But once I'm out the back door, so to speak, I'm just not convinced that anything mysterious or esoteric makes a noticable difference in what I hear. Maybe all my other equipment is just GOOD to start with......Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...Who knows??

But I do know what sounds good to me. And even if my hearing has degraded due to old age and 3 years in no-man's-land on the flight deck of the USS Saratoga, it certainly still performs between 10 and 12 Khz.

JBL #12

[3dbdown]

To the Forum....

Some final thoughts....

I just spent this week rebuilding the networks in my L65's, my 4430's, and my Alpha's. Nothing fancy...I just put new Solens in everything, and dumped the bypass caps wherever encountered.

The difference in the L65's was stunning. The difference in the 4430's was breathtaking. Although I was expecting an obvious improvement in the mids and highs, I was totally unprepared for the huge difference in the woofer circuit of the 4430's. I wish you could all come hear my system, and leave the RTA's at home! It's nothing super fantastic compared to what many have in terms of components, but God it sounds great!

I did all 6 cabinets for a total cost of $150 and about 6 hours of quality time. And I noticed the improvement instantly. No comparison or double blind needed, thank you.

Now, I was happy with the sound before I did this. I am excstatic about the sound now. And I will probably be doubly impressed if I decide to charge couple the 4430's and build new LX30 CLS networks for the Jubals, for probably another $200.

I'm still using #10AWG twisted pair speaker cables with all my runs being less than 10 feet long.

So, my point is this: Even if I had $25,000, or $30,000, or even $50,000 to spend, it damn sure wouldn't be on speaker cables.......It would be spent on a wall of Everests, or 250ti's, or both, coupled with an ample supply of Macs, Crowns, Alephs, or in my case QSC's....you all know how I love them !!!

But......At the end of the day, all those speakers would still be connected with #10AWG twisted pair.......

Having said that, I will respectfully bow out of the Great Speaker Cable Debate.

JBL #12

[LowPhreak]

^^ I guess we're in general agreement then, since as I said, I do hear improvements in cabling but I wouldn't advocate expensive cables. Of course, what determines "expensive" is subjective, but in my book a few hundred $$ MSRP is sufficient to get high quality materials & design.

Spending $25k+ on cables, or remotely near that, is either hubris or stupidity IMO.

[SEAWOLF97]

mite as well upgrade power cord too....;)
6 footer ON SALE for only $1.4K

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Guys,

Thought I'd toss in my two cents in this thread. I used to use nothing but 18 guage lamp cord for all speaker wire. Then, back in 1983, I worked in a stereo store in Minneapolis, and decided to buy some Monster Cable, as I got it at a massive discount. The night that I hooked it up, Sweet Bride asked me, "What did you do to the stereo? It sounds better". And, in truth, it sounded better to me, too. We both noticed an open sound that was missing when we used lamp cord. Cymbals, and other such things, had a much more natural decay, and I thought that the speakers sounded much better than before. I have no idea is 10 guage stranded cable would sound the same, but I'd guess that it would be very similar, if not identical. I soldered gold pins on the ends of all my Monster Cable, and that stuff has served for our satellites and subwoofer, and served well, since 1983. In the intervening years, I've seen all kinds of "wonder cables" come and go. But, we figure, why fix what ain't broke? Just my thoughts and experiences, and worth exactly what you paid to read them! ;):) Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[robertbartsch]

...in the 60's the electrical code was changed in Florida allowing aluminum wire for 120 volt house current systems. Twenty years later they found out that alumium wire casues house fires!

Anyway, I assume aluminum wire has an advantage over copper in that it has less resistence; right?

Has anyone tried using alumnium wire for speakers?

[3dbdown]

Aluminum wire actually has greater resistance than copper wire. But it's a lot cheaper, and that's why people use it in construction. Unfortunately, it also expands and contracts at a much greater rate than copper. This results in the loosening of connections, and consequently creates heat at those connections. Additionally, it galls and corrodes quite badly, causing more loosening and more heat at the connections.

Since circuit breakers respond to current flow rather than temperature, it is quite possible, and indeed quite frequent, that poorly maintained connections will allow aluminum wire to heat up to the point where it will catch fire, and it most assuredly can burn your house down. And the breaker will not protect your property.

BTW, the order of best conductivity is : Silver, Copper, Aluminum, Iron, and Lead. Notice that Gold is not included....Gold is used on connections primarily for corrosion protection, and NOT for superior conductivity.

[Valentin]

Electrical Conductivity (S·m-1)
Silver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver)63.01 × 106 Highest electrical conductivity of any metal

Copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper)59.6 × 106

Annealed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29) Copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper)58.0 × 106 Referred to as 100% IACS or International Annealed Copper Standard. The unit for expressing the conductivity of nonmagnetic materials by testing using the eddy-current method. Generally used for temper and alloy verification of Aluminium.

Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold)45.2 × 106 Gold is commonly used in electrical contacts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_contact)

Aluminium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium)37.8 × 106

source wikipedia

[jblsound]

I just spent this week rebuilding the networks in my L65's, my 4430's, and my Alpha's. Nothing fancy...I just put new Solens in everything, and dumped the bypass caps wherever encountered.

The difference in the L65's was stunning. The difference in the 4430's was breathtaking. Although I was expecting an obvious improvement in the mids and highs, I was totally unprepared for the huge difference in the woofer circuit of the 4430's. I wish you could all come hear my system, and leave the RTA's at home! It's nothing super fantastic compared to what many have in terms of components, but God it sounds great!

Well if you think using Solen caps are an improvement, you should hear the difference using Solens in a Charged-Coupled xo. I did a pair of L212s, I used 3 cards for each speaker (one for each driver) The cost was about $150/ea speaker, Got to use twice the caps @ twice the size, compared to the original xo.


So, my point is this: Even if I had $25,000, or $30,000, or even $50,000 to spend, it damn sure wouldn't be on speaker cables.......It would be spent on a wall of Everests, or 250ti's, or both, coupled with an ample supply of Macs, Crowns, Alephs, or in my case QSC's....you all know how I love them !!!
I'm with you on that one. I use 12ga from BJC, I forget how much /ft, but not much. I starting buying it after I'd bought a 30ft roll of Monster XP in RS, as I was setting up another sytem and was out of wire.

That XP has a Magnetic Flux Tube running down the center, suppose to improve the highs, ya right! It made the highs sound harsh and brittle. So I got online and ordered the BJC and have been using it ever since.

[Steve Schell]

Thanks to Clark in Peoria for quoting me back on page two. I missed this thread back then.

I'm still using the 26 gauge magnet wire, only now I'm twisting it in a drill and putting it in a woven jacket so that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb when we exhibit our horn speakers at trade shows.

I tend to look at it this way... when using a tube amplifier, the output transformer secondary contains many yards of fine wire. Then the signal travels through a few feet of speaker cable, where it makes its way to the voice coil(s), which are made from several yards of very fine wire. Is it really necessary or desirable for the middle (and possibly shortest) link in this chain to have 20 or 100 or 500 times the cross sectional area of the other two links? What if one had lengths of copper rod three feet in diameter for speaker cables? I understand the argument about lower resistive losses, but at what point to those poor electrons become misdirected and confused?

Also, if fine gauge magnet wire was the best you could have (though I'm not saying it is), who would tell you? Certainly not the people who sell speaker cables! With careful shopping it can be had for $10 per mile or less, and there's not much profit in selling 12' cables at that rate.

Years ago I lived in a single wide mobile home (okay, trailer) that was built during the period when the code allowed the use of aluminum wire. Every screw in every outlet was loose by at least a half turn, and some connections looked a bit scorched. Dangerous!

[Mr. Widget]

I'm still using the 26 gauge magnet wire... Probably nothing wrong with that in short runs... for a time CAT5e was the rage and it is 24 ga.



I understand the argument about lower resistive losses, but at what point to those poor electrons become misdirected and confused? Now this is a joke right?


Widget

[Doctor_Electron]

After trying / using all manner of cable, my preference is #12 or #14 NMB, copper ("Romex"). I remove the bare ground conductor.
My 4310 & 4410 pairs are in nearfield setups with a Sansui AU-7700 integrated amp on one set and a Sansui 3300 receiver on the other. The electronics are situated between each pair, and the cables do not exceed 4' in length each. This certainly must help minimize any [possible?] cable deficiencies.
But even if they were a lot longer I would use the same cable.
BTW, I have spent MANY hours evaluating speaker cables, and [ I think ] what I use sounds best. Therefore it does, [ I think ]!
:D

[Doctor_Electron]

QUOTE: "That XP has a Magnetic Flux Tube running down the center, suppose to improve the highs, ya right!"

Flux That!

I've always wanted to up-convert the audio signal to the visible light spectrum and transmit it via laser, in an attempt to make the soundstage "more coherent":D

This way, I could also use magic crystals to fine tune the results. :D :D

I've also heard that rubbing your speaker cables with snake oil will help improve
the sound. :D :D :D

[hjames]

Interesting - someone sent me the link on this thread - I made up some 18 gauge magnet wire for some tests I'll be doing shortly. cut 4 25' length off a 100' spool,
chucked it in the B& D cordless drill, then spun them down ... $8 for a 100' spool via Amazon ... certainly worth the text.

Used the fluke to confirm there are no shorts and to tone out the matching (sharpie marked) Neg lines in each pair.
'cause Polarity Lines Matter.

Got to scrape the enamel off the ends & maybe get a chance to test after work tomorrow or over the weekend.

68662686636866468665



Thanks to Clark in Peoria for quoting me back on page two. I missed this thread back then.

I'm still using the 26 gauge magnet wire, only now I'm twisting it in a drill and putting it in a woven jacket so that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb when we exhibit our horn speakers at trade shows.

I tend to look at it this way... when using a tube amplifier, the output transformer secondary contains many yards of fine wire. Then the signal travels through a few feet of speaker cable, where it makes its way to the voice coil(s), which are made from several yards of very fine wire. Is it really necessary or desirable for the middle (and possibly shortest) link in this chain to have 20 or 100 or 500 times the cross sectional area of the other two links? What if one had lengths of copper rod three feet in diameter for speaker cables? I understand the argument about lower resistive losses, but at what point to those poor electrons become misdirected and confused?

Also, if fine gauge magnet wire was the best you could have (though I'm not saying it is), who would tell you? Certainly not the people who sell speaker cables! With careful shopping it can be had for $10 per mile or less, and there's not much profit in selling 12' cables at that rate.

Years ago I lived in a single wide mobile home (okay, trailer) that was built during the period when the code allowed the use of aluminum wire. Every screw in every outlet was loose by at least a half turn, and some connections looked a bit scorched. Dangerous!

[SEAWOLF97]

Back in '72 when I had a mail order Pioneer system from PACEX , but DIDN't have 2 nickles to rub together,
speaker cable was low on my priority list.

I did locate some 4 wire (solid) telephone cable. In desperation I wired 2 to 1 for the L and same for the right. This stuff is pretty thin (28g ?) , but solid. don't know what the effective gauge was. but it sounded very good.

wouldn't hesitate to do it again. ( I think)

[Steve Schell]

It is fun to see this thread crop up again. I am still using twisted 26 gauge magnet wire with great results. The old attitude was to match impedances rather than seek MONSTER low impedance, high damping factor amps to drive loudspeakers. A single ended triode amp combined with a couple ohms of cable resistance sounds great with strong magnet speakers.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think the output impedance of a SE or even a PP valve amp makes the drc of the cable moot.

What matters (hurts the signal at the speaker end) is the inductance and capacitance of the speak cable.

That can impact audibly on the frequency response amplitude of the signal.

We know in the case of a RIAA phone pre amp that 0.5 db -+ variation is quite audible in the context of 20~20,000 hertz so it is not surprising if the impact of the former is audible.

In the case of SS amps they generally have a low output impeciance at low frequencies only and this is a function of feedback around the output stage and global feedback with the input.

Depending on design the inductance and capacitance of the cable enters the feedback loop of the amp and because the feedback is frequency dependant it can impact on the transient behaviour of the amp.

If you are in a position to modify the feedback of a SS amp the impact can be audible. (This is in part why not all Ss amp have the same sonic signature).

The best cable is therefore a short stout cable.

One could therefore deduce that a python size cable from a snake oil merchant (bigger is better) with excessive inductance and capacitance is exactly the wrong thing to use.

But because the subjective nature of listening is heavily influenced by visual imagery (after Floyd) and we see it so must sound different, err better. The badly designed cable is in fact technically a negative impact.

But how does the native audiophile know when a cable is impacting from the visual influence or for technical reasons?

The don't and this is how the sharks in the audiophile cable business stay in business.

I have no doubt the high end audiophile fraternity would hate this post but fortunately as a luxury goods industry is always experienced zero growth compared to other luxury goods industries.

[Mr. Widget]

...and how the sharks in the audiophile cable business stay in business.They are not just staying in business but doing disturbingly well. As far as gullible consumers go, I guess snake oil has been around as long as there have been snakes.


Widget

[Wagner]

I am NOT a fan of "6 Moons" at all, BUT I did try a set of these a while back (there are many stories about this DIY project on the internet)

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html)
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=80433
http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Cable/White-Lightning/Yardmaster/cables/13/136694.html

I needed some fairly long runs and wasn't going to spend a fortune so I gave this a try (it was the weekend, so no Mogami order was possible)
Results? They make for a very very good "sounding" speaker wire
When I put them in my system (a pair of L55s I had just restored for a client at the time) things did sound much better than whatever it was I had in there at the time

Thinking it might just be a new caps and foam anomaly I tried them again and again with numerous other combos
They ARE a good speaker cable for what ever the reason (other folks could hear it too, including the guy buying the L55s) He was also auditioning a pair of L112s, which he also bought, so no, he wasn't hearing impaired

Can't find it now, but it appears that Wal-Mart or "Yard Master" or whoever sourced this wire from various suppliers; the one you want are the ones labelled "made in china"
I think a bunch of this cheap wire is coming out of the Philippines now and the DIY crowd say it just ain't the same

Either way, I bought 80' of wire for $14 dollars and change and it sounds great (pretty flexible and easy to terminate too)

[Steve Schell]

Hey Ian, how ya doin? In my early days of using fine magnet wire as speaker cable, I attached the #26 to the ceiling with transparent tape, keeping the parallel runs an inch or so apart. It is actually a hip way to do dress cables as they are not underfoot. This would probably be considerably lower in both inductance and capacitance than the tightly twisted runs I have used in recent years. Never did make a direct comparison sonically, but maybe I should!

At trade shows we eventually learned to put our speaker wires in black woven nylon jacketing to achieve the "audiophile approved" look. This way listeners could focus on the sound and not the highly unconventional wire.

I used to joke online that with careful shopping an audiophile could keep his cable costs under $5 per mile. Guess copper prices are a bit higher now but still... if thin copper were the best who would tell you? Certainly not the cable sellers!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Steve,

I previously made up some CAT 9 with individual twisted insulated conductors like a poor mans Kimber cable.

I also convinced myself that the steel bolt terminations of all of JBL crossovers were worthy of replacing with gold plated binding posts.

Bi wired from the amp to the mid horn section of my dig 4345s l convinced myself is was worthwhile.

Another idea us to pull the inner core out of a coaxial cable or wrap strands around a non conducting core.

[Wagner]

I also convinced myself that the steel bolt terminations of all of JBL crossovers were worthy of replacing with gold plated binding posts.

Copper is a better conductor than any of them with the exception of silver, and not unlike silver, more subject to corrosion (versus gold)

Gold plated conductors and terminals of unknown provenance is one of the biggest scams going, especially with product coming out of third world asian factories (and sometimes I even doubt the "gold" plating is actually gold to begin with)

For the best electrical connections that are practically possible (and assuming routine maintenance and treatment is part of your equipment maintenance routine) pure copper is the way to go
Silver has the highest electrical conductivity of all metals. In fact, silver defines conductivity - all other metals are compared against it. On a scale of 0 to 100, silver ranks 100, with copper at 97 and gold at 76.

http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/

International Annealed Copper Standard, a unit of electrical conductivity for metals and alloys relative to a standard annealed copper conductor; an IACS value of 100% refers to a conductivity of 5.80 × 107 siemens per meter (58.0 MS/m) at 20 °C.

Clean copper connections are superior to gold, the operative word here being CLEAN. Gold plating of connectors is hype and a way for manufacturer's to deal with poor end user maintenance and to give reason to jack up the price of workaday wires.

The conductivity of any given cable is only as good as the martial UNDERNEATH the termination's plating; in other words you can gold plat shit metals and alloys and that's all you still have: shit

[BMWCCA]

Here's a shot of my 6Moons White Lightning cables terminated in my favorite Neutrik dual-bananas:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

[Odd]

Here's a shot of my 6Moons White Lightning cables terminated in my favorite Neutrik dual-bananas:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

Do not use this in Europe, they fit perfectly in 230v wall outlet.

[BMWCCA]

Do not use this in Europe, they fit perfectly in 230v wall outlet.
:shocking: Thanks for the warning. I have no intention of doing so!
I'm an old guy from the Midwest of the USA. I love my Pomona plugs!
From Crown amplifier output to JBL speaker inputs, they work perfectly.

[Allanvh5150]

Copper is a better conductor than any of them with the exception of silver, and not unlike silver, more subject to corrosion (versus gold)

Gold plated conductors and terminals of unknown provenance is one of the biggest scams going, especially with product coming out of third world asian factories (and sometimes I even doubt the "gold" plating is actually gold to begin with)

For the best electrical connections that are practically possible (and assuming routine maintenance and treatment is part of your equipment maintenance routine) pure copper is the way to go
Silver has the highest electrical conductivity of all metals. In fact, silver defines conductivity - all other metals are compared against it. On a scale of 0 to 100, silver ranks 100, with copper at 97 and gold at 76.

http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/

International Annealed Copper Standard, a unit of electrical conductivity for metals and alloys relative to a standard annealed copper conductor; an IACS value of 100% refers to a conductivity of 5.80 × 107 siemens per meter (58.0 MS/m) at 20 °C.

Clean copper connections are superior to gold, the operative word here being CLEAN. Gold plating of connectors is hype and a way for manufacturer's to deal with poor end user maintenance and to give reason to jack up the price of workaday wires.

The conductivity of any given cable is only as good as the martial UNDERNEATH the termination's plating; in other words you can gold plat shit metals and alloys and that's all you still have: shit

Although copper is regarded as a good conductor, its main issue is that it instantly starts to oxidise. Gold on the other hand in generally impervious to most things and when used as a plating adds very little resistivity to the connector because it is so thin. Gold plating is also very cheap.

Allan.

[Odd]

:shocking: Thanks for the warning. I have no intention of doing so!
I'm an old guy from the Midwest of the USA. I love my Pomona plugs!
From Crown amplifier output to JBL speaker inputs, they work perfectly.



:)

[hjames]

I hooked the 18 gauge DIY twisted pair Magnet wires up yesterday. No time for a formal A/B -
but I turned the amp on and wound up running it a couple hours before I had a chance to site and listen.

I played some music via Wifi/iTunes/DDE3 DAC - Melody Gardot (new CD) and Eva Cassidy ---
nice but I didn't seem to hear any difference ... nothing I could put my finger on.

Got an email from Rusty overnight - he expected I'd hear some low end changes ...
hmm, I had noticed the system did seem a bit thumpier, fingers on fretboards and such -
not quite turntable rumble but somewhere in that range - but I hadn't listened to those tracks in a while -
and frankly, Gardot's Preacherman is pretty darned dramatic recording ...

Anyway, getting sunny and I have busy day (pond & yardwork!) and not sure when I'll get a chance to listen more thoroughly
the darned amp is high on a cabinet and not the easiest thing to quick/switch wires for a formal A/B -
maybe tomorrow after church?

Oh - the VR-4s consist of a bass cabinet and an upper cabinet, stacked and docked, and are biwired.
The previous owner included some kind of audiophile biwire in the sale - thats the heavier cable in that image.

68704 6870568706

[1audiohack]

I use graphite infused pasta. The joinery is a real bitch but it's worth it. I use foil wrapped Hostess (thank God they are still in business!)DingDongs as "cable" elevators. The foil is conductive but the occasional Fruit Loop threaded on the conductors makes for a good insulator. You can experiment with how many if any conductors contact the foil and even which ones (+ or -) for variable capacitance and you can use different colors to taylor the sound without using something as acoustically crass as an equalizer.

I know this will make me an outcast but I really use this stuff called "speaker wire". It's easy to find and use and is available nearly everywhere. Who knew? ;)

Barry.

[Wagner]

Although copper is regarded as a good conductor, its main issue is that it instantly starts to oxidise. Gold on the other hand in generally impervious to most things and when used as a plating adds very little resistivity to the connector because it is so thin. Gold plating is also very cheap.

Allan.
It's not the gold per se I have any complaints with, it's the lipstick on a pig part that I do (have a problem with)
And the fact that copper is still the better conductor
Properly treated and maintained pure copper (and plated with other metals) connections will work as well if not better than any chinese wire with a molecule or two (if it is in fact gold to begin with) of gold paint stuck on simply to justify a ridiculous price and convey some sort of sense of superior quality

Cardas doesn't use it the last time I looked (just an example; I'm no Cardas fan boy but they do make some damn expansive "hi-end" cable) And how many truly "High end, high performance" cartridge tags are made using gold? Not very many

Bottom line? The wire is only as good as the purity of the copper used, not the lipstick they put on the connectors

That's what Caig and other contact cleaners/enhancers are for (and regular system maintenance)

Gold is fine for things like computer connections that will seldom see the light of day, but for speaker wires? It's a waste of money and a marketing gimmick

Yes, it is superior with regards to oxidation resistance, NO ARGUMENT THERE, but for those of you who think that gold plated termination doesn't need the same maintenance that any other types do (as in fit it and forget it) I've got news for you, you're mistaken

[hjames]

Over the weekend I had a chance to drop the wires in place and do some listening ...
Silly me, 25 foot wires twisted into pairs are not 25' long after twisting - call it my D'oh moment ...
so I had to move the right side speaker a little closer to get it connected.

Anyway - I swapped my quality zipcord with banana cables out for the twisted pair 18 gauge single conductor magnet wire.
No connectors, I just scraped the ends of the wire, bent them into a J shape and tightened the 5 way speaker connectors
down on the bare copper lead.

I didn't actually know what I was supposed to hear.
I presumed the sound would be more open and airy (like I got when swapping in the mapleshade foil interconnects)
- and I did not hear that. Talked to Rusty and he asked if I heard anything at the low end. Hadn't expect it there!
I did more listening - maybe there is a tightening or crispness in the low end. Subtle.
Emma did not like the change - her ears are better than mine (too many smokey nightclubs for me!)

Rusty commented that since the speakers were made to biwire, instead of using the audiophile jumper between the two cabs in each stack, I ought to try running a twisted pair directly from the amp to each cabinet.
I did order some more magnet wire so I could make up longer leads and try that ($30 for 3 100' spools).

Now honestly, I fiddle with my system quite a bit. Move cabinets around, try different gear, etc.
Those 18 gauge solid wires are stiff and seem somewhat fragile to me.
The speakers are out in the room to a degree - wires can be bumped and such.
I have a vision of a wire snapping, or popping loose and shorting out my tube amp,
and that is not a feeling of confidence.

Late Sunday evening, I unhooked the twisted pair and went back to my zip cord with connectors.

I still have the mapleshade foil type interconnects between the DAC and the preamp.
They make an audible difference, and is not crazy-pricey ($150/pair) and I only need 1 pair -
tho I'd test/buy another pair for the turntable IF I played vinyl more often.

[Wagner]

Over the weekend I had a chance to drop the wires in place and do some listening ...
Silly me, 25 foot wires twisted into pairs are not 25' long after twisting - call it my D'oh moment ...
so I had to move the right side speaker a little closer to get it connected.

Anyway - I swapped my quality zipcord with banana cables out for the twisted pair 18 gauge single conductor magnet wire.
No connectors, I just scraped the ends of the wire, bent them into a J shape and tightened the 5 way speaker connectors
down on the bare copper lead.

I didn't actually know what I was supposed to hear.
I presumed the sound would be more open and airy (like I got when swapping in the mapleshade foil interconnects)
- and I did not hear that. Talked to Rusty and he asked if I heard anything at the low end. Hadn't expect it there!
I did more listening - maybe there is a tightening or crispness in the low end. Subtle.
Emma did not like the change - her ears are better than mine (too many smokey nightclubs for me!)

Rusty commented that since the speakers were made to biwire, instead of using the audiophile jumper between the two cabs in each stack, I ought to try running a twisted pair directly from the amp to each cabinet.
I did order some more magnet wire so I could make up longer leads and try that ($30 for 3 100' spools).

Now honestly, I fiddle with my system quite a bit. Move cabinets around, try different gear, etc.
Those 18 gauge solid wires are stiff and seem somewhat fragile to me.
The speakers are out in the room to a degree - wires can be bumped and such.
I have a vision of a wire snapping, or popping loose and shorting out my tube amp,
and that is not a feeling of confidence.

Late Sunday evening, I unhooked the twisted pair and went back to my zip cord with connectors.

I still have the mapleshade foil type interconnects between the DAC and the preamp.
They make an audible difference, and is not crazy-pricey ($150/pair) and I only need 1 pair -
tho I'd test/buy another pair for the turntable IF I played vinyl more often.
For normal application type PHONO use (values requirements), the best you can do is the following; all readily avaliable off the shelf stuff with a total cost of less than $10 bucks) Abbey Road quality. There are a couple of good cables (BELDON, and a cable BELDON makes exclusively for Blue Jeans which is superb) that CLAIM a couple pF less lower capacitance per foot but the difference is extremely negligible and can easily be adjusted for with a few inches in length but; but the lowest rated of them can loose a lot of it once you hit it's dielectric with soldiering iron heat (very easy to do, it's a rather fragile foam type) It's how they get their "better" spec" Not very practical for hand assembled interconnects (in fact, they advise against hand soldering):
Page #5 Model # 2965 and a set of these http://www.redco.com/Rean-Neutrik-NYS373-Male-RCA-Plug.html can achieve a perfect ideal value in runs of 3 feet or less
I choose the REANS because after much study, the termination end can be accomplished, easily, with about an 1/8 of an inch if you know how to solder and they don't come much cheaper (and build quality is excellent)
Fits tight jack panels as well (closely spaced and vintage types)
Anything up to 4 feet will be fine unless you are a bat or a very)young dog; 3 feet or less and you will be good, if you can keep you leads at 2 feet or less you will be golden with the ideal 35pF total for HF performance (but again, anything up to 4 is great unless you're a bat)
I strongly suggest all PHONO signal work be done with the Mogami Model 2965. You won't regret it and your wallet will thank you. BEAUTIFULLY made too. and extremely flexible. They'll sell it to you already terminated if you like but that's sort of self-defeating wouldn't you think? (and I doubt it remains as economical that way either!)

[hjames]

In my system, the turntable is such a small part of my listening its not worth making changes there.
It works fine now as is ...

In the old days when I worked in broadcasting we used Belden 8451 cables for basic audio signals when wiring up consoles.
For home use, I had always used quality RCA cables in the past - good stuff I bought from Seawolf a few years back.

But I heard a significant improvement with the mapleshade wires between my DAC and preamp - -
and since I've spent more on active electronics with less improvements, I figure that was $150 well spent.
Audible, significant change.
Your ears and your mileage may vary ...

But LOUDSPEAKER CABLE is the title of the thread - sorry for my drift ...






For normal application type PHONO use, the best you can do is the following using of these off the shelf parts, total cost, less than $10 bucks) Abbey Road quality. There are a couple of good cables (BELDON, and a cable BELDON makes exclusively for Blue Jeans which is superb) that CLAIM a couple pF less lower capacitance per foot but the difference is extremely negligible and can easily be adjusted for with a feew inches in length but loose a lot of it once you hit their dielectric with soldiering iron heat (very easy to do) It's how they get their "better" spec" Not very practical for hand assembled interconnects (in fact, they advise against hand soldering):
Page #5 Model # 2965 and a set of these http://www.redco.com/Rean-Neutrik-NYS373-Male-RCA-Plug.html can achieve a perfect ideal value in runs of 3 feet or less
I choose the REANS because after much study, the termination end can be accomplished, easily, with about an 1/8 of an inch if you know how to solder and they don't come much cheaper (and build quality is excellent)
Fits tight jack panels as well.
Anything up to 4 feet will be fine unless you are a bat or a very young dog; 3 feet or less and you will be good, if you can keep you leads at 2 feet or less you will be golden with the ideal 35pF total for HF performance (but again, anything up to 4 is great unless you're a bat)
I stronflely suggets all PHONO signal work be done with the Mogami Model 2965. You won't regret it.

[gasfan]

Okay, barring the obvious reasons differences might be heard, I think I may be able to shed some light on the not so obvious. I've mentioned this in another thread some time ago. My little experiment consisted of eliminating the speaker connectors and hard-wiring the cable to both the amp and speakers.

First of all, I used Magnat Superflow 10awg. This wire consisted of 630 strands per lead with a rubber insulator, so a total of 1260 per speaker. It hung like a silk rope. I also wired the speakers with it, a pair of KEF105/2. The skin effect crowd can rest assured that with this many strands, it's eliminated.

So once I had everything hooked/soldered up, the only remaining connection was to solder the 8' runs from the amps(monos), to the leads coming out the back of the KEFs. The experiment was to observe any improvement that might take place at the instant the two sides were soldered. So using a very large pair of channelock pliers, and after doing so with the - lead, I pushed the naked ends of the + side of both together and, while listening to music, bearing down on the channelocks as hard as I could, used an 80watt soldering iron to solder them. What I heard at that instant was astonishing. Very hard to describe. Almost like when a station is not quite coming in and you finally get it right on but without any snow? Just much more rich and complete.

I never heard any difference using that wire before that experiment. I've been a fan of hard wiring where practical ever since. I've heard improvements after removing quick-connects and soldering direct inside some amps.

[hjames]

Just an FYI - I have worked with microwave transmitters via Hughes AML and MDS system - typically 1.6 gHz and higher.
Skin Effect is a term used at MICROWAVE FREQUENCIES where the signal tends to travel
on the surface of the conductor. There is no point in using a copper ROD or BUSS since the signal only travels on the skin,
so they actually use copper PIPE as waveguide to conduct signal from the individual transmitter output to the summed junction point
and to the antenna transmission line.

Audio frequency is 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz -- there is NO skin effect at Audio Frequencies.

Microwave is 300,000,000 Hz to 300,000,000,000 Hz - radically different characteristics.

Wikipedia says: Microwaves are a form of electromagnetic radiation with frequencies between 300 MHz (100 cm) and 300 GHz (0.1 cm);
with wavelengths ranging from one meter to one millimeter;

I am not trying to flame anybody, honestly - I don't share that way.

6876668767

[gasfan]

Great. Another myth laid to rest.

[Wagner]

I've been a fan of hard wiring where practical ever since. I've heard improvements after removing quick-connects and soldering direct inside some amps.
NO connector is better than no (any) connector; old news

[gasfan]

Old news is good news..sometimes.

[hjames]

Wow - that sounds very cool. When I googled "Magnat Superflow" it seems a lot of people remember it fondly from the 70s
but apparently its no longer in production. I like the idea of removing connectors and soldering to flow the signal directly - a purists approach,
even if its not so practical.
Connectors always seem like that single point of failure - seeing a stack of adapters screwed together always brings a smile.




Okay, barring the obvious reasons differences might be heard, I think I may be able to shed some light on the not so obvious. I've mentioned this in another thread some time ago. My little experiment consisted of eliminating the speaker connectors and hard-wiring the cable to both the amp and speakers.

First of all, I used Magnat Superflow 10awg. This wire consisted of 630 strands per lead with a rubber insulator, so a total of 1260 per speaker. It hung like a silk rope. I also wired the speakers with it, a pair of KEF105/2. The skin effect crowd can rest assured that with this many strands, it's eliminated.

So once I had everything hooked/soldered up, the only remaining connection was to solder the 8' runs from the amps(monos), to the leads coming out the back of the KEFs. The experiment was to observe any improvement that might take place at the instant the two sides were soldered. So using a very large pair of channelock pliers, and after doing so with the - lead, I pushed the naked ends of the + side of both together and, while listening to music, bearing down on the channelocks as hard as I could, used an 80watt soldering iron to solder them. What I heard at that instant was astonishing. Very hard to describe. Almost like when a station is not quite coming in and you finally get it right on but without any snow? Just much more rich and complete.

I never heard any difference using that wire before that experiment. I've been a fan of hard wiring where practical ever since. I've heard improvements after removing quick-connects and soldering direct inside some amps.

[Mr. Widget]

I like the idea of removing connectors and soldering to flow the signal directly - a purists approach,
even if its not so practical.
Connectors always seem like that single point of failure - seeing a stack of adapters screwed together always brings a smile.I'm not endorsing this, but there is also a "school of thought" (aka audiophile craziness) where you don't want any solder in the signal path. And another where you only gently hand tighten connections as you don't want to over tighten a connection with a large wrench.


Widget

[Wagner]

I'm not endorsing this, but there is also a "school of thought" (aka audiophile craziness) where you don't want any solder in the signal path. And another where you only gently hand tighten connections as you don't want to over tighten a connection with a large wrench.


Widget
All comments to follow apply to Point to Point (and the Art of doing It RIGHT)
Including interconnect and speaker wire termination (excluding "cup" types)
Solder should never be used to "make" any connection, only to preserve it from thermal effects, shock and help keep it clean (but unfortunately it is, (just look at some of the half ass work being done today, gobs of the stuff used to fill gaps and voids rather than take the time and use the skill to make a proper connection), solder's purpose is ONLY only to ensure it's mechanical integrity (a connection between two pieces of metal) is maintained (in a perfect world)
Soldering is NOT the same as welding despite what some may think
Even strap to chassis ground connections you see so often on very old gear SHOULD HAVE been done with a threaded fastener and a star washer or at worse with a cold rivet, but a hot iron and a glob of 60/40 was just so much faster, and cheaper, even on the good stuff like Fisher and the like
If you work on enough vintage pieces you will see who knew how and who did not
(or at least didn't give a shit about anything but production numbers)
Probably the finest I have ever seen was that of Stromberg-Carsoln; you probably don't/didn't even need solder with some of their glory day pieces; but talk about a BITCH to UNsolder in order to effect repairs or service.
The consistency and shear beauty of their wire bends amazes me every time I work on one, and boy are they hard to unravel; they also hold solder like a bitch! They're almost like some sort of organic mechanical fastener (which I guess they technically are)
Their consumer stuff really was built as if it was going to see Military or space program service. I've uttered more than a few choice cuss words trying to remove just a simple resister from a tube socket on an S-C. And you could tell the workers were specifically trained/instructed/indoctrinated in what they wanted, the techniques run consistent with every piece of S-C gear I have ever worked on.

The unions should be made with skill and the properer bending of the metal/ a mechanical connection, NOT a lead glue connection
The solder only keeps things in place and long term conductivity (protection from the elements)
MOST people don't know how to solder properly; their work reflects it, looks like shit and invites cold and fractured joints with use and time "if a little is good then a LOT must be better......................not the case
That was during the point to point era; PC boards changed all of that and brought with it a plethora of new problems and issues to contend with (read: unreliability, difficult to locate and diagnose problems along with a host of others
Initially, all the boards were populated TOO HOT for PC work ('cause guys were still in the old mode/ways of thinking)
Nowadays, the floor man can control the temp of every iron on the floor (well, through the '70s anyway, now a F'ing computer does it all)
Aside from joint corrosion and oxidation (and vibration/thermal stress) a properly made Western Union etc or similar doesn't even need solder if it weren't for the effects of Mother Nature on metals
It's just not very piratical to assemble an amp or receiver with a hundred or more small parts that way
Again, solder is NOT a connection, rather an insurance policy and never was intended as such................the joint should be solid and tight before any solder is even applied if you're doing things right

Now TODAY, with SMD, IC designs and architecture, wave techniques and PC architecture Sorry State, THAT's another topic (and animal) Solder IS the connection or glue (but that wasn't my point)...........apples to oranges

[Alobar]

I don't know if this is the right thread and don't mean to hijack but I am getting ready to install 077's into my old L200's and am wondering what sort of speaker wire to use. I will be going from the baffleboard through the speaker to the back and making a small box on the back to house the cap and Lpad and install new binding posts where the 077's and the input to the LX16 will connect. As to the wire to the 077's, should I use some sort of a shielded wire? And if so what would I ground the shield to? Right now I was just planning on using speaker wire but this thread got me thinking about possible interference from those huge driver magnets.

[grumpy]

My suggestion would be to use normal hook up or speaker wire, tin the leads (or not)
and give it a few twists.

[Alobar]

My suggestion would be to use normal hook up or speaker wire, tin the leads (or not)
and give it a few twists.

Thanks Grumpy, that sounds easy enough..

[Wagner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk