Best MHF, HF, UHF JBL driver-horn combinations?

[diamondsouled]

What is the best JBL MH driver-horn combination in your esteemed opinions?

How about HF UHF driver-horn combination?

Thanks

Lar

[4313B]

476BE on the Everest II horn, or the H4338 (JBL 4338 system) or H9800 (JBL K2-S9800 system). The 435BE would be second choice. And you don't really need a UHF unless you have extraordinary hearing.

Other choices would be the compression driver and horn combinations in the Array Series, SK2-1000 and the K2-S5800.

[scott fitlin]

These days, I find myself attracted to JBL,s neo magnet dual 8in cone mids horn loaded, and their 2451 neo magnet 1.5in titanium diaphragm driver on a waveguide.

Very dynamic, very clean, can take some real power.

Works quite well with todays digital sources. IMHO.

I have heard that the 476Be on the Everest Horn is ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE! But, lets say one really wants to purchase them, they are over $3000 each for the drivers alone. It doesnt make them any less incredible, just more out of reach to most.

However, with todays digital sources, I really find myself liking fast, snappy, horn loaded cone midrange. On the proper waveguide, that 2451 is NO slouch either!

[Robh3606]

Hello Lar

What do you have in mind?? It would help as there are one hell of a lot of possible combinations. Some may work for you others won't. What have you heard that you like. I will give you a couple of combinations I have used.

A 2435 on a PTH1010 Waveguide with a 10" 2123 midrange

A 2425/2426 on a 2344 100x100 CD Horn with a 10" 2123/2122 midrange or a single 8" 2118 or a pair of 2118's for an MTM

The 10" 2122 midrange, 2307 Horn with a 2425/2426 Compression driver and 2405/077 Tweeter combination used in the 4344 using the new equivalent 4344 crossover developed by Giskard.

All of those combinations can sound damn nice once you take the time to set them up. None of them are really plug and play as with anything to get the best out of it you have to work at it. I think the best of the lot is a combination using the berylium 2435 but the others can work real well as your mains. I can listen to any one of them all day with no issues.

If you are having a problem with all the driver parts number look here to help you out.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/pro-comp.htm

There are also many current drivers to choose from.

Rob:)

[diamondsouled]

Switcherood to DIY

Thanks to all for the info so far.

Just wanting to get a feel for what is out there JBL wise for drivers and horns.

To tell the truth JBL was always a bit out my price range until recently; except for some 077s and 3105s I added onto my Altec Valencias way back in the last millenium (Some 2404s recently). Guess I want to graduate to a complete JBL system now that I can afford it, lol.

I supposed that 3000 dollars + for the 476BE drivers alone seems high but when you consider the cost of an Everest system at 30,000 each it doesn't seem so high anymore. A person with a good wood working shop could fabricate horns that would work as well as the ones used in the Everest and wood look better, at least to my eyes.

Going to have to do my homework it seems but at least I have somewhere to begin.

Where does JBL list the 476BE drivers? I've looked over both of their sites and couldn't seem to track them down.

Thanks

Lar

[4313B]

Where does JBL list the 476BE drivers? I've looked over both of their sites and couldn't seem to track them down.As soon as they show up on the Harman Japan website they are available. I know a pallet full of them left Northridge for Japan a few months ago. It appears that JBL is going to replace whole units as opposed to offering just the diaphragms if warranty repair is needed. I think some forum members are using the 2452, 2435, or 435BE in the interim.

I supposed that 3000 dollars + for the 476BE driversNo comment at this time. We'll see what Harman Japan lists them at.

[scott fitlin]

No comment at this time. We'll see what Harman Japan lists them at.Harman Japan! What use is that?

JBL targets Japan as THEIR primary high end market, so, even though the 476Be may eventually get listed on the Japanese website, it will still be hard to get here. And I really cant see the price coming down much either, Beryllium diaphragm + Alnico magnet = HIGH EXPENSE!



:)

[diamondsouled]

"It appears that JBL is going to replace whole units as opposed to offering just the diaphragms if warranty repair is needed"

I suppose there is a method in their madness ($$$$$) or it could just be more of the same throw away mentality that afflicts manufacture these days.

I've heard that old computers and computer parts are making up a surprisingly high percentage of our garbage stream already. Of course no one will be throwing out their blown 476BEs any time soon, they'll wait until someone comes out with a replacement pragm and then sell them on eBay for big $$$$, lol. I think you'd really have to go out of your way to blow one in the first place. The Everest system is rated at 500 watts max. correct? You'd have to really flub a hook up or something to fry a driver.

Lar

[scott fitlin]

I might tend to think that the reason JBL would replace/swap drivers if you blow a 476Be, is because Beryllium is a highly toxic substance. If you shatter the Be diaphragm, then there is Beryllium dust, and this is what you must avoid inhaling.

Its safer for them to send you a new driver, you send them yours, and THEY replace the diaphragm under proper conditions.

[diamondsouled]

"I might tend to think that the reason JBL would replace/swap drivers if you blow a 476Be, is because Beryllium is a highly toxic substance. If you shatter the Be diaphragm, then there is Beryllium dust, and this is what you must avoid inhaling.

Its safer for them to send you a new driver, you send them yours, and THEY replace the diaphragm under proper conditions."

That makes good sense. So there is the good possibility that there will be a core value for them.

Many chassis have cadmium plating on them which is another baddie. A lot of people sand, grind, and polish their chassis without knowing that there could be health issues.

Lar

[scott fitlin]

As I said, Be is a very toxic substance when manufacturing and when they shatter there is dust. The solid diaphragm is safe, but I would imagine the company doesnt want people handling a potentially dangerous item.

If you blew one, JBL could send you the new driver, and they take your driver, and repair it, and use that as the next replacement driver for the next person who blows one. The cores dont go bad.

In addition, since the Everest is JBL,s PREMIUM Statement Flagship speaker, I would also think that customers who spend that much money to own them get special service from JBL. Just like when you buy a Rolls Royce, the customer services are higher standard and more personalized then what you get when you buy a $30,000 Nissan.

[speakerdave]

. . . . Beryllium diaphragm + Alnico magnet = HIGH EXPENSE!

Isn't it neo?

[scott fitlin]

Isn't it neo?I think they used alnico in the 476Be.

[speakerdave]

I think they used alnico in the 476Be.

It's neodymium. The 1501Al woofer is Alnico.

David

[scott fitlin]

It's neodymium. The 1501Al woofer is Alnico.

DavidAre you sure? In one post, Greg Timbers once said that alnico was the best sounding magnet, and ferrite was lousy. This speaker system is JBL,s Flagship, and I think I remember him posting it was an alnico magnet and Be diaphragm. If Im wrong Ill stand corrected, but, I really think the compression driver uses alnico too.


Giskard would know for sure, lets ask him.

[scott fitlin]

Paging Giskard, we need you!

[speakerdave]

Giskard would know for sure, lets ask him.

Or you could look it up like I did.


David

[scott fitlin]

Ive been trying and cant find it. Where is it?

Like I said, if Im wrong, I stand corrected. But now Im curious.

[scott fitlin]

I found it. Im wrong, it is neo. I thought it was alnico, but only the woofers.

Dave, you are right, it is neodymium.

:D

[4313B]

The 476Be, 435Be and 045Be use neodymium.

*****

Double post. Delete mine if you want.

[scott fitlin]

Thank you, sir.

[speakerdave]

In case anyone is considering a purchase, here is the URL for the Owner's Manual:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/Owners%20Manual%20-%20Project%20Everest%20DD66000%20%20(English).pdf

Page 15 has a labeled drawing of the 476Be.

David

[4313B]

I might tend to think that the reason JBL would replace/swap drivers if you blow a 476Be, is because Beryllium is a highly toxic substance. If you shatter the Be diaphragm, then there is Beryllium dust, and this is what you must avoid inhaling.

Its safer for them to send you a new driver, you send them yours, and THEY replace the diaphragm under proper conditions.The TAD's shatter which is a source of amusement at JBL. The JBL's are foil and don't shatter.

[scott fitlin]

I didnt know that. I assumed that since you can shatter older diaphragms, as well as other brand diaphragms, these could too.

In any event, I would guess that would be a source of amusement about the TAD phragms, however, I have never come close to blowing a TAD driver. It would probably be ungodly loud for it to happen. I never had a problem with tweeters, comp drivers and 15in woofers, I rarely blew any.

As reliability goes, both TAD and JBL have worked well for me, but, I prefer the sound of JBL, so I use JBL compression drivers.

Still, I think its an extremely high level of service offered to Everest owners that in the event they do blow a 476, JBL swaps out the driver for a new one. That represents Premium Service and support.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would expect if you mean dropping a driver would shatter the diaphragm that that sort of force would mess up the structure anyway.

[scott fitlin]

By shatter, I mean the diaphragms used to shatter like a window does when a baseball hits its it and goes through. The old Aluminum diaphragms were prone to shattering if overdriven hard. But, you really had to abuse the for it to happen. I never had the problem, some concerts did, and some nightclubs did. Then, Titanium diaphragms resolved this, they didnt shatter. That was one of the things they would tell you when they first came onto the market, and why they were better than Aluminum.

Now that Giskard has told us the 476Be phragms are foil, I would imagine they are quite fragile, and not meant to be handled in their raw state by the inexperienced? Seems logical to me, but, whatever is the case, whomever is fortunate enough to own JBL,s STATEMENT speaker, gets STATEMENT service. I applaud them for that!

It has been said to me, by someone I respect, that the 476Be on the Everest horns sound absolutely incredible. I believe it.

I have tried many things on the market, and of all things, JBL is still the best for quite a few things.

:)

[subwoof]

I have a bag of blown diaphrams in the shop that I saved from the hundreds that accumulated over the years and the aluminum dia's had the best shattering pattern I have ever seen. Of the very few titaniums that were toast, it usually was a crack on a crease or the edge since the force to crack the metal was much more that the force ( energy ) required to burn or fuse open the voice coil.

Being a poor sound company when tads were first introduced meant they were never seen, heard, serviced or used by the vast majority of the industry folk I dealt with save for the few "goldcard" PA's that were financed by daddy when a rich kid graduated from college.

A history on titanium:

The soviet MIG29 was the first mass production jet fighter with a primarily titanium frame AND wing superstructure. It scared the SHIT out of the west when it surpassed all the ceiling and thrust/weight specs for our jets.

The fact that the USSR had the largest ore reserves ( on hand and from client states ) and so many "scientists" on the payroll meant they had the technology to smelt, roll, engineer and form all types of titanium and this "surplus" material came into the world market right after the ruble ( and the entire eastern bloc ) collapsed in 1989.

Gee isn't it funny that so many titanium consumer and pro components came online then??

Never underestimate capitalism..:)

As soon as the ability to roll + form titanium sheets became standard fare nearly every pro driver manufacturer went in that direction. Going from 10 watts to 100 is a big deal when R+D actually meets production.

NOW we are seeing the similar movement towards the other exotic metals ( IE: Be ) and the technology to form them. The fact that TAD was "first" with production using their "deposited" technique meant they garnered the critical ear component of the pro / studio industry.

BUT that was then and NOW that Nd magnets are in every computer, Ipod, Cellphone, etc on the planet, and metal forming methods are now very mature, JBL has put all of these together into the newer products that simply blow away the older stuff on many levels.

I love the sound of my old 2440's in the big 2 ways BUT....I can't argue with progress.

A pair of Be 2435Be's on ebay for 450.00 ?? You can't even go *near* replacement dia's for the old drivers for that!

OK..enough beer spewing...:cheers:

Maybe this weekend I will take a picture of the blown Al dia's I have in the shop and finally get the examples of the Ring rad types off to john for measurement...

sub

[scott fitlin]

Ive seen shattered aluminum phragms, but I never did it myself.

But I have blown a few 18,s from time to time.

[rs237]

Maybe this weekend I will take a picture of the blown Al dia's ...

sub


hello sub,

2441 blown dia.

regards
juergen

ps Someone has been blown Be Dias seen?

[richluvsound]

I'm thinking about a 2245, 2123 or 2122 and 2435 / h9800 .

feedback welcome

Rich

[4313B]

You will probably have to go active with that kind of arrangement.

It probably isn't a very good combo.

We looked at something similar for Project May and in the end we concluded that G.T. was right - "won't work".

If you can find a ten-inch driver that goes down to around 80 Hz really well and then bring in the 2245H below that you might like it. The 2122H will do it but not really well, it starts getting a wee bit uncomfortable under high drive as the VC leaves the gap. Too bad the LE10H isn't more efficient. Maybe a 2251J. I can't recommend the 1200FE enough. Too bad JBL doesn't like to sell them. This forum would do well to buy a hundred of them and pass them around.

[Robh3606]

You have a horn that can get you down bellow 1K with good loading. I would take advantage of it. I use a 2123 with a 2435 on PTH1010s and like it but I wouldn't go that way with the 9800 horn. I would be looking at the 1200Fe or Le14H-3's or 1500's to run up to the horn. I would be thinking a 2 way with the best woofer I could get my hands on.

I have a second set up where I want to try running the PTH1010 lower with a 800Hz crossover point. I will be using LE-14H-3 don't know if the PTH will make it down there or not. In LEAP it looks like I can make it happen but I am not so sure where the horn sensitivity will drop in or how it's going to sound. I know waveguides are not the same as horns as far a loading but I am a little concerned how it will all shake out. A 9800 or a Performance series Horn would be just the ticket and load the driver better as well.

Rob:)

[merlin]

It has been said to me, by someone I respect, that the 476Be on the Everest horns sound absolutely incredible. I believe it.
:)

I've been listening to them again over the last week or so and they are good. I would say they are the first JBLs I've heard that are as smooth as the good TADs. I still don't get on with the speaker as a whole, but that is probably due to poor setup as much as the cabinet. The 476be is however quite a step forward objectively from what I hear.