Harman Kardon Citation XXP and XX Amp

[Bebo]

Hello guys,

I saw that the original post about the twenties is closed.
I' had the honour, in 1980, to be the very first reviewer to test the Matti Otala's Citations ( on Italian magazine Audio Review). The result was...Incredible. My opinion was so enthusiast that my review has been used for months as the back cover of, pratically, all the Japanese Magazine.
I always thought that the XX was (is) one of the best power amplifier ever. And the preamp was not so bad :) too.
During this 27 years I had ( for test, or for my reference amplification) all the best pre and power amp made during this period ( Krells, Levinson 23, 23.1, 20, 20.5, every kind of Macs, every kind of crazy valve amp you can imaging, even the OnGaKu, Rowland's, Perreaux's, Viola, Lamm...
Recently I found a couple of XXP and XX in very good conditions ( except for some transport damages that I'm fixing up) Well, I turned on the Citation's and the impression was exactely the same of 27 years ago.
The one to be in presence of maybe the best power amplifier ever made, and a very very good (and missunterstuded) preamp.
What a glory with my JBL L300 Summit!
Another time surprised by HK: as it was five years ago, when I bought the Valve Citations ones: I,II and V.
Two year ago I decide to show a vintage equipment in my magazine listening room at the Top Audio Show in Milan. Thorens TD 124, Pritchard Arm, ADC ZLM pick up, Citation I and II electronics, Dahlquist DQ 10 Imp, loudspeaker. That was the crowdiest room of the entire show. The sound was simply fantastic ( what an incredible piece is the Citation I preamp! The II amp is a delight, and an incredible powerfull, solid and dinamic driver) and people asked me: "why I should buy all the new, very expensive things exposed in the hundred rooms of the fair?".
Just because word go ahead, and to mantain in the ideal condition a vintage complete equipment require a lot of patience and application.
Anyway,thanks forever to Harman Kardon to had the courage to present in 1980 such a perfect amplifier, with a price that, at time, was considered outrageous ( now it make me smile, looking at the list price of pieces that doesn't have even 10% of that sound and technical perfection).
Someone told me that Harman still service the XX's. Anybody know if it's thrue? For future (hope not) references.

Best Regards to all of you

Bebo Moroni

Italy

[4313B]

Hello
I always thought that the XX was (is) one of the best power amplifier ever.Agreed.
Someone told me that Harman still service the XX's. Anybody know if it's thrue?I really don't know. You might try calling Harman in N.Y. and seeing what they say. 516-496-3400

Schematics (http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Service%20Manual/Citation%20XX%20schems.pdf)

Owner's Manual (http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/Citation%20XX%20om.pdf)

XXP Specs (http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/CitationXXPspecs-om.pdf)

XXP Owner's Manual (http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/CitationXXPom.pdf)

If you have pictures of the units please post them for future reference.

Thanks.

[beppe61]

One thing I do not understand.
If a very good circuit topology is found why do not stick to it ?
The newer should be always an improvement on the older.
If not why change ?
Maybe this is the result when market people lead audio Companies.
Very unfortunate.

Kind regards,

beppe

[Rolf]

One thing I do not understand.
If a very good circuit topology is found why do not stick to it ?
The newer should be always an improvement on the older.
If not why change ?
Maybe this is the result when market people lead audio Companies.
Very unfortunate.

Kind regards,

beppe

Hi beppe, and hello from Norway.

Well, new stuff is supposed to be better. Right?, but not always the fact. That is why we are here on this forum, because we have found out that some of the old JBL stuff actually are better than most of the new stuff.

I have listened to speakers in the 60 - 80 thousand $ range, and to honest I can hear a difference compared to my 4343B's. Some are better, some are not, and one also have to consider the enormous differences in price.

I am very satisfied with my 4343B's, but I know there are better speakers. I am just not willing to pay for the little difference.

When it comes to amps, my experience is that they in general have become better. But there are still 30 years amps out there that is as good as it can get. After all, you can not squeeze more orange juice out of it when it's empty.

[beppe61]

[quote=Rolf;187868]
Hi beppe, and hello from Norway.
Well, new stuff is supposed to be better. Right?, but not always the fact. That is why we are here on this forum, because we have found out that some of the old JBL stuff actually are better than most of the new stuff.
I have listened to speakers in the 60 - 80 thousand $ range, and to honest I can hear a difference compared to my 4343B's.
Some are better, some are not, and one also have to consider the enormous differences in price.
I am very satisfied with my 4343B's, but I know there are better speakers. I am just not willing to pay for the little difference.
When it comes to amps, my experience is that they in general have become better.
But there are still 30 years amps out there that is as good as it can get.
After all, you can not squeeze more orange juice out of it when it's empty.

Hello Rolf good afternoon.
I understand perfectly your point of view.
Newer does not imply better.
You say there are still 30 years amps out there that is as good as it can get
Are you meaning that these amps have reached top performance ?
Could you please list other top value 30 ys old solid state amps ?
Another thing, if the XX was that masterpiece (I have no doubt sincerely) why we did not see clones maybe from the far east ?
As the basic design of the XX must be exceptionally good if I were a cloner that would be my first "victim", maybe in a downsized form (less VA in the transformer and less output devices for less power, but a similar exceptional sound).

Thank you very much indeed and kind regards,

beppe

[4313B]

Another thing, if the XX was that masterpiece (I have no doubt sincerely) why we did not see clones maybe from the far east ?What I remember hearing way back then was that H/K decided to build the best possible state of the art amplifier because A) It could be fun and B) They certainly had the talent assembled to make it happen. I don't know if Matti Otala himself drove the endeavor or if it was someone else. I remember hearing that it was very expensive to produce and it was only produced in a limited run. I cannot remember what the total number produced was. I believe that it was meant as a statement of the state of the art of the time. I could be all wrong and it would be great to hear the whole story from someone directly involved. My understanding is that clones are not an option.

I think this information might be old but I could be wrong.


Matti Otala


Curriculum Vitae

The career of Matti Otala is predominantly industrial. He has worked in key management positions in several large multinational conpanies:

Group Manager, Philips Research Laboratories, Eindhoven, NL specialist, Centre National des Télécommunications (CNET), Paris, F
Chief Engineer, Harman/Kardon Inc., New York, USA
Chief designer, Shirasuna Group, Nagoya, J
Professor of Electronics at the University of Oulu, Oulu, FIN
Founder and Director of the Electronics Laboratory, VTT, FIN
Chief Technical Officer, Kone Lift Group, Helsinki, FIN
Corporate Vice President, Technology, Nokia Group, Helsinki, FIN
Executive Vice President, Bosch Telecom, Frankfurt, D and Advisor to the Corporate Board, Robert Bosch GmbH, Stuttgart, D.

He is currently professor of Technology Management and Business Strategy at the Tampere University of Technology, Finland.

He studied in Finland (Helsinki University of Technology), USA (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) and Switzerland (IMEDE). He holds doctorates from the University of Oulu (electronics) and Tampere University of Technology (h.c., strategic management).

His specialities are Management of Change, Business Process Re-Engineering, International Competitivity, total Quality Management, and Learning Organisations.

He has published 87 scientific and 193 technical papers on electronics, telecommunications and management. He has been granted 101 patents and is fluent in six languages: French, Dutch, German, English, Swedish and Finnish.

[MJC]

If the Citation 11 and 19, that I'm using for my analog system, are reps of that era of HK they were very good indeed.
I can only guess that HK stopped making the Citation line because of the bottom line, as the Japanese imports were cheaper and thus considered a "better cost to quality ratio" for the average buyer. And the fact Citations were going head to head, price wise, with Macs and ML, of that era.

[4313B]

I can only guess that HK stopped making the Citation line because of the bottom line, as the Japanese imports were cheaper and thus considered a "better cost to quality ratio" for the average buyer. And the fact Citations were going head to head, price wise, with Macs and ML, of that era.ML is under the H/K umbrella so there is probably no real need for Citation as well.

[MJC]

ML is under the H/K umbrella so there is probably no real need for Citation as well.
Ya, and back in the '70's both Mac and ML were out of my price range, they were both sold at the Upper Ear in LV.
I don't remember seeing HK Citation gear, back then, in any stores in LV.

[Bebo]

First I want to thanks Giskard for his kindness.

The Citation XXP and XX where a kind of high exercitation in times ( they where designed in 1978 then put on the market in 1980 in, if I remember well, 100 samples each) when high end audio was just a matter for very few people ( usually designated as "mad" from non audio enthusiast people).
It's clear that after the acquisition of Mark Levinson brand and facilities, the production of the Citation's has been considered "something in excess" from HK.
Neverheless there where many attempt to re-launch the citation line on the market, excelent products, but scarcely appreciated by the public because the name Harman Kardon was ( wrongly) associated with mid-class components. The last ones where producted in the '90s, but they don't have any success. Unfortunately. The quality versus price ratio was very high.
To answer to Beppe: yes the XX's remains some of the best solid state electronics ever made, and the quality of the bass of the XX amp is, 27 years later, unrivaled.

Ciao

Bebo

(these are my XX's)

[4313B]

if I remember well, 100 samples eachThat number sounds quite familiar.

I have asked Don to try and dig up more information for us if he can.

these are my XX'sVery nice! Thanks for the photos.

My Citation 21's and 22's are mere shadows.

[Rolf]

[quote=Rolf;187868]
beppe

I have no particular name, but constructions from M. Ottala, J. Curl, P. Perreaux and others comes to mind. Many of today's "top of the line" amps are built on the original concepts of these people, just as today's speakers are built on concepts from J.B. Lansing and a few others of the early days.

What makes some products better today is the technology making it possible to use better materials in production.

Anyway, this is my thoughts about this.

[beppe61]

[quote=Rolf;187969][quote=beppe61;187872]

I have no particular name, but constructions from M. Ottala, J. Curl, P. Perreaux and others comes to mind.
Many of today's "top of the line" amps are built on the original concepts of these people, just as today's speakers are built on concepts from J.B. Lansing and a few others of the early days.
What makes some products better today is the technology making it possible to use better materials in production.
Anyway, this is my thoughts about this.

Hello Rolf,

I agree with you that better parts are available today.
Nevertheless it seems that in the case of the XX (and maybe others, do not know) it is the topology that is particularly right.
My opinion is that the type of circuit is more important soundwise than the quality of the components used.
Anyway I am sure HK used the best parts available at those times.
Nevertheless what intrigues me more is the design.
It would be extremely interesting to read an analysis of the circuit from some experts in the field.
Maybe some solutions could be used in smaller amps with great results.

Kind regards,

beppe

[Hoerninger]

If a very good circuit topology is found why do not stick to it ?
The newer should be always an improvement on the older.

A very good topology most often demands more expensive parts. An old quasi-komplemetary AB-amplifier for background music can be build very cheap.

It is just like with cars. Everything can be designed down to prize or for quality.

Do you have in Italy the electronic magazin "Elektor" which is sold in different European countries? There are/were regularly articles about amplifier design.
___________
Peter

[beppe61]

[quote=Hoerninger;188708]
A very good topology most often demands more expensive parts.

Hello Peter, premium transistors are not that expensive.
I understand that the selection process could be expensive.
Instead I believe that some topologies are better than other.
And I have the feeling that better ones could be even less complex to build.
Some years ago I listen to a line preamp made out of just one mosfet (the Aleph P by Pass Labs). Wonderful.
Sometimes equipments are overengineered, like full of op-amps when just one would be more than enough.
Less parts and better parts could be a wise idea.

An old quasi-komplemetary AB-amplifier for background music can be build very cheap.
It is just like with cars.
Everything can be designed down to prize or for quality.
Do you have in Italy the electronic magazin "Elektor" which is sold in different European countries?
There are/were regularly articles about amplifier design.
___________
Peter

Thank you very much Peter for your kind and valuable information.
Nevertheless I think that it would be extremely interesting a magazine that taken audio masterpieces as the XX performs an in depth analysis on the schematics.
Looking at the schematics the XX does not appear extremely complex.
Or better, I have seen schematics very much more complex and with a higher transistors count.
Of course I could be completely wrong.
For this reason I would like to hear some words from an expert about the circuit (rarely seen in review of commercial units).

Thanks and regards,

beppe

[John]

:presents::xmas:

:D Looks like Xmas came early for me this year as I have stumbled upon a very nice Citation XX this morning in Idaho. Now I just have to get it home. Was not looking for another amp but after hearing all the praise about this amp and then bumping into it, and listening to it I bought it.

Will be home in a few days and will try to post some pictures and more info.:bouncy:

[Audiobeer]

Please, and let us know what you think! :)
I'd be happy to stumble on an older Citation II.

[doodlebug]

I'd be happy to stumble on an older Citation II.

You _will_ hurt your foot - I speak from experience. You will, however, have a nice recovery listening to it with your leg in the air.

Cheers,

David

[coffee]

Hello, did anybody saved those pdf´s from above links ? I would be very pleased to see them.

thank you in advance.

coffee

[Don C]

Unfortunately, it's a difficult game of guess the URL. Here's a good start, I guessed the URL for the schematics correctly on my third try:
http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/ServiceManual/Citation%20XX%20schems.pdf
Edit, here are the rest:
http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/Citation%20XX%20om.pdf (http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/Citation%20XX%20om.pdf)

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/CitationXXPspecs-om.pdf (http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/CitationXXPspecs-om.pdf)

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/CitationXXPom.pdf (http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/CitationXXPom.pdf)

[coffee]

Thank You !

[thetubeguy1954]

I just located and purchased the HK XXP preamp on eBay today based on what I read here. I have an AR SP-9 and HK Citation 16a running my home theater.

I also presently in my main rig I'm using a tubed GoldeNote Stibbert CDP into a 40W/ch, 135LB, Mastersound Reference 845, integrated SET, but at a simple switch of a knob it becomes a power amp! So I'll be looking forward to receiving my HK XXP and playing with it and the Mastersound together...



Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)


SETriodes Group --- Central Florida Audio Society
Space Coast Audio Society --- Fullrange Drivers --- Front & Back Loaded Horns
================================================== ====================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare

[Techray]

I have an HK Citation X-II preamp and a Citation XX power amp. I'm looking to sell. Where is the best place to list these items? Ebay? Please advise. I'm a former National Sales Mgr for HK and JBL

http://www.thevintageknob.org/harman_kardon-Citation_X-II.html

http://www.thevintageknob.org/harman_kardon-Citation_XX.html

[Techray]

I have an HK Citation X-II preamp and a Citation XX power amp. I'm looking to sell. Where is the best place to list these items? Ebay? Please advise. I'm a former National Sales Mgr for HK and JBL

http://www.thevintageknob.org/harman_kardon-Citation_X-II.html

http://www.thevintageknob.org/harman_kardon-Citation_XX.html


In response to some emails requesting pricing on the Citation........

Boy, I've seen the XX for sale from $2000 to $30,000 so I'm a bit lost. I would say I'm looking for about $6000 for the pair or $5500 for the XX and $1500 for the X-II sold separately. I'm also willing to listen to reasonable offers.

Thanks,
Ray (Techray)

[hjames]

In response to some emails requesting pricing on the Citation........
Boy, I've seen the XX for sale from $2000 to $30,000 so I'm a bit lost. I would say I'm looking for about $6000 for the pair or $5500 for the XX and $1500 for the X-II sold separately. I'm also willing to listen to reasonable offers.

Thanks,
Ray (Techray)


If you are going to sell off such rare and interesting gear, we'd sure love some nice clean pictures for the archives here!

[Techray]

Let me see what I can do

[thetubeguy1954]

Let me see what I can do

Hi Techray! I'd love the HK XXP preamp if everything works. The one I said I bought on eBay turned into a fiasco. Please contact me at [email protected]



Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)


SETriodes Group --- Central Florida Audio Society
Space Coast Audio Society --- Fullrange Drivers --- Front & Back Loaded Horns
================================================== ====================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare

[Techray]

Hi Tubeguy,

I don't have an XXP I have an X-II which is a step up. Yes, it works. Are you still interested?

Thanks,
Ray

PS I still need to take some pictures just been really busy....sorry and Happy Thanksgiving!

[jblnut]

And i'm still interested in the XX amp - please post some pics :).

jblnut

[jblnut]

Where did Techray go ? Shows up talking about some of the finest SS gear made then vanishes ?

I asked repeatedly for pics (with a current newspaper or magazine in the photo) and got nothing in reply. Anyone else do better?

jblnut

[Techray]

​Thanks to all that have shown interest over the years. I appreciate the help that some of you offered.

There were so many fakes I've had to deal with on these items that led to many wasted hours of time.

The good news, the Citations have been SOLD and are now in the hands of a real collector and serious buyer.

Have a great day!

[Audiobeer]

It's singing again and wardswebs will be soon also! :applaud:

[Techray]

It's singing again and wardswebs will be soon also! :applaud:

Way to go Mark! Congratulations! and Thanks.

[Audiobeer]

Gratitude to you my friend. Your new career took you away from your passion with this unit. I've owned a lot of amps but the fun has been in the chase. You gave me a great deal and I appreciate it. Let me know what else you got. You have my email. Thanks again!

[Techray]

Thanks Mark. I do have a Citation 21, 22, and 23 if interested. Let me know....they need a good home.

[Audiobeer]

Just got them backed and hooked them up to a pair of 4313B's
I have to tell you in just the limited listening seesion of 30 minutes I am overjoyed! The room that was built for listen is a week from completion. Luther......these are e real deal You got to get yours up and running!!!!

I have only 30 minutes in them. I'll get back after breaking them in.

[4313B]

:cheers:

Too bad they didn't make more of them. :(

[jblnut]

Nice - I love a happy ending !

jblnut

[gasfan]

It's been a while so I don't feel I'm barging in here. Hoping you guys will help me out. I need to know where to attach my dvm to adjust bias on my Citation XX. Might as well have two happy endings, no? :)Thanks in advance.

[LowPhreak]

That's a lot of parts to stuff into that space. :yes:

[Audionutz]

It's been a while so I don't feel I'm barging in here. Hoping you guys will help me out. I need to know where to attach my dvm to adjust bias on my Citation XX. Might as well have two happy endings, no? :)Thanks in advance.


Out of interst, did you ever get the information you asked for ?

I'm in the process of having my XX restored and may be able to assist ?

regards

Scott

[Chas]

I would suggest you post the question on diyAudio. Lots of knowledgable folks there.

[gasfan]

Out of interst, did you ever get the information you asked for ?

I'm in the process of having my XX restored and may be able to assist ?

regards

Scott
Thank you. I've been in contact with Bob, the guy who rebuilt Audiobeer's XX as seen here. I have psu parts on the way. I want to refurb the power supply as a precaution on Bob's advice. However there's an anomaly I haven't gotten a definitive answer about. If I zero the offset on both channels, it jumps to -65mv as soon as I hook up speakers(no signal). If I then zero the offset, it goes to +65mv as soon as I disconnect the load. Strange. Someone on DIY suggested it's oscillating at HF. I've yet to put on a scope but I'm thinking to wait til I redo the psu. Even though manufacturers recommend no load when checking offset, they do so as a precaution to prevent accidents. Offset should not change with or without a load as long as there's no signal.

[Audionutz]

Thank you. I've been in contact with Bob, the guy who rebuilt Audiobeer's XX as seen here. I have psu parts on the way. I want to refurb the power supply as a precaution on Bob's advice. However there's an anomaly I haven't gotten a definitive answer about. If I zero the offset on both channels, it jumps to -65mv as soon as I hook up speakers(no signal). If I then zero the offset, it goes to +65mv as soon as I disconnect the load. Strange. Someone on DIY suggested it's oscillating at HF. I've yet to put on a scope but I'm thinking to wait til I redo the psu. Even though manufacturers recommend no load when checking offset, they do so as a precaution to prevent accidents. Offset should not change with or without a load as long as there's no signal.

Apologies for the delay in responding.

My XX remains in sickbay I'm afraid. It now appears to have a fault in one of the Hybrid Modules. The ones with the thick film resistors sandwiched in the board, that nobody can repair.

Do you know if the gentleman you mention above has had any success repairing these Hybrid Modules, or has any information as to who/how it might be done ?

Regards

Scott

[gasfan]

Apologies for the delay in responding.

My XX remains in sickbay I'm afraid. It now appears to have a fault in one of the Hybrid Modules. The ones with the thick film resistors sandwiched in the board, that nobody can repair.

Do you know if the gentleman you mention above has had any success repairing these Hybrid Modules, or has any information as to who/how it might be done ?

Regards

Scott
Here is Bob's moniker at AK: wlhd1610 He's the gentleman who did the rebuild showcased there.

[Audionutz]

Here is Bob's moniker at AK: wlhd1610 He's the gentleman who did the rebuild showcased there.

Thanks very much! Appreciate the assistance.

Scott