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View Full Version : 414A 16 ohm vs. 414-16C



djgaloot
09-29-2007, 11:13 PM
I have asked this question on another forum but I wanted to get a more definitive answer. I am new to Altec speakers so please bear with me. I am putting together a version of a 9844 and have a 406a driver and 811 horn as well as the 800hz XO. the 12 inch drivers from this system were 414-16Cs. I do not have these, but rather, have a pair of 414A 16 ohms. Will these match together okay? I am concerned about a possible difference in magnet material or speaker parameters. Attached are two pictures of the drivers:

414-16C
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n270/djgaloot/414-16C-1.jpg

414A
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n270/djgaloot/414a-1.jpg

They look different but the info I received so far is they are both Alnico. Correct? If not, is there a negative consequence of using the 414As with the 9844 XO which used the 414-16Cs?
Thanks for setting me straight!
Dave

speakerdave
09-30-2007, 08:25 AM
. . . . the 12 inch drivers from this system were 414-16Cs. I do not have these, but rather, have a pair of 414A 16 ohms. Will these match together okay? I am concerned about a possible difference in magnet material or speaker parameters. . . . . They look different but the info I received so far is they are both Alnico. Correct? If not, is there a negative consequence of using the 414As with the 9844 XO which used the 414-16Cs?

The parties with the deep Altec lore will probably be largely the same in all the forums. The literature and considerably authoritative testimony say that the "C" version is Alnico. You can probably tell by comparing the weight to known Alnico versions. A ferrite magnet to create the same field would need to be measurably heavier.

I have read what I could find on this topic, for the very good reason that I have two pair of 414's for an MTM experiment, and the pairs are different. Just as you have, I have found some opinions, but I doubt either of us will run across anyone who has done measurements and extensive listening tests comparing the differently nuanced 414's. Why would anyone bother? It would be easier to get the very right pair, if you have doubts.

As I understand, you are building one speaker, 9844, (for a center channel?), so the question would be whether your 414's will work OK with the crossover. That I wouldn't worry about. But even if you discover some problem after you've made your speaker (which I doubt will happen), you could lie in wait for a pair of the "C" version to show up on the market. Meanwhile, at least you are up and running.


. . . . Thanks for setting me straight!

I'm not promising that!

David

Docspeakers
09-30-2007, 11:31 PM
I have the answer for you, but I am too tired to post tonight,,, need to get some rest, I look forward to addressing this tomorrow, there are differences that you need to be aware of..

djgaloot
10-01-2007, 11:09 AM
......there are differences that you need to be aware of..

I'm listening!
Thanks

Docspeakers
10-03-2007, 05:23 PM
Sorry for not responding sooner, I am terrible with computers, and I had a hard time logging in.. My grandson helped and now I have Netscape and it works fine.

There are noticable differences... The 414-16C's with the ceramic motors, have different T/S parameters and a different design, but they were built to mimic the original 414 Alnico motors and are very similiar. The 414-8C's have a steeper roll-off at higher frequencies up to the crossover point and help to blend better with the system.

I hope I am correct about this, but I was always under the assumption that the 414-16C's were Ceramic motors, but those pics are a bit confusing, they sure appear to be Alnico due to the small magnet size, but all the C versions are designated as C as they are ceramic motors and the ones I have had were as such, but I cannot remember if the magnet size was the same. From the best of my recollection, they were a bit larger than the ones you pictures, perhaps they sold a later version that was indeed ceramic.. If these 414-16C's are indeed Alnico, they may be identical sonically...

Irregardless, they are interchangable, but need to be replaced in pairs. The Ceramic motored 414-16C's are the superior driver, they might not look as neat, but they are an improved design and are noticably better. But both are stellar performers.. I'd imagine the 414's to be worth more to collectors.. The decision is up to you, try them both... they will both work well with that system.

Overall you will probably notice a little smoother bass with the 414's, and a tighter more articulate bass with the ceramic 414-16C's .

The same difference could be said for the 416-8B vs.the later 416-8C.

If these are indeed Alnico I am curious to know the ones I had, because there were differences.

RKLee
10-03-2007, 08:27 PM
Docspeakers: I bought four 414-8Cs in the early part of 1975, would those be the alnico or ceramic version? When did Altec stop making the alnicos and start with the ceramics?

I am asking only out of curiosity more than anything else, mostly because I don't think my ears are sensitive enough to hear those minute differences. You maybe able to measure them with instrumentation, but my ears just aren't that exact. If they sound good to me, then I'm good.

My friends that have heard my tri-amped double 414, 806/811, & EV T350, think I am an audio engineering genius, but I had to explain to them, that all I built was the box. Everything else came from Altec-Lansing and Electro-Voice. So Greg Timbers your job is safe at JBL.

djgaloot
10-03-2007, 08:52 PM
I should be getting the 414As any day now but my research shows that the 414s and the 414-16Cs that are in the pictures weigh almost identical at about 15 lbs each. I am also under the impression that the ceramics are larger and heavier so I should be able to tell a difference. It was mentioned that the Alnico will not disturb a monitor as much as the ceramic which is one reason I went with the 414As. As I plan to build these up as a center channel to go with my Malibus I am hoping they don't mess with the TV too much.

RKLee: What type of crossover are you using with your three way system? I am going to try mine as-is with the stock 800hz crossover but many have commented on the high frequency roll-off. I may add something on the top end later if needed.

Dave

TnTn
10-03-2007, 09:20 PM
Here's a ceramic 16-ohm Altec 414, simply labeled as 414-16. I have two that came out of a 9844 speaker, not sure what version. It is very well built and is very heavy. Look at the size of the magnet in relation to the cone/surround. Not sure what I would do with my pair yet, but I might do a "small" 2-way similar to the JELab 414 2-way.

Zilch
10-03-2007, 09:26 PM
http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/speakers/414-8C%20LF%20Speaker.pdf

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3729&t=3139

RKLee
10-03-2007, 10:07 PM
.
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RKLee: What type of crossover are you using with your three way system? I am going to try mine as-is with the stock 800hz crossover but many have commented on the high frequency roll-off. I may add something on the top end later if needed.

DaveI am using an analog DeCoursey Labs active unit with Butterworth 12db/oct slopes at 800 and 7kHz that I bought in 1975. The man that owned the company, was an aerospace engineer designing electronic filters for the aerospace and military in the So. Bay area of Los Angeles. I had an Altec 800hz xover, but when I got the EV T350 tweeters I want to move the crossover point to 7kHz, so I sold Altec passive crossover to my brother's friend. I bought the stock EV crossover, but crossover point was at 3.5kHz, a bit too low for my needs. I had no technical expertise to design a passive crossover myself back then, we had no easy access to computers. But active crossover minimizes small distortions introduced by the inductors in passive crossover, also the net effect is that you effectively double your amplifier power.

TnTn & Zilch: Thanks for the pics. I definitely know now that I have the alnico version, but I wasn't sure what exactly the ceramic magnet structure looked like. It looks like any other ceramic woofer.

Docspeakers
10-04-2007, 01:19 AM
Here's a ceramic 16-ohm Altec 414, simply labeled as 414-16. I have two that came out of a 9844 speaker, not sure what version. It is very well built and is very heavy. Look at the size of the magnet in relation to the cone/surround. Not sure what I would do with my pair yet, but I might do a "small" 2-way similar to the JELab 414 2-way.

Yep, these are the ones I was thinking of... These DO sound better, I could have sworn they were the 414-16C's. I mainly had the 15" Altec 416 variant woofers in the past and like I said the ones I remember had a larger magnet. after seeing this pic it was the 414-16 that I was descibing ealier, not the 414-16C.

Seems as if the 414-8C was Alnico, so it would follow that the -16C is as well, good luck.

It might prove that they are indeed acousically the same,. but I'd still only replace in a stereo pair.

What a great combo you've selected, you are a genius, it still takes some thought to decide what to use, and you've cosen great components, I'd recommend trying the same with a 416 variant, they do everything better if you have room for a larger cabinet...

djgaloot
10-04-2007, 07:53 AM
.... they do everything better if you have room for a larger cabinet...

My room is already too small, I'll need to build a bigger house....and perhaps put my wife into speaker re-education camp as a speaker should be heard and not seen. :) My room is about 14 feet deep but I have the opportunity to set the speakers back into the wall; there is a storage room behind where they are going to go so I am going to build a recessed "entertainment center". I'll post pictures of any info I gain from this project and the results.

RKLee: thanks for the info on the active crossover. I have not been down that road..yet!

Thanks to all for the help.
Dave

Docspeakers
10-04-2007, 02:08 PM
You are funny, building a bigger house to accomodate your speakers... Those should do well in that size of a room, if you are looking for something smaller one day, there are plenty of really nice bookshelf speakers made by JBL that will suit your size requirements.. Just keep telling yourself that a smaller room will improve the sound.. I wish you the best of luck, Norbert.

jbefumo
03-13-2016, 10:05 PM
I've long been a major fan of Altec speakers. At the moment have a pair of 417-8Cs in a pro/super reverb hybrid, and a treasured 418 going into a 100W custom amp. A week ago I bought a pair of what were advertised as 417A Altecs, which I planned on putting into the aforementioned 100W project, but when they arrived, they turned out to be 414As. At 25W apiece, they are clearly unsuited for the intended purpose, but I got them pretty inexpensivelty ($72/pair), and figured I'd find some place for them. Problem is, one of them had a tear in the cone, and the other has a bad rattle (but no visible damage that I can see). I offered to keep the one with the rip (which I have since repaired), but the seller gave me a full refund and told me to just keep the speakers. The one with the repaired cone sounds great, as it should. Considering the $0 price, I could certainly just put that one in a medium-power amp, but what I would REALLY like to do is add a couple of tweeters and use them as studio monitors. Worst case, I can always have the rattly one reconed, but that would certainly make the overall deal less attractive. I've gently pushed the cone straight in and out, and there doesn't seem to be any obvious rubbing. Again, the speaker does play, but as soon as the volume is raised to even moderate levels, it begins to rattle. Any other diagnostics I might try? I wouldn't mind trying to do a recone job myself, but the price of the kits is high enough these days that if I'm going to go that far, I'd rather just pay a bit more and have a pro do it. (If it would be helpful, I'll record the sound and post it.) Just hate to see such a lovely pair of transducers wasted.

Thanks,

joe