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smiley67
09-12-2007, 11:01 AM
I finally talked my wife's uncle out of one of his JBL Paragon speakers. It is a 1969 model and it has been sitting for 20 years that I know of.
What product should I use on the wood (Walnut) cabinet to polish it up and is there anything I should do to it before I start using it on a regular basis. For now it will be powered with a Sansui 8080 or G7700.
In 1969 he purchased two Paragons, one for upstairs one for down. The one I picked-up was the upstairs speaker. It was kept under a cover most of the time as he mostly used the one in the basement.
He also gave me a pair of white JBL Caprice speakers. Does anyone have some info on these?
Thanks, Tim

Fangio
09-12-2007, 11:17 AM
Hello Tim, and welcome.

For the Caprice take a look here
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1967-home/page16.jpg

and in a recent thread, post #7 & 14 - do they look like these:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=173074#post173074

For your new paragon, hope the experts will chime in here soon.

smiley67
09-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Thanks for the info on the Caprice speakers. They look just like the ones in the pictures. I have not hooked the Caprices up yet but the Paragon is up and running (sounds fantastic).

Fred Sanford
09-12-2007, 04:41 PM
Check here for instruction for your Paragon:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18228

...and here for more specifics on the finish treatment:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18238

Good luck, nice score. Buy the Uncle something nice, like a sack of White Castle or something.

je

57BELAIRE
09-13-2007, 09:02 AM
Thanks for the info on the Caprice speakers. They look just like the ones in the pictures. I have not hooked the Caprices up yet but the Paragon is up and running (sounds fantastic).

....so how does it look? :blink:

We love to see pics of our beloved vintage JBL collectibles :bouncy:

It wouldn't be a bad idea to check the surrounds on those LE15's
and especially the LE8's before cranking them up and while you're
at it, log those serial numbers for the registry. I think there are
less than 10 Paragons and no Caprice's registered.

kc8tpr
09-13-2007, 02:20 PM
Dang it.

That means there are prolly no more pairs here in ohio.:(

There goes my dream of finding one.

steve

jaynemo
09-14-2007, 09:11 AM
Here is another veneer approach. If there are scratches and generally if the wood needs a facelift without a strip and refinish, use Howards Restor-A-Finish, followed up with their nice beeswax/orange oil called "Feed-N-Wax". I use this stuff religiously they are great products. Use the wax every month or so to maintain that nice 30 year old patina and the wax protects the veneer from drying out.

:applaud:

smiley67
09-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Pictures

Hoerninger
09-14-2007, 12:48 PM
A real beauty! :applaud:
__________
Peter

00Robin
09-14-2007, 05:42 PM
Oh God! What a sight to behold. I copied each one of them for faster droolability at quick click. What has happened to our society? These are works of art,fine pieces of furnishings,lovely,I want to lay my hands on the softness of the wood. Such a beautiful,rich tone.

Makes me wonder if I would sell my Altecs and the HammondB3 and the Leslies and,and,and....
How do they sound? Perfect? I love them. I LOVE them.:applaud:where is the kiss smiley???

00Robin
09-14-2007, 05:44 PM
Here is another veneer approach. If there are scratches and generally if the wood needs a facelift without a strip and refinish, use Howards Restor-A-Finish, followed up with their nice beeswax/orange oil called "Feed-N-Wax". I use this stuff religiously they are great products. Use the wax every month or so to maintain that nice 30 year old patina and the wax protects the veneer from drying out.

:applaud:

yupper,that stuff is amazing. A rubb,rub,here and a rubb,rub,there....

57BELAIRE
09-15-2007, 06:24 AM
SWEET!!!!

From where I sit, it doesn't look like it needs anything more
than a soft cloth from time to time.

Best of luck with your "new" arrival.

"... one upstairs and one downstairs"...your uncle sounds just like
the kind of chaps that inhabit these hallowed halls around here :D

smiley67
09-15-2007, 07:57 AM
I checked out the other Paragon yesterday and it is in a sorry state of repair. Plenty of scratches and the 15s are not even JBL speakers. I guess they blew a long time ago when he was powering it with a Phase Linear amp.
I'm going to talk my brother-in-law into a restoration as he is the new owner of this speaker. I'll post pictures of our progress along the way.
Tim

00Robin
09-15-2007, 09:13 AM
Please do keep posting. I am absolutely fascinated with these....I want to see and hear them in person and just brush that soft wood with my hands.....

RKLee
09-15-2007, 09:55 AM
I checked out the other Paragon yesterday and it is in a sorry state of repair. Plenty of scratches and the 15s are not even JBL speakers. I guess they blew a long time ago when he was powering it with a Phase Linear amp.
I'm going to talk my brother-in-law into a restoration as he is the new owner of this speaker. I'll post pictures of our progress along the way.
TimWow, it must have been really loud because the JBL LE15s can take something like 100 watts continuous. Maybe they were sold for some reason that is unknown today.

Hofmannhp
09-25-2007, 03:20 PM
57BELAIRE:........and while you're
at it, log those serial numbers for the registry. I think there are
less than 10 Paragons and no Caprice's registered.

Hi Russ,

thanks for this "sidekick"

btw: there are now 32 Paragons in the registry.

HP

BMWCCA
09-25-2007, 05:31 PM
Wow, it must have been really loud because the JBL LE15s can take something like 100 watts continuous. Smiley said "he was powering it with a Phase Linear amp". It ain't about loud, it's about the amp's failure mode and propensity for taking the speakers with it.

smiley67
09-25-2007, 08:04 PM
BMWCCA,
Please explain about the amps failure mode. My Brother-in-law that has the other Paragon also picked up the Phase Linear amp. We found some old JBL cabinets with the correct 15 inch speakers. I would hate to install these speakers and blow them.
I'll post some pictures of these cabinets to see if anyone can tell if they are homebrew or genuine JBL. If they are JBL cabinets we won't part them out.
smiley67

RKLee
09-25-2007, 09:18 PM
Smiley said "he was powering it with a Phase Linear amp". It ain't about loud, it's about the amp's failure mode and propensity for taking the speakers with it.Wow that is surprising. I remember reading about Phase Linear's founder Bob Carver saying that his amps have very advanced(for the time period) protection circuits.

BMWCCA
09-25-2007, 09:18 PM
You'll have to ask the EEs here. I'm not one. But, since I grew up in the PL 400 era, I know many folks who lost their Advents, KLHs, and Klipschs to the deadly DC voltage the amps supposedly supplied to the speakers at the point of failure. It's the lucky ones who did not lose their speakers when (usually, not if) the PL failed. Google "flame linear" amp and you might find varying opinions. And also several good guys who profess to be able to tame the beasts. Some even offer protection circuit modifications. (I've got one lined up to repair a PL-400 belonging to my neighbor who's been borrowing a D150-II from me for a few years now.)

Me? I'm a Crown guy, for over thirty years, and I don't know how you destroy a speaker with an amp, though I've heard the early D-series Crowns can do it, too. I give my JBL D130s all the PS400 and DC300A-II I can listen too with never a problem. I did reach thermal shutdown on an early generation-one D150 once, but the JBLs were playing outside to the mountains and the Crown was laying on it's side without a front panel or any air gap. Stuck a pencil underneath it and kept on playing. It's still working fine today, a few feet from me. Take care of your stuff!

RKLee
09-25-2007, 09:57 PM
BMWCCA: I have a couple of Crown D75s, that I used to drive the MF(Altec 806), HF (EV T350), and no problem so far. Wow that surpises me that the PL amps will wipe out drivers. Personally, I never needed the awesome power of the PLs Definitely no fun blowing out drivers.

I know I had amp failure once my kit assemble SWTP(Southwest Tech. Prods. out of Dallas TX) Tigersaours 200 watt amps, and it wiped out the cones on my dual Altec 414s, it literally ripped the voice coils right off the form. Even though I had in-line AGC fast blow automotive fuses(it blew them too), they were of little help. I had to have them reconed. I have to pay a princely sum of $70 to have my 414s reconed.

Maybe a put a huge capacitor in the woofer input, and if there is a amp failure where it puts out DC current, it could protect the woofer. It would have to be pretty big one that is for sure.

57BELAIRE
09-27-2007, 01:19 PM
57BELAIRE:........and while you're
at it, log those serial numbers for the registry. I think there are
less than 10 Paragons and no Caprice's registered.

Hi Russ,

thanks for this "sidekick"

btw: there are now 32 Paragons in the registry.

HP

Well done HP!

When you get around to printing the registry in booklet
form, I'm buying.

Don't forget if you're down my way next visit I've got some
Warsteiners on ice!:cheers:

Hofmannhp
09-27-2007, 02:22 PM
....
Don't forget if you're down my way next visit I've got some
Warsteiners on ice!:cheers:
be sure Russ,

next year CA, NV and AZ is on the plan, but in 2009, I will be more than happy to meet you again.
I think you go too far to cool them down till then :D

HP

BTW: when printed out, the registry now has about 260 pages with 6538 items. With all the forums members Paragons, I guess there will be 50 or 60 in the registry....

smiley67
10-13-2007, 02:22 PM
I went with the Gum Turpentine and Boiled Linseed Oil. Although there are still a couple of "dry spots", this thing looks 100% better. I'm going to let the first application set a day or two and then reapply another coat and then polish it off. I'll post the new pictures when it is finished. It looks alot better than my house smells.:(
In my opinion the Paragons that sell on e-bay should be treated with the turpentine and linseed oil before they are listed. By the way the current Paragon on e-bay has only five slabs on the front curved panel.
It looks like Paragon #2 will have to wait untill after the first of the year to get started on it. It's in the garage in pieces. The cabinet is sound but it will need a complete refinish.

subwoof
10-13-2007, 07:49 PM
Those older PL amplifiers had about as much protection as a 5 year old rubber in a teenager's wallet. The amps had super thin aluminum chassis and the front panels fell off when those funky bolts came loose.

The output device selection, too-small predriver devices, et all meant that if the output saw an impedance below a certain value, it would have a cascade failure and throw 65 volts to the lucky voice coil.

If you want a decent "test" amplifier, look for an older JBL/UREI 6230 or 6260. They have relays and a very very stable design.

Fuses are basically useless since they cannot blow as fast as the electrons can flow down a wire ( umm...speed of light?? ). The best defense is a DC detection relay that disconnects the speaker lines in case of failure. This way if it detects DC, it will open in 1/2 cycle ( appox 16ms ) so any damage to the speaker would be extremely limited.

Back in the 70's and 80's many DIY projects in the electronics magazines were just for this use and at the time, the phase 400 was the most affordable and powerful amp available to the great unwashed.

Bob Carver was an early master at marketing + selective science for his amplifier designs. By far the most unique patterns I have ever seen on an oscilloscope is when one of his "magnetic field" amplifiers was driven into clipping with a very reactive ( real world ) load. Lucas couldn't of done better graphics for star wars..:)

sub

scott fitlin
10-14-2007, 09:33 AM
BMWCCA,
Please explain about the amps failure mode. My Brother-in-law that has the other Paragon also picked up the Phase Linear amp. We found some old JBL cabinets with the correct 15 inch speakers. I would hate to install these speakers and blow them.
I'll post some pictures of these cabinets to see if anyone can tell if they are homebrew or genuine JBL. If they are JBL cabinets we won't part them out.
smiley67I would seriously advise NOT using Phase Linear amps on those vintage speakers. They were always known to blow out, and when they did, they take the speakers with them.

They had a nickname for Phase Linear. " Flame Linear "

BigT
10-14-2007, 10:26 PM
What a gift! At least, if this Ebay auction is any indication : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260168766426&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

I very much doubt that I could resist selling it if it were mine.

What did the Paragon list for when new?

Zilch
10-14-2007, 10:31 PM
Lovely. The full page lifted from this site.

[Even the hyperlinks work.... :biting: ]

yggdrasil
10-15-2007, 10:33 AM
What a gift! At least, if this Ebay auction is any indication : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260168766426&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

I very much doubt that I could resist selling it if it were mine.

What did the Paragon list for when new?
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/price-lists/price-lists.htm

Just pick a year from 1957 to ~1984.

brutal
10-15-2007, 11:48 PM
Lovely. The full page lifted from this site.

[Even the hyperlinks work.... :biting: ]

Copywrite Don McRitchie right there on the page too. I'm guessing he did not give permission?:die:

smiley67
10-16-2007, 05:51 AM
I would seriously advise NOT using Phase Linear amps on those vintage speakers. They were always known to blow out, and when they did, they take the speakers with them.

They had a nickname for Phase Linear. " Flame Linear "

It looks like the old Phase Linear will be posted on e-bay. Thanks for the warnings on this amplifier. I wanted to use McIntosh power but the Phase Linear was free. Oh well, easy come - easy go.:(
I'll start saving my pennies.

Thom
10-17-2007, 08:05 AM
I don't think there are any really big amps from that era that don't have that rep among some group or other. Sansui 2000's really did deserve the rep of leaking DC and burning out speakers.Putting huge caps in series with the outputs fixed that. When I worked in a JBL shop I think every vet brought home a Sansui 2000 and none of them liked Japenese speakers and we modified at least dozens of them. If you like the Phase Linear I'd keep it. If you don't like it thats different. I don't remember the circuit but it was dead simple. I don't think you can get non-polorized as large as we used so there must have been to reversed to each other for each speaker. I think to some extent the people who bought the big amps were people who abused them and therefor the rep. Just like cars and big engines. If you are using a crossover, DC is only going to get to the woofer even if you don't use any protection. It will take high power high frequency noise to take out the mid (mid noise) or the tweeter.

SUPERBEE
10-17-2007, 08:16 AM
After trying several amps/receivers on my Paragon I am currently running it with a H.H. Scott LK-72 and a Mcintosh MQ-101 EQ and I think it sounds phenomenal in both the CD and phono stage.

I will one day try my MC 75s on the Paragon and probably move to some big MAC mono blocks for it then but right now I am happy:D





It looks like the old Phase Linear will be posted on e-bay. Thanks for the warnings on this amplifier. I wanted to use McIntosh power but the Phase Linear was free. Oh well, easy come - easy go.:(
I'll start saving my pennies.

louped garouv
10-17-2007, 01:33 PM
I have an old phase linear 200 Series II that i have been using off and on for several years now without any failure...

i guess YMMV
:)

Harkness
10-18-2007, 05:33 PM
i recently picked up a very nice clean Bryston 2B LP that is sounding very sweet with my horn loaded JBL's. i can recommend that amp wholeheartedly.

smiley67
11-11-2007, 05:22 PM
Here are some before and after pics of Paragon #2. We cleaned it with a light solution of oil soap and water then put the turpentine and mineral spirits on. What a difference! We thought it may need refinished but it looks good to me.

Hofmannhp
11-11-2007, 11:23 PM
Hi Tim,

wow, what a nice speaker under the dust.

can you get the serial numbers for the registry?

will be nice.

HP

57BELAIRE
11-12-2007, 03:21 AM
I'm dying to know what's inside...more pics, please :bouncy:

donaudio
11-15-2007, 10:20 AM
Near Mint....Doccumented In the Registry. 1974 Vintage

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=424793&is_user=0

donaudio
11-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Paragon serial number is - 41838
Cabinet - 1049
LE15As - 23959, 23976
H5038Ps - 11920, 11909
375s - 16807, 15811
075s - 88672, 88663
N7000 - 17438
LX5 - 26274
N7000 - 17434
LX5 - 26273