Veneer help please

[macaroonie]

As you may have noticed I am reaching the finishing stage of my project.
I freely admit I am not that experienced at veneering and worse I aim to use quarter cut oak with rays ( see pic they are the pale marks ) which tends to be chippy or brittle. Of course I will do a test but any input would be most welcome.
My main concern is the splitty nature of dry veneer but tell me about the adhesive versus moistening the veneer.:dont-know

[Hoerninger]

Riessen once gave some instructive tipps for veneering, the best I have ever found in this forum:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55204&postcount=10
____________
Peter

[MJC]

Using a good quality contact cement is the first step, imho, water base contact is best. Use a small foam roller to apply.
Before I stained the veneer, I gave it a like sanding, and NOT with real fine sandpaper, as I was using a Black Stain Concentrate, and wanted to get a deep black, not a Walnut color. I just keep soaking the veneer until I got the shade of black I wanted, let it sit per instructions and then wiped it off. Let it cure for a day and then apply the finish.

[macaroonie]

Still looking for tips on getting round that curve ( L 300 style rounded edges ):applaud:

[MJC]

Still looking for tips on getting round that curve ( L 300 style rounded edges ):applaud:
Well, if you are running the grain of the wood length-wise with the corner, then there should be no problem. It will easily bend around the corner.
If not then you might have to lightly score the back of the veneer with a sharp knife.

[garyl]

I do alot of pieces with solid Quartersawn White Oak lumber.

My best advice or comment will be to wish you luck!:banghead:

As you already know, the grain is reversed and all the edges are as brittle as can be. The medulary rays are similar to flakes and almost seem to be applied rather then in the wood.

With all oaks, moisture is the enemy so please avoid that idea.

You must trim and sand in one direction only so as not to lift the rays. It is very common when working with full thickness boards to end up with tear outs at the rays so you have to be willing to live with a few imperfections that are almost inevitable. The character of the grain pattern is very forgiving of these imperfections and most are almost unnoticable when stained and finished.

If you have a full thickness board of QS white oak, look at the end grain and you will see the annual growth rings of the wood are going in the same direction as the edge thickness of each board or in other words from face to face. This leaves the edges very prone to tear outs.

On a more positive note, this also allows the expansion and contraction of this wood to be most prominent in thickness rather then the standard cut wood which expands and contracts in width.

It is very tough to work with yet is a very stable and gorgeous wood.

Once it is adheared to the substrate it should remain quite stable and it looks it absolute best when fumed with ammonia which darkens the pourous wood between the rays but does not affect the rays themselves.

I have a love-hate relationship with QS White Oak because it looks and performs great yet it is so finicky to work with. All of my home furnishings are QSWO and made by me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/Personal%20Pics/DSCN0639.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/Personal%20Pics/DSCN1715.jpg

Enjoy!

Gary

[ejfud]

Buy some backed veneer. It will save you the headaches you have coming. Not a good veneer to learn on.

Gary

[saeman]

Not to be argumenatitive but the best way (in my humble/bumble opinion) that I have found to apply veneer to an already assembled cabinet is to use wood glue. I have used contact many many times and the results from using wood glue over contact cement have always proven beneficial.

How well a given adhesive bonds the veneer to the substrate is only one issue of concern. Certainly there are many contact cement adhesives that will do the job - the stinky brain cell killing type used by counter top producers that's available in any hardware store all the way to the two part spray types used in industry. I have used veneer with self adhesive backing (contact cement by nature) and also used roller applied and spray applied contact cements. All have proven adequate to provide a good bond.

The issue is with any exposed veneer edge. On ALL JBL monitors that I have fiddled with there are always exposed veneer edges - i.e. where the top overlaps the sides or where the front edge meets the face trim. These are the areas where problems will come up. One major problem with contact cement is that it's rubbery (is that a word) and will not sand nor will it take any type of stain. Every time I have used contact cement, exposed edges have been an issue. I have also had lifting or delaminating of the veneer (over time) at the exposed edges. Keep these issues in mind if you choose to use contact cement.

Wood glue - I've been busy these past several months building cabinets and I'm going thru a gallon of glue a week - and most of it is being used to lay down veneer. I use almost strictly Titebond II and I buy 2-3 gallons at a time. Here's my routine and you can decide if it fits your needs.

I apply 3 coats to the substrate and 2 coats to the back of PAPERBACK 10 mil veneer. The glue is applied using a medium nap 4" wide paint roller. In the winter I will sometimes lightly thin the glue with water. In the summer it's not necessary. I use 3 coats on the substrate because the first coat will usually dissappear into the wood but not so on the veneer. After the first cabinet coat you will find that it has raised the grain and left you with a rough surface after it dries - like 80 grit sand paper. After the first coat dries I will always drag a sanding block with 100 grit paper over the surface to smooth it out.

Apply the successive glue coats one after another as soon as the previous one has dried. When the last coat is dry you will be ready to apply the veneer. I ALWAYS try to lay the veneer after the glue is dry to the touch but not hardened. The best results I have achieved is when the glue is still soft enough that you can dig into it using a fingernail. You can actually let it sit for up to two days and still lay the veneer down.

Most wood glues are poly based even though you can thin them with water. Most manufacturers say that it takes the glue near two days to fully harden and cure.

With the glue dry I will lay the veneer in place and use my wife's long abandoned clothes iron to iron it down. I will usually work about two square feet at a time and here's my routine - I use full heat on the iron but always place a layer of cloth over the veneer as a heat barrier to protect the veneer and to prevent overheating. The goal is to heat and reactivate the glue that you applied to the two surfaces. If you get it too hot you will MELT the glue and then you're kinda screwed. The melted glue will expand and create a bubble under the veneer. When this happes you'll be forced to slit open the bubble, let the glue dry again and then attempt to roll down the affected spot. This is a major hassle and all of the efforts will usually be visible after sanding and oiling.

Don't let this scare you off - just keep that cloth layer over the veneer and don't ponder too long in one place with the iron.

I use a 4" veneer roller for my efforts. Iron over the 2 foot area until the veneer it totally laid down. You will hear crackling under the veneer until it it bonded so you will know when the crackling is gone that it is bonded. After that start over the area again and follow the iron, in the direction of the grain, with your veneer roller (iron in your left hand, roller in the right). After you roll the entire area briefly heat your 2 foot area again, remove the cloth and roll cross-grain. While doing this you want to carefully listen for any crackling under the roller. If you hear any, reheat and roll until it's gone.

This may sound like a lot of work but it's not once you get the hang of it. It's as fool proof a method as I have found - unless you can find a vacuum bag big enough to fit a whole cabinet.

Even using contact cement to get the best results you need to heat and roll as I have described.

Veneer - I ALWAYS use 10 mil paperback. Remember those exposed edges - with paperback the veneer is as thin as you can buy and the edge is less obvious and easier to hide. You have to look hard to see my edges after the cabinet is finished. 22 mill bubble free is good veneer but it's thick and leaves an obvious exposed edge. Pheonolic backed veneer is even worse as it's more like formica and will leave an edge that will not stain period.....

Veneer trimming - I usually rough cut the piece to leave 1/8" to 1/4" overhang on each edge. After application I use a laminate trimmer with a flush cut bit to trim the excess. Before cutting cross-grain use a sharp utility knife to scribe the veneer first. This will prevent chipping at the bit cuts cross-grain. Some guys recommend using small block planes and similar veneer trimmers. If you go this way remember that the veneer is wood and wood has a grain pattern and when you least expect it you will splinter your edge, even if you just installed a new blade. A decent laminate trimmer (like those offered for formica trimming) will cost you about $100. Buy the one that spin the fastest.

After you have trimmed the excess veneer go around the entire surface - fingers laying on top and your thumb trying to lift the veneer edge - like the action of thumbing thru a book or a deck of cards. You'be be listening for spots around the edge where the veneer is not properly bonded. You hear the difference - like a loose page - if there are any problem spots mark them and move along. Afterwards you will reheat and roll the area again.

How much glue - why all of the coats? Most veneer manufacturers recommend a glue later between the two surfaces that is 6 mil thick. Not enough and there's nothing to heat and fuse together - too much and you can have a lumpy surface. My receipt of 3 and 2 has been proven on more 4x8 sheets of veneer that I can remember.

Over years and years of laying veneer I have never (cross my fingers) had any delamination - edges or elsewhere. When I was out of high school, for a while I worked in a furniture factory and they veneered their own base wood products and guess what they used - heated glue applied to the surfaces before they fed them into a roller press which roll bonded the veneer in place with HEAT. I remember standing by the machine and it was like standing in between two big pizza ovens. I wish I knew their glue formula. This process was common place back then and I'm quite sure by looking below the surface on JBL's cabinets that they were done the same way. Today in industry I have found that contact cements are more common - but those folks have all kinds of neat machinery at their disposal.

Enough said as this point (maybe too much) but remember my initial concerns - hiding exposed edges and edge delamination.

This is just my method and one that I've proven to work for the type of work that I do.

P.S. 10 mil veneer will wrap nicely around curver surfaces but it's a bit more time consuming applying even heat and roller pressure to these surfaces. If you scribe the veneer (remember it's only got a 10 mil paper backing) the veneer will likely leave a ridge or crease at these scribe points.

Rick:)

[garyl]

Buy some backed veneer. It will save you the headaches you have coming. Not a good veneer to learn on.

Gary

Agreed! Rift or quarter sawn veneers are very hard to learn with and Burls are even worse. When ever you have grain patterns going in six different directions at the edges you are presented with major challenges.

Wood glue such as Tite bond works great on some veneers but not on all.
I used it with unbacked Mahogany and Walnut burl and although the veneer is stuck to stay, the glue bleeds through the pourous portions of the grain and is nearly impossible to stain once the glue dries in these areas.
I have also used the 3M sticky backed veneers with varrying degrees of success and failure. It is no fun and quite expensive to be this close to the final touches and have to say "I did it right because I did it twice".
Practice and experimentation with all of the above techniques will show you the way and I always buy a little extra and play around a bit with cut off scraps on the substrate before I tackle the cabinets.

Gary

[macaroonie]

Is Titebond a PVA wood glue ?
Does anyone have any experience with Pearl glue. It comes as little beads of orange brown colour which you then dissolve im water and heat till it is viscous.

[macaroonie]

This is the stuff and yes it bends with ease. Just got to make it stick.:D

[grumpy]

Does anyone have any experience with Pearl glue. It comes as little beads of orange brown colour which you then dissolve im water and heat till it is viscous.

Hide glue? only experience is in disassembly... and in reading about use for period
restoration and musical instrument assembly. :dont-know Nice project :).

[macaroonie]

I did try it once. It seems high on technique but pretty much permanent when done.
I tried out my first round over with that large cutter. turned out to be a doddle two passes and that is it. Mind you it is brand spanking I bet its an angry bastard when it is getting dull.
The main point is that that oak rolls over the curve without any fuss at all.
Phew.
I.m going to try a tester with the same profile using pva and if Rich is a cool dude ( which he is ) i,ll try the iron on film.
Any more advice is very welcome but thanks all so far.:applaud:

[MJC]

here is a pic of an end edge seam that was applied with water base contact. Vertical seam on sub.

[macaroonie]

:applaud:

[MJC]

:applaud:
Thanks, but the pic isn't as good as it could have been. I had light coming through a small window and reflecting off the wall behind me, putting the side of the sub in a mixed light.
One other thing is the stain and/or finish used and the adhesive used.
I've found, both at home and where I work, that some glues don't hold up to many stains or finishes(veneer separating from the subtate at a point in time after the finish is applied.)
The water based contact I used is standing up to the stain concentrate(thinned 1 part stain to 4 parts mineral spirits), that I applied liberal and kept wet for a good 30 minutes.

[Woody Banks]

Rick
Thanks for the glue advice and taking time to share the procedure that works. Very timely! After my last attempt with raw veneer and contact cement, I decided to use the paper backed veneer with Titebond II and the iron method. Thanks again!
Woody

[saeman]

When you least expect it, up pops Woody Banks - Hi Woody and where are you on your new project??? I haven't talked with you for some time.

I'm happy that the process has worked for you. I was hoping after my post that someone out there would write a similiar procedure for their process using other veneer types and bonding techniques - nothing so far. I'm sure that we have some other veneer qualified/experienced members who have yet to speak up.

As I have already said, paper back veneer and glue is my favorite method, but it's not the only way to go.

You mentioned using raw veneer with no backing and I haven't thought about raw veneer for many years; back to making chess boards and small table tops. From my experience fast tack/dry contact cement would be the best choice for veneer without any form of protective backing. Wood glue and epoxy could/would leach thru the veneer before it dried.

Raw veneer is very hard to find these days and most veneer suppliers do not offer it. When you do find raw veneer offered it is usually in pieces too small for large cabinet projects. Most seems to be offered for the hobbiest doing musical instruments, checker boards, etc. I can't imagine the cost of a cured, dried and sanded 4x8 sheet of raw veneer. Someone enlighten me please.

There are several reasons why raw veneer is less common in today's market - most related to cost and some do to handling and working. Raw veneer is much thicker than the layer applied to the paper back types. It has to be in order to allow handling, working and to survive shipping without damage. A veneer maker can triple to quadruple his yield from a given log by slicing it thinner and bonding it to a backing sheet. The paper backing used is approx. 10 mil and provides the stability needed to keep the veneer from falling apart. The actual thickness of the veneer layer varies depencing on the species and grain of the wood.

There is some great information on the Oakwood Veneer web site www. oakwoodveneer.com on how veneer is produced, for any one who might be interested. A hardwood log that is suitable for veneer is much more valuable than is a log that would simply be cut up into hardwood lumber boards. The thinner they slice it the more money the log generates in profit. Years ago you could sand all day without going thru the veneer - today you have a thinner layer and if you're not careful you'll go thru the veneer layer. I've used many types over the years and I have experienced some of these difficulties.

Tell me what you know about using raw veneer.:banghead:

Rick

[richluvsound]

Hi Rick,

Paper backed santos $400 per 8' x 4' sheet here in the UK. I went raw for that reason on the 4333 refurb. It cost me half that in raw form. Mirror matching
is the issue with raw veneer. I clamped the sheets between 2 steel straight edges and used a horizontal linisher. Worked great as I only needed 31" for the long side of the cab. The other way is a block plane and sandpaper while still using the clamped straight-edge. On bigger cabs I'll have sheets made up on a paper backing. I'd never used it raw before. I just had to suck it and see !
The sheet glue worked well for me . The ironing can be a bugger,too much heat and the veneer shrinks and splits. Is the paper-backed prone to doing the same ?

I tried to descride the raw process in my 4333a thread. I just get frustrated though,as my typing skills are still pretty crap.

Rich

[saeman]

Hi Rich:

Your determination is commendable but it all sounds like too much work for me. Taking individual flitches of raw product and book match joining them to the desired width is major work with questionable results. I've seamed flitches side by side before using the old time tape and glue method and the seam is always 10 times more visible than that offered in backed full sheets. Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age!!!! Another possibility is that I have found a way of doing the job that works for me, fool proof every time, and I might be affraid of trying something new and failing - also a sign of getting old.

Here's a thought - evaluate the total material costs for a pair of cabinets and include everything necessary to build them - base stock for cabinet top/bottom/sides/back/ baffle, all bracing material, trim, back and baffle, paint, glue, all hardware, insulation, Zilch cloth and veneer. My numbers tell me that the cost of the veneer against the total materials cost is not a significant amount. Since the veneer is all that shows when the project is done I've always voted to buy good veneer; AA premium or better. It might add 10% max to the final cost upon completion.

Rick

[Woody Banks]

Howdy Rick

The 4355 project has finally moved into the veneering stage. Mt first attempt was with raw veneer. I purchased some beautiful ribboned makore and used the standard contact cement approach. I applied the veneer to the baffle board only to discover the following day that it had lifted or bubbled up. :banghead: I sharpened the old chisel and removed every bit of the makore. I then decided to laminate a 1/4" ply of Sapelli to the baffles. I picked the Sapelli because it was a close match to the Jatoba horns I will be using and Oakwood carried the paper backed Sapelli.
I believe the reason behind the raw veneer failure this time was that the ribboned grain soaked up more of the cement than normal and did not leave enough for proper adhesion. Pilot error! I usually use too much glue, but not this time.
I will post a photo when I have something to show!

Woody

[macaroonie]

Woody I did read somewhere that it is a good idea to prime your surface if it is porous ( when using contact adhesive ) in fact it may well have been on the application notes with the adhesive.
I quite often use a smear of lightly thinned adhesive applied with a straight edged spreader. This would be on raw ply or mdf which is often quite dusty on site especially if Mr Router has been at play.
After that I will use the notched spreaders as the use requires.

[loach71]

Howdy Rick

The 4355 project has finally moved into the veneering stage. Mt first attempt was with raw veneer. I purchased some beautiful ribboned makore and used the standard contact cement approach. I applied the veneer to the baffle board only to discover the following day that it had lifted or bubbled up. :banghead: I sharpened the old chisel and removed every bit of the makore. I then decided to laminate a 1/4" ply of Spell to the baffles. I picked the Spell because it was a close match to the Jatoba horns I will be using and Oakwood carried the paper backed Sapelli.
I believe the reason behind the raw veneer failure this time was that the ribboned grain soaked up more of the cement than normal and did not leave enough for proper adhesion. Pilot error! I usually use too much glue, but not this time.
I will post a photo when I have something to show!

Woody

I agree with Woody..
You MUST allow the contact cement to dry so that it is NOT STICKY to the touch. This ensures that the volatile solvents in the contact cement have DRIED OFF -- escaped to the atmosphere. Once this is done ( 1/2 hour to one hour depending upon temperature) I lay waxed paper on the workpiece -- then I lay the veneer on the waxed paper.

If the contact cement has dried properly (NON STICKY), I can move the veneer around until its alignment is to my satisfaction. I can then incrementally shift the waxed paper to expose the veneer to the substrate and start the contact bond process.


tim