Altec help please, newbie

[ssgreg@comcast.]

Just accquired a pair of Altec 416-A woofers and a pair of 802-D drivers with H 811 B horns. I would like to build cabinets for these Can anyone suggest cabinet plans/ drawings.

I also need suggestions for crossovers for this combination. Lastly, is this going to be a really great sounding speaker system? Thanks.

[mlr]

You have the components of an "A7". In my opinion this arrangement, in an A7 box is terrific! I like the large format Altec drivers (288's), and multicell horns a bit better, but I think the stuff you have will blow your friggen mind. You can buy an empty set of Altec 828 cabs (A5/A7) for less than you could make them. There's a set of 828's on ebay right now with a minimum bid of around $400.00, but I think you could find a set considerably cheaper.

Your 416's should have a 16" cast frame. Those are really sought after! If you want an original crossover to match, find a set of Altec "N801-8A's". Your horns cross at 800hz. In my opinion, mounting the horns on top, instead of inside the cabinet allows a better sound.

If your married, you may be required to go with 'Model 19' boxes instead of "828's". The 19's are better looking, but in my opinion, can't hold a candle to the horns. If you elect for 19's, you'd probably do better to make them yourself, as originals sell pretty high, and are usually in crappy condition (the 19's were made for home owners, and were kind of crappy to start with).

Judging from your comments, it appears as though you've never heard a set of A7's.... if so, you will consider yourself incredibly lucky once you do. Anyhoo... just my 2 cents.

NOTE: I have some 828's (MDF), and 825's (plywood) in excellent condition. However, once you figure shipping in, I would think you could find a set closer to you, and probably for a lot less than I'd ask for mine (greedy fat bastard).

enjoy!
Mike

[Zilch]

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/plans/altec-plans.htm

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14690

I would not build A7s or Model 19s, and I certainly would not use N801-8A crossovers.

M19 was sold as a studio monitor as well, actually....

[ssgreg@comcast.]

Please tell me what your suggestions would be . . . .

[louped garouv]

I like the A7s but probably wouldn't build them....

probably be able find a pair locally for pretty small change...

[spkrman57]

I have a pair in decent(not great shape) buried in the garage.

PM me if interested.

Regards, Ron

[Zilch]

Please tell me what your suggestions would be . . . .More like what GaryL built, 6 cuft, I think it was, just wide enough to accommodate the 811B horn, and more vertical to get it up to listening height. Gary doesn't upload his pics to the site, so they often morph into red "X"s in older threads. I'll watch for some to repost here.

I'd use the BMS compression drivers rather than the Altecs, and either M19 crossovers of DIY 846B plus compensation as discussed in the thread I linked above. There are others developing improved version crossovers for that combination and I would hope to see their designs here soon. N801-8A is "rudimentary," and has no HF compensation. Altec themselves moved well beyond that in their later offerings.

I have no experience working with the Altec 416 woofers, but I believe it's generally acknowledged that Valencia et. al. vented box size is too small, and my own sims indicate M19 is too big. They may be better suited to use in bass horns, actually, but in reasonable sizes, those lack extended bass. :dont-know

There's lots of gushing to be read about "That Altec Sound," but objectively, the standard configurations are, let's say, "compromised" by contemporary standards. It's a matter of what you want, how you want to use your speakers, and your own definition of "great-sounding."

[scott fitlin]

There's lots of gushing to be read about "That Altec Sound," but objectively, the standard configurations are, let's say, "compromised" by contemporary standards. It's a matter of what you want, how you want to use your speakers, and your own definition of "great-sounding.":D

[Shane Shuster]

There's lots of gushing to be read about "That Altec Sound," but objectively, the standard configurations are, let's say, "compromised" by contemporary standards.

To be fair, if you only listen to certain types of music at certain volumes, they are hard to beat for the money. If you like older rock or jazz at somewhat loud levels, or if you want it to sound like an electric guitar is in the room they will beat most contemporary speakers. If you like large scale orchestra or modern music they are not very good.

I would put the 416s in about a 5-6cu ft box ported around 50hz to 60hz. Make the box so the middle of the horn sits at ear height and try to have the woofer as close to the top of the box as is structurally sound.

I would skip buying an original altec crossover because alot of them aren't within spec anymore. They are easy to make 2nd order crossovers. If you want less horn honk crossover higher like a model 19. If you want the woofer to sound better crossover at 800hz.

I would let them roll off at 9k because I feel forcing the old 811bs and 511bs to have treble response just ends up with distorted treble.

The A7 boxes are harder to build and I think you should try to listen to a pair before going to the trouble of building one. They have lots of weaknesses for the amount of space they take up.

[CONVERGENCE]

It depends what you need it for. The A-7 are made for small venues.
Model 19 "XO 1200 HZ" is an excellent choice but quite complicated to make
but worth every penny and you can get brand new XO from ICONIC.

The least expensive cab would be a Valencia ported cab XO at 800 HZ
I recommend BI amp since no passive XO has been redesigned for it.

.......................................

[Russellc]

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/plans/altec-plans.htm

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14690

I would not build A7s or Model 19s, and I certainly would not use N801-8A crossovers.

M19 was sold as a studio monitor as well, actually....
Whats wrong with A7s? (besides the size, that is)

russellc

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=10471#post10471

[ssgreg@comcast.]

Just home from vacation this week and I've been catching up on my reading, thanks for all the replys. I had the 802 D into GPA and it looks like the diaphragms were replaced with 902-16. So I'm keeping my eyes open for a pair of empty cabinets to mate these up with. There are quite a few choices to be made and being not too bright in this area I'll be taking baby steps. I do have a Altec A5??? that I will be selling to help fund my speaker quest. I say A5 but not sure, it's a 288-16K driver with a 1505B horn and a N-500F dividing network. I've been told I should offer it here before considering ebay and I agree as everyone is so knowledgeable and helpful.

[Docspeakers]

I have owned and used every one of these driver's in one way or another over the years, the key is building a set of crossovers that will work for your goals.. and building a cabinet with the correct porting, bigger is not always better.

A lot of people like to EQ Altec to get them to sound a certain way, but then why buy Altec in the first place?? They have a distinctive sound, take it or leave it... they have a lot of trade-offs, but can really be special to the right listener.

The best Altec I've heard is the factory Altec Model 19 with no EQ, Altec did a decent job with the M19 crossover from the factory, but there are great improvements to be made.. Zilch, you illuded to using BMS compression drivers, what!? He wants to build an Altec system, while they may be better, the Altec compression driver is what makes their sound distinctive.. If I were you, I'd just tweak the crossovers you have or build new ones, it would sure beat buying another set of compression drivers. And yes the M19 will work "decent" with those components.

As to the cabinets, A7's are the standard, but as is discussed, they have an over-inflated midrange as they were meant as cinema speakers..

I'd build some contemporary bass reflex cabs for the woofer and mount the compression driver/horn at your normal listening height.. on top..

Some like them higher, some lower, the Altec 19 is a decent sized cab for that woofer, but I agree with Zilch, its a little large, the bass can sometimes read as "boomy" with those woofers.. I'd go with something a little smaller, just be sure to get the porting right..

[speakerdave]

This kind of discussion reminds of how often ontogeny recapitulates philogeny in this hobby. Even now people want to go through the same steps with Altec that many went through decades ago.

The one thing that stock classic Altec certainly works for is an introduction to very dynamic audio speakers. After awhile though the truncated frequency extremes and the raspy midrange persuade you it's OK to get rid of them. At least that's the progression I went through with my Heath Legatos and Altec A-7's-as-furniture Magnificents.

It's nice that today a lot of people, including Altec, have found solutions to some of those problems without compromising the fundamental dynamism. Most of the important ones have already been mentioned, but I think it worth noting that if you have older 811bs--and not the very pretty and collectable green ones, since it would be a shame to mess them up--you should read up on the various methods that have been used to dampen their resonances. Getting them bolted to a cabinet is the first important step, but you will also want to damp down the bells in front and the body of the horn behind the flange. I have used some factory-damped 511E's from the late seventies--they are quite another story than your father's 511.

Eventually even Altec developed, for home use, a woofer that would produce very low frequencies in a reasonable sized--and sealed-- enclosure (the 411) , a couple of UHF drivers to use above the horns, though they saw very limited production, and a four-way monitor.

Basically, two-ways using the classic drivers, are not viable by today's standards. JBL has produced some successful two-ways in the past couple of decades, but only by using extraordinary efforts of engineering. Most recently, improvements in compression drivers have made it possible to entertain the prospect of viable two-ways, but that does not mean resurrecting the older equipment and using it in stock form is going to meet with the same success.

Still, the classic Altecs--the 416's and 414's, the 515's, the 802's, the 604's--offer the tantalizing prospect of having relatively simple and dynamic--and not bank-busting--speakers that will do the job, so it's understandable that they remain on the DIY scene.

David

[Docspeakers]

Not trying to make this into a debate, just merely stating that since he already has all these factory Altec components, why not do something with them?? And if he is interested in building an Altec system, why swap in other components, it would be like putting a Ford motor in a Chevy, sure it'll work, but it wouldn't be quite the same..

Yes, undoubtedly, he will learn in time that there are better speakers, as most of us have over the years, but that doesn't mean this person doesn't have the right to try to build something he's interested in.. Its obvious he is "curious" about Altec or otherwise he would not have bought these components in the first place..

I have been observing here for quite sometime and everyone seems to immediately make suggestions on how to upgrade things when people aren't even asking...

He wants to build a cabinet for these speakers, and despite the fact that most of us know that its not the end-all be-all of speaker systems, it will be a lovely starter system and a great introduction to someone interested in what Altec Lansing is all about... Like I said, love it or hate it, and for all that we know he may love it.

I know I sure did for many years, and still enjoy a lot of their stuff still to this day all be it 40-50 years later..

[speakerdave]

Not trying to make this into a debate, just merely stating that since he already has all these factory Altec components, why not do something with them?? And if he is interested in building an Altec system, why swap in other components, it would be like putting a Ford motor in a Chevy, sure it'll work, but it wouldn't be quite the same..

Yes, undoubtedly, he will learn in time that there are better speakers, as most of us have over the years, but that doesn't mean this person doesn't have the right to try to build something he's interested in.. Its obvious he is "curious" about Altec or otherwise he would not have bought these components in the first place..

I have been observing here for quite sometime and everyone seems to immediately make suggestions on how to upgrade things when people aren't even asking...

He wants to build a cabinet for these speakers, and despite the fact that most of us know that its not the end-all be-all of speaker systems, it will be a lovely starter system and a great introduction to someone interested in what Altec Lansing is all about... Like I said, love it or hate it, and for all that we know he may love it.

I know I sure did for many years, and still enjoy a lot of their stuff still to this day all be it 40-50 years later..

I agree. In fact, I thought I was making some of the same points. I'd even have to say I'm still doing the same thing, since I'm hanging onto my 604's and recently acquired some 414's to check out. But I understand the urge to try and help somebody across some obvious pitfalls. Also, I try to pay attention to what really talented people are doing, and back in the seventies when the Mastering Lab used 288-16G's and 511E's for midrange in its big speakers, it topped them off with EV T350's. That's all I'm saying.

David

[Docspeakers]

Its no problem Dave, there is a LOT to learn here,, even for an old guy like me... and I meant no offense to you or anyone by my response...

[00Robin]

So the pretty green ones are the desirable collectible ones? Where can I find the info on these? I keep reading and trying to glean some info,but I just can't seem to get there.

[hjames]

Just so you can see what they look like, you can do an Advanced Search on this site for Altec + Green -

here's a thread showing some pretty green ones ...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17947&highlight=Altec+Green

[speakerdave]

So the pretty green ones are the desirable collectible ones? . . . .

I didn't mean that it was a movement or anything. Don't buy and stash one hundred pairs on my say so. I just like them.

David

[speakerdave]

For anyone starting out with classic Altecs another good resource besides this website and the Great Plains Audio forum is the Sound Practices Archive CD, which is again available on ebay for $29. There is an article in the Summer 1993 issue by Jeff Markwart and John Tucker on "Altec 'Voice of the Theater' Speakers for Hi-Fi." It systematically covers the various issues with the speakers and offers solutions. It was written when Altec was still in business, so one has to read around the statements about what is (was) available from Altec.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SOUND-PRACTICES-MAGAZINE-ARCHIVE-CD_W0QQitemZ330170665740QQihZ014QQcategoryZ3284QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

David

[00Robin]

I didn't mean that it was a movement or anything. Don't buy and stash one hundred pairs on my say so. I just like them.

David

That line was very funny really.

I guess I had that "ooh,ooh" "goody,goody" sound to what I said because thats what I have. A pair of the 604c's in walnut cabinets and they are my babies.It's gotten to the point where I don't want to over play them for fear of someday they'll just quit or something. Then what will I do?
I think I just have this hoarding problem and I don't have a hoarde of these that are perfect. I only have two with the little green boxes, I wish I knew what those are called. I call them the other parts.
I just hoped to know they are pretty darn good to me and they are obviously to some others. Maybe there are brand new ones in boxes of the men who worked there back then in the year I was born and stocked up on them a bit. For hoarders. Like me. Just waiting for 48 years to come out of hiding for hoarding,safely.

[speakerdave]

. . . . It's gotten to the point where I don't want to over play them for fear of someday they'll just quit or something. Then what will I do? . . . .

Reminds me of something I ran across recently on one of the other forums--"tube guilt." It was articulated by a guy with 57 pairs of some rare NOS tube who couldn't be comfortable listening to music for worry about depleting his stock.

Since all really good-sounding stereo gear exists in finite amounts, he, and people with his ailment, for their own well-being, should probably be listening through Zenith Allegro Compact Music Systems. ;)

And by the way, 00Robin, thanks for the spelling correction on collectable/collectible. I checked, and found that the American Heritage dictionary accepts the former as a variant of the latter, so I will relax and let my penchant for it, which I have worried about, fossilize in place.

David

[RKLee]

I agree. In fact, I thought I was making some of the same points. I'd even have to say I'm still doing the same thing, since I'm hanging onto my 604's and recently acquired some 414's to check out. But I understand the urge to try and help somebody across some obvious pitfalls. Also, I try to pay attention to what really talented people are doing, and back in the seventies when the Mastering Lab used 288-16G's and 511E's for midrange in its big speakers, it topped them off with EV T350's. That's all I'm saying.

DavidI agree. Some of the people can make better cabinets than the factory because you can put in extra bracing and make the box a bit bigger than the factory. Many times the factory boxes are a compromise in size, ie too small because many people just don't have the room for a set of big cabinets. Also quite a bit of the cost in factory box is the hand finishing of the veneer, ie hand rubbed oiled walnut, oak etc.

I have a set of tri-amped 414-8Cs, 806/811, and EV T350 super tweeter, all housed in a home built box.

[ssgreg@comcast.]

Thanks for all the tips.