Bart Locanthi's Revenge!

[glen]

On ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-HPM-100-4-Way-Speakers-HPM100-JBL-L-100-Killers_W0QQitemZ120152686298QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14 991QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Bart Locanthi's Revenge! Very Nice! MUST SEE!!! No Res!


Bart Locanthi was a Cal Tech trained engineer who was called upon by JBL management to fill the design void left when company founder James Bullough Lansing unexpectedly died. Starting as a consultant with JBL in the 50’s and eventually ending up as the vice president of engineering, Locanthi had a lot to do with JBL’s tremendous success in that time frame. When JBL was bough-out in the early 70’s, Locanthi disagreed with the direction of the new ownership and left the company. Within a few years Locanthi was hired by Pioneer North America as vice president of development. Locanthi had unprecedented control of every design aspect of Pioneer’s consumer and professional (TAD) speaker departments. With the enormous resources at his hands he created some revolutionary designs, and in-turn made Pioneer/TAD major players in both the consumer and professional markets. The first speaker system Locanthi designed for Pioneer was unquestionably aimed at unseating the world’s most popular speaker system in that day, JBL’s L-100. With the introduction of the HPM-100 in 1977, Pioneer immediately caught the attention of the audiophile community, and more than likely caused JBL to second guess its decision to let Locanthi walk. The HPM-100 did have similarities to JBL’s L-100, although it was a much more refined system and contained revolutionary technology and design concepts. It is a 4-way/4-component system that raised the bar in consumer speaker performance. Even by today’s high-fidelity standards the HPM-100 is a wonderful system. It portrays music extremely clean and clear throughout the entire audibly frequency range. Bass is deep and pleasant-sounding while the mid and high ranges are extremely smooth and revealing. Some of the many features of the HPM-100 include

Heavy Cast Aluminum Frameson all drivers
Oversized magnets for ultra low distortion
Revolutionary High Polymer Molecular Film Super Tweeter produces incredibly clear and crisp high frequencies
Midrange and Tweeter Cones are light weight enough to give sharp response, but rigid enough not to distort
12" woofer has a long throw voice coil and unique carbon fiber blend cone that work to produce the kind of realistic bass you not only hear, but feel
Mid & High Range Adjustment Controls on the front of the speakers have individual adjustments to alter the intensity of the mid and high range frequencies
And Much More!

[SEAWOLF97]

That Pioneer woofer sure looks like my yammy woofer ?

[mikebake]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. The market has spoken on these (vs. JBL) and people aren't buying it.......
I bought a pair 3-4 years ago to see what the hype was about, kept them two weeks and gave them to my nephew to blow up.
And Much More!

[Zilch]

Even by today’s high-fidelity standards the HPM-100 is a wonderful system. Well, no, they are clearly compromised by contemporary standards. Not mirror-imaged, they're a Kabuki festival of phase interference, and the supertweeter is a ruse. One look at the factory response curves tells much of the story. Yes, that's up to 10 dB of "overly bright" spanning three octaves on axis in evidence:

[Ian Mackenzie]

I always thought highly of the big Technics 12 and 15 inch systems that were time aligned. In room response of the big ones were virtually flat to 20 hertz as I recall.

They had killer bass..that made a Tannoy Arden sound wimpy.

[Audiobeer]

Are these your's Glen?

[BMWCCA]

Are these your's Glen?Doubt it. Item location is Arizona. Glen's listed as Pasadena.

[Zilch]

First hit on Google:


So uncommon as to appear virtually magical are those rarefied moments in time when the confluence of imagination, innovation, engineering genius, and composition excellence synergistically unite to create an enduring masterpiece—an opus which, in truth, transcends the lofty dreams, aspirations, and ideals of its gifted composer. Thus was born into the family of authentic audiophiles an incontrovertible classic—the Pioneer HPM-100 Bass Reflex Speaker System.

Sheltered within the luxuriant, furniture-grade, genuine walnut veneered cabinet beats a heart and resides a soul which, when stirred to action, yield among the purest, the truest, the cleanest audio to which ever ear shall be blessed to attend. Regardless of the melodic genre to which one's individual predilections or tempers may tend, the Pioneer HPM-100 Bass Reflex Speaker System will, with an effect nearing perfection, render rapt, nay, spellbound the listener.


http://www.whitebuckpublishing.com/treasure/hpm-100.htm

The "Audiophile reviews" are priceless.

[Wouldn't mind having a pair of the woofers, tho.... :p ]

[Titanium Dome]

First hit on Google:



http://www.whitebuckpublishing.com/treasure/hpm-100.htm

The "Audiophile reviews" are priceless.

[Wouldn't mind having a pair of the woofers, tho.... :p ]

Wow! :confused:

So, HPM stands for "Hyper-Prevaricating Marketing" then?

[Zilch]

“. . . every kind of music sounds just the way music should—true and honest”

“. . . superlative, transparent sound quality"

“. . . beautiful, balanced sound; rich bass that perfectly blends with lush midrange and highs”

“. . . best bass, midrange, and most extraordinary tweeter I have ever heard”

“. . . Super 3D sound stage, uncompromisingly accurate, transparent, and natural.”

“. . . excellent tweeter response—flat and extended”

It's reminiscent of several eMails I received challenging my findings regarding 846 Valencias, and touting the smooth and shimmering extended VHF they reproduce.

When it was all said and done (it isn't, really, yet,) at least one of those very same "critics" has publicly belittled my work as not revealing anything that hasn't been "well known to Altec enthusiasts" for 40 years, a rather transparent attempt at reconciling the conflict in their own perception.

So, when I encounter a situation where opinions about a speaker exhibit such polarization, I ask myself "What's going on here," and the answer is, "Something else." It's not about the speaker or how it sounds, objectively, it is instead about affirming the different meanings individuals ascribe to that.

Peruse again the lay reviews of L100 in this context:

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/jbl/PRD_119733_1594crx.aspx#review0

[Ian Mackenzie]

Great post Zilch!

[JBLRaiser]

It's reminiscent of several eMails I received challenging my findings regarding 846 Valencias, touting the smooth and shimmering extended VHF they reproduce.

When it was all said and done (it isn't, really, yet,) at least one of those very same "critics" has publicly belittled my work as not revealing anything that hasn't been "well known to Altec enthusiasts" for 40 years, a rather transparent attempt at reconciling the conflict in their own perception.

So, when I encounter a situation where opinions about a speaker exhibit such polarization, I ask myself "What's going on here," and the answer is, "Something else." It's not about the speaker or how it sounds, objectively, it is instead about affirming the different meanings individuals ascribe to that.

Peruse again the lay reviews of L100....

of JBL products that we could try firsthand............... without mortgaging the house?:blink:

[mikebake]

Well, no, they are clearly compromised by contemporary standards. Not mirror-imaged, they're a Kabuki festival of phase interference, and the supertweeter is a ruse. One look at the factory response curves tells much of the story. Yes, that's up to 10 dB of "overly bright" spanning three octaves on axis in evidence:
When you edit your posts, please leave the word "suck" in.

[speakerdave]

from Z-man "Locanthi took revenge, upon the buyers, is what . . ."

I don't have any evidence of this, but I have to believe this effect came from Pioneer marketing. It's not difficult to imagine the conversations that resulted in the fourth driver and the sizzle. In other words, for the consumer stuff, Locanthi may not in fact have had the oft-mentioned free hand-of-engineering. His role there could have been to lend credibility to a project originated elsewhere in the company to challenge a successful American product. I could believe he had a free hand in the TAD products. There may have even have been a quid pro quo. From Locanthi's viewpoint at the time, he may have believed he'd seen the end of the JBL he knew. This is just speculation about something that may never be directly knowable, but I prefer to think engineers behave like engineers and marketing does what it does, and I wouldn't lay any resulting crap at Locanthi's feet.

David

[Zilch]

When you edit your posts, please leave the word "suck" in.
:rotfl:


This is just speculation about something that may never be directly knowable, but I prefer to think engineers behave like engineers and marketing does what it does, and I wouldn't lay any resulting crap at Locanthi's feet.
I believe Glen and I are referring to the effective result in retrospect, rather than ascribing any actual vindictive motivation. Locanthi did what he was directed to do, very likely. :yes:

[SEAWOLF97]

I don't have any evidence of this, but I have to believe this effect came from Pioneer marketing. It's not difficult to imagine the conversations that resulted in the fourth driver and the sizzle. David

But that is exactly what Ed May also did at Marantz when he left JBL...his HD77 and HD707 are L100 clones with an added super tweeter making a 4 way..

[speakerdave]

But that is exactly what Ed May also did at Marantz when he left JBL...his HD77 and HD707 are L100 clones with an added super tweeter making a 4 way..

Interesting. Well, who knows what happened at both those places? The question that entertained me was whether marketing in those companies wanted a speaker that was better or one that was worse along the same path as the L100's faults in order to target that segment of the market. My idea was that whatever role engineering played, a four-way is marketable as superior to a three-way just by driver count.

More from my real experience and knowledge, if Locanthi had a "revenge"--that is, a project that would out-JBL JBL--it was the TAD compression drivers, which for the last couple of decades have had clear superiority in the cost-secondary end of the market. Now JBL has embraced a beryllium technology, though somewhat different, as I understand, and one could argue that even after he left the company Locanthi's work still set the direction for JBL.

David

[SEAWOLF97]

Interesting. My idea was that whatver role engineering played, a four-way is marketable as superior to a three-way just by driver count.
David

Understood and I agree , but personally I'm a sucker for 2 ways ( and especially my 1 ways :D)

[Storm]

Understood and I agree , but personally I'm a sucker for 2 ways ( and especially my 1 ways :D)

No more with the OHM :blah::blah::blah::blah:, please. We get the point....everyone should own a pair.

;)

-Storm.

[Storm]

I will kiss and makeup.

Come here and give me a great, big, bear hug!

SMOOCHES, Seawolf97!

;)

No hard feelings, here. I only say things to have fun. Please, everyone -- I am here to have fun, not fight.

-Storm.

[glen]

That Pioneer woofer sure looks like my yammy woofer ?
With it's white cone and pleated/treated surroud I'd say it looks a lot more like a 123A than your Yammy

they're a Kabuki festival of phase interference:blink:

Are these your's Glen?
Nope, just liked the "Bart Locanthi's Revenge!" headline.
Kinda combines my guilty pleasures of speakers and monster movies.

:rotfl:I believe Glen and I are referring to the effective result in retrospect, rather than ascribing any actual vindictive motivation. Locanthi did what he was directed to do, very likely. :yes:


Vengeance wasn't mine sayeth the Glen!
I was just quoting from the ebay auction.

With L100s fetching such high prices for a bookshelf system other manufacturers undoubtably wanted to get a share of that very lucrative market. I'm sure Pioneer and Marantz made very attractive offers to Bart Locanthi and Ed May respectively, very probably with a clear understanding that an L100-competitor would be a major part of their job.

The thing that the manufacturers seemed to miss, but the buyers knew, was that JBL was the real-deal, virtually identical to the 4310/4311/4312 used in the studios. A claim to authenticity they would never be able to match, and so a market they would never make that much of a dent in.

If there was any vengeance in Bart Locanthi's heart he acted on it not in the consumer products, but in the professional arena, and in the best way possible: he designed those Pioneer/TAD drivers to be better than JBL!

[hjames]

Now THIS http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-HPM-100-Speakers-in-Plexi-glass-Boxes_W0QQitemZ180150222606QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1499 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
has got to be the true HPM 100 dream - all shiny shiny and clear!

Not at all like those muddy wood boxes - oh no!

[scott fitlin]

Seller says they sound excellent and are very clear.

I agree with the seller, they are very clear!

:D

[Storm]

FWIW - The original auction for which this thread was started is now an invalid item.

I know the seller, so I wonder why eBay removed it?

;)

-Storm.

[louped garouv]

i knew a few DJs in the early 90s that were building clear plexi boxes for their monitors...

they would also load them up with glow items and fog....


I thought it was pretty neat when i was 16...

[scott fitlin]

FWIW - The original auction for which this thread was started is now an invalid item.

I know the seller, so I wonder why eBay removed it?

;)

-Storm.I just clicked the link, and they came up, still there!

[Storm]

When I click on it, it says invalid item.

;)

-Storm

[scott fitlin]

I just clicked on it, I get it, still here.

My computer is running slow on some sites today, possibly a problem somewhere with Internet Explorer or something?

[louped garouv]

i get an invalid listing...

maybe the page in in your cache memory Scott?

[Storm]

Yep,

I can't even find it using the regular search method.

:hmm:

-Storm

i get an invalid listing...

maybe the page in in your cache memory Scott?

[scott fitlin]

Strange! I clicked again, it came up, I clicked on bid, and the bid page opened up!

[BMWCCA]

2 days and 10 hours left on the auction. Link working fine for me:

Firefox 2.0.0.6 for Macintosh

[Storm]

I am using the same thing, but only for Microsoft.

Can you give another link, then?

Or a link to the sellers' other auctions would be great.

Thanks.

-Storm.

[louped garouv]

maybe an IE thing as suggested earlier?

:biting:

[Storm]

I dont use internet explorer. I use firefox.

;)

-Storm.

maybe an IE thing as suggested earlier?

:biting:

[hjames]

I think you guys are talking around each other.

The Missing ebay ad is the original "HPM 100s in the wooden box" with all the effusive over-the-top text that got this whole thread going.

The ad you can find is the newer Plexiglass HPM 100s ...

have a nice future!

[Storm]

Ding, ding, ding!

That is what I originally said - the original auction that started this thread is now mysteriously gone.

;)

I knew I was not going insane.

-Storm.

I think you guys are talking around each other.

The Missing ebay ad is the original "HPM 100s in the wooden box" with all the effusive over-the-top text that got this whole thread going.

The ad you can find is the newer Plexiglass HPM 100s ...

have a nice future!

[GordonW]

and the supertweeter is a ruse.


It'd be interesting to do a measurement up to 40KHz on these.

Upon looking at the factory response curves, the output above 18KHz seems to be undergoing a "bounce-back" in the upward direction at 20KHz (indicating the possibility of more available bandwidth ABOVE 20KHz, before the ultimate rolloff of the supertweeter).

It may only be that the 1.75" cone tweeter is LOUDER than the rest of the drivers, in the position they measured it.

But, in any case, before trashing the supertweeter as bogus, it'd be helpful to actually HAVE MEASURED ONE IN PERSON... it MIGHT just do as it implies...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Zilch]

I get your point, but are their any positive reviews you could offer of JBL products that we could try firsthand............... without mortgaging the house?:blink:Sure. PS800, 4430, 4435, 4412, 4410, DIY. Generally speaking, the older "Legacy" products can be upgraded or reconfigured. I don't do 43xx, so them I don't know....

[Zilch]

But, in any case, before trashing the supertweeter as bogus, it'd be helpful to actually HAVE MEASURED ONE IN PERSON... it MIGHT just do as it implies.Off-axis response is also shown, and it doesn't appear to do any better, though it's clear that phase anomalies are messing considerably up there.

Seeing as how it's crossed in at 12 kHz, I'd consider it useful if it did something other than roll off between there and 18 kHz, in which context supertweeting between 20 and 40 kHz, if it indeed does, is kinda moot, in my view.

Just a guess, but if there was something super happening up there, they'd have shown it and hyped it for all it was worth.... :yes:

[GordonW]

Just a guess, but if there was something super happening up there, they'd have shown it and hyped it for all it was worth.... :yes:


Measurement facilities that went significantly above 20KHz were rare in the 1970s. It may have been as simple, as the measurement program didn't go higher than that.

As I implied before... it's all unfounded conjecture, until someone measures one above 20KHz. More measurements, less wank... :D

Also, if it's crossed over at 12KHz, the over-output of the 1.75" cone COULD still be making significant output up to 17KHz. Crossovers aren't infinite slope...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Titanium Dome]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-HPM-100-4-Way-Hi-Fidelity-Loud-Speakers-HPM100_W0QQitemZ120153544920QQihZ002QQcategoryZ149 91QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[SEAWOLF97]

from the ebay auction: During the early 70’s, Pioneer’s audio components received wide acceptance among the world’s audio enthusiasts, although their speakers were always considered inferior to the products of the large American corporations such as JBL, and Altec.

My first speakers were Pioneer CS-77a's (still have them in storage)..... they were all I could afford even when purchased through the PX...I knew they were not the "greatest speakers in the world" , but the sound was acceptable and the cabinetry was nice....IMHO the military PX system was the major player keeping Pioneer afloat in the 1960's (and Sansui too) ...without those plum contracts , I don't think they would have survived. Many GI's spent long lonely days pouring through those PX color catalogs that were everywhere...talk about a captive audience !!

Pioneer receivers of that era were far superior to their speakers. The speakers were very well constructed, but rather flat (limited HF and LF).
We always considered ..."buy your electronics Japanese and speakers USA", and as I remember, Advents were a bigger seller than JBL.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Well most of the Japanese consumer level speakers were like that (the response) anyways.

There was a lot of innovative marketing that happening out of Japan at the time hence my comment about the big Technics time aligned system. Pioneer, Sharp, Onkyo, Sansui and many others where all out to capture the bookshelf market.

As I recall I never liked any of them (except the big Technics). The Maggies, RTR's, EPI and Crown electrostatics and AR's were what I thought was real hifi apart from the big JBL's at the time. Most of UK stuff was just too bloody inefficient to sound realistic.

The whole 4310/ L100 thing was a series of events that just worked out for JBL in terms of sales which is why we see so many of them floating around on Ebay. Outside the USA (read) most of the market had no desire or room in their homes for the larger JBL systems. My take on this is that Bart Locanthi was Pioneers attempt at gaining some credibility in the bookshelf hifi loudspeaker market.

I take the response tests with a grain of salt. The transient impulse performance of the little uhf driver was what mattered. The same applies to equalising the older compression drivers (not the very light weight Be diaphragm drivers). Some people just love reading response curves I guess.

Unless the diaphragm is light and rigid enough you just can't get it to stop and start quickly and sound accurate at those upper frequencies.

No doubt the voicing was worlds apart from what was available in the UK and the USA.

People must be getting hard up to be insisting those sort of prices on Ebay for this system.

[Audiobeer]

I think you guys are talking around each other.

The Missing ebay ad is the original "HPM 100s in the wooden box" with all the effusive over-the-top text that got this whole thread going.

The ad you can find is the newer Plexiglass HPM 100s ...

have a nice future!

The original pair in question is back but the title has been changed as well as the text.

[hjames]

The original pair in question is back but the title has been changed as well as the text.

maybe Bart's ghost (or heirs) complained about that original text?


Interesting byline on the AES obit ...
http://www.aracnet.com/~bart/bnl2/aesobit.html (http://www.aracnet.com/%7Ebart/bnl2/aesobit.html)

[Zilch]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-HPM-100-4-Way-Hi-Fidelity-Loud-Speakers-HPM100_W0QQitemZ120153544920QQihZ002QQcategoryZ149 91QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemThere's the curves I posted as factory documents stapled to the speakers themselves; I didn't fabricate them, after all. :)

Measurement facilities that went significantly above 20KHz were rare in the 1970s. It may have been as simple, as the measurement program didn't go higher than that.Well, I can't measure much over 20 kHz, either, so there's no point in me scrounging up a pair to do it. :no:

As I implied before... it's all unfounded conjecture, until someone measures one above 20KHz. More measurements, less wank... :DY'all want to make-believe what's up there, that's fine. It'd be a real boon to discover that these 30-year-old vintage speakers are SACD-compatible, yup. :yes:

Also, if it's crossed over at 12KHz, the over-output of the 1.75" cone COULD still be making significant output up to 17KHz. Crossovers aren't infinite slope.... Yeah, the tweeter's helping the supertweeter roll of, apparently. :p

Some people just love reading response curves I guess.We'll discuss that fetish more in person in a mere few days, of course. :D

People must be getting hard up to be insisting those sort of prices on Ebay for this system.So, they suck for other reasons, or they should be worth many times more than that? ;)