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View Full Version : eBay Aftermarket Recone kits caveat.



edgewound
08-07-2007, 03:58 PM
Can anyone tell me what's incorrect in this eBay Aftermarket recone kit listing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7410157608&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=280139272892&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

There is key mis-information in this listing.

What is it?

I know at least a few members will know.

speakerdave
08-07-2007, 04:05 PM
Can anyone tell me what's incorrect in this eBay Aftermarket recone kit listing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7410157608&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=280139272892&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

There is key mis-information in this listing.

What is it?

I know at least a few members will know.

This is not entirely correct:

"The frame of the 2205, 2135, 2220, 2225, 2231A, 2235, D130, D140, E130, E140, K130, K140, LE15A and LE15B are all the same size.
This means that you can recone anyone these frames to be a JBL D140 base speaker."

The 2220 and LE15 frames/motors are different.

David

edgewound
08-07-2007, 04:11 PM
Very nice, David.

The same mis-info that is all too common when reconing JBL drivers.

...but they won't admit it's wrong...it just might sell more kits to the unknowing....because it still "works".

yggdrasil
08-07-2007, 04:12 PM
I'll give it a try:



The frame of the 2205, 2135, 2220, 2225, 2231A, 2235, D130, D140, E130, E140, K130, K140, LE15A and LE15B are all the same size.
This means that you can recone anyone these frames to be a JBL D140 base speaker.



From the back of my memory - the 2220 is special. The pro's (2205, 2135, 2225, 2231, 2235) have different motors from the D, E and K series.

A good reference can be found here: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Goes%20Into%20List/Goes%20Into%20List.pdf

yggdrasil
08-07-2007, 04:13 PM
Damn - too late... :D

Robh3606
08-07-2007, 04:13 PM
The 2235 and E140 are not the same either


Our kits are manufactured by us in the U.S.A. using a jig / fixture that puts the edge wound voice coil, spider and cone to the proper depth every time.

I don't think so. Not on all those frames.

Rob:)

edgewound
08-07-2007, 04:23 PM
The LE15A/B, and 2220 are not mechanically interchangeable with the other frames listed.

This is especially important when advertising the advantages of a preassembled kit....namely voice coil position in the gap!

The 2235 and E140/E130 are mechanically interchangeable and listed as so in the JBL Manual. The bigger E-Series magnet will slightly alter the stock response of a 2235 installed kit....but the voice coil is in the correct position.

subwoof
08-07-2007, 04:34 PM
In order of increasing depth:

2225 / DKE
2220 / 2245 ( 18" )
E145 / LE15

Now if you want deep, look at the LE8..:)

So one kit fits all huh??

:o)

edgewound
08-07-2007, 04:42 PM
In order of increasing depth:

2225 / DKE
2220 / 2245 ( 18" )
E145 / LE15

Now if you want deep, look at the LE8..:)

So one kit fits all huh??

:o)

The E155 is also the same as 2240/2245

subwoof
08-07-2007, 06:38 PM
I have (4) E155's reconed as 2245's. They are boatloads cheaper to buy due to the foilcal..:o)

sub ( and I don't mean way )

GordonW
08-08-2007, 06:27 AM
There's also another more subtle error. He advertises it as a D140 kit... but has a 2225H type cone in the picture. D140 is NOT "rough-pulp" on the rear of the cone, nor does it have an M-roll surround (should be standard shallow accordion pleats).

This is despite the fact, that decent aftermarket CORRECT-format D140 cones ARE available. You just have to know where to get them. It's not hard, if you're in the reconing business...

Regards,
Gordon.

edgewound
08-08-2007, 12:15 PM
There is no "CORRECT-format" aftermarket recone kit for a D140.

That's because the correct recone kit for a D140 is C*RE140 from JBL.

It's better in every way.

goff
10-31-2007, 08:50 AM
Can an 8 ohm 2225 be reconed to 16 ohms?

edgewound
10-31-2007, 10:22 AM
Can an 8 ohm 2225 be reconed to 16 ohms?

Yes.

Factory Recone kit is C16R2225. $146.00 installed plus tax.

Thom
10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
There is no "CORRECT-format" aftermarket recone kit for a D140.

That's because the correct recone kit for a D140 is C*RE140 from JBL.

It's better in every way.

While I'm not aware of a correct aftermarket kit, to just blanket make this statement is more religion than fact. You can say that every kit you have experienced is incorrect, if that is the case, and express your doubt as to others, but you can't factually know that every aftermarket kit in the world is wrong. It is possible that they are, but you can't know it. What you have expressed is a religious conviction.

edgewound
10-31-2007, 02:22 PM
While I'm not aware of a correct aftermarket kit, to just blanket make this statement is more religion than fact. You can say that every kit you have experienced is incorrect, if that is the case, and express your doubt as to others, but you can't factually know that every aftermarket kit in the world is wrong. It is possible that they are, but you can't know it. What you have expressed is a religious conviction.

Let's make it easy here, Thom...o.k.?

I'm not opposed to reconing a JBL driver with aftermarket parts when factory parts are NLA. But the parts...especially voice coils... aren't always as good as the originals, especially when it comes to DC resistance, material choice, and the construction techniques that JBL uses to make a more reliable voice coil. I know this from experience....you don't.

The only recone kits available that are designed to be up to JBL Factory specs are from the JBL factory...period.

The assemblies are put together on factory tolerance jigs assembled with factory tolerences to give factory designed performance.

The thing that gripes you is that you can't buy factory recone kits directly and do the work yourself.

Fact is...it's cheap insurance to have it done right with a factory recone kit.

And BTW....every aftermarket reconed JBL driver...period....that has come through my shop in the last 19 years has been an inferior performer....period.

Don't try and tell me that that's religion....it's more than that...

It's the God's honest truth.

Have fun being a burr under the saddle. Happy Halloween.

Earl K
10-31-2007, 02:34 PM
snip,,,,,,but you can't factually know that every aftermarket kit in the world is wrong.

- True enough, but then , I've never seen anyone who's selling aftermarket kits actually provide anything near enough proof that their kits perform up to JBL spec. ( superficial things such as "looks-like ", don't count here ).

- Only rigorous test-results showing ; FR, TS parameters & CSD plots would come close to convincing me otherwise.
- But, I can assure you Thom, the aftermarket crowd is not going to go to these lengths ( only to prove ) their product is not up to JBL spec. ( they play a T. Barnum Bailey game seducing/suckering in the "what-if ? crowd " { who just don't know better } , to do their dirty PR work for them ) .

- We ( LHF ) have a member here who vigorously swore that his reconers' 2235H aftermarket kits were excellent ( as good as originals ) / though that position changed 180 / after he took the challenge and bought himself Woofer Tester II and found out for himself.


It is possible that they are, but you can't know it. What you have expressed is a religious conviction.

It's a matter of faith that I'm willing to abide by / at least until some aftermarket dude presents enough pertinant "facts", to convince me that my position is wrong .


:)

4313B
10-31-2007, 03:10 PM
The thing that gripes you is that you can't buy factory recone kits directly and do the work yourself.From what I've seen on this forum, some of the members have no business owning JBL's anyway because they flat out can't afford to maintain them. To be honest, I have no clue why they're even here. My only guess is because this site is free...

***

I was just reminded that some come here right after finding a pair of JBL's at the curb or at the GW and they run home, Google and end up here... it's kind of like winning the million dollar lottery and buying a million dollar house, they soon discover that they can't afford the property taxes and have to move back out.

And BTW....every aftermarket reconed JBL driver...period....that has come through my shop in the last 19 years has been an inferior performer....period.I just did four 2235H's that looked like one of those quick and dirty jackasses got hold of them. All four sported aftermarket kits with copious amounts of glue spooged all over the place. There are definitely different classes of people out there...

Audiobeer
10-31-2007, 04:48 PM
Now this is entertainment I can afford! :)

jblwolf
10-31-2007, 08:05 PM
:barf:OH THE PAIN-quote-DR.Smith-LOST IN SPACE:biting::biting:I'm so thankful I got my many different models/drivers of JBL's-s o o long ago,nothing but the real thing-baby:applaud::applaud::applaud:Well I also own a pair of CLASSICREPO"S HEARTSFIELDS with old JBL/TRUSONIC drivers,they pretty nice too-Cheers:p

Thom
11-01-2007, 05:34 AM
Let's make it easy here, Thom...o.k.?

I'm not opposed to reconing a JBL driver with aftermarket parts when factory parts are NLA. But the parts...especially voice coils... aren't always as good as the originals, especially when it comes to DC resistance, material choice, and the construction techniques that JBL uses to make a more reliable voice coil. I know this from experience....you don't.

The only recone kits available that are designed to be up to JBL Factory specs are from the JBL factory...period.

The assemblies are put together on factory tolerance jigs assembled with factory tolerences to give factory designed performance.

The thing that gripes you is that you can't buy factory recone kits directly and do the work yourself.

Fact is...it's cheap insurance to have it done right with a factory recone kit.

And BTW....every aftermarket reconed JBL driver...period....that has come through my shop in the last 19 years has been an inferior performer....period.

Don't try and tell me that that's religion....it's more than that...

It's the God's honest truth.

Have fun being a burr under the saddle. Happy Halloween.

I'm not griped. I don't think I own any drivers with after market parts. Some people pay extra for hemp parts. Factory parts of just a few years ago were not set up and glued at the factory. Factory kits may very well be superior to everything else I just think it is a dangerous statement without more research than I believe most people have done. I generally stay away from every and none statements. I also don't think that every driver is best original. If it were why would JBL have continually come out with new designs?

4313B
11-01-2007, 06:08 AM
:blink:

edgewound
11-01-2007, 07:36 AM
ditto

jbl_man_uk
11-01-2007, 08:00 AM
Just to add my 2 cents....recently removed a couple of K140 `s from a stage monitor that had aftermarket recones fitted (ribbed cones,black dust caps)...they sounded truly awful...weak,thin and lacking in any punch....it might as well have been an Eminence driver, it sounded so naff.:barf:

4313B
11-01-2007, 08:03 AM
they sounded truly awful...Thanks to the Internet, I'm discovering that alot of people really like that sound. :rotfl:

subwoof
11-01-2007, 08:52 AM
it like goes to 11 man....totally crunchy.

GordonW
11-01-2007, 10:38 AM
When I can take an aftermarket kit (say, 2235H) and TEST the resultant speaker on LEAP/LMS, and have all the parameters come to WITHIN FIVE PERCENT of factory specs, I'll go on a limb and say that the aftermarket kits are good enough, if the CORRECT combination of parts are built up in the PROPER manner.

In fact, I had MORE parameter variation in FACTORY RECONED 2235s, 127Hs, 128Hs, 122As and others, than with a properly-assembled aftermarket kit. Like up to TEN PERCENT variation in parameters. Sure, this is "acceptable" to pretty much any driver supplier out there... but it certainly doesn't lend itself to the "factory only, nobody else" mantra, in any realistic sense. Also, the variations in upper-frequency response curves is AS GREAT in the factory kits (and original OEM drivers) as with the aftermarket (again, properly assembled) units.

I'm getting pretty tired of all reconers that use aftermarket parts, being all lumped into the same "incompetent" box, by some people. When you have to FIX the SCREW UPS of the SO CALLED FACTORY AUTHORIZED reconer in your area, you start to get a different perspective, altogether...


In short... enough of this, already. :banghead:

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW
11-01-2007, 10:43 AM
Just to add my 2 cents....recently removed a couple of K140 `s from a stage monitor that had aftermarket recones fitted (ribbed cones,black dust caps)...they sounded truly awful...weak,thin and lacking in any punch....it might as well have been an Eminence driver, it sounded so naff.:barf:

Funny that... I just custom-built a set of 4 drivers, using JBL M115-8 frames, and Eminence cones, spiders and dustcaps (with JBL-type edge-wound coils, however).

Measured FAR BETTER than the factory cones. Far less "lumpier" high-frequency response, on and off axis. Better midbass punch, better low-end extension too.

Made great woofers for the Seeburg retro-mod project. In fact, after hearing the first ones, I got TWO OTHER people who want to DUPLICATE the whole project... and have gone out and found MORE SETS of the cabinets...


Some of us DO know what we're doing...

Regards,
Gordon.

4313B
11-01-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm getting pretty tired of all reconers that use aftermarket parts, being all lumped into the same "incompetent" box, by some people. When you have to FIX the SCREW UPS of the SO CALLED FACTORY AUTHORIZED reconer in your area, you start to get a different perspective, altogether... Valid point taken. The title "Factory Authorized" doesn't mean one is going to end up with "good as new". They are supposed to but we all know that isn't always what actually happens. And we all seem to have a different definition of "good enough".

Some of us DO know what we're doing...Understood.

Funny that... I just custom-built a set of 4 drivers, using JBL M115-8 frames, and Eminence cones, spiders and dustcaps (with JBL-type edge-wound coils, however).

Measured FAR BETTER than the factory cones. Far less "lumpier" high-frequency response, on and off axis. Better midbass punch, better low-end extension too.

Made great woofers for the Seeburg retro-mod project. In fact, after hearing the first ones, I got TWO OTHER people who want to DUPLICATE the whole project... and have gone out and found MORE SETS of the cabinets...Alot of people try alot of stuff in the field and swear by it. Sometimes a company will take notice and incorporate the hybrid in a new design of their own.

edgewound
11-01-2007, 11:32 AM
Hey Gordon....

Nobody pointed you out specifically....did they?

Like any other service professional...factory authorized or not...including many medical professionals...some care alot about what they do for their customers, and some, unfortunately don't. Many more, it seems, that used to be, don't care much about good quality anymore.

When it comes to OEM parts, the chances of known performance expectations have a wonderfully high probability ratio as long as the parts are not defective....which sometimes happens.

There are car tuners everywhere that can make a car go faster, corner flatter, etc...but that in itself takes research, time and money.

I'm confident that can do what you say you can do, but that takes a level of knowledge and commitment that many don't have, and it shows in their work....as you've no doubt seen, as have I.

So...I'm fighting for keeping the Lansing Heritage alive by restoring with the "correct" parts as they come from the factory. Until I see otherwise better performance from the aftermarket, I'll stick with OEM...and the factory warranty.

Keep up the good fight, Gordon.;)

4313B
11-01-2007, 11:34 AM
So...I'm fighting for keeping the Lansing Heritage alive by restoring with the "correct" parts as they come from the factory. Until I see otherwise better performance from the aftermarket, I'll stick with OEM...and the factory warranty.That's pretty much in line with this particular website. :)

robertbartsch
10-27-2008, 09:59 AM
These debates can get rather intense!

Question: Since the labor charge for reconing is presumably the same, what are the typical cost savings from using a non-factory (aftermarket) recone kit for say, a JBL 2225H - 15 inch transducer, for example?

I'm guessing that the cost savings is within a range of $50 - $100; right?

4313B
10-27-2008, 10:09 AM
15" JBL 136A, 136H, 136 $204
15" JBL 136A, 136H, 136 Aftermarket $125
15" JBL 2231A, 2231H, 2231 $204
15" JBL 2231A, 2231H, 2231 Aftermarket $125
15" JBL 2234A, 2234H $204
15" JBL 2234A, 2234H Aftermarket $125
15" JBL 2235H, 2235 $204
15" JBL 2235H, 2235 Aftermarket $125

http://www.speakerrepair.com/ocsrepairprice.html

Doc Mark
10-28-2008, 08:48 AM
Greetings,

Thought I'd toss in my two cents, here, just for grins. As written previously, yesterday I got to meet Edgewound at his shop, when I dropped off my 128H's and 2242H. He is a knowledgeable Guy, and we enjoyed a bit of time just chewing the fat on a variety of subjects. In one such conversation, he SHOWED me why many JBL voice coils are better than after market. What he illustrated made perfect sense, but as much as I love my JBL's, I'd never heard, nor seen anything like that before. I feel confident that Ken will do a fantastic job on refoaming my 128H's, and also replacing the dust cap on my 2242H. Now, could I have ordered aftermarket stuff and done this work myself? Absolutely! However, as all of these drivers are going to be used in systems that will be special to me, I chose to go with a true, experienced, and knowledgeable PROFESSIONAL, from whom I am confident that I'll get the best result available!!

Yes, doing this does cost a bit of coin, but whatever the charge, it beats the alternatives, HANDS DOWN! Some places, even JBL Authorized Service Centers, can be very "hit or miss" in the work they do, as I found out quite a few years ago. Back then, I needed my original 2235H's refoamed, and also a few other drivers. In my original sub/sat system, the 6 1/2" Peerless polypropylene drivers needed refoaming, and so did the Eminence 12" DVC subwoofer. Additionally, I also had a pair of LE10A's, and a pair of 116H's, that needed reconing. I took all these drivers to "another" JBL Authorized Service Center, a bit to the South of Edgewound's place, as I'd heard they had a good reputation. Well, here's how it worked out:

- The 2235H's came out perfectly, with fit and finish, and performance, all being what I had hoped they would be.

- The 6 1/2" Peerless looked like pure shite, with clear silicone sealer all over the place! Though they worked OK, and continue to do so, I was VERY disappointed in the piss-poor quality control in the job done on these drivers!

- The Eminence 12" was done in a competant manner, with clean edges all around. We used it for a good many years, and now it's pretty much used up and tired. Would I use such a driver in such a subwoofer again? Nope!

- The 116H's looked good, but I soon found out that this place had NOT used JBL replacement cones for the job they did. Unfortunately, the reconed speakers did not last that long, and within a few years, one of them began making scratchy noises, which I at first attributed to the crossover. Nope. Turns out that this aftermarket VC has truly gone South. These 116H's were used in a pair of JBL 4408's, as satellite speakers, and NEVER had to reproduce anything below 90HZ! Crossed over electronically from the start, these things should have been loafing along, and should have lasted for a good many years!! Unfortunately, they did not. That's a huge strike against the aftermarket cones, as far as I'm concerned!!

- The LE10A's were also reconed with aftermarket cones, unfortunately. And, to make it worse, whomever did the job let a screwdriver get sucked out of his hand, and through one of the cones!! :blink::blink: Rather than suck it up, as the mistake was THEIR's, they just coated both cones with some sort of crap, which looks for all the world, like just plain old silicone sealer, and told me it would be OK. Hummmmm.....! Well, I've never used those LE10A's for anything, and they still set down in the Hobbit Hole, waiting for me to love them. Can't seem to generate much interest in them, however. But someday, I may take them to Ken and see what he can do with them. Even if JBL kits are not available for this woofer, and aftermarket kits have to be used, I feel confident that Ken will do a much better job than the "other" JBL Authorized Service Center.

What's the lesson learned here?

First, and most easily said, stick with true professionals, who know what they are about, when it comes to reconing your beloved speakers! Unless there is NO other option, I will NEVER be suckered into using aftermarket cones again, no matter WHAT anyone says!! JBL parts, period, unless there are simply none available.

Second, not all JBL Authorized Service Centers are the same, and judging from my personal experience with that place "down South of Ken's", what you get back will most definitely depend on who did the work! This place very obviously had some folks working there that had NO business doing such work in the first place, and the establishment in question also took the easy way out when they did damage to my job, and talked me into accepting it. If they had been reputable, they would have not used aftermarket cones in the first place, without making damned sure that I understood that they were doing so, and in the second place, when THEY damaged their own work, they would have eaten the loss, and redone the job, PERIOD!

Last, when I was checking around to see how much it would cost me to have my current JBL work done, I actually did check the web page of the establishment in question, as well as several other places. Their prices were a bit less then those of Edgewound. Did this, for even one second, give me pause and lead me to consider letting them do more work for me? NOT FOR ONE SINGLE SECOND, FOLKS!!! After having talked with Ken several times on the phone, previously, I already knew he would do a superior job with what I needed done. It is ABSOLUTELY worth paying a little bit more, to have important work done by a real, honest, and competant professional!! No question about it, as far as I'm concerned!! I am confident that my JBL transducers will be returned to me in perfect working order, with the work done in a clean and tidy manner. The "other establishment" has lost my business forever!! Money is hard to earn, and as far as I'm concerned, I'll spend my money at places that have EARNED my business, not at places where quality, and it appears, honesty, is a hit or miss proposition!!! Thanks for reading my thoughts (rant!) on this. As you can see, this is a very important topic for me, and I have deep feelings about it, based on personal experience! Long live the true professionals, and long may we continue to be able to score OEM JBL parts for our beloved transducers!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

4313B
10-28-2008, 10:09 AM
Yeah, we've been over this a whole bunch of times since 2001 with the same basic results.

People will still do whatever it is that they do. :rotfl:

Doc Mark
10-28-2008, 10:25 AM
Yeah, we've been over this a whole bunch of times since 2001 with the same basic results.

People will still do whatever it is that they do. :rotfl:

Patient: "Doc, it hurts like hell when I do this"!

Doc: "Well then, dumbass, don't DO that"!!:rotfl::screwy:

Doc

4313B
10-28-2008, 12:30 PM
Patient: "Doc, it hurts like hell when I do this"!
Well, you're not supposed to try and stick your entire head in there... it will hurt...

toddalin
10-28-2008, 03:34 PM
Let's be honest here. It is my understanding that at this point in time JBL doesn't make the cones, whether marketed as JBL or not.

In other words, they are ALL aftermarket cones. The difference is that some are authorized by JBL because they, presumably, are made to JBL specs and tolerances and have received JBL's blessing. Others may or may not be up to these specs and/or tolerances.

4313B
10-28-2008, 03:43 PM
Let's be honest here. It is my understanding that at this point in time JBL doesn't make the cones, whether marketed as JBL or not.I don't think anyone is being dishonest. JBL has sourced the cones for at least 35 years that I know of. Hawley, Mogami, as well as a bunch of others that couldn't make the grade.
In other words, they are ALL aftermarket cones.Most of them are O.E.M. I suppose you could argue that the latest kits for drivers such as the 112/2108 are "aftermarket" since JBL is no longer able to source the O.E.M. cone but whatever. If they were ALL aftermarket cones then JBL would still offer kits like the 124/2203 and LE5-9/LE5-11.