Pro Critical Remarks on the 4430 and 4435

[mech986]

I remember finding this remark about the 4430 and 4435 during a google search a while back and now have stumbled on the original source (a pro audio / studio discussion forum). Here's the quote:

"the 4430/4435 (bum monitor)was regarded by most as JBL's darkest days...where else ya gonna find a 2234 ?? 4343's were very cool...sometimes the woofs fell apart or burned up (2231)...but when bi-amped with the 5234 and the special cards...sounded quite good...but the ears didnt know much better then.."

I know we're a bit biased here but what were people saying about the 4430 / 4435 back when they were first introduced and put into studios? Because they were based on the new CD concept, was it hard for people to use them correctly or get the right studio acoustics?

Could it have been the titanium tweeters? The Dolly Parton horns?
Seeing as many big monitors are now based on twin woofer designs
there must have been something to it. Also, since they remained in production for almost 20 years, many other engineers and studios must have felt they were pretty good.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Thanks.

Regards,

Bart

[Robh3606]

Hello Bart

Just a thought but why are you concerned about what was written in some article?? The internet is full of references like that where it's some guys opinion. Maybe in his circle of friends that was true. What matters is your own personal experience. Even opinions on this board should be carefully considered based on some real sit down time together if your lucky enough to get it.

Rob:)

[mech986]

Here's a couple more, interestingly from another person who likes some but not others of the 44xx series:

"The 4412A has less low end extension than the similar 4410A. This is because the cabinet is the same size and is suited for a 10" driver. The crossovers use junk, electrolytic caps from Mexico, sand resistors and iron inductors for the mids and lows. The drivers are very good although one wouldn't know it listening through that crossover.

I use the 4408A'a with a 15" subwoofer. The tweeters are very smooth and detailed, not harsh at all with very high quality crossover components like Mills resistors, MIT and InfiniCap film caps, Alpha copper foil inductors, etc. Turns out I spent about as much as the speakers on this stuff but the results are stunning. Keep your Adams, Genelecs, I love these JBL's because I hear everything. $360 in parts and these are very high end speakers now."

"I have redone several pairs of the 15" 2 way 4430/5 with the bi-radial horn. These also have no depth in the bass, even the ones with 2 15" drivers. The cabinet is thin, the crossovers roll off the deep lows to protect the drivers, it's a mess. The crossover mods don't help extend the low end if the cabinet design doesn't let the lows out. That's why I like the 4410A over the 4412A."

Bart

[mech986]

Some who love them:

I love my 4430s http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/thumb.gif they are easy to mix and track with, also no hype... very flat response. I run them by amped so i dont go through there (sic) crossover.

Also have a 15" JBL sub running with them in my new room http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/thumb.gif http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/smash.gif

I have a pair of the LSR6328s in the same room and when compared to the 4430s they sound thin with no mids and of course not much bass just harsh high end.

If i remember right...... the 4435 had 2 15" drivers and only one of them was hooked up.

I wouldn't mind having my 4412s back.......... even though i only used them for checking mixes they still had there place"

Bart

[mech986]

More detail about the crossover mods to 4435 posted:


"Those 4435's has one of the 15" tuned as a midrange driver, there's no low end coming out of it. Even with the switch in the external position, the 4430's still run through crappy crossover mylar caps, sand resistors and coils.

On the woofer, you run through C5 = 16 uf,C6=bypass .01 uf and a 7.5 ohm sand resistor all shunted to ground. Remove these parts or wire around them for true bi-amplifacation.

On the horn you still run through C7, a 20 uf mylar "safety" cap with a .01 uf bypass cap. Then you get to the mid pot and filter including C9 = 2 uf and L1, a .04 uh inductor. The highs run through another pot and are attenuatted by a 20 ohm sand resistor.

As one can see, there is still a lot of crap in there when JBL would lead you to think it's a pure path to the drivers in external crossover mode when it's not. Replace these caps with the MIT's for the lows and the Wonder InfiniCaps for the highs along with Mills wirewound resistors and Alpha or Solo air foil coils."

No clue as to how it really sounds but could be intriguing to check it out. Zilch, any ideas?

Bart

[mech986]

Hello Bart

Just a thought but why are you concerned about what was written in some article?? The internet is full of references like that where it's some guys opinion. Maybe in his circle of friends that was true. What matters is your own personal experience. Even opinions on this board should be carefully considered based on some real sit down time together if your lucky enough to get it.

Rob:)

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your reply. I was just trying to get some perspective on how this particular series was received and used by some of the folks in that era. As a fan of the Studio Monitor series and not having much luck in finding any of the 4-way systems (434x or 435x), I think many of us look to the 433x and 44xx series as being more accessible or even usable in a home environment.

I agree with you that a lot of opinion is stated on the internet and can be interpreted as fact by some. With regards to speakers, there's so much also to be due to the room/studios where these speakers were used and associated equipment.

Regards,

Bart

[Mr. Widget]

...the crossovers roll off the deep lows to protect the drivers...

"Those 4435's has one of the 15" tuned as a midrange driver, there's no low end coming out of it.

I love my 4430s... I run them by amped so i dont go through there (sic) crossover.Rob is right. There are plenty of opinions on the internet... hell, there are plenty of opinions in audioland in general... look at speaker cables and interconnects... look at tubes vs. transistors... look at cones vs. horns... and on and on.

The three quotes above are all stating "facts" about the 4430/35s that are flat out incorrect. That said, I would agree with many of their criticisms of these speakers. Just one more opinion on the internet. :D


Widget

[Zilch]

I have built the crossovers from scratch, using all of the "right" components, and also a charge-coupled set. If we hooked them up for A/B listening evaluations, I think it'd be hard to tell any difference.

Widget highlights what I saw when reading that stuff: technically, they don't know what they're talking about. It seems none of them understand the HF contouring enough to even mention the purpose of the very components they're criticizing. They're making it up, and that certainly speaks to their "expertise." There's a good reason those components remain in place for biamping. SEVERAL good reasons, actually.

As others have observed, it's internet opinion, and the only qualification is the ability to punch a keyboard. In contrast, there's plenty of FACT to be found in the literature and white papers, and fact is, 4425/30/35 implement a decidedly different monitor design approach than 43xx, and those differences are well documented. The CD Biradial horns generate a listening environment unlike any many users may have ever experienced.

All change is perceived as loss, and when not understood, sometimes the only option is to criticize, even if you have to make stuff up out of ignorance. It's clear those "reviewers" don't understand it; they don't even mention the fundamentals which distinguish the design. As "Pros," it's their JOB to understand the equipment they use, and judging from the exerpts, these guys fail that test. That's not to say they would like them any better if they DID understand, but at least they'd be able to put forth a rational, informed critique.... :dont-know

[mech986]

Hi Widget and Zilch,

Thanks for your input and comments. Reason I was interested is that many of the commenters were studio engineers or board operators who had experience with those speakers then and now and also have some level of longevity/experience which frames their comments. Of course, personal preferences, control room/studio acoustics have such a huge impact on their subjective perception, its not easy to make even general comments.

However, just because they work the board or listen to them a lot doesn't mean you REALLY are an expert about their design or implementation?

Love the discussion though and welcome it.

Regards,

Bart

[Zilch]

Reason I was interested is that many of the commenters were studio engineers or board operators who had experience with those speakers then and now and also have some level of longevity/experience which frames their comments.Are they still rattling about JBL Be?

JBL made an extraordinary effort to set that straight....

[BMWCCA]

Here's a couple more, interestingly from another person who likes some but not others of the 44xx series:

"The 4412A has less low end extension than the similar 4410A. This is because the cabinet is the same size and is suited for a 10" driver. The crossovers use junk, electrolytic caps from Mexico, sand resistors and iron inductors for the mids and lows. The drivers are very good although one wouldn't know it listening through that crossover.Yeah, but that same thread also had this measured response with data to back it up:

We have a pair of 4412As here and find them quite good. As regards the frequency profile, tests with the pink noise gen and spectrum analyser in our control room show them to be pretty flat throughout the critical listening area - we're not seeing (or hearing) the smiley face curve that steve experienced. Slight dip (of the order of 2db) in the vicinity of 1k is all. As per the analyser, we're getting low end smooth down to 30hz and below before roll-off.

Obviously the above results reflect both the room and the speakers, so in a different space they may produce a less satisfactory result. But there is no harsh or splashy high end nor boomy lows here.And then, after the original complainer swapped amps and found he actually liked the 4412As, the first critic wrote:
I can't tell you how many times this has happened. One thinks a speaker sounds poor and then they find out the power amp isn't helping. One should give speakers an honest eval with a great power amp to remove that variable from the listening session.
:)

[Guido]

"I have redone several pairs of the 15" 2 way 4430/5 with the bi-radial horn. These also have no depth in the bass, even the ones with 2 15" drivers. The cabinet is thin, the crossovers roll off the deep lows to protect the drivers, it's a mess. The crossover mods don't help extend the low end if the cabinet design doesn't let the lows out.
Bart

I love this :D.
While writing this I'm listening to the dramatic low end of my 4435.
The cabinet halfs of the 4435 are tuned tooo low, yes. But both together they sum up to a perfect low end. That's part of the design. One just need to understand it.
:barf:

[Guido]

If i remember right...... the 4435 had 2 15" drivers and only one of them was hooked up.


This is the best :banghead:

Always a spare.....

[JBLRaiser]

Rob is right. There are plenty of opinions on the internet... hell, there are plenty of opinions in audioland in general... look at speaker cables and interconnects... look at tubes vs. transistors... look at cones vs. horns... and on and on.

The three quotes above are all stating "facts" about the 4430/35s that are flat out incorrect. That said, I would agree with many of their criticisms of these speakers. Just one more opinion on the internet. :D


Widget

What criticisms would you agree with and the remedy, if reasonably accomplished?

[Mr. Widget]

What criticisms would you agree with and the remedy, if reasonably accomplished?I am not sure that any good could come from this discussion in detail. There are sonic characteristics of these speakers that I simply don't care for. The remedy would be significant enough that they would be unrecognizable as 44XX systems.

That said I can think of many applications where these systems could be stellar... home theater being one of them.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I love this :D.
While writing this I'm listening to the dramatic low end of my 4435.
The cabinet halfs of the 4435 are tuned tooo low, yes. But both together they sum up to a perfect low end. That's part of the design. One just need to understand it.
:barf:


Ah,

But Guido you are using probably the best amplifer ever for that system..the Aleph 2. This gets back to what I was outlining in another thread. Unfortunately some people never seem to satisfied (or get it right).

I found the combination of the 2344, the Aleph and Hovlands using the 3135 crossover very musical.

Ian