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View Full Version : Paragon & C35's in a Theater Room?



arwun
08-04-2007, 07:09 AM
I’m building a theater/media room in my basement, 16’x 23’x 9’, and would like your guys’ opinions on using some old JBL speakers for the room vs. new speakers…

I have a Paragon. Although it sounds excellent for music, I don’t think that it would lend itself great to the theater room’s front L&R channels because of the nature of the Paragon’s design (I don’t think that it would have distinct enough lefts & rights for movies, etc.). So, I was considering using the Paragon as a center channel speaker. However, I was wondering the best way to wire it in; obviously it has L & R inputs, but I would only be using it as one speaker.

I also have a pair of three-way JBL C-35’s, which have complementary components to the Paragon that I think would be good for the FL & FR speakers since you can separate them and point them toward the audience.

So, my question is, do you think that those three speakers would sound good in a theater room? If so, what should I use for the rest of the speakers (rear surrounds, sub-woofer, etc.) so that they sound okay as a whole package?

Or, am I wasting some excellent JBL speakers on a theater room when they could be better utilized somewhere else in the house to solely listen to music? In which case, I would need to buy a whole matching set of new speakers for the theater room.

BMWCCA
08-04-2007, 07:14 AM
Or, am I wasting some excellent JBL speakers on a theater room when they could be better utilized somewhere else in the house to solely listen to music? Yes.
But not just wasting. The vintage stuff offers a...vintage listening experience. For watching TV (well, that's really what it is) you're probably better off with a multi-channel setup with some subs. And, of course, give the old stuff to me! :applaud:

arwun
08-04-2007, 07:27 AM
For watching TV you're probably better off with a multi-channel setup with some subs.

Another option would be to use the C35's as my LF & LR, and leave the Paragon in another part of the house for music. Then I would need to find something else to use as my center-channel speaker that would sound right along wiht the C35's. Is there such a speaker available in the new marketplace?

Thom
08-04-2007, 05:19 PM
If the paragon fits I don't see why not. As for waste you have to judge that. You could be storing it. If you just hook the two sides up parallel I'm sure it isn't a four ohm set up so it would be at least four ohms when hooked up parallel but I'm sure I hear keystrokes in the background telling me how ignorant I am of paragons, unless he's on vacation. Regardless, just parallel the two sides.

Zilch
08-04-2007, 09:55 PM
I have considered it.

The primary difficulty is combing from the two 075s.

Needs a single horn smack in the middle, it seems....

arwun
08-05-2007, 06:36 AM
Was I correct about the Paragon not being ideal as my FL & FR channels/speakers for a theater room setup because the separation isn't distinct enough?

If I can do that, then the wife may be more happy. I don't think that she's crazy about having the C35's in the theater room because of their size. I know that the Paragon is even larger, but it is a piece of art.

Another reason why I'd like to somehow use the Paragon in the theater room is because I want to keep it out of the main traffic areas in the basement. For some reason guests tend to see the large flat surface and decide that it's a nice place to throw their car keys or set their drink down, at which point I become unglued. :biting: Also, it would free up some room in the rest of the basement for a pool table, etc.

Maron Horonzakz
08-05-2007, 06:40 AM
The Paragon makes a excellent left,,Right,,and a good center blend all by itself...You,ve been listening to it that way and should know its blending properties...no matter where you sit...The dynamic range and explosive wave fronts are hard to match in that position. Plus the dialog has good definition. I use it that way with the other speakers placed left & right rear...The over all ambient field is well spread overall...I,ve found Too many speakers smear the surround field. Why complicate things.;)

Maron Horonzakz
08-05-2007, 06:53 AM
As far as guests placing drinks on the speakers...I have a small sign on my wall "slobs will be punished" Thats what the coffee table in front of chair is for that seperates the chairs from the Paragon.;)

mikebake
08-05-2007, 09:12 AM
Why don't you just hook it up and see what you think instead of pondering over it?

Maron Horonzakz
08-05-2007, 09:44 AM
Your not going to stress the amp or speakers. Hook it up and see what you find.:D

Maron Horonzakz
08-05-2007, 09:49 AM
Dont worry about seperation,,,Not too much lost there,, but about cohesion.

Mr. Widget
08-05-2007, 10:00 AM
Why don't you just hook it up and see what you think instead of pondering over it?That's a good point... only you can decide if this will work for you.

Not too long ago I was visiting a fellow with his Paragon being used in this way... He had a 60" plasma over his Paragon and had his processor set to phantom center... it worked fine for the Evening News and your basic TV fair... I wasn't terribly impressed with it for a movie experience though. Subs would have helped, but the speaker just drew too much attention to itself. I've heard far less exotic systems that worked much better for home theater duty.

Using three C35s up front with a proper sub would probably work pretty well... you should be able to track down a matching third C35 to be used as your center or have one built.


Widget

arwun
08-05-2007, 04:23 PM
That's a good point... only you can decide if this will work for you.

Using three C35s up front with a proper sub would probably work pretty well... you should be able to track down a matching third C35 to be used as your center or have one built.


Is there anything in the current (new) marketplace that would work as a center along w/ the C35's (maybe smaller, so I can hide it in the wall)? Does it really need to match the other front speakers; how important is that?

Thom
08-05-2007, 09:09 PM
Well I see the paragon "expert" showed up so you should be in good hands. I've never understood too much about this center channel stuff, as with proper imaging a stereo pair can put a soloist front and center so that you'd believe there was a center channel. Now, I can't say for sure, but probably nobody here can accurately judge how your wife is going to react. You are supposed to be the expert there, and I for one wish you good luck, as that can be difficult. I didn't really catch when he said cohesion if perhaps he was referring to the same thing and I know that more than the amp can easily become stressed.

Mr. Widget
08-05-2007, 11:02 PM
Is there anything in the current (new) marketplace that would work as a center along w/ the C35's (maybe smaller, so I can hide it in the wall)? Does it really need to match the other front speakers; how important is that?For the best performance you need the front three speakers to be identical in a HT application. For the best performances to be enjoyed by more than one person, a center channel is necessary.

You need to decide the level of compromise. Perhaps three contemporary small bookshelf speakers will give you a more acceptable appearance as well as better performance than your C35s... especially if you end up with a mismatched set of speakers.

As far as in-wall speakers... that is the surest way to mediocre sound.


Widget

Thom
08-06-2007, 02:29 AM
I guess I had missed the part about more than one person before. It makes more sense when stated that way.

Maron Horonzakz
08-06-2007, 06:03 AM
Thats what the curved panel is all about.. you can sit off center and the image is still intact...Left ,,right ,, or center,, the mono dialog will still be there..There are some diffraction problems with the 075 tweeter sitting that far back in the horn cavity but they are above the fundamental frequencies (above 7K) But if your a diehard and want all three channels in front then all three speakers should be identical....But if you have the deep pockets go for it... For movie dialog??? NaaaaaaHHH.;)

arwun
08-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Thats what the curved panel is all about.. you can sit off center and the image is still intact...Left ,,right ,, or center,, the mono dialog will still be there.

I agree, that's fine for two-channel stereo music, but for a HT there is a dedicated center channel signal. In fact, for regular music I prefer the Paragon by iteslf... no center, no rear surrounds, etc.

Thom
08-06-2007, 10:52 AM
I could see all this discussion before purchasing it but since you've got it already what are you gambling? A movie experience or two?

And Maron, If you haven't tried a paragon with extra bass cabinet and pr15's don't knock it.

arwun
08-06-2007, 02:01 PM
I could see all this discussion before purchasing it but since you've got it already what are you gambling?

I'm trying to get all of the design details done before completing the Theater Room build, so if I'm not going to use the Paragon and/or C35's, then the speakers may be integrated differently. For instance, if I'm going to get new dedicated TR speakers, then they might be built into the room somehow and the screen placement might be at a different height, etc.

Maron Horonzakz
08-06-2007, 06:35 PM
Thom ...You dont know what your talking about...PR 15 just add mushh. So bug off.

Maron Horonzakz
08-06-2007, 06:46 PM
ARWUN....Probably a newer and completely different approach is needed.. A dedicated hidden audio system might be what you need...Speakers always detrack from a good looking video room they just add to the clutter....maybe a planer flat panel speaker system plus built in subs. since your in the design stage all kinds of audio arch,,come to mind.

Mr. Widget
08-07-2007, 12:45 AM
I'm trying to get all of the design details done before completing the Theater Room build...


...since your in the design stage all kinds of audio arch,,come to mind.I'd build a false wall out a couple of feet (five feet if you have the room) from the wall on the screen/display end of the room. The area behind and around the speakers should be treated with Sonex or some other form of sound absorbing material... Sonex is best but will set you back a few bucks) You can stretch fabric, or incorporate equipment cabinets/bookcases etc. and put your speakers behind scrims.(large panels of acoustically transparent fabric)

With a design like this there is nothing visible that you don't want to see and you can have stellar sound. If you are seeking a SOTA HT playback experience it can be readily accomplished with some moderately priced systems or you can go all out. If you want a vintage sound you can do that too, but I'd save that for a music system... the demands of contemporary soundtracks are different than that for stereo music playback. I'd go with L110s or 4412s on the smaller and less expensive end of the spectrum or go with 4428s or 4430s or ? at the higher end of the scale... three Urei monitors up front would be killer see Ureicollector's thread on his theater.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12303

They don't need to be the larger Ureis unless your room is quite large or you are after extreme SPLs... essentially most any high quality professional monitor should give you a very satisfying home theater and if you build a false wall... the room won't be visually dominated by the sound system.

As for the rears, I have found that they are far less critical... almost any competent speaker will suffice... you can get away with in-walls here, but again, I'd shy away from them... even the fairly expensive models don't sound as good as a moderately priced free standing system.


Widget

arwun
08-09-2007, 11:26 AM
I made a mistake; they're actually three-way C40's (not c35's). Regardless, I'm still thinking about using the Paragon as my center channel (wiring it up in parallel to create a mono center channel), and using the C40's as my FL & FR.

Given that all of these speakers are 30+ years old, would I benefit greatly if I replace any of the components (speakers, crossovers, etc)? I don't want to spend a ton of money, unless it's going to give me a noticeable benefit. However, can I assume that the foam on the woofers is deteriorated, or the ranges aren't that great compared to newer technology, etc? The speakers sound good to me right now, but they’re just sitting in the garage and I may not know what I’m missing until I “fix” it. For instance, I think that Pioneer’s professional grade TAD components are a directly drop-in for JBL’s but are better. If so, are they worth the money? That’s what Classic Audio Reproductions is using in their Heartsfields.

Maron Horonzakz
08-09-2007, 12:10 PM
Probably the surrounds on the woofers will need attending to, that would be cheeper than buying TAD 1601 woofers.....I dont think mids or tweets need replacing....But crossovers will need refreshing...It should,nt cost that much just time and effort...

arwun
08-09-2007, 12:12 PM
crossovers will need refreshing...

This may be an ignorant question/s, but what do you mean by refreshing the x-overs? And why? How?

Thom
08-09-2007, 12:14 PM
Thom ...You dont know what your talking about...PR 15 just add mushh. So bug off.

You never heard it!!!!! I would have liked to have heard it with the extra 6 cubic feet and no PR but it wasn't mine. It wasn't as tight as theater woofers in a C55, but what is?

Maron Horonzakz
08-09-2007, 12:23 PM
The capaciters are pretty old and may have changed value...Just replace with same value numbers written on sides,, but new ones.

Zilch
08-09-2007, 12:41 PM
Oh, YEAH, let's fuck with Paragons!!

I would NOT do anything to the original components that was irreversible.

Replace the crossovers with reworked newer version 31xx, which will fit in the same cutouts. Don't mess with the originals. :scold:

Maron Horonzakz
08-09-2007, 01:10 PM
Zilch....You want to fuck or just make love....Actually we dont know if any thing is wrong with his Paragon,,Just speculation,,,,But every component can be tested and measured. That of course that should be done first...Hell you can look at a LE15 and check for cracks...But you need test instruments for the rest.. But of course if it still sounds good ,,,Dont mess with love.:D

Zilch
08-09-2007, 01:22 PM
I'd certainly be looking to the woofer surrounds first thing.

If they're original Lansaloy and not cracked already, they will be soon with use, dropping their value considerably.

If intact, alternative woofers would be my first "fix".

What to use would require some research. I'd probably start with E145s, if they'll fit, but wouldn't limit my search to JBL....

Maron Horonzakz
08-09-2007, 02:01 PM
The JBL Paragon replacement manual recommends the 2235 woofer....to replace the Le15....But the E145 would be my second choice,,,Ive tried that and the E145 sound close to the ol 150-4C

arwun
08-09-2007, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure if I was clear, but I do use these speakers currently. The Paragon is in my unfinished basement and is used occationally, and the C40s are hooked up in my garage, which my neighbors enjoy when cranked up.

They sound good to me, but that doesn't mean that all of the components are in pristine shape. I just wanted to let you guys know that they haven't been sitting idle for 20 years or something.

MJC
08-12-2007, 10:03 AM
From what I've read and been told, the Paragon was meant to be a center channel system, used with a pair of Hartsfields. Of coarse that was for stereo music.
My son and I heard that exact system 7 years ago when Hal Cox was still living in Mill Valley, CA.
Hal first played the Hartsfields and then the Paragon and then all three together. My son's jaw just dropped wide open in total awe. I had originally heard the Paragon in MI. when I was 19.
I don't know how good that setup would work for HT. I think I'd save the Paragon for a stereo setup, using some H/K Citation amps to drive it.

arwun
11-06-2007, 11:26 AM
Okay, guys slowly, but surely getting to the point for speaker installation in the theater room...

I've decided not to use the paragon in the theater room, and instead enjoy it in another part of the house.

I'm hooking up a McIntosh MHT200 A/V Receiver to drive the theater room speakers (& the paragon outside the room).

In order to save some money initially, I would like to try using the C40's as my front L & R main speakers. If they work well, then I will save from getting new speakers + be able to enjoy my C40's. My issue is the center channel speaker. The "experts" (speaker salesmen) are telling me that I can't do this - that I NEED to use a "matched set" of three up front. I am having a hard time believeing that to be true - is it?

I would like to purchase a JBL Studio Series LC2 (http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LC2&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=SLS) for my center channel speaker & an L8400P sub-woofer. And if for some reason the C40's don't work out, I can purchase a pair of L890's to match.

Will it sound right? The big question is how do I know if it doesn't? :blink:

4313B
11-06-2007, 12:12 PM
Will it sound right? The big question is how do I know if it doesn't? :blink:You'll know because you won't like it.

arwun
11-06-2007, 12:34 PM
You'll know because you won't like it.

That's what I'm hoping (that it'll be obvious). If it sounds okay vs sounding great I may not realize it.

I was also thinking about finding a store that will allow me to try out the new JBL's at home & return them if I don't like them - then I'll be able to tell if okay isn't good enough.