60's Altec info

[grumpy]

looking for info to distinguish Carmel and Avalon ... found components as
414-series 12" drivers (pair) and 804 or perhaps later 806 driver on 811B,
800Hz crossover. Both appear to be similar (or identical) lowboy type cabs
with legs (~6") or a short pedestal. Not sure about the reliability of this info
vs. stock...:dont-know

thanks and regards, -grumpy

something like an 844 flipped to used on the floor...

[grumpy]

a kind person offered this pdf (includes 858A, 855A, 856A, and 859A cabinet info, which is a start):

[Chas]

Grumpy, I had a pair of Carmel's years ago. They had a pair of 414Z, 811B, 806A and I think the xover was an N800E or F in each cabinet.

I'm not familiar with the other model you mention.

Charles.

[grumpy]

Thank you sir! :)

[Tom Brennan]

I may be mistaken but I dimly recall that the Avalon used a single 414 in the same sized box as the Carmel which used a pair.

[grumpy]

Thanks Tom,

At this point, I think I'll punt and just replace the baffle boards to serve my whim.
The cabinets have been modified to run 604's, and came without rear-panel ID labels.
They were claimed to be Avalon's and I was curious about their lineage.
There are two sets of 414's for sale in Canada that could turn these into ersatz
Carmel's, but that's $$$ and I picked these up for fun :D.

-grumpy

[wws944]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I wanted to confirm what Tom Brennan posted.

The Avalon and Carmel do have the same cabinet and components. The difference is that the Avalon has a single woofer and the Carmel has two woofers. According to my audiophile uncle, it was a common mod at the time to purchase an Avalon, then add the second woofer to convert it to a Carmel configuration. (He did it to his Avalon.)

W

[Steve]

Aloha wws944

Heathkit also came out in the '50's with the "Legato" line that used Altec components. They were grey color paint.
There were several different configurations.
Most are familiar with the Legato HH-1 that used two 15" woofers and the 511 horn and 802 driver. It came in different finishes.
They also had one that had the 12" woofers in a similar design in a low boy cabinet with short legs.
I also seem to remember in one brochure that they had a design listed with a single 12" or 15" woofer too.
Back then the 15" woofers has the paper surrounds. I can't remember if the 12" woofers did also. I would have to dig out the papers and brochures from my files to verify it.
Here is a link to the Heathkit museum with a pict and info on the Legato 15".
http://www.heathkit-museum.com/hifi/hvmhh-1-c.shtml

The semi-retired Altec dealer where I live has mentioned numerous times to me that he prefers the 9844 design for its sound over the 15" models.


Steve

[Grillsargeant]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum.

I have a pair of Altec Avalon and have been searching for information about them so I stumbled upon this forum! The speakers are loaded with the 804A, (1) 414Z and N-800-F crossover.

The outsides are a little beaten up, but I can't complain, a friend parted with them for $150 after I helped him move. I can post pictures if anyone would like. I have not played them as other speaker projects have been calling.

[shaansloan]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum.

I have a pair of Altec Avalon and have been searching for information about them so I stumbled upon this forum! The speakers are loaded with the 804A, (1) 414Z and N-800-F crossover.

The outsides are a little beaten up, but I can't complain, a friend parted with them for $150 after I helped him move. I can post pictures if anyone would like. I have not played them as other speaker projects have been calling.

Welcome Grillsageant.....Wow, that is a sweet score....I am sure they sound like great!

please do post some pictures....we would love to see them....!

Shaan

[MarkDA]

On a similar topic, I've been hunting down parts to restore a pair of Carmels and think I have everything now so I can start my project. However now I'm wondering if I have the correct horns- I picked up a pair of 806-8A/811B, but it appears that the originals were 804? Can anyone advise if these are (somewhat) interchangeable?

Thanks- Mark

[Tom Brennan]

On a similar topic, I've been hunting down parts to restore a pair of Carmels and think I have everything now so I can start my project. However now I'm wondering if I have the correct horns- I picked up a pair of 806-8A/811B, but it appears that the originals were 804? Can anyone advise if these are (somewhat) interchangeable?

Thanks- Mark


The 804 and 806 are the same driver, I mean exactly the same. For some reason Altec changed the number from 804 to 806.

[MarkDA]

That's great news, Tom. Thanks. I was also a little concerned because the 806 horn doesn't completely fill the open cutout on the front baffle. The prior owner had just stuck in a piece of plywood with a cone mid and dome tweeter mounted on it, so I've never seen it done 'right'.

[Tom Brennan]

That's great news, Tom. Thanks. I was also a little concerned because the 806 horn doesn't completely fill the open cutout on the front baffle. The prior owner had just stuck in a piece of plywood with a cone mid and dome tweeter mounted on it, so I've never seen it done 'right'.



Mark---The horn isn't supposed to fill the entire hole, the spaces to the sides are the bass reflex ports for the woofer. Note the photo shown of my Heath AS-21s, a Heathkit version of the Altec Carmel. See the space to the side of the horn where the grillcloth shows through? That's one of the ports.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/earlydec139.jpg

In this photo you can see the ports on either side of the horn.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/gpa-as-1.jpg

[MarkDA]

Thanks, Tom. Is there any concern over the tweeter impedance, or are they all the same in that regard too? I've made sure to get all the same 414-Z woofers.

[Tom Brennan]

Thanks, Tom. Is there any concern over the tweeter impedance, or are they all the same in that regard too? I've made sure to get all the same 414-Z woofers.


Well as far as I know all the 804s and most 806s were 16 ohms. However as you have 8 ohm 806s (which are later models, black rather than green, right?) you'll probably need to compensate for that in the crossover, depending on the crossover you're using.

[MarkDA]

Yes, the 806s are black. The crossovers are the N-800-F version. So will it just require some adjustment with the attenuator, or will I need to modify the crossover? -Thanks.

[Tom Brennan]

Yes, the 806s are black. The crossovers are the N-800-F version. So will it just require some adjustment with the attenuator, or will I need to modify the crossover? -Thanks.


PM a fella here named Zilch, he's investigated Altec crossovers and can help you much more than I can.

[Zilch]

A) The Altec N-800-F crossover was used both for 8-Ohm and 16-Ohm driver combinations in different products. The sims and performance measurements are in this thread, which should be of interest to dual-414 applications. Sorry, it's 19 pages, 285 posts, but includes all what you need to know:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18913

B) There's nobody home above 10 kHz with either 804 or 806, and their excessively forward midrange is only partially mitigated by later versions of N-800-F. There are several options to correct both issues, and you can read about them here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14690

Sorry, that one's 59 pages, 881 posts, but, again, it's all there.

Bottom line for 804/806 + N-800-F performance:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=30640&stc=1&d=1201053562

Actively biamped with CD compensation, you can get them to play reasonably flat out to ~14 kHz:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=30638&stc=1&d=1201036317

Note the different driver model in Tom's second pic. He can tell you more regarding what that's about.... :thmbsup:

[MarkDA]

Wow- thanks. And I thought this was going to be a relatively straightforward little project!!

[Tom Brennan]

Mark---I think your crossovers are meant to work with 16 ohm compression drivers rather than your 8 ohm ones. If so that will change the crossover point, the system won't work as intended.

This is one reason lots of DIY guys and experimenters use active crossovers. If you have an extra amp and $100 for an active crossover consider going that route.

[Skywave-Rider]

Minor point:
Rotate your woofers 180 degrees. The Altec elastomer goo used on the surrounds can creep and make its way on to the cones. This thread reminded me to do mine yesterday. All is well
(Man, those Altec woofers are beautiful.)
FYI, my 9844s run 8 Ohm compression drivers, and 16 Ohm 414Zs (in parallel.)

[Zilch]

Wow- thanks. And I thought this was going to be a relatively straightforward little project!!It CAN be straightforward, and as easy as finding out what the stock components were and putting that together. Plenty of Altec enthusiasts are pleased with those results. It's when we look at that and decide to improve upon the original designs that it becomes complex.


Mark---I think your crossovers are meant to work with 16 ohm compression drivers rather than your 8 ohm ones. If so that will change the crossover point, the system won't work as intended.We looked at that in my first citation above, which is Skywave's 9844-8Bs. The sims show what's up with running those 8-Ohm drivers (the two woofers are in parallel) on the supposedly 16-Ohm N-800-F crossovers, as Altec did in this instance and others. A shift in perspective as to what stuff "is" is necessary to appreciate that the change in crossover point and driver response shaping is, in fact, intentional.... :yes:

[MarkDA]

Okay, so if I have four 414z 16 ohm woofers, two N-800-F crossovers, two 806-8A/811B 8 ohm horns, and Carmel cabinets in pretty nice condition... what's the best thing for me to do? Try and source the original 804 16 ohm horns, or maybe modify the crossover? Goal is just to restore the speakers and see what potential magic lurks in the design, however having never heard them or similar outfitted properly before I can't put a dollar value on how worthwhile this project really is. Thanks in advance for any suggestions and direction.

[Zilch]

Okay, so if I have four 414z 16 ohm woofers, two N-800-F crossovers, two 806-8A/811B 8 ohm horns, and Carmel cabinets in pretty nice condition... what's the best thing for me to do? Try and source the original 804 16 ohm horns, or maybe modify the crossover?804 is the driver, not the horn, 806 is the same, and it doesn't matter if the diaphragms are 8 or 16 ohms.

Hook it up, and you're done; the "magic" will appear. If it's worth ~$200 to you to hear it with 16-Ohm diaphragms, have a pair of those installed in your drivers by GPA; he'll recharge the magnets at the same time.

Next step, biamp and push the "CD Comp" button; that'll get you the best these are gonna deliver.

[You CAN get better bass using the "0.5" trick with that, if desired.... :yes: ]

[Grillsargeant]

Here are some pictures of my Altec Avalon's! :D Needing outside restoration, the insides look unmolested. Is there a place for user photos? How about a Yahoo group?
36837

36839

36840

36841

36842

I guess I ought to plug these Avalon's in and fire them up. I've been busy working and trying to finish up various hifi projects. Since we downsized our home, these speakers don't exactly fit in the living room. My wife is very patient though...

I have more pictures, closeups of the drivers: 804A and 414Z. The 414 has these numbers on the backside of the cone: 21060.

[Steve Schell]

Tom, I have it on good authority that the Altec 804A and 806A drivers are not identical. Although they look the same externally, the 804A has a considerably smaller alnico magnet than the 806A which was its successor. The 804A was introduced during a period when management was cheapening the Altec line into oblivion; the 605A replacing the 604D was another example of their insanity. Apparently the 804A's magnet was weak enough to move the mass corner downward and begin losing the top end, prompting the introduction of the 806A after many complaints to get the h.f. response back.

[Tom Brennan]

Steve I'm forced to wonder about your source and his credibility. Jim Dickinson states the 804 was made from 1961 to 1964 and then rebranded as the 806 in 1964. Dickinson seems to know his Altecs.

Comparing 804 specs and 807 specs (1968 807 specs, and all seem to agree the 807 is an 806 with symbiotic) show the 804 and 807 having the same magnet weight, magnet strength and overall unit weight. This tends to confirm that the 804 and 806 are the same driver.

Perhaps your pal is confusing the 804-806 thing with the 802-806 thing.

[Steve Schell]

Tom, I checked with my friend Robert. He says that despite the published specs there are indeed several differences between the 804A and 806A examples he has had apart. He says the 804A magnet has a smaller outer diameter and the phasing plug has smaller slits, giving the driver a higher compression ratio than the 806A. He also said that the diaphragm in the 804A may have a shorter voice coil than the 806A, though he is not certain about this.

I remember taking apart a junky pair of 605A Duplex drivers years ago, and was surprised to find that the h.f. driver phasing plugs had smaller slits than the 806As and 802Ds I had at the time. Robert says that the 804A and 605A share this higher compression ratio phasing plug.

Robert is in the middle of moving, but if he can find these parts he will bring them to me to photograph. Stay tuned.

[Steve Schell]

Robert brought me the magnets from Altec 802D, 806A and 804A drivers. As I hope can be seen in my crummy pictures, the 802D and 806A magnets have the same inner and outer diameters but are different heights as the 802D has a longer body. The 806A magnet has the same height and inner diameter as the 804A magnet, but the larger outer diameter that it shares in common with the 802D magnet. I don't know why these relationships aren't reflected in the Altec literature of the time, but suspect that the corporate cost cutting and subsequent eating crow may have played a part.

[grumpy]

Thanks Steve (and Robert)!

[mikebond]

Hi!
I'm a newcomer to this forum. A lot of very interesting information I can read here. I gonna bild my new Altec project using 416-Z + 414-Z woofers and 806A drivers on 811 horns. Not to long ago I made FR test of 806a+811. It looks not bad, but don't have enough VHF. The first picture is FR of 806a driver without any crossover, and the second one is 806A connected to T-filter like this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=30550&stc=1&d=1200705487

I don't like to change driver. I have a plane to use MR 902-16HF as a supertweeter. What do you think about this supplement?
Also I'm looking for a good idea how to use 416-Z and 414-Z woofers together in one enclosure.
Sorry for my bad English.

[voice of theatr]

Hello,
I joined this forum last night after it came up on a google search for "heathkit AS 101 manual". I just bought a pair of Heathkit AS-101 speakers in near mint condition from a local classified ad (Altec drivers are mint--cabinet near mint). I'm a long time altec user--I have a pair of P.A. Voice of the Theater A7 speakers that I use for P.A. with my (rock) band (bought them used over 10 years ago). I also have a pair of Altec Valencia speakers that I use for my "downstairs/basement" home stereo together with a pair of altec model nine speakers (4 speakers sound better than 2!). The AS-101s that I just bought are for my "upstairs" (living room) stereo. I've been looking at the altec library and the AS-101s are most similar to the altec flamenco speakers from 1971 as far as shape/look of the cabinet--they seem to be identical to the flamencos other than the grill. Their cabinet is a little different from the Valencias. As far as the drivers they look to be the same as the flamencos? (and also the same drivers as the valencias/voice of the theater?). Anyways, I've been unable to find a manual for these speakers anywhere online--does anyone out there know where I can get a copy of the manual with specs etc? The woofers and horns both say made for Heathkit by Altec Lansing and have Heathkit part numbers on them--does anyone know what the equivalent Altec part numbers would be? I have photos etc. if that would help....Also, should I replace the caps in the crossover? There are 3 for each speaker as some of you probably already know...
Thanks,
Dave

[SHDOBE]

Hi there: I'm a new member as a pair of Carmels just came my way. They are 391419 as marked on the cabinet labels and horn drivers (804A). The 414z are 391413 in one cabinet and 391412 in the other. The legs are missing and one badge as well. The legs look like they were round as the "photographing" on the bottom of the cabinet indicates.

I was wondering how long the original legs would be and what do they look like?:D

Thanks46291 46290C46289J46288

[shaansloan]

4657946578
Hi there: I'm a new member as a pair of Carmels just came my way. They are 391419 as marked on the cabinet labels and horn drivers (804A). The 414z are 391413 in one cabinet and 391412 in the other. The legs are missing and one badge as well. The legs look like they were round as the "photographing" on the bottom of the cabinet indicates.

I was wondering how long the original legs would be and what do they look like?:D

Thanks46291 46290C46289J46288

Yo...here are some poor cell pics of a replacement leg for my Carmel...they were built to duplicate the originals...they are 5" long and tapered from top to bottom....hope this helps... Shaan