PDA

View Full Version : Behringer DCX2496 digital x-over any good



Pages : [1] 2

Flodstroem
03-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Hello folks!

Sitting here and planning to change some of my audio gear to more flexible parts, if its a benefit, I dont know.

What I plan to do is to get rid of my Ashly 4-way stereo XR4001 analog x-over and then buy two new Behringer DCX2496 digital x-overs, but I dont know how they sound. Anybody here who have a longer of time experience to this digital x-over? To me it looks to be a little bit complicated to all this programmings one must do before one is able to use it. But the possibilities looks to be infinitive and if buying two of those it will cover my needs that the older XR4001 couldnt do, a 5-way stereo soundstage.
So, is there someone who can post some comments, positives and negatives no matter what, then I should be grateful. :)

Thanks in Advance

Regards

Hoerninger
03-15-2007, 11:35 AM
Freerider made some investigations found here:
http://freerider.dyndns.org/

Of special interest:

Evaluation of the DCX2496
(http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/evaluierung.htm)Improved digital input stage for the Behringer DCX2496 (http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/Behringer-Input-Stage-E.htm)
Expanded Soundstaging and 3D-Imaging (http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm)

Freerider adds (in German) that Black-Gate-Capacitors at the output will improve clearance of soundstage. When tolerating a slight DC offset at the output these capacitors can be replaced with wire with same sonical advantages.
____________
Peter

boputnam
03-15-2007, 11:40 AM
I do have a digital xover, but not in my "audiophile" (loosely used...) home set-up - I use it in my SR gear.

I use a Klark Teknik DN9848 (http://www.klarkteknik.com/dn9848e.html) - 4 in, 8 out - which will enable 4-way stereo (but not 5). It is a really great unit - relatively easy to program. Each out has 6 PEQ's and time-delays, etc. Each of the 4 inputs has 12 PEQ's and time-delay, etc. Very powerful for ever-changing SR situations.

xta (http://www.xta.uk.com/news.htm) has a couple of great units - the DP224 and DP226 - but these are "only" 2-by-4 and 2-by-6 respectively.

I would not even try a Behringer digital, but that is my bias. Digital, done right can sound good - done cheaply, it's wrong.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-15-2007, 12:15 PM
I would not even try a Behringer digital, but that is my bias. Digital, done right can sound good - done cheaply, it's wrong.


I understand Bo's hard line on Behringer. This company spends more time in court fighting patent infringement than practicing there own R&D.

That being said, I have a couple of friends that have had great success with the 2496. I have been seriously tempted to buy one to modify. With a couple of hundred bucks and soldering time, they can perform quite well.

An affordable alternative to the Deqx units? At 300 bucks a unit you get a powerfull processing tool.

Just for the record. I support the personal decision not to support companies that steal other's patent's. Microsoft has been doing it for 20 years.

Ken

Mike Caldwell
03-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Hello
If you want to try a DSP that sounds very good, has real human tech support...if you need it, very versatile programing options, front panel or easy PC & MAC software programing and is VERY economically priced.
The Peavey VSX26...yes I said Peavey! With some shopping around $350 or less. Way out performs what the price suggest.
You would need of them to do your 5 way stereo set up. For that matter you will need two of almost any DSP to do 5 way stereo. 4 in 8 out is the standard large configuation for most DSP's. Any DSP that does 10 outputs would not be a starter unit just to see what their about.

Mike Caldwell

JBL 4645
03-17-2007, 10:49 AM
This looks promising the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System and like the (dbx 4800 thatís been installed at the Empire Leicester square as part of its THX installation), the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 is priced normally around RRP £327.83 but at mad price of £168.99 at Turnkey yeah that positively on the list for the summertime.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/306050.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/288072.jpg

dbx 4800
http://www.dbxpro.com/4800/4800.htm (http://www.dbxpro.com/4800/4800.htm)

Behringer has something along the same lines yet the cost is has high as $3K! No, this one can be picked up for $249.99 or £168.99 at Turnkey site over here in the UK.

Turnkey / Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/produc...496&context=WEB (http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/produc...496&context=WEB)

Parts-Express / Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psh...tnumber=248-669 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psh...tnumber=248-669)

So I have plans to save up and buy a few yes a few is needed to address the audio and at the price these are going for well thatís a huge saving

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/BEHRINGER_UltraDrivePro.jpg
Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496
http://www.behringerdownload.de/DCX...SPECS_Rev_C.pdf (http://www.behringerdownload.de/DCX...SPECS_Rev_C.pdf)



The ULTRADRIVE PRO DCX2496 is the ultimate digital loudspeaker management system with an unheard-of audio quality and feature list. It is an indispensable tool for the precise set-up of multiple loudspeaker systems or arrays. Installation contractors, live-sound engineers, cinemas / discotheques / concert hall operators will quickly learn to love this model's rich features. Signals can be split in various ways to assure precise sound by using the optimal frequency range of each loudspeaker.

Start with its 3 analog inputs (one suitable as a digital stereo AES / EBU input) and 6 analog outputs. You get maximum flexibility in just one rack space. Superb high-end AKM 24-bit / 96 kHz A/D and D/A converters give you ultimate signal integrity and an extreme dynamic range of 113 dB. Easy connection of external digital signals with sampling rates from 32 to 96 kHz is a breeze with the integrated sample rate converter. There are precise dynamic EQs for level-dependent equalization and extremely musical parametric EQs, selectable for all inputs and outputs, and "Zero"-attack limiters on all output channels guarantee optimal signal and loudspeaker protection.

You also get four different mono and stereo output operating modes, all with individual crossover filter types (Butterworth, Bessel and Linkwitz-Riley) with selectable roll-off characteristics from 6 to 48 dB/octave. The delays for all inputs and outputs are adjustable. This allows you to manually or automatically correct for room temperature, phase and arrival time differences. An additional sum signal is easily derived from the A/B/C inputs.

Now that remote control is such a hot topic, you'll be glad that the future-proof ULTRADRIVE PRO software enables single or multi remote control via PC through RS-232 and RS-485 interfaces. And the link option via RS-485 network interface enables cascading of several ULTRADRIVE PROs. A Windows-based editing software is available for download free of charge. No matter what the future brings, its open architecture assures easy software updates. A PCMCIA slot allows you to store all your settings and recall them anytime you change the location-virtually taking your ULTRADRIVE PRO with you.

But don't be fooled by the ULTRADRIVE PRO's sleek design. Its high-power 32-bit SHARC-DSP and ultra-high resolution CRYSTAL/AKM A/D & D/A converter provide outstanding audio performance-and the servo-balanced, gold-plated XLR connectors for all inputs and outputs guarantee excellent connectivity for the years to come.

Features:

3 analog inputs (one suitable as digital stereo AES/EBU input) and 6 analog outputs for maximum flexibility
High-end AKM 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converters for ultimate signal integrity and wide dynamic range (113 dB)
Integrated sample rate converter for easy connection of external digital signals with sampling rates from 32 to 96 kHz
Precise dynamic EQs for level-dependent equalization and extremely musical parametric EQs, selectable for all inputs and outputs

Several types of EQs (LP/BP/HP) for each input and output
"Zero"-attack limiters on all output channels for optimal speaker protection
Four different mono and stereo output operating modes

Individual crossover filter types (Butterworth, Bessel and Linkwitz-Riley) with selectable roll-off characteristics from 6 to 48 dB/octave

Adjustable delays for all inputs and outputs-allow manual or automatic correction for room temperature, phase and arrival time differences

Additional sum signal derived from the A/B/C inputs offers a fourth internal input signal
Future-proof ULTRADRIVE PRO software enables single or multi remote control via PC through RS-232 and RS-485 interfaces (www.behringer.com (http://www.behringer.com/))

Link option via RS-485 network interface enables cascading of several ULTRADRIVE PROs
60 user-defined internal presets storable via PC software or on PCMCIA card
Open architecture assures easy software updates

Ultra low-noise 4580 operational amplifiers for outstanding audio performance
Servo-balanced, gold-plated XLR connectors for all inputs and outputs

High-quality components and exceptionally rugged construction for long life and durability
Internal switch-mode power supply for maximum flexibility (100 - 240 V~), noise-free audio, superior transient response plus lowest possible power consumption

UreiCollector
03-17-2007, 12:15 PM
I am using the Behringer Ultradrive DCX2496 in my system, and absolutely love it!! The box is very flexible and works flawlessly!!! My father also uses 2 in his system as well, with good results.

I'm using it below ~80hz on my JBL2242H's, currently utilizing 6 parametric equalization points per channel (but it will do many more), limiting, dynamic eq (adding a little gain as the volume is decreased), and high pass filtering at 20hz.

For the price, you can't beat it, and I have no issues with performance.

Behringer does offer free sofware to program this unit with your PC/laptop, and that makes it super easy to use. Also if any of you have Bodzio's Sound Easy, new versions will also interface with the DCX2496.

It does invert from input to output, so be careful!!

JBL 4645
03-17-2007, 02:18 PM
UreiCollector

Why thanks mate that is the type of response Iím looking for first hand hands on experience!:applaud:

Well I plan to use at least five for the JBL control 5 and the JBL control 1 arrays not to mention the sub bass extension and LFE.1 as well.

Like you said the price is unbeatable Iím not made of money and when I saw the dbx 4800 some time last year I was kinder disappointed that the price was £3k and thatís for each unit!

Well Iíd say £168.99 UK is more realistically down to earth or when I get my hands on my first one sometime around early April Iíll be able to find out for myself.

Flodstroem
03-17-2007, 03:08 PM
Thank you all for your valuable inputs. Ok, it could seem to it is worth the money. But, Hoerninger, I read all of what you have posted here and what you are trying to telling me is that I had to upgrade for a better jitter performance (filtering), do I understand it right?
Otherwise I liked the comments on the performance of this x-over.

Ken, what modifying are you talking about? Is it the same as Hoerninger was pointing at, if yes then I know what it is, if not, is it possible for you to make a comment on that a little bit more specific (maybe a link)?

Wander if Behringer has done this upgrading after the suggestions you has pointed to (article was from 2005 I think). If not, is it possible to buy finished PCBīs somewhere for this upgrading? If not, where to find only the boards?:) and for two x-overs to.

Regards

Hoerninger
03-17-2007, 03:42 PM
But, Hoerninger, I read all of what you have posted here and what you are trying to telling me is that I had to upgrade for a better jitter performance (filtering), do I understand it right?
... Wander if Behringer has done this upgrading after the suggestions you has pointed to (article was from 2005 I think).
... where to find only the boards?:)

Flodstoem,

there is no more to me than giving you the link. I have no experience with this piece of gear, although I once looked carefully at it when thinking about a certain horn system.

When there are DIY upgrade possibilities it must be considered whether there is time and skill to do so. It might be easier to spend more money into another part which performes better. (So it has been a sort of critic).

In this forum there is another thread right now, where someone is quite satisfied with the DCX2496.

I doubt Behringer has changed anything significantly, it is still selling.

Freerider has given a link to http://www.gsel.com/ where you can order 2 PCBs for aprx. 80 EUR (down side).
____________
Peter

JBL 4645
03-17-2007, 04:13 PM
I see that thereís a second thread going on this. Well Iím not going to be put off by any of the comments in this thread not after some of the audio masking issues Iíve had to listen to for many years.

So is the unit all pc software uploading and does it come with a CD-Rom to deal with the multitudes of audio problems fast and painless as can possible be?



Just for the record. I support the personal decision not to support companies that steal other's patent's. Microsoft has been doing it for 20 years.

Ken

Yeah and his still the richest tight a££ on the planet! £20biliion! or is £200billion?

Ken Pachkowsky
03-17-2007, 06:22 PM
Ken, what modifying are you talking about? Is it the same as Hoerninger was pointing at, if yes then I know what it is, if not, is it possible for you to make a comment on that a little bit more specific (maybe a link)?
Regards

Go here and join this Yahoo Group. You will find many links to websites that instruct you how to mod the 2496 from simple to complex mods.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/

Like I said, at 300 bucks I have been damned tempted to play around modding one.

Keep us posted on your quest. I do highly recommend the Deqx....no mods required:D .

Ken

UreiCollector
03-17-2007, 07:48 PM
I'm sure you'll be happy with it, but as I said, I only use it below ~80hz, so I can not comment on it's sound quality above say 120hz or so. But for what I'm using it for, it is amazing! I see no reason to not use it for sub-woofer applications. :) Perhaps someone else has experience using this box "full range".

doodlebug
03-17-2007, 10:35 PM
as I've been considering getting one just dink (technical term?) around with. Actually, what I'd like to do is to use it with the UREI 813s by bypassing the existing crossover and then implementing it with the DCX.

I suppose, when I consider it, that I probably have too much time on my hands if I'd really decide to do that.

I've noticed quite a few 3rd party upgrades for this box, though. These from an outfit in France look interesting but cost almost as much as the unit does new: http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_US.asp#03.

Still, its an interesting project.

Cheers,

David

UreiCollector
03-18-2007, 11:14 AM
My father wants to do the same with his 813's. In theory, this could be quite an upgrage in performance for the system....at the obvious cost of amplifier $$$.

One thing does trouble me however....the 24/96 sampling. Granted, most recordings I listen to are 16/44, but for my super audio recordings, the 24/96 of the DCX is a nail in the coffin.

I'm also 100% sure that the engineers at Urei are smarter than I am.....but if DSP technology was as readily available at the time, I'm sure they would have used it.

Worth trying? YES, I think definately so. Just from the stand point of time-alignment, the DCX should be much better. For $250, you can't go wrong, and you can always use the DCX for subwoofer applications where the sample rate isn't going to hurt the sound a bit (in my opinion).

It's never a waste of time to experiment, and I would love to hear your results.

tdrugeon
03-18-2007, 01:18 PM
Hi,

I am also considering buying this device to integrate a sub in my setup.

There is another website dedicated to this little device :
http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/cadre_en.htm
(I imagine the french version ot the site is more up to date tho)

they have worked with a french eletronic firm that implemented their modifications:

http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_US.asp

on the french page you can also buy a fully modified DCX2496 for 975Ä:
http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_fr.asp
http://www.selectronic.fr/article.asp?article_ref_entier=70.3013-CMFR

The peavy also seems quite interesting!

Mike Caldwell
03-18-2007, 01:46 PM
Hello
I will have one of the Peavey VSX26 units this week to test out for myself, My use would be for bi-amp stage monitors in my PA system. If it does everything and sounds as good as I have read in different reports I will be getting more, in all I would need 4 of them for all of my monitors mixes. As with most DSP units you can go to the manufactures website and download the software and kinda of get a feel for what they can do before you buy one.
As for modifying and Behringer unit, let me say that I am a very DIY type of person from building all of my cabinets, doing repairs on equipment and modifying equipment. Sometimes though it does not make sense to take what is all ready a piece of equipment with lets say questionable performance and quality and throw more money of time into verses just getting a better piece of gear to begin with.
Personally with the track record of Behringer in all aspects ,I will never use any of their equipment in any of my systems.
To be honest trying a piece of Peavey equipment will be stretch for me, not because of their business practices or customer support but the Peavey brand in the eyes of many is just music store MI grade of products. When some clients want to see high end name brand equipment when you bring out in a system....well Peavey is not usually what they look for.
I'll post what I think after giving it a little use and putting it through it's paces.

Mike Caldwell

Steve Mac
03-18-2007, 01:54 PM
I've been listening to this digital crossover in my studio for
6 months. I've got an s/pdif output from my Yamaha digital mixer
feeding a digital multiplexer(Henry Eng. "DIGIMATCH")
...which feeds an AES/EBU signal to
the DCX2496.
The digital output from the mixer is 24/48.
The power amp is a Crown D-45A.
The horns are Altec 511s and the drivers are 808-a with al diafs'.

I gotta tell you it sounds clean, very clean...digital stuff done
right sounds colorless and this sounds pretty colorless.
I won't consider any D/A mods until the whole system is up and
running and even then I don't know, but right now this device,
which cost me 250 bucks is an incredible tool for the hi-fi hobbyist.
Thumbs up here!

Mike Caldwell
03-18-2007, 02:20 PM
For me in live sound production use as near 100% reliable as possible immediately followed by sound quality are key issues for any piece of equipment in the signal chain. A piece of equipment failing in any way and causing the disruption of any show or event makes the sound provider look bad and may result in the customer calling someone else the next time! The track record of Behringer just does not instill and lot of confidence in me.


Mike Caldwell

Flodstroem
03-18-2007, 04:14 PM
I use a Klark Teknik DN9848 (http://www.klarkteknik.com/dn9848e.html) - 4 in, 8 out - which will enable 4-way stereo (but not 5). It is a really great unit - relatively easy to program. Each out has 6 PEQ's and time-delays, etc. Each of the 4 inputs has 12 PEQ's and time-delay, etc. Very powerful for ever-changing SR situations.

xta (http://www.xta.uk.com/news.htm) has a couple of great units - the DP224 and DP226 - but these are "only" 2-by-4 and 2-by-6 respectively.

boputnam, are you aware of the price differences between a DN9848 and a DCX2496? To be honest, they are not comparable in my eyes (comparing a $ 4,842 piece to a $ 229 piece, not fair?). The XTA wasnt cheap either.


Hello
If you want to try a DSP that sounds very good, has real human tech support...if you need it, very versatile programing options, front panel or easy PC & MAC software programing and is VERY economically priced.
The Peavey VSX26...yes I said Peavey! With some shopping around $350 or less. Way out performs what the price suggest. Mike Caldwell

Mike, a good tip here but actually, the Behringer is higher on dynamics , but it could be an alternative to this Behringer. Especially if looking at the
software programming though I work on Mac.


Hi,
I am also considering buying this device to integrate a sub in my setup.
The peavy also seems quite interesting!

tdrugeon, yes - a really interesting sites (but not all of it was translated to english yet). Her you/I have all the modding parts that could be needed if I later on find out I had to do something to the Behringer (but not necessarily).


I've been listening to this digital crossover in my studio for
6 months. I've got an s/pdif output from my Yamaha digital mixer
feeding a digital multiplexer(Henry Eng. "DIGIMATCH")
...which feeds an AES/EBU signal to
the DCX2496.
The digital output from the mixer is 24/48.
The power amp is a Crown D-45A.
The horns are Altec 511s and the drivers are 808-a with al diafs'.

I gotta tell you it sounds clean, very clean...digital stuff done
right sounds colorless and this sounds pretty colorless.
I won't consider any D/A mods until the whole system is up and
running and even then I don't know, but right now this device,
which cost me 250 bucks is an incredible tool for the hi-fi hobbyist.
Thumbs up here!

Steve, thanks for your comments. Guess you said the "thing" most of all official Audio/Hi-Fi magazines and international tests and evaluations has told us. You could buy this DSP/x-over on eBay for $ 229, Incredible.

One question not answered was if comparing the Behringer to an Ashly XR4001, whats your thoughts about this? Are the really comparable at all?

Regards

Mr. Widget
03-18-2007, 05:15 PM
boputnam, are you aware of the price differences between a DN9848 and a DCX2496? To be honest, they are not comparable in my eyes (comparing a $ 4,842 piece to a $ 229 piece, not fair?).
This is always a tough one... is a used VW '68 Beetle better than a new VW Jetta or at least as good because of the price difference? Even if the Behringer was free, I wouldn't listen to it... they sound bad.



One question not answered was if comparing the Behringer to an Ashly XR4001, whats your thoughts about this? Are the really comparable at all?
From a features list point of view they are not really comparable, but I'd use the Ashly if it can do what you need.


Widget

Mike Caldwell
03-18-2007, 05:17 PM
Hello
I just looked up the specs from the Behringer web site and the Peavey web site. As for dynamic range the input to output the Behringer list 109db and the Peavey list 105db. Peavey list the measurement on the A weighted scale, Behringer dose not say what scale the measurement was made at.
I'll know in a few days what the Peavey is really all about.

Mike Caldwell

Steve Mac
03-18-2007, 07:15 PM
hey...

I'll be using this in a "fixed" installation.
I agree with Mike that I would be hesistant in a live setting with this product. I know there were a bad batch of these things early on with the output jacks mounting to the pcb board and I know they fixed it...maybe last summer?

I haven't heard the Ashley mentioned.
Just my opinion of course but for the price of this dcx2496
it's a no brainer and sounds great.
I've wasted more money on a night of tequila drinking than this thing costs.
:)

Flodstroem
03-19-2007, 01:31 AM
hey...

I'll be using this in a "fixed" installation.
I agree with Mike that I would be hesistant in a live setting with this product. I know there were a bad batch of these things early on with the output jacks mounting to the pcb board and I know they fixed it...maybe last summer?

I haven't heard the Ashley mentioned.
Just my opinion of course but for the price of this dcx2496
it's a no brainer and sounds great.
I've wasted more money on a night of tequila drinking than this thing costs.
:)

Yes Im going to use it on a "fixed" installation too, so it wont be any dramatically problem if a failure occur. Thanks for the tip of the bad bach, must remember that.

Yes I have also done some tequila "knack" drinking nights , he he he :hyp::spin: And dont talk about the day after....... :bash:. Could easily be an expensive affair (phuuu...), then beer is much better though :cheers:

hmolwitz
03-19-2007, 01:14 PM
I have seen a couple of different brands mentioned here, anyone have experience with the BSS stuff?
I have a line on a PS-8810.
Hoping to use it as a crossover.
Thanks
Harry

Mike Caldwell
03-19-2007, 01:34 PM
Hello
BSS equipment is very good and well regarded in the pro use market. The PS-8810 is not really a true speaker processing DSP unit but more of a audio routing matrix processor for installations. It does have high and low pass filltering that could be used as band pass outputs with different filters assigned to different outputs to create a crossover. The only way to program it is with a PC.


Mike Caldwell

hmolwitz
03-19-2007, 02:12 PM
I perused the manual and it looked feasible to do this, perhaps it will be overkill, but the price was right, a bit lower than the Behringer at retail, I'll let you know how it works out.
Harry

Mike Caldwell
03-19-2007, 03:27 PM
Hello
It sounds like you got a very good deal!!!!!!!!!!


Mike Caldwell

boputnam
03-19-2007, 06:09 PM
..digital stuff done
right sounds colorless ...A truism. You got that right.


The track record of Behringer just does not instill and lot of confidence in me. There's that, and sound quality for me is lacking.


boputnam, are you aware of the price differences between a DN9848 and a DCX2496? To be honest, they are not comparable in my eyes (comparing a $ 4,842 piece to a $ 229 piece, not fair?). The XTA wasnt cheap either.Yessir, I am COMPLETELY aware. I went through a "wow, this Behringer stuff is really affordable" phase. Now, someone else owns that gear of mine (thank-you eBay!!) Believing my ears cost me lots of money, but the results of moving up the food chain are quite frankly, stunning. I cannot "afford" to go back. Look at it this way, if you make the right purchase, the gear is with you for years - amortizing that cost over +5yrs makes it easier to rationalize.


... Even if the Behringer was free, I wouldn't listen to it... they sound bad.

From a features list point of view they are not really comparable, but I'd use the Ashly if it can do what you need.Dammit, Widget!! :bash: You nailed it... :applaud:


BSS equipment is very good and well regarded in the pro use market. Yes, it is. Their Minidrive" units are my 3rd favorite, after the KT and xta's. My biggest "issue" is with the way BSS has the PEQ's parsed amongst the I/O. There are only so many allowed, and if you use many on the O's there are not many left for the I's. The KT has 6 PEQ's on each O and 12 PEQ's on each I. That there is powerful...

scott fitlin
03-19-2007, 07:03 PM
I have the BSS 366t, its good, better than DBX, or Behringer, I have heard XTA, and KT. With DSP, cheaper products result in BAD sound.

I like the BSS for its front panel controls, and it allowed me to do some things I wanted to. I also didnt want to have to use a laptop every time i wanted to or needed to make an adjustment. Originally, I was going to get the Lake Contour, but, you can only program via a laptop and SiaSoft Smaartlive.

Digital signal processing has gotten much better than it was just a few short years ago. And you have to take time to really dial it in just right.

But, I am the oddball. I still prefer analog signal processing the most. I have heard many DSP controlled systems by this point in time, some are very good, alot I have heard are just bad and may have to do with who is using it rather than what it is. But, the one thing even the best digitally controlled systems havent done yet, for me, is to sound natural. I have heard dsp controlled systems that have excellent imaging, very focused, and VERY clean, but, still has a somewhat synthetic sound to my ears.

Of course, I have no doubt, they will yet again come out with digital gear that sounds better than what we have now.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-19-2007, 07:16 PM
the one thing even the best digitally controlled systems havent done yet, for me, is to sound natural. I have heard dsp controlled systems that have excellent imaging, very focused, and VERY clean, but, still has a somewhat synthetic sound to my ears.



Interesting observation Scott. Have you heard a Deqx?

Ken

scott fitlin
03-19-2007, 07:40 PM
Interesting observation Scott. Have you heard a Deqx?

KenNo, everything I have heard is pro gear, and pro sound.

I know they say the DEQX is all that, I am not commenting on it as I have NO listening experience with it.

So far, everything that I have heard, some sounds very good, alot has not, but none really natural, not to my ears.

Even if the DEQX does sound 100% to my satisfaction, it wouldnt be suitable for my system, as its intended for 2 speaker, 2 channel stereo.

I guess my next digital box would have to be Lake, or whatever they have thats TOTL at that time!

Ken Pachkowsky
03-19-2007, 08:12 PM
No, everything I have heard is pro gear, and pro sound.



No worries Scott, it was not a loaded question.:)

When one reads another's description you compare that description to your own.

I would have to say I agree on the imaging, focus and cleanliness. Could you clarify synthetic?

I suspect you mean the difference between a high quality drum machine and a real kit?

Ken

Flodstroem
03-20-2007, 12:49 AM
Yessir, I am COMPLETELY aware. I went through a "wow, this Behringer stuff is really affordable" phase. Now, someone else owns that gear of mine (thank-you eBay!!) Believing my ears cost me lots of money, but the results of moving up the food chain are quite frankly, stunning. I cannot "afford" to go back. Look at it this way, if you make the right purchase, the gear is with you for years - amortizing that cost over +5yrs makes it easier to rationalize.

Its absolutely clear to me that a $ 4,842 gear will have an outstanding performance compare to a $ 229 gear, but performance wasnt my intention at this very first step but it was for options and possibilities :). My intension is to buy something for to see how this type of gear could work with my ideas and also to see if I could handle and manage a digital equipment with all its programming options and all the infinitive possibilities to compensate for nearly every variables what came up as room acoustics, loobings, delayings etc.... and this for a decent amount of money due to my plan was to sell an XR4001 (yes Bo, thanks for eBay) and buy two DCX2496. Okay this was a stupid thoughts of mine, but whats the alternative? Do nothing? :(
I am in the need of 2 x 5 x-over channels and this was the first gear that came to my mind and what also could easily pass the WAF factor. I have a low budget for this type of gear and only alternative was a low budget gear that have those options I am in the need of. Also I dont know of any gear like this that have the option of 2 x 5 or 6 x-over channels (in one case) and because of that I have to buy two items for to get those options:blah:
Regards

scott fitlin
03-20-2007, 09:02 AM
I would have to say I agree on the imaging, focus and cleanliness. Could you clarify synthetic?

I suspect you mean the difference between a high quality drum machine and a real kit?

KenWell, for one thing, the VHF is different sounding through a DSP signal processor than an analog processor. The splash of a cymbal just sounds more like a cymbal through analog units than dsp. DSP still adds an artifact, like a slight metallic hash, its just not there with analog. Attack and decay through analog sounds natural, you hear the stick hit the cymbal, the fundamental note, the reverb around the sound, then the decay of sound. DSP is abrupt, sounds chopped off, no natural shimmering decay, I dont hear the same air and space around musical notes. Especially HF sounds. Analog highs have a more delicate sound, that I think is what VHF should sound like.

The midrange! Vocals sound so real, so smooth, they just hang right in front of the speakers using analog processing. DSP mids still sound a bit tinny. DSP seems to shift the timbral pitch of the mids up, sort of hollow sounding low mid, everything gets pushed up into the horn. Like turning the brightness control on your TV up too high.

Low mids and midbass. Snares, drum fills, keyboards, everything sounds realistic and natural to me through analog, well recorded snares sound like what a snare drum sounds like, similar to what I would hear in a music store actually hearing a real snare drum. Analog is just richer, and fuller sounding, male vocal comes through analog processing with all the throatiness and chestiness of a real male voice. I have heard live bands through dsp controlled systems, and the drums and cymbals just didnt sound like themselves through the speakers, yet walking closer to the stage, you could immediately tell the difference between what you heard directly off the stage drum set -vs- what was coming out of the speakers mic,d live! What was coming though the speakers distinctly sounded electronic and artificial.

Bass. Analog bass is full sounding, each note starts and stops, you hear each bass note in its own space, its deeper sounding, and much more natural. DSP bass sounds plastic to me. Playing recordings of jazz, with stuff Im familiar with, analog just puts it out in a clearer, fuller, more believable sound. Better upper bass detail, and superior, but realistic transient information through analog, just what I hear.

And, with every dsp system I have heard, including what I was using, dsp controlled sound still blares at you, analog just sits back, and the music flows out, with no electronic glare.

For me, DSP has gotten better, but still has quite a ways to go before Im convinced they got it totally right.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Well, for one thing, the VHF is different...

Very thorough explanation Scott. Thanks

You have me tempted to jump back to my HRX for a quick comparative listen. I have been using the dual Deqx system for over a year.

Indeed, very tempted.:hmm: The only thing you mentioned that I have noticed ever so slightly is the sound of a cymbal crash or ride. The timbre is slightly hollow.

Ken

Hoerninger
03-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Well, ...

Thank you for writing down your observations.
___________
Peter

scott fitlin
03-20-2007, 10:15 AM
Well, you do have a different dsp than what I have. So, right there, thats a difference sonically. And you have different speakers too.

As I said, I have only experience with pro gear. They say the Lake is supposed to be very non-digital sounding. Havent heard it, cant make any comments.

One of the live systems, was ALL XTA processors, VERY highly regarded by the pro audio community. I have also heard Vertec, and a few others.

I really worked with my BSS, and I thought the same thing as what you said, slight difference, I got this thing sounding quite good. People also said, Hey, this sounds good. I really was into what I was hearing and also thought it was quite close to analog, differences were slight!

Till I went back to analog, and I immediately recognized what I was hearing.

I cant say what exactly you would hear, analog -vs- digital, but, youll never know until you try.

Chas
03-20-2007, 10:20 AM
For me, DSP has gotten better, but still has quite a ways to go before Im convinced they got it totally right.

Very nice post Scott. I feel the same way when comparing vinyl to CD at home. Mind you, SACD is a real step forward in the right direction, I only wish there were more titles to choose from.:banghead:

scott fitlin
03-20-2007, 10:27 AM
Very nice post Scott. I feel the same way when comparing vinyl to CD at home. Mind you, SACD is a real step forward in the right direction, I only wish there were more titles to choose from.:banghead:Thank you.

I have heard SACD, I thought it was great. But where is SACD today? I mean, it almost doesnt exist. And not much pop music catalog.

We are being pushed, no, make that forced into downloads of MP3, and WAV files, for use through iPods.

I only wish for the art of well recorded music to remain alive at this point, and availability of music catalog. In whatever form is in current use.

But, when I listen to records from the 80,s or even the early 90,s, they are better, but, thats over with, doesnt exist anymore. So, for me, I strive to get the best performance out of what the current mediums are, simply because I have no other choice. If playing current popular music is what you want to do.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-20-2007, 11:18 AM
Okay this was a stupid thoughts of mine, but whats the alternative? Do nothing? :(

Also I dont know of any gear like this that have the option of 2 x 5 or 6 x-over channels (in one case) and because of that I have to buy two items for to get those options.

Regards

First, your idea is not stupid!

In your position, you don't have any other affordable choice.

I have never used or heard a 2496....who here has? I know 2 member's on the forum who use them and are quite satisfied. I will let them chime in if they so desire?

If possible, keep the 4001 as a backup, grab a couple of 2496's and try them out. Be your own judge. At 600 bucks for a pair the risk is minimal and the payoff could be substancial. If you don't like them, get rid of them. If you like their basic function and sound, they are easy to upgrade.

Be well and good luck.

Ken

boputnam
03-20-2007, 01:42 PM
...performance wasnt my intention at this very first step but it was for options and possibilities :). My intension is to buy something for to see how this type of gear could work with my ideas and also to see if I could handle and manage a digital equipment with all its programming options and all the infinitive possibilities to compensate for nearly every variables what came up as room acoustics, lobings, delayings etc.... Ah...

With that clarification (at least for me... :p ) the Behringer could be a good first step. I cannot speak to it's "ease of programming", but Behringer make user-friendly gear, so as long as the manual translators were up to their task, it should be quite sensible. It should give you a good idea of what this technology is capable of, and whether it is what you want.

I humbly suggest you start with a modest two-way, bi-amped setup to get familiar with the results and how the device behaves. This may take some days of "tuning", listening, re-tuning, etc.

Also - how are you going to measure the response(s) as you dial-in all the filters and delays? :blink: If you are going to this 5-way, cinco-amped configuration it is imperative you have the ability and experience to properly "tune" the system. IME, this will almost certainly require some form of laptop supported sophisticated acoustics analysis software.

Ian Mackenzie
03-20-2007, 01:54 PM
Unless full active was a must why not use the 2496 or any other active xover to create the most idea set of filters. If it works then go the next step.

You have the option of building a set of passive filters around the idealised active set of curves or perhaps upgrading to a better active. Any loudspeaker can still sound crap no matter how good the front end and maybe you might find the need to review your driver /horn options.

Purchase of a multichannel DAC or CODAC would appear a sensible way of improving the A/D D/A conversions. But there appears to be quite a mumber of "good" loudspeaker processers around now from Yamaha, Lem, DBX so take you pic.

The acoustic dimensions and sheer power of a full high power digital active sound system most likely outweigh the negatives. I mean I dont hear Jack complaining about his 2496 on that nicely engineered system of his.

http://www.cannononline.com.au/catalogue/c18/c54

boputnam
03-20-2007, 02:14 PM
I am using the Behringer Ultradrive DCX2496 in my system, and absolutely love it!! ... I have no issues with performance.


It does invert from input to output, so be careful!!That is good to know.


... but as I said, I only use it below (emphasis added) ~80hz, so I can not comment on it's sound quality above say 120hz or so...An important caveat to the appraisal. Thanks.


Worth trying? YES, I think definately so. Just from the stand point of time-alignment...This is probably the single most important attribute of these.


It's never a waste of time to experiment...That there is a truism. And, eBay makes the experiments virtually risk free. Buy it right, try it, and if it's not what you like, sell it right. A terrifically liquid market for audio gear...

hmolwitz
03-21-2007, 01:35 PM
I picked that up last night and configured the crossover portion in an hour or so, no time to hook up anything to it, I will let you know what I think, but I think it will take some time to dial it in, and some measurement equipment.
I liked the
Harry

JBL 4645
03-22-2007, 11:54 AM
So dos JBL-Urei, do there own loudspeaker management system?

And if so at what cost, you see Iím not made of money.

tdrugeon
03-22-2007, 04:21 PM
BSS FDS-366 on ebay, with a "by it now" price of 1300Ä :

http://cgi.ebay.fr/BSS-FDS-366-omnidrive-compact-plus_W0QQitemZ140097344822QQcategoryZ104337QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

scott fitlin
03-22-2007, 05:33 PM
How much is 1300 euros in american dollars?

I have a 366t, Ill let it go for $1900 + shipping!

JBL 4645
03-22-2007, 11:56 PM
That model looks nice but its out of my price range that would take nearly a years saving just to buy one, so lucky for the Behringer. Iíve more or less started saving this week so all I need is another two weeks at the most before I have the funds to buy the first one.

UreiCollector
03-23-2007, 05:22 AM
I know JBL has produced active crossovers, but as far as a JBL/Urei bass management system......they never produced anything that I am aware.

The biggest cost hurdle isn't in the cost of the DCX2496, but in the cost of additional amplifiers. As is always the "downside" to active crossovers....COST. :)

boputnam
03-23-2007, 07:49 AM
The biggest cost hurdle isn't in the cost of the DCX2496, but in the cost of additional amplifiers. As is always the "downside" to active crossovers....COST. :)Yea, there is that, for certain. But as you know, once you cross that "threshold" the improvement on control is compelling. There is also a tangible increase in efficiency - my mains gain +10dB in sensitivity, active vs passive mode. That saves a lot of amp power...

JBL 4645
03-23-2007, 03:44 PM
Iíve doing some thinking about the loudspeaker management system, can this unit operate in three ways, that is the dynamics on the soundtrack from the softest sound to medium and loudest with different threshold settings to look at the front mix and say arr, thatís playing softly and thereís quite a good deal of complex sounds happing on the left and right.

For example 2010 the year we make contact, where Floyd is talking to a government person on the outside of the white house, the scene is complex that dialogue level and partly the sound effects in the centre channel drown out the left and right when set-up with basic 75dbc for each of the three channels, it needs something special to make more sense of the Dolby film mix.

boputnam
03-24-2007, 06:46 PM
Iíve doing some thinking about the loudspeaker management system, can this unit operate in three ways, that is the dynamics on the soundtrack from the softest sound to medium and loudest with different threshold settings ....You are describing the function of a compressor.

JBL 4645
03-24-2007, 08:02 PM
Yes I guess so.

boputnam
03-24-2007, 10:29 PM
You are describing the function of a compressor.If that is your wish, the DCX2496 is not "specialized" in that function. It does have a Limiter function, which is more of a "hard-knee" algorithm, which will not provide the more subtle gain support you describe.

If you are truly after a subtle, warm, soft-knee support of gain, I can only suggest the Drawmer 1968 (http://www.drawmer.com/1968.html). This dood will blow you away.

The Drawmer 1968 is so subtle you question whether it's active in the signal path. Yet, switch to "bypass" and you'll know how wonderfully effective and transparent this tube compressor is. The 12AX7's on the output stage are genius.

I am a serious fan of this unit. Show after show, it blows me away in it's effectiveness and ease of use.

Mike Caldwell
03-25-2007, 06:23 AM
Ahhh.....Drawmer.
I have the 1960 in my main insert rack and Like Bo says you know it's working but you can't really here it....if that makes sense.
I also have their DL241, DL441 and DS404 units. If you want to save a little money and still get an excellent compressor take a look at the DL241. Not saying it sounds as transparent as a 1960 or 1968 but still very nice!


Mike Caldwell

boputnam
03-25-2007, 12:16 PM
Ahhh.....Drawmer.
I have the 1960 in my main insert rack and Like Bo says you know it's working but you can't really hear it....if that makes sense.
I also have their DL241, DL441 and DS404 units. If you want to save a little money and still get an excellent compressor take a look at the DL241. Not saying it sounds as transparent as a 1960 or 1968 but still very nice!Yea, Mike...

My 1968's live across the Mix inserts in both my racks - it is such a great sound, and tool. I too use DL241's in individual instrument inserts or across the instrument Group buss - they are wonderful in those applications. I would love to have nothing but 1968's, but the 241's are plenty fine. Drawmer makes some really, really great gear.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-31-2007, 05:00 PM
For me, DSP has gotten better, but still has quite a ways to go before Im convinced they got it totally right.

Scott

I told you you peaked my curiosity. I hooked up the HRX after a year of running the dual Deqx system. I'll be damned.:blink:

Enough said.:hmm:

Ken

boputnam
03-31-2007, 05:08 PM
I hooked up the HRX after a year of running the dual Deqx system. I'll be damned.:blink:

Enough said.:hmm: Not so fast, cowboy...

That is sort of ambiguous - what did you hear...?

Ken Pachkowsky
03-31-2007, 05:35 PM
Not so fast, cowboy...

That is sort of ambiguous - what did you hear...?

Look who's lurking on this thread:D

To be honest, I like them both. What surprised however, was how great the HRX sounded.

After a couple of hours listening to several of my favorite CD's I have to admit the high end sounds slightly more natural. I really noticed it on cymbals and in the harmonics on an acoustic guitar.

However, the sound stage using the fir filters on Deqx is more focused and perhaps just slightly more dimensional. He is right however, it does sound slightly metallic. I was quite surprised. You have a great ear Scott. If I had not switched back and forth several times I doubt that I could have picked it up.

Makes me wonder if I should just stop trying to find "IT"

Nice to hear from you Bo.

PS: The house sold.........don't ask.:banghead:

Ken

Ian Mackenzie
03-31-2007, 11:51 PM
Ken,

So why do you think so many pro digital stuff and now blended to Vari Tube sound controls?

You have to decide if being hung up on the convenience of DIGITAL is more important (powerful) than the ultimate refinement of ANALOGUE.

I agree digital has improved but there is still good and bad digital as far as recording and equipment go but the pro stuff and the people that drive the gear are getting better at it.

I have some really good Dyaudio monitors on loan (sorry..yes its true I dlisten to other things. These are for near field evaluations) and it quite revealing of variations in production standards and the sound they wanted to impart using a referencr like Lavry DA convertor. The good stuff is wonderful, the bad is terrible.

But using a good universal DVD player or your lazy susan you really are non the wiser......That can be a good thing but this the a problem I have with chopping up the whole spectrum digitally like a Pizza.

We'll throw a bit of this on here and bit of that on there and there you go have some of that for good measure. Then you have devils own job and getting it all to working and balanced. The success rate of the average Dude sorting all this ain't real flash. Its just easlier and safer to buy some WAF friendly stuff.

Steve Mac
04-01-2007, 03:51 PM
Ken,
That can be a good thing but this the a problem I have with chopping up the whole spectrum digitally like a Pizza.

This reminds me of Gary Kasparov when he was discussing IBMs Big Blue.
Paraphrasing: "At some point there is a quality in quantity".

24 bit resolution in a digital converter is somewhere down where the noise floor of a resistor lies. Given a high enough sample rate, enough resolution,
rock stable word clock(jitter), proper dithering, etc....it's my belief that most of the die hard analog fans, like the studio heads USED to be, will eventually be won over. But, finding a dirt cheap way to transfer audio will never be accepted by the "it has to cost XXX amount of money" enterprisers.

Steve Mac
04-01-2007, 04:03 PM
Ken,

So why do you think so many pro digital stuff and now blended to Vari Tube sound controls?
...because they like the coloration or effect added by thermionic components.



You have to decide if being hung up on the convenience of DIGITAL is more important (powerful) than the ultimate refinement of ANALOGUE.

So, the argument is no longer this. And before I get flamed, no one is saying that there is not refinement in analog. I'm just saying there is plenty of refinement in pro digital gear.

Ian Mackenzie
04-01-2007, 07:01 PM
I think it depends who you are and who you are talking about.

The valve based hi end studio gear is definately out there.

Digital can sound cold as opposed to the old multitrack.

jerv
04-28-2007, 05:55 AM
I didn't see this thread until now - whan a casual search revealed it.
(Sorry about the long post that now follows).

I have been using the Beringer DCX2496 in my gear. Bearing in mind that this is a $250 cheapo unit, it does offer some remarkable abilities. It does, however, have its limitations, but IMO it's weak points can (mostly) be avoided.

IMO, electronic crossovers - when done right - are almost always audibly superior to passive networks. Unfortunately, this always means carefully optimized filter transfer characteristics, matched to the actual frequency response, rolloff and phase characteristics etc of the actual driver units in your actual box. Measuring equipment and some means of crossover optimization is a must. The ability to build your own electronics is another must.


(Standard generic commercially available electronic dividing networks (which usually have LR24 slopes) will in my experience seldom give correct transfer functions with (most) actual speaker units. A commmon occurance for folks auditioning (the same) speaker systems with active or traditional passive crossovers is to blame the audible differences on the electronics themselves rather than the changes that were introduced into the system by the different transfer functions.)

The Behringer DCX presents an attractive way for obtaining an electronic crossover optimized to your actual speakers without having to construct and build your own electronics. However, this convinience comes at a price. IMO the sound of properly built analog electronic crossovers are superior to the Behringer - even if the transfer characteristics are quite identical.

But I will not write off the Behringer. The unit is cheap and flexible. I use it for fast prototyping. When a design of mine becomes a keeper, I make a decent analog filter for it - passive or (mostly) electronic.

If you wish to use the Behringer as a more permanent fixture in your setup, keep this in mind:

1. The Behringer is noisy. There is no master volume control. With power amps of normal sensitivity/gain and efficient speakers, the hiss level will IMO be objectionable if you not introduce a volume control between the Behringer and your power amps. Keep in mind that for a 3-way stereo system, this has to be a 6-channel close tracking volume control - not easy to implement. There exists some 6-channel electronic volume controls as DIY kits, but they easily cost alomst the same as the Behringer unit.

2. The Behringer can correct for large differences in sensitivity between units - for example 90 dB/W for a bass unit compared to a 112 db/W horn driver. But it uses a lot of DSP processing power to do that, and the sound quality suffers. Sensitivity corrections can just as easily be accomplished with passive resistors (L-pads) directly on the speakers - with audibly better results.

3. The Behringer is very flexible, and has a multitude of adjustments. With it, you can accomplish just about any transfer function. But for good results, it is totally necessary to measure the speaker individually - both without and with filtering. Measuring equipment is a must. I also doubt that it is really possible to get consistent, good results without a crossover optimization package. I use lspCAD.

The Behringer is a complex tool in a cheap package. The low price can fool us into believing that it is a unit that is simple to implement and use. It is not. But used correctly, I would have no reservation to recommend it.

Ian Mackenzie
04-28-2007, 08:11 AM
Well that is telling it like it is.

boputnam
04-28-2007, 10:47 AM
The Behringer is noisy. Correct.


There is no master volume control.Uh, you are looking at it wrong - it does. You do this two ways:

1. With the Inputs gains. You can adjust each individually - if you match them by say -6dB, it is as if you "turned down all the outputs" by -6dB. According to the text, "The setting range is from -15 to +15 dB." I have attached the Block Diagram, p4 of the Manual - see RED arrow.

I routinely do this on my KT DN9848 (a real nice DSP...) - moving between different mains with differing sensitivities requires maintaining the right gain structure to the amps. I have presets modelled for each "stack" of choice.

2. You can also do it with each Outputs gains, too - see GREEN arrow.

That said, -15 dB on the Inputs gains ain't enough - I bypass the unit all-together. :barf:

boputnam
04-28-2007, 10:57 AM
The Behringer can correct for large differences in sensitivity between units - for example 90 dB/W for a bass unit compared to a 112 db/W horn driver. But it uses a lot of DSP processing power to do that, and the sound quality suffers. Sensitivity corrections can just as easily be accomplished with passive resistors (L-pads) directly on the speakers - with audibly better results.I don't understand this comment about using a lot of "DSP processing power"...? Why?

All you need to do, when your making your response measurements, is adjust the input gain to each of the Outputs (again, GREEN arrow, above) as needed to match sensitivities - this IS a simple pad, and is in the signal path before any of the DSP.

Maybe I'm confused? :blink:

Mike Caldwell
04-29-2007, 06:13 AM
It looks like the gain/level adjustments on both the inputs and outputs take place in the digital signal path after the input converters and before the output converters. That being the case any adjustments may indeed use up DSP power. The noise mentioned most likely is coming from the analog sections of the unit.
Never played with the Ultradrive so I'm just kinda of make general assumptions!


Mike Caldwell

jerv
04-29-2007, 08:31 AM
Correct.

Uh, you are looking at it wrong - it does. You do this two ways:



Master Volume Control: Maybe I wasn't clear enough or didn't use the right description. There are +/- 15dB gain adjustements on all channels - but that was not what I meant. The Behringer is a pro unit, and by itself has no means for adjusting listening volume.

To minimize noise, you will want to keep the signal levels on the Behringer's inputs/outputs as close to clipping as possible. That means a volume control after the Behringer - between the Behringer and your power amps - is a must. And that volume control has to be a 6-channel unit for a stereo 3-way system.

The ideal config would be a digital signal into the DCX with the DCX feeding its outputs into a 6 channel volume control before each amp.

The less ideal config would be use a high-gain preamp feeding the DCX' analog inputs. (You need a fairly large signal the analog inputs in order to maximize signal-to-noise-ratio. Most likely, your consumer preamp is a Ė10 dB device with RCA outputs. The Behringer is a pro +4 dB device That meants your signal is about 12 dB low. You need to amplify the signal 12 dB - if not your signal to noise ratio will be worse by 12 db, and you also loose those 12 dbs of digital resolution).

You then feed the DCX signal through a 6-channel attenuation network before the amps.

boputnam
04-29-2007, 08:36 AM
It looks like the gain/level adjustments on both the inputs and outputs take place in the digital signal path after the input converters and before the output converters. That being the case any adjustments may indeed use up DSP power. Hi, Mike...

Yea - they are right after the A/D converters on the Inputs, but not on the Outputs (er, the Outputs' inputs, that is... :) ). But, they are before any of the real processing, and certainly do not "use a lot of DSP processing power".

Even though I am no Behringer advocate, I couldn't stand by and see their device trashed that way. :no: There is no way gain adjustments will bring this unit to it's knees. That's nutters. I'd be nice to know what "jerv" has experienced to prompt his comment, and how he presently goes about matching sensitivities? Dunno... :dont-know

-----

:offtopic:

Behringer are copy cats. This unit has most every feature my KT unit has at less than half the cost. Behringer loads-up on reverse-engineered / copied features and then finds the least costly way to get there. Good for them, however the result is less-than-pleasing sonic quality. The better units (KT, xta...) design-in the features they want and then find the best quality electronics to get it done - these are damned pricy. The sonic quality of these units and Behringer could not be further apart. That said, Behringer can most certainly provide good control on gain structure.

johnaec
04-29-2007, 08:43 AM
To minimize noise, you will want to keep the signal levels on the Behringer's inputs/outputs as close to clipping as possible. That means a volume control after the Behringer - between the Behringer and your power amps - is a must. And that volume control has to be a 6-channel unit for a stereo 3-way system.Wouldn't this be the same as using the volume controls on the power amps themselves, (assuming they have them)? Of course, they'd have to be individually adjusted. This would also guarantee the best S/N ratio out of the amps.

John

Mike Caldwell
04-29-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm with Bo on the whole Behringer way of doing business and will not let any Behringer every creep into my racks!

As far as gain structure goes I personally don't agree with thinking of needing to drive your whole signal path at +20 to keep the signal to noise at a respectable level, ie not hearing hiss from your speakers short of putting your ear into the horn! Running the whole signal path that hot gives you a good S/N but sacrifices head room of the line level components. Having good headroom in the entire path equals good, clean, open sound. It just requires good components that individually all have good S/N properties were you don't need to compensate for a poor S/N piece by attenuating you power amps by 20db or so and then make it up some where else.

Mike Caldwell

boputnam
04-29-2007, 09:08 AM
To minimize noise, you will want to keep the signal levels on the Behringer's inputs/outputs as close to clipping as possible. I remain confused, and concur with Mike on this, for sure:


Running the whole signal path that hot gives you a good S/N but sacrifices head room of the line level components. Having good headroom in the entire path equals good, clean, open sound.

I have my gain structure configured so that Unity at the desk is unity in the DSP is Unity on the amps. Anything else and you have no idea how close your amps are to their clip threshold. I never run anything as high as you describe. Need headroom, man...


Most likely, your consumer preamp is a Ė10 dB device with RCA outputs. Uh, no consumer gear here, pard'...

Anyway, jerv, it would still be nice to know what you you experienced that made you say "it uses a lot of DSP processing power". Did Scotty call-up from engineering and say "Captian jerv", she can't take much more of this...!! :rotfl:

Or, are you using your filters in some fashion to "get this done"? I still don't see how even that approach would use much "processing", nor how you would measure that, other than simply running out of filters...

Zilch
04-29-2007, 10:59 AM
The problem is that the gains are programmed.

You can't adjust them all conveniently or simultaneously, like a "Volume" knob.

I do it at the source, and accept that I'm giving up some resolution; it's a balancing act.

Yeah, my amps aren't running at zero attenuation, either, meaning they're too big, too.... :p

jerv
04-29-2007, 01:39 PM
I remain confused, and concur with Mike on this, for sure:



I have my gain structure configured so that Unity at the desk is unity in the DSP is Unity on the amps. Anything else and you have no idea how close your amps are to their clip threshold. I never run anything as high as you describe. Need headroom, man...

Uh, no consumer gear here, pard'...

Anyway, jerv, it would still be nice to know what you you experienced that made you say "it uses a lot of DSP processing power". Did Scotty call-up from engineering and say "Captian jerv", she can't take much more of this...!! :rotfl:

Or, are you using your filters in some fashion to "get this done"? I still don't see how even that approach would use much "processing", nor how you would measure that, other than simply running out of filters...


Iíll try to relate my experiences. And if I sometimes comes across less than clear Ė please pardon my bad English (even worse that my bad Norwegian).;)

The Behringer DCX is a pro device, and is easier to implement with pro equipment. The levels, gains and interconnects match. With consumer equipment (which I (maybe wrongly?:) ) assumes that most of us use), it is another matter.

Many of the adverse comments on the Behringer is about noise. IMO the hiss from the Behringer can be objectionable. For the average user Ė with consumer equipment Ė it is important to realize:
1) for best results S/N-wise, the Behringer really needs a hotter signal than most ordinary preamps can provide. Volume control in a preamp in front of the Behringer worsens the situation.
2) for best results, you really need some sort of attenuation between the Behringer and your power amps. (This can of course be accomplished with input volume controls in the amps Ė but this method would not suffice for a volume control)

The best way to use the Behringer in most consumer-orientated settings would IMO be to use the digital input (thereby avoiding problem 1), and to use a 6-channel volume control between the Behringer and the amps.

The gain controls on the Behringer is ďinsideĒ the ADC/DAC, and work digitally. This means all attenuation corresponds to a bitloss. An attenuation of 30dB means 5bit. The unit uses 24bit so with an attenuation of -30db you only have 19bit left for the signal. IMO, this bit loss is audible, especially at higher frequencies. The sound gets a bit harsher.


For myself, I therefore in practice use passive resistors/L-pads on the most efficient unit (typically horns) to avoid this potential problem. I only use the attenuation on the Behringer for fine-tuning. This also has the added convenience to lessen the noise/hiss. For me, this is a good compromise.

I still actually recommend the DCX, even though it is a complex device and not easy to use in most settings.

boputnam
04-29-2007, 05:33 PM
Iíll try to relate my experiences. And if I sometimes comes across less than clear Ė please pardon my bad English (even worse that my bad Norwegian).;) Only so long as you pardon OUR bad English... :p


With consumer equipment (which I (maybe wrongly?:) ) assume that most of us use)...No, you are largely correct. However, few here venture into the domain of DSP's for "consumer" use, so when the topic comes-up, us SR guys pile-in just to feel the love... :o:


...for best results S/N-wise, the Behringer really needs a hotter signal than most ordinary preamps can provide. Volume control in a preamp in front of the Behringer worsens the situation.Every Behringer piece of outboard gear I've used presents this problem - as example, their C/L's fire less sensatively than does REAL gear, so you have to reduce the threshold below that needed for comparable gear to get the expected response, then use make-up gain to restore the gain structure. Nutters... :screwy:


The best way to use the Behringer in most consumer-orientated settings ...But this is the rub. These, as you posted, sound crummy. One might get away with using them in SR where room AR is already so difficult that the benefit of their use just might (JUST might...) offset the pain of their sonic quality, but why-in-the-world would one ever deploy these in an audiophile setting where there can be no redeeming value. Yikes...


IMO, this bit loss is audible, especially at higher frequencies. The sound gets a bit harsher.You have nailed their character there. I would add that at increasing "effect" their sonic quality degrades. That is, if a BE must use what is in the house racks, it is best to restrain the C/L from firing too hard - keep their gain reduction to at-most -5dB above threshold - otherwise, the sound begins to really suffer (even worse than their nameplate would suggest...).


I still actually recommend the DCX, even though it is a complex device and not easy to use in most settings.I don't find them complex, myself, but that is just my opinion.

Thanks for the expanded detail - it might prove handy for Behringer users. :thmbsup:

Mr. Widget
04-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Thanks for the expanded detail - it might prove handy for Behringer users. :thmbsup:I'd suggest a pair of quality ear plugs would also be helpful for those who must use a Behringer device. :D


Widget

boputnam
04-29-2007, 05:43 PM
I'd suggest a pair of quality ear plugs would also be helpful for those who must use a Behringer device. :DDammit, Widget...!! :bash:

Sorry - I just hadn't DONE that in a while (and just came off a gig THICK with Behringer outboard gear... :barf: )

lfh
04-29-2007, 11:50 PM
I'd suggest a pair of quality ear plugs would also be helpful for those who must use a Behringer device. :D


:)

That's a brilliant idea -- and it solves the problem of gain optimization:

http://www.ultimateears.com/custom/ER-9_earplugs.htm
http://www.ultimateears.com/custom/ER-15_earplugs.htm
http://www.ultimateears.com/custom/ER-25_earplugs.htm

:)

(Seriously, I intend to buy a Behringer crossover for experimentation, even though my past experiences with Behringer have not been good ones. I hope they have improved both their moral and quality since the mid-90:s...)

boputnam
04-30-2007, 07:18 AM
(Seriously, I intend to buy a Behringer crossover for experimentation, even though my past experiences with Behringer have not been good ones. I hope they have improved both their moral and quality since the mid-90:s...)Give us a report, if you do!

JBL 4645
05-03-2007, 01:06 AM
Just ordered one of many that will be addressing the many needs of many audio problems in the home cinema with easy and flexibility this will offer an affordable solution in such a fancy package all for £174.98p

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/BEHR-DCX2496_L.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/BEHR-DCX2496_B.jpg

The idea came to me last year after seeing what modifications the Empire Leicester square cinema screen #1 done to her, with an impressive new JBL sound system array and amplification, but what caught my attention was the loudspeaker management system from dbx the dbx 4600 was a bit out of my reach due to cost so nearly a few months had passed that was until I stumbled across the (Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System) at Turnkey here in the UK one of the most affordable dealers for audio equipment.

So the plan is to start off in the next ten days or so that is until Turnkey get one in and then send it off to me via next day delivery. I plan to use the first unit for the LCR with ABC inputs and 6 outputs 123456 123 will be used for the fronts along with the cross over filters and EQ and many other features it has to address the problems as fast and as painless as can be.

The fronts are a very complex sounding combination and I need to program the settings to allow the left and right to be slightly reduced in level with one of compressors or limiters same goes with the centre channel. I will be trying the (Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496) out with some of the most complex Dolby film mixes until I have it within satisfactory playback levels within the room.

Additional units would be used for surround arrays there is a around x10 JBL control surrounding the room at present and all need to be addressed as well as sub bass extension that will be feed to an additional sub bass speaker called the sub bass extension. LFE.1 is played back on a different sub bass speaker and will be latter handled via the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496)

Amplification will later be upgraded from my vintage Marantz 1050 and 1030 as well as the Pioneer VSP-200 that runs the centre back and height surround arrays it will be replaced with a new decoder for surrounds one that has lots of RCA outputs for LCR and monaural surround, sounds confusing doesnít it?

Leads Iíll custom make my own with RCA and XLR to mate the system all together.

So there it is.:banana:

JBL 4645
05-03-2007, 01:55 PM
Second issue is the leads for the present time Iíll have to make my own custom leads with XLR for the loudspeaker management systems three inputs ABC with six additional leads for outputs 123456.

This is going to costly a fair bit and once I have obtained new amplifiers with XLR inputs Iíll then modify the output leads with the appropriate connectors.

So at the moment Iím sizing up the price differences looking at Maplin electronics UK, a single line and plug lead is £2.69 but thatís not all I must select the cable as well and that is where costs start to overrun if not thought out carefully.

Note: Iíll be making my own leads to cut costs.

Well hereís a few places Iíd be looking into for cable support one is cost of affordability as cable costs can soon run into an over costly affair.

http://www.thelocalweb.net/index/CCN/tlw_781825.htm (http://www.thelocalweb.net/index/CCN/tlw_781825.htm)

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=XLR&source=15&SD=Y (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=XLR&source=15&SD=Y)

http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/searchAction.do?dispatch=fullSearch&subCategory=XLR_Cables (http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/searchAction.do?dispatch=fullSearch&subCategory=XLR_Cables)

JBL 4645
05-16-2007, 03:22 AM
Well just phoned Turnkey and they say its still hasnít arrived yet! But they said theyíll call back later with an update as this is a (special order) and they donít keep them in the (warehouse) errÖ:banghead: 14 days its been now!:banghead:

JBL 4645
05-16-2007, 05:06 AM
Update Turnkey has confirmed that the (DCX2496) will arrive in the UK between the (16th and 19th May 2007) somehow the dates got muddled up and pushed back?:)

I just been talking about cabling and the XLR and RCA connectors that I would need for the unit XLR connectors cost £2.99 each, blimey that is costly to get the sound working between the AVR processing unit and the (DCX2496). Well Iíll check out the local stores to see if I can beat the price under £2.99 for each XLR.

hjames
05-16-2007, 05:19 AM
Update Turnkey has confirmed that the (DCX2496) will arrive in the UK between the (16th and 19th May 2007) somehow the dates got muddled up and pushed back?:)

I just been talking about cabling and the XLR and RCA connectors that I would need for the unit XLR connectors cost £2.99 each, blimey that is costly to get the sound working between the AVR processing unit and the (DCX2496). Well Iíll check out the local stores to see if I can beat the price under £2.99 for each XLR.


You could get a pair of XLR to RCA connectors (or two pair if thats what you need for ins and outs). Just use your existing high quality cables for interconnects. If your cables ever go bad just replace the cables and not the pricey XLRs

I got them pretty reasonably on a couple of occasions from an ebay vendor in Hong Kong abakuscom (abakus@mail.com)They have XLR male to RCA female as well as XLR female to RCA female -
I needed them for my active crossovers and they work great!
Payed via paypal and they were shipped in about a week.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230116448684Item Name: XLR male to RCA Female Plug adapter (new ,interface)
Quantity: 2
Sale price: $3.90
Subtotal: US $7.80
Shipping&handling:
Standard Flat Rate Shipping Service: US $1.90 for first item, US $0.95
for each additional item.
Standard Int'l Flat Rate Shipping: US $1.90 for first item, US $0.95


Also item - XLR Female to RCA Female Plug adapter
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230116448720


Quantity: 4
Sale price: $3.90
Subtotal: US $15.60
Shipping&handling:
Standard Flat Rate Shipping Service: US $1.90 for first item, US $0.95
for each additional item.
Standard Int'l Flat Rate Shipping: US $1.90 for first item, US $0.95
for each additional item.
Insurance (per item): (not offered)
Sales Tax: (none)

JBL 4645
05-16-2007, 11:17 AM
Thereís no need now!


http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture020.jpg
Well I had to pop over to Winton high street today to visit the building society and then decided to pop over to Columbia road to (D.J. Electronics) to find out how much XLR male and female plugs cost?

Wow whoopee http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif what a saving Iíve made today a saving of (£1.79p) over Turnkey XLR (£2.99p) for the XLR which D.J. where doing XLR for (£1.20p) each and without hesitation I brought for starters (three males and three females) six (RCA phone plugs) each (0.30p) a new soldering iron (£5.00) and three meters of cable that is screened at (40p) per meter.

Grand total (£16.20p) http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif

Wow Iím more than chuffed nowhttp://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif I can get on with some soldering and just wait patently now for the (DCX2496) to arrive.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture023.jpg

Coming soon later tonight more pictures, tricky leads and a burnt hole?:banghead:

allen mueller
05-16-2007, 05:45 PM
you need to get your self a "third hand" soldering tool. I just did a bunch of cables this weekend and it makes things so much easier. Follow the link to see what i'm talking about. Most electronics places have them.

http://www.rjsintl.com/productDetails.asp?product_id=T166

boputnam
05-16-2007, 07:17 PM
Great idea, Allen - only I find those too light-weight.

I would give a free listen to my 4345's to a referral of a heavy, meaningful soldering vise. That is, other than "use my wifey" who already subs for the trickiest jobs...

Mike Caldwell
05-16-2007, 08:38 PM
Hello
Here is a picture of my home made third hand solder vise. Small tin can, some cement mortar you could use plaster, alligator clip soldered to a bent piece of coat hanger with a loop bent in the other end that is seated in the mortar. The clip is in basically a fixed position, too much bending would eventually break the piece of coat hanger. Sturdy, solid and cheap!
I have had this for years, my record for one day of soldering was 106 xlr connectors prewiring racks for a big install.

Mike Caldwell

boputnam
05-16-2007, 09:13 PM
Dood...!!

I'm guessing that cement form is about 1m in diameter? Perfect...
:rotfl:

Ken Pachkowsky
05-16-2007, 09:22 PM
Can I order one of those?
:)

Ken

JBL 4645
05-17-2007, 08:28 AM
Note: too hold the plugs and cable in place I used (BLU TACK) it worked a treat in holding things together while keeping my hands free to do the soldering.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture033.jpg

Leads from AVR Dolby processing to (DCX2496)

RCA phone plug (red wire) to XLR male plug (pin 2 hot positive)
RCA phone plug (black wire) to XLR male plug (pin 3 cold negative)

Blimey talk about a fiddly task if they only had the right cable http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/yikes.gif F&*)k the soldering has just slipped onto the carpet with a f*76king hole ERRR!http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture034.jpg

Iím not pleased with the connection, Iíll have to buy some (installation tape) too cover the end up has tightly as possible to prevent movement on the RCA end damn that smell is turning my tummy. Looks like Iím going to have to buy a new carpet a cheap one, I mean I donít like the colour of it anyway.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture030.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture038.jpg



That was yesterday and so far I havenít finished the output XLR leads it was almost a disaster last night, maybe Iím getting old or it could have been the light in the room it wasnít bright enough to see what I was doing, I mean I had to use a magnifying glass to make sure Iím soldering the correct pins from the XLR to the RCA phone.

And that hole in the carpet doesnít look good either.:banghead:

allen mueller
05-17-2007, 09:40 AM
Great idea, Allen - only I find those too light-weight.

I agree they are light weight. I have been wanting to epoxy it to a piece of wood to form a better base but havn't gotten around to it.


Allen

boputnam
05-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I've been using one of these - damned handy but a little large. Something on a stiff gooseneck would be more workable...

Mike Caldwell
05-18-2007, 07:14 AM
Hello
Ken and for that matter anyone else. If your interested in one of my third hand helper holders I guess I could make up a few, let me know. I could spray paint in any custom color if that would same color of any leftover spray paint that I have!

Should I put a disclaimer on them to the effect of:
"This product is only intended for use in soldering electronic equipment such as but not limited to, holding wires while tinning, holding connectors while tinning and soldering wires to them, any soldering task that requires a stable base to hold work in place while the solder repair is being done. Using this product for any use other than electronic repair and or soldering is a matter of personal choice."

Mike Caldwell

JBL 4645
05-18-2007, 11:58 AM
I've been using one of these - damned handy but a little large. Something on a stiff gooseneck would be more workable...

Now thatís a good handy tool but I remember Tandy did one here in the UK during the 1980ís that was so affordable it had crocodile clippers on the ends to hold the item plus it could be positioned to make it easy for soldering. I wonder if Maplin is doing this item I think it was called ďhands free?Ē

JBL 4645
05-22-2007, 04:15 PM
"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed."http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif

Its arrived at 11:30am I asked if I could shake the deliver guys hand I embraced his hand for the delivery of the (DCX2496). Now I can start unpacking and putting it together.

Letís see what sheís got.http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/music.gif

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture.jpg

So far its taken me over 11 hours:banghead: to get some output assigned to one of the front channels the JBL Control 5 is set up in full range mode for the time being until I start gradually moving over to newer amplification and set the LCR in active mode with the correct amount of low mid for the (LF bass mid driver) and high range to the tweeter HF with a crossover point set at the 2Khz region, dear god give me strength!

So Iíve got to figure out how to get Left and Right performing.

Left channel is outputting from the AVR with RCA phone and XLR going to the input on the (DCX 2496) output is XLR output going to the Marantz 1050.
Still now sound output!

Centre channel is outputting from the AVR with RCA phone and XLR going to the input on the (DCX 2496) output is XLR output going to the Marantz 1050.
Playing now!

Right channel is outputting from the AVR with RCA phone and XLR going to the input on the (DCX 2496) output is XLR output going to the Marantz 1050.
Still no sound output!

I can monitor though the unit via assigning the (menu) and going though the (parameters) and via switching the though A and C I can hear Left A and Right C, except I havenít achieved proper output from the unit to the second Marantz 1050 that will drive the (stereo) left and right.

JBL 4645
05-22-2007, 05:03 PM
Well Iíve managed to get a music out of the Right channel now except when playing (Madonna) track 8 ďLive To TellĒ the left sound like it was playing though a filter and after switching CD disc over to the (dts CD demo disc) and playing track 14 in repeat mode I noticed the pink noise was indeed filtered off.

Anyway Iíve corrected the frequency output and noticed in the full band mode I can cut the lows at any point, very nice indeed and this is what I was looking for.

Still not out of the woods yet Iíve still got a long way to go, Iím just worried with what other surprises are in store.

Talk about get blood from a stone!:banghead:http://audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/boring.gif

boputnam
05-22-2007, 05:12 PM
...Its arrived at 11:30am I asked if I could shake the deliver guys hand I embraced his hand for the delivery of the (DCX2496). Odd. Most feel that warmth when the delivery guy takes the Behringer away... :rotfl:

Anyway, back to your reality...

You should be able to assign any input to any output. Start simple get it working, then expand your deployment.

I'd start two-channel, Source as A (= L) and B (= R).
Go to the Output (1-6) menus and select "Source" (A, B, or C). Most users of these order the Outputs as follows:
1 - L LF
2 - L MF
3 - L HF
4 - R LF
5 - R MF
6 - R HF

I don't order them this way, but that seems to be a sorta convention.

Oldmics
05-22-2007, 05:32 PM
"Odd. Most feel that warmth when the delivery guy takes the Behringer away... :rotfl:"

Perfectly said :applaud:

Anyway, back to your reality... :beamup:

At least I got an idea for another thread from this comic strip

Oldmics

JBL 4645
05-22-2007, 07:30 PM
Odd. Most feel that warmth when the delivery guy takes the Behringer away... :rotfl:

Anyway, back to your reality...

You should be able to assign any input to any output. Start simple get it working, then expand your deployment.

I'd start two-channel, Source as A (= L) and B (= R).
Go to the Output (1-6) menus and select "Source" (A, B, or C). Most users of these order the Outputs as follows:
1 - L LF
2 - L MF
3 - L HF
4 - R LF
5 - R MF
6 - R HF

I don't order them this way, but that seems to be a sorta convention.

boputnam

Well Iíve managed after nearly 13 hours to get the sound outputting from the unit. It had something to do with the (mute) and puzzling as it may seem Iíve kinder had sound from the centre channel earlier in the day only it was kinder noisy! I think it was also to do with the leads as Iíve checked and checked them over via mating the male and female leads together to see if there was break in the connection and all was well from AVR to Marantz 1050 amplifiers.

Yes its been a gruelling 13 hours and only now, my kneecaps are aching due to the psoriasis condition that I have suffered with for over 20 years.

Anyway Iím doing, a bit of experimentation with the input and output EQ and audio limiters.

Iím do a HEAT Dolby test with some passages from the film to see what I can do with the crazy over the top mix as itís a very complex Dolby film mix.

Thanks for helping out I was kinder thinking I could assign any input channel to the outputs so far Iím using (channel 1 for Left channel 2 for Centre and channel 3 for Right). When I get around to buying the new A-500 amplifies, starting sometime next week where Iíll buy one at a time as Iím not made of money all the JBL control 5, LCR fronts are all going active with the crossover.

boputnam
05-22-2007, 08:22 PM
Thanks for helping out I was kinder thinking I could assign any input channel to the outputs so far Iím using (channel 1 for Left channel 2 for Centre and channel 3 for Right). When I get around to buying the new A-500 amplifies, starting sometime next week where Iíll buy one at a time as Iím not made of money all the JBL control 5, LCR fronts are all going active with the crossover.Uh, OK. That is certainly a way to deploy this unit.

JBL 4645
05-22-2007, 08:54 PM
boputnam

Well itís got lots of potential in the, users manual the final goal is to as you said and as Iíve been planning it out now for the last few months is to use

Channel input A Left / with channel outputs for Right channel on outputs (1 LF and 2 HF)

Channel input B centre / with channel outputs for Centre channel on outputs 3 LF and 4 HF)

Channel input C Right / with channel outputs for Left channel on outputs 5 LF and 6 HF)

A second unit would be used for additional sub bass extension for the fronts that will be assigned to the ether the JBL 4645 or the other sub bass unit, I havenít decided on that issue yet.

A third unit for the left sidewall surrounds centre back surrounds right sidewall surrounds.

A fourth unit for height surrounds and LFE.1.

Anyway Iím getting some sleep now rest Iím totally done in!

Plus I might change all the EQís for 1/3 octave band types for one for L & R and one for C & centre back surround one for left& right sidewall surrounds, one for height surrounds and LFE.1.

Well getting some kip now.:)

JBL 4645
05-24-2007, 08:59 AM
Well Iíve now managed to get a little more hands on practical use of the unit, and thou the matching LCR fronts are only assigned for full spectrum sound until I start buying the new amplification. Iíd like to start of with one next week for the centre channel use and then get one for the left or right channel makes no differences, except I wonít connect them until I have all three amplifiers.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture092.jpg

Assigning the wide and narrow frequency bands for smooth high range was apparent on Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan with a more accurate approach during the attack sequence on the Enterprise.

When Kirk says visual thereís a hissing sound of the turbo door opening to the left and about 1 second later pans to the centre channel. In the past it was a kinder muddy masked sound that was so diffused as well as difficult to hear on the left channel, but now thanks to the (DCX 2496) array of features and technology software its more easier on the ear.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture095.jpg

Sorry the digital camera canít focus when up and close to objects.

So what changes did I make, first after exploring the unit with a more hands on experience I noticed I can ether narrow the band or wider the frequency band, so with 7.2Khz set to (((wide))) as to the value well its different for all users rooms and depending on whether the user as matching LCR it would be pointless discussing in greater detail.

So is the (DCX 2496) worth the (£174.99), absolutely and I canít wait to buy a few more as it really can shape the sound into a more cinematic approach within the room excellent value for money.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture094.jpg

JBL 4645
05-24-2007, 09:11 AM
The monitor AB and C modes are fairly good so if I where to assign centre channel and select the monitor on channel 2 for the time being and call up the input for B I can select A or C for compression tests on the centre.

For example I used (reference film material only) Star Trek the motion picture original 1979 Dolby stereo mix that was transferred from laserdisc to DVD-RW for my own personal use!

The films got some very impressive dialogue panning and sound effects usage that I place on the DVD and then use the (DCX 2496) to match levels. But thereís also the dts demonstration disc, with track 14 all channels wideband pink noise is very useful in adjusting timbre matching over the matching LCR JBL control 5.

JBL 4645
05-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Another feature is the delay short or long and it worked out very well with DIE HARD last night with the sound of the buildings explosion and ďJohn McClaneĒ hanging from the outside widow beating it down with his feet, then pushes himself away from the window and taking aim with his (Beretta 92) shots out the window the close ups from the interior shot with each piece of glass on the left and right breaking away with precision and then the shattering plunge throw the window, WOW!

Yes the (DCX 2496) really can make films shine better without the substandard approach where its very common in most homes film soundtracks tend to be too bright and less accurate sounding.

As to the settings of the long and short itís different for all home cinema set-ups. But its an invaluable feature on the unit that works very well.

JBL 4645
05-24-2007, 09:44 AM
Did I mention the memory (flash cards) for storing information, well thatís something Iíll have to buy next. The more EQ X-over as well as the other features I use on the (DCX 2496) the free memory becomes less and less on the unit. Not sure if the updates from Behringer, for the (DCX 2496) will greatly extend the units features?

JBL 4645
05-24-2007, 12:11 PM
Must say one of my favourite films at the moment is Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan

With each cut back to each starship, the tension slowly builds up in layers, which probably why Star Trek II is the best Star Trek adventure action film still to this time

ďThey still havenít raised there shieldsĒ
The mood of the music on left and rights have a more musical sound to it now with low string movement.
ďRaise are oursĒ

ďThere shields are going upĒ

ďLock phasers on targetĒ
The string movement starts to pitch a little higher
ďLocking phasers on targetĒ

Theyíre locking phasersĒ:eek:
ďRaise shieldsĒ
Until it peaks climate and Khan yells out in mad rage!
ďFIRE!Ē:D

The phaser fire from U.S.S. Reliant crosses from screen left to centre extremely fast with a mild lower level on screen right. Fantastic, Khannnn, KhannnnÖ:cool:

The (DCX 2496) is a whole lot of fun once set-up and thou it depends greatly on the matching LCR itís a blast.

Anyway since last night Iíve changed the input EQ, and only this afternoon went though the whole thing again step by step (LCR) with small trims at -1db.
2.03khz -1db Q 0.1
3.04khz -1db Q 0.1
4.02khz -1db Q 0.1
5.08khz Ė1db Q 0.1
6.03khz -1db Q 0.1
7.01khz -1db Q 0.5
8.14khz -1db Q 0.4
9.06khz -1db Q 0.04
10.1khz 1db Q 0.3

Dynamic EQ inputs left and right
2.30khz -2db Q 0.1

Centre
2.30khz +2db Q 0.5

Left and right
Threshold -10db
Ratio 1.1:1
Attack 10m/s
Release 20m/s

Centre
Threshold -10db
Ratio 2.5:1
Attack 10m/s
Release 20m/s

Anyway Iíll explore the inputs now and free date space % is very limited now.

boputnam
05-24-2007, 05:57 PM
Left and right
Threshold -10db
Ratio 1.1:1
Attack 10m/s
Release 20m/s
Riveting info on the EQ...

Anyway, your C/L settings might benefit from a slightly faster attack and slower release. I'd try attack at ~5ms and release at 500ms or even higher. I think you meant "Release 200ms" in your post...? Regardless, shorter release times, especially with this sort of material, can result in an audible "pumping", which you don't want. All units are a bit different, so "it depends".

Also, that ratio is almost "why bother...?", but if you dig it, cool.

And, use "soft knee" if it's an option...

JBL 4645
05-25-2007, 01:10 PM
boputnam

Thanks mate for the formula Iíll input the data into the (DCX 2496).

JBL 4645
05-28-2007, 02:51 AM
Setting the delay or resetting the configuration and after playing ďApollo 13Ē (dts THX laserdisc) from chapter 15 where buttons are pressed and switches moved over on screen left it was so easy to hear the difference this (DCX 2496) can make some part of the sounds where mixed in the centre channel. The sounds that where kinder in-between would be suited for left-centre and right-centre

Still it was rewarding to hear it sounded like the cinema to me.

Centre channel

Short delay
800 mm
2.33m/s

Long delay
2.65m
7.71 m/s

The left and right are still in the process of being addressed later in the day. I have only a few hundreds or so less films to try out and once Iíve got figured out thatís the way itís going to be here.

organeu
05-28-2007, 03:05 AM
Hello folks!

Sitting here and planning to change some of my audio gear to more flexible parts, if its a benefit, I dont know.

What I plan to do is to get rid of my Ashly 4-way stereo XR4001 analog x-over and then buy two new Behringer DCX2496 digital x-overs, but I dont know how they sound. Anybody here who have a longer of time experience to this digital x-over? To me it looks to be a little bit complicated to all this programmings one must do before one is able to use it. But the possibilities looks to be infinitive and if buying two of those it will cover my needs that the older XR4001 couldnt do, a 5-way stereo soundstage.
So, is there someone who can post some comments, positives and negatives no matter what, then I should be grateful. :)

Thanks in Advance

Regards
:bs:behringer is COPY, and it grows old rather bad, I'm sound maker and I know what I tell. They are burglars of great technology from prestigious names, and built in ASIA.
The reason why their products are not expensive.
:biting:You know certainly than children work in ASIA, the reason why I don't understant how we can speak of this name on a respectable LANSING forum.
Best reGARD

organeu
05-28-2007, 03:08 AM
[quote=JBL 4645;170619]Did I mention the memory (flash cards) for storing information, well thatís something Iíll have to buy next. The more EQ X-over as well as the other features I use on the (DCX 2496) the free memory becomes less and less on the unit. Not sure if the updates from Behringer, for the (DCX 2496) will greatly extend the units features?[/quote

HELLO,
I VE SEEN THE PHOTO POSTER with JBL logo vitch is rather nice.
Where do you find this publicity with JBL DOLBY and THX ?
:bouncy:could you send me this nice poster to ericmorata@wanadoo.fr (ericmorata@wanadoo.fr)
THANKS A LOT
BEST REGARD

JBL 4645
05-28-2007, 03:10 AM
:bs:behringer is COPY, and it grows old rather bad, I'm sound maker and I know what I tell. They are burglars of great technology from prestigious names, and built in ASIA.
The reason why their products are not expensive.
:biting:You know certainly than children work in ASIA, the reason why I don't understant how we can speak of this name on a respectable LANSING forum.
Best reGARD

WTF, ok so they take some liberty I donít care besides Iíve saved a fortune with the (DCX 2496) a fortune so I donít really give a four xxxx for anything else.:p

Howís this going to sound hay, the next time I phone Behringer, and ask for some technical help and then say, excuse me sir but are you a
Howís this going to sound hay, the next time I phone Behringer, and ask for some technical help and then say, excuse me sir but are you a burglar?http://cache.consumerist.com/assets/resources/2006/06/burglar-thumb.jpg LOL, theyíll slam the phone down on me.
?:D LOL, theyíll slam the phone down on me.:D

JBL 4645
05-28-2007, 03:16 AM
organeu

Oh mate it's too early in the day for this and besides the Americans, are sleeping in bed at this time hehehehe:D. So howís the weather in France, raining?:D

JBL 4645
05-28-2007, 03:25 AM
[quote=JBL 4645;170619]Did I mention the memory (flash cards) for storing information, well thatís something Iíll have to buy next. The more EQ X-over as well as the other features I use on the (DCX 2496) the free memory becomes less and less on the unit. Not sure if the updates from Behringer, for the (DCX 2496) will greatly extend the units features?[/quote

HELLO,
I VE SEEN THE PHOTO POSTER with JBL logo vitch is rather nice.
Where do you find this publicity with JBL DOLBY and THX ?
:bouncy:could you send me this nice poster to ericmorata@wanadoo.fr (ericmorata@wanadoo.fr)
THANKS A LOT
BEST REGARD

organeu

I see you edited the text. Where did I see this advertisement, Iím assume you mean the concept of putting this together yes? I saw a new sound system design for the (Empire Leicester square) cinema which is located in London.

I saw the (dbx 4800) that they where using and after a few months looking around for other things related to cinema sound systems I stumbled onto the Behringer (DCX 2496) I then did a little more research and discovered the music shop called Turnkey based in London, was doing the unit for a staggering £168.98p WOW could I refuse a crazy price like that.

I knew this would solve a lot of simple but hard sounding issues and so far its been superb.:applaud:

JBL 4645
05-28-2007, 04:24 AM
WTF :blink:ok now tell me do these look familiar Control 1 ring any bells?

http://www.behringer.com/MONITOR1C/monitor1C_medium.jpg

JBL 4645
05-30-2007, 03:33 PM
dear friends,

I have been spending quite some time trying to set the crossover points of my dcx 2496 but I'm unable to, can you please help??

I have a couple of bi-amped spakers and a couple of single amped speakers to be run with the DCX.
I need to set the crossover points for the first four outputs and no crossover for output 5 and 6 that shoul drive the monoamped speakers. How to do it??

If I set the system LH LH LH
12 34 56

In the output pages I set x-over points to free but it looks all the outputs are still linked and if I change x-over in output 12 34 it also changes the 45 outputs??

What Am I doing wrong??

Thank you


I was going to say the same thing in different topic yes! I have also experienced that and thereís got to be a reason for this?

I would like independent control over each crossover setting in LH 12 LH 34 LH 56 if this is something to do with the software programming of the pre-set modes then I guess where going to find this a somewhat rather difficult choice at setting the control outputs.

Partly the blame is the ownerís manual itís not clear laid out and it tends to skip a few unanswered questions?

JBL 4645
05-30-2007, 04:06 PM
Just sent ďBehringerĒ a question regarding the issue about the (crossover settings) hopefully I should get a response within the next 48 hours.

"Hello there.

Well I have discovered that when set in crossover mode for Left centre and Right outputs of the (DCX2496) is that, when I adjust the time delay setting on the input B its translating the same information over to A and C.

Also when I adjust the crossover differently with the intent of independence on channels (3L and 4H) its gets translated over to channels (1L 2H 5L 6H).

Now is there way so I can access the unit for more impendent control as I need to have the control over the (DCX2696).

Or is there a program that you can make for me that well allow me to have the flexibility and control as this one of the reason why I brought the DCX2496 in the first palace on the belief I would have more control over the Left centre right issues."

JBL 4645
05-30-2007, 10:20 PM
What type of frequency bands does the (Behringer DCX 2496) have I, mean what octave as thereís no mention to this in the manual that I can find.

JBL 4645
06-01-2007, 07:12 PM
Via setting one the screen channels with a delay suited to the roomís distance to the listening position at just 4.20m 12.23m/s off screen and left centre right centre half parts of the sound translate with a clearer sound heard on the right when a Nancy, screams in Star Trek original TV show ďThe Man Tarp.Ē

Its followed by the scream paned slightly to the left while knowing its half placed in the centre it really works well in widening the width of the three-screen. The sound of Nancyís scream then anchors to the centre channel with a high pitch 1Khz scream.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture119-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture120-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Picture121-1.jpg

The image is taken with the digital camera, sorry about the odd colour itís the light balance of the camera.

The scream is faint on the left and right in pitch, but it is clearly heard. I wouldnít have got anywhere near to this without the (DCX2496) features its kinder opened up the sound and enhanced other parts of the soundtrack.

Other scenes inside the caverns with an open reverb echo that gives it size. Other features like Dynamic EQ and threshold settings each one set at 1Khz and gain boosted +15db Q 1.0. Threshold is set to -60db on left and right. Centre is to 1Khz gain +9db Q 1.0 threshold -22db.

As this is only an experiment, to see whether the settings that I have programmed on (DCX2496), so far its worked very well with Star Trek ďThe Man Tarp.Ē

JBL 4645
06-06-2007, 05:02 AM
Hereís a strange one, although someone here might know of a simply solution?

Every time I turn ON and OFF any other electrical item in the flat say a light switch, I get this nasty crackling sparkly sound that is received via, what I believe to be the DCX2496. This has happened since I first installed the unit 4 weeks ago now.

So does anyone have any suggestions anyone, on how to tackle this problem?

Times New Roman','serif']Sorry about the look of the text its this silly Microsoft 2007 temporary version Iím using. Hopefully later tonight a friend might be able to install a more user-friendly older version that I like. Microsoft Office 2007 sucks!:banghead:

JBL 4645
06-16-2007, 04:49 PM
Stop The Press!

Looks like Iíve been had by Turnkey with there so called low prices, I see that the DCX2496 is going for details below and no Iím not a happy bunny at all Iíve shelled out a mere £27.00 pounds more!:banghead:

It pays to shop around! :D

BEHRINGER ULTRADRIVE PRO DCX2496
Product Code: 370330Our price: £147.50 ex VAT£173.31 inc VATStock: Call for more details
http://www.studiospares.com/pd_370330_BEHRINGER%20ULTRADRIVE%20PRO%20DCX2496.h tm

Ian Mackenzie
06-16-2007, 11:48 PM
Are you sure the DCX2496 is THX compliant?

JBL 4645
06-17-2007, 09:22 AM
Are you sure the DCX2496 is THX compliant?

Morning, Na mate, that would be the dbx 4800 that is THX approved. Although I see no reason to add the DCX2496 to the home THX realm of home cinema, there seems to be a great support for it on the forums sites.:applaud:

JBL 4645
06-17-2007, 01:25 PM
http://img.tesco.com/pi/entertainment/DVD/LB/306552_DV_L_B.jpghttp://img.tesco.com/pi/entertainment/DVD/LF/306552_DV_L_F.jpg

Early this afternoon I’ve set some small changes to three of the two dynamic EQ that are on the DCX2496 one is for inputs, the other is for outputs. So what I changed was the frequency at 80hz with…

Left and right channels 80Hz +7db Q 0.3 threshold -50db
Centre channel 80Hz +8db Q 0.1 threshold -30db
Each one above is set with, attack at 10m/s release at 501m/s

The centre channel has been delayed for weeks now at 2.55m 7.42m/s and performs very well with this afternoons feature The Mummy (1999). Sound that is usually placed off to the left or right have left centre right centre halves, and with the delay made it so easy to hear those placed off to the left and right.

When Rick throws a bag onto a table with rather jumpy Evelyn, and along with exactly clear dialogue ADR, Rick, opens up his assorted weaponry poach from centre too left channel it clearly unwraps and while following its detail made it so involving. While checking his revolvers and sticking them into his side holster placed around him, again its clearly heard. With the delay turned off it becomes slightly difficult to hear, it tends to overlap a kind of shift to the left>.

The rest of the film is still very surprising with terrific split-surrounds that where played with centre back and height. Also I decided to change the outer side JBL Control 1 that are placed to left and right on the rear wall and re-plug them with a Y lead and send the output from the EQ that controls the centre back surround and plug the loudspeaker leads up to the Marartz 1050. The last remaining channel on the Alesis RA300 is powering the middle centre back surrounds.

As soon as I get around to installing the surround amplifiers after I’ve finished with the fronts I might decide on a new plan, hence subject to change at anytime, well I’m only human.

Sub bass extension and LFE.1 via the JBL 4645 was thundering due the last part of the film, this would be where wall doors start closing down the rumbling was tickling my ear as well as pressing on me, kinder felt like the EMPIRE Leicester square. Not once did I see the Alesis RA300 go into clip but the amount of bass mid with the 80Hz boost on the dynamic EQ did a good task on the end credits with good percussion.

Yes I like the DCX2496 it surly makes a sound improvement, its well worth the wait.

hjames
06-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Why add in all that extra gear, friend - its just adding more stages of potential noise to the system!
I don't have any of the Alessis or dbx stuff, yet our sounds are VERY nice. We heard all manner of great thumpy bits the other night on Ghost Rider, and even with an older movie like Peter Weir's The Mosquito Coast - its just a wondrous sound with the storm blowing all around and the beach house getting blown off its base. Even the sound of the jungle ice maker getting blown to smithereens is awesome. If I need more bass I just turn up the low frequency amp. Oh yeah, some guy named Harrison Ford was in that one - one of his better roles, I think ...(grin).

Maybe you'd do better with less money on the sound "correction and enhancement gear" - and instead put more money into the actual amps and speakers. That seems to be where the audiophile folks go - less gear but purer sounds.

Unless of course, its your preference to spend all your spare time dinking with knobs.

Ian Mackenzie
06-17-2007, 04:34 PM
Heather,

This is what building / adjusting home theatre is all about.

Ian Mackenzie
06-17-2007, 05:07 PM
http://img.tesco.com/pi/entertainment/DVD/LB/306552_DV_L_B.jpghttp://img.tesco.com/pi/entertainment/DVD/LF/306552_DV_L_F.jpg

Early this afternoon Iíve set some small changes to three of the two dynamic EQ that are on the DCX2496 one is for inputs, the other is for outputs. So what I changed was the frequency at 80hz withÖ

Left and right channels 80Hz +7db Q 0.3 threshold -50db
Centre channel 80Hz +8db Q 0.1 threshold -30db
Each one above is set with, attack at 10m/s release at 501m/s

The centre channel has been delayed for weeks now at 2.55m 7.42m/s and performs very well with this afternoons feature The Mummy (1999). Sound that is usually placed off to the left or right have left centre right centre halves, and with the delay made it so easy to hear those placed off to the left and right.

Yes I like the DCX2496 it surly makes a sound improvement, its well worth the wait.

4645,

Can you explain or post an image of the left/centre/right channel loudspeaker and perhaps post a block outlining what you are assigning to specific drivers in terms of bandwidth.

I realise what you are attempting goes well beyond a "typical HT" setup but I see two issues and it may pay to look at them seperately for clarity. Otherwise you may end up a cat cashing its tail with all the adjustments

1. Calibration of the L/C/R as a loudspeaker design with various crossover points, eq to correct for minor issues and where absolutely necessary some delay. From my own limited experience the sub, depending on the type and its location may requires its signal conditioned to arrive before the L/C/R as a result of group delay in the tuning and effects of a low crossover point. (see Drew Daniels system links in the Library for details)

2. Setup and Eq balancing overall for the desired THX surround sound format. This is normally a level matching and delay matching in distance with the listening postion. No doubt the size of your room and the number of surround loudspeakers will require some customised adjsutments.

Just for your own info I regularly attend the Astor and Palace George Cinema's here locally.

About 20 years ago I did a short stint managing the Hoyts Mid City centre in Melbourne and did the premier of Alien. That was about the time the whole multiplex thing happened. It was ugly, old cenema's were knocked down, projectionist lost jobs and a lot of nice old Altec systems and BIG valve amps got thrown out. The quality was crap and so was much of Hollywoods product.

But quality has turned around and the charm of going to the movies is on the way back. There's nothing quite like a big screen.

http://www.astor-theatre.com/

There is some interesting blurb of the Astor sound system.

http://www.palacecinemas.com.au/

JBL 4645
06-17-2007, 07:16 PM
Ian

Iíll have a look at the papers on ďDrew DanielsĒ thanks for the links below.

I see one of my favourite films is playing at the Astor cinema next month WOW! Now that film does sound fantastic which picked up best score film editing sound effects editing and best achievement in sound all rerecord and released in Dolby stereo A type.

The Right Stuff [M] (1983)
70mm blow-up (1.85:1) from 35mm - six-track magnetic sound
Monday - July 16 - 7:30 PM (single feature)

Thatís one film I havenít tested out since I installed the DCX2496 and the Alesis RA300 for the fronts, maybe Iíll give it another play for the 50th or 60th time, Iíve been watching this film since late of 1988 when I brought VHS Hi-Fi stereo copy of it, it sounded great in Dolby Pro-Logic, later I brought the laserdisc and it sounded a whole lot better.

But the DVD is the crŤme da le crŤme with six channels and when those Atlas rockets start up WOW the jolt that kicks out on the LFE.1 not to mention sub bass extension it rumbles deep. And the score sounds beautiful.

I would like to see the 70mm Dolby stereo version of, The Right Stuff, it was one of those rare films I didnít get to see in the cinema, although I think it was playing in 35mm Dolby stereo A type only, the cinema can play 70mm, but that depends whether theyíll get a 70mm Road Show print. Check it if you havenít already seen it.

No bucks no buck Rogers.:D

JBL 4645
06-17-2007, 08:26 PM
Ian

Fascinating read on the ďDrew DanielsĒ read I liked the last part Iíve had ring in the ears not too bad, but Iíve had (tinnitus) since I was young, adding to the fact I stay up for long hours without much sleep.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm

"DISCLAIMER: A SERIOUS WORD OF WARNING

The system described here is easily capable of producing sound pressure levels far in excess of that which will cause irreversible hearing loss--don't take this lightly. You might suffer not only permanent hearing loss, but also constant ringing in the ears that can cause insomnia and lead to nervous disorders or emotional problems. JBL and this writer make no claims and take no responsibility for the design, operation or consequences of using the system described here."

1988 Drew Daniels.

Ian Mackenzie
06-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Ah ha,

I get it If someone goes off the deep end around here we know WHY.:D

JBL 4645
06-18-2007, 09:09 AM
Ah ha,

I get it I someone goes off the deep end around here we know WHY.:D

Yeah, and I can swim as well.:D But it should be noted Iím not tying to outdo any of you lot, Iím trying to outdo myself by going beyond the common home cinema sound system look, with the practical pursuit of designing a unique sounding one for myself.

If I see someone else home cinema, and say, thatís a neat idea I might apply that technique, to mine. Then why not apply it if it works!

Allanvh5150
07-03-2007, 12:32 PM
Hi guys, I have a freind here that runs a retl operation and he sells the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496. I was considering buying one. He told me the units had a 70% failure rate so they had stopped selling them.I thought this was rather alarming. Has anyone here ever had any problems with reliability?

Allan.:blink:

Chas
07-03-2007, 12:54 PM
Hi guys, I have a freind here that runs a retl operation and he sells the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496. I was considering buying one. He told me the units had a 70% failure rate so they had stopped selling them.I thought this was rather alarming. Has anyone here ever had any problems with reliability?

Allan.:blink:

Yes and no, I have three Behringer products. One died after about two months, the other two are doing fine.

JBL 4645
07-08-2007, 05:41 PM
Hi guys, I have a freind here that runs a retl operation and he sells the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496. I was considering buying one. He told me the units had a 70% failure rate so they had stopped selling them.I thought this was rather alarming. Has anyone here ever had any problems with reliability?

Allan.:blink:

Blimey me this is news to me, so far I havenít experienced any difficulties with the DXC2496 not sure if they have produced mark I and II versions after the company was aware of production problems. But at the crazy low price the unit sales for itís a bargain, but still itís the principle of reliability for many years I mean many I have Marantz 1050 1030ís and a few Yamaha processors DSR-70 DSP-100 that have lasted well over 19 years!

JBL 4645
07-08-2007, 05:43 PM
Hereís something that might be of sound interest, we always read too much from members about favourite scenes in the movies so I thought Iíd add picture stills and text to describe that particular scene.

One of my favourite listening subjects is complex Dolby film mixers where the discrete soundtrack offers a few sequences that might go unheard to most of users, for example HEAT 1995.

Thereís a moment at the airport where Neil is running across a busy runway with a DC-10 panning from left to right screen channels only! While presented in the centre channel we hear nothing but the Foley work of footsteps panting and breathing that on most home cinema systems this would be severely masked by the aircrafts noisy jet engines!

This presents very little difficulty here with the help of the Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system and its use of features like dynamic EQ audio limiters crossover filters and basic general EQ and much more, for setting up a perfect or near perfect than what you heard before. The matching fronts in my screen array are JBL control 5 LCR fronts placed up front and have been in use since I brought them back in 1990.

Audio masking is one of those headaches most of hath to deal with and thou there are ways around to a small degree it takes a great deal of patience and careful listening.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-10.jpg

As the DC-10 pans from left to right with smooth loudness rather than a shrilly too much for taking sound that would normally be encountered in most home cinema rooms, it presented no trouble with the matching JBL control 5 LCR along with matching Alesis RA300 amplifiers and the brains of the taming all this the affordable Behringer DCX2496 for which none of this would have been possible.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-102.jpg

As Neil runs across the runaway breathing and panting along with footsteps that can be easily heard with the settings on the DCX2496 it makes the whole sequence fresh and exciting to listen to rather than struggling with turning the centre channel up which is what most would do but without some to tame the sound when it gets too loud, you simply back at the beginning again.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-103.jpg

As Neil gets nearer towards us the breathing gets a little louder but being soft and gentle at the same time as the DC-10 pans off to the right Neil runs towards safety in the airfields back felids. I have to say you can really get into it at this moment and the heals on the shoes really hit that concrete nicely.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeildieingcentrechannelbreathin.jpg

With Neilís luck finely running out Hanna puts Neil, down with several gunshot wounds, with musical background sounds on the left and right and with centre channel carrying breathing exhaling with exhaustion along with a few cricket sound effects.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilslowingfadingawaybreathingi.jpg

A bass note accompanies and enhances the centre channel deeply followed with musical high notes that slowly build up in layers while left and right would normally be drowning out the centre channel by the point and without anyone realizing just how good the centre channel can sound with proper care and adjustment.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATlowbassinthecentrechannelwithbr.jpg

Barely able to hold on Neil finally fades off with last gasp that cuts over the left and right but not too heavily I made sure to maintain the levels so that good stereo separation can still serve the films story.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATclassicDobystereodigitalfilm.jpg

As the music reaches a climatic high, with Neil and Hanna in the mist of breathtaking backdrop too what was brilliant cop thriller from the 1990ís and one of many best Dolby stereo digital soundtracks from that era.

(Mobyís) ďGod moving over the face of the watersĒ has a nice tranquil feeling a spiritual feeling that suites last moments of the film until (Eliot Goldenthal) score fades in on the closing credits.

Iím not sure if the settings that I made to the DCX2496 would be of any use to someone who owns this fine little unit or if this thread is wetting someoneís appetite to starting over fresh again with there home cinema with matching amplifiers matching fronts LCR and a Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system to make the magic come alive. Or maybe you have matching loudspeakers and amplifiers but havenít brought the amazing DCX2496 which as been out for several years now.

This is why 9 times out home cinema 10 users always moan why I canít hear the centre channel but it goes further than a lot further.

johnaec
07-08-2007, 07:22 PM
So what the hell movie is it?? I read your post 3 times and still have no idea!

John

hjames
07-08-2007, 07:26 PM
:applaud:
So what the hell movie is it?? I read your post 3 times and still have no idea!

John
Well, its really completely off topic re: the Beringer ...

But the movie he's talking about is Heat - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113277/

its a 1995 Deniro/Pacino movie - mostly notable only because they got Deniro and Pacino to play off against each other ...

JBL 4645
07-08-2007, 07:30 PM
But donít blame me if you havenít got a golden ear for sound some just like to think they have and only a few true listeners listen.

Robh3606
07-09-2007, 10:07 AM
This is why 9 times out home cinema 10 users always moan why I canít hear the centre channel but it goes further than a lot further.

OK but what special setting did you use to make the Center Channel more audible in this sequence?? Did you use a Dynamic limiter that compresses the original and raises the overall level?? I usually don't have any issues with film soundtracts and the center channel levels. If anything I find issues with some multichannel music where it seems they are almost affraid to use it and just have a little ambiance and L/R bled into it.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
07-09-2007, 01:08 PM
So what the hell movie is it?? I read your post 3 times and still have no idea!

John

Heat

Bang Bang.

Best bank hold up shoot out ever on film.

JBL 4645
07-09-2007, 03:47 PM
Heat

Bang Bang.

Best bank hold up shoot out ever on film.

Well if you what me to go over that classic scene I will but not now its too late in night for M-16 blazing away with GO! GO!:D Yeah that is unquestionable the best shoot outs and I saw it around three times in the local ABC cinema using the popular JBL 4675-A screen array thatís equipped with five-screen for 70mm.

The loudness was fantastic and the screen was EQ a week before the film played there and it sounded top dog.:p:p

JBL 4645
07-09-2007, 03:55 PM
Meanwhile I was looking over another classic from 1979 ALIEN with a few scenes from the film some you may be familiar with well almost Iíve just taken it further with the use of the DCX2496 and thou I have struggled along with this before with other techniques that barely worked but never still they worked. In the past I used basic audio limiters and lot of analyzing of the mix over and over and over again until I solved the problem. But with the DCX2496 itís so far easier in a simple package with fine technical specifications.

Anyway shall we get on with, the little picture show?:)


With chapter 13 no blood no Dallas we see an air-lock door opening with clear sound down the centre and bleeping sound emitting from the with Jerry Goldsmiths score on screen left and right as with camera steadily moving back the door seals tightly ready for the capture of unwilling guest to be flushed out into space!

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENsoundscerentestairlockoepning.jpg

As Dallas proceeds to enter the air duct shafts armed with a flamethrower to flush the beast into the air-lock and zap into outer space his dialogue his clear over the sound of the iris as it closes on screen the left and right with metallic scrapping sound as if it hasnít grassed in years.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENirisopeningonscreenleftandrigh.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENirisclosingscreenleftandrigtDa.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALEINclosingirisscreenleftandrightd.jpg

ďOkay Iím moving on.Ē left and right can still be clearly heard while still keeping your attention fixed to dialogue and storyline. One thing should be noted with this scene is that the music with sound effects are played on left and right with occasional music notes being sent to the centre channel.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENRipleylookingforherfriends.jpg

With chapter 16 and now a scared now but lonely Ripley as she nears a compartment being cautious as she peaks around the doorway carefully and calls out ďParkerĒ?

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENRipleycallsforParkerwithslight.jpg

With no answer she kneels down sniffing, and breathing with plank face while the mechanics of the engines can be heard on screen right and a decompression of oxygen leaking on screen channels left and right or (centre phantom) (more on how to deal with centre phantom monaural channel later).

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALIENRipleysudderswithclearsoundfro.jpg

Ripleyís face turns cold with shuddering shock on her face itís clearly heard the drama behind it plays well and reacting to her emotions tells us the ALEIN can be anywhere?

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALEINherfriendsdangerlingwitheffect.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/ALEINRipleybacksawaywithhorrorclear.jpg

Knowing sheís the last one she backs away quickly to get of the doomed Nostromo while Foley can be hard with good accuracy.

grumpy
07-10-2007, 10:16 AM
gawd. can someone please close this thread? :banghead:

JBL 4645
07-10-2007, 11:09 AM
gawd. can someone please close this thread? :banghead:

What’s a matter with you did you start this thread? I did create the post for a separate discussion and it was moved here by one of the moderates so please be cool you might lean a few things or two and remember I’m using JBL in home cinema with the wonderful DCX2496. So again I ask be cool or and polite.:)

JBL 4645
07-10-2007, 11:12 AM
OK but what special setting did you use to make the Center Channel more audible in this sequence?? Did you use a Dynamic limiter that compresses the original and raises the overall level?? I usually don't have any issues with film soundtracts and the center channel levels. If anything I find issues with some multichannel music where it seems they are almost affraid to use it and just have a little ambiance and L/R bled into it.

Rob:)

Input A left channel -8.5db delay setting if turned off.
EQ
1.60 KHz -0.5db Q 0.1
2.03 KHz -0.1db Q 0.1
3.18 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
4.02 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
5.08 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
6.03 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
8.14 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
15.0 KHz -6.0db Q 0.1

Dynamic EQ
1KHz -15.0db Q 0.1
Threshold -60db
Attack 10 m/s
Release 808 m/s

Input B centre channel 0.0db delay 2.85m / 8.30 m/s
EQ
1.60 KHz -0.5db Q 0.1
2.03 KHz -2.0db Q 0.1
3.18 KHz -1.3db Q 0.1
4.02 KHz -1.3db Q 0.1
5.08 KHz -2.0db Q 0.1
6.03 KHz -1.7db Q 0.1
8.14 KHz -3.0db Q 0.1

Input C right channel
-8.5db delay setting if turned off.
EQ
1.60 KHz -0.5db Q 0.1
2.03 KHz -0.1db Q 0.1
3.18 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
4.02 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
5.08 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
6.03 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
8.14 KHz -0.9db Q 0.1
15.0 KHz -6.0db Q 0.1

Dynamic EQ
1KHz -15.0db Q 0.1
Threshold -60db
Attack 10 m/s
Release 808 m/s

Output A left channel
EQ
30Hz -5.0db Q 1.0
161KHz -2.0db Q 0.1

Dynamic EQ
80Hz +4db Q 0.5
Threshold -20.0db
Ratio 1.1:1
Attack 10 m/s
Release 119 m/s

Limiter
-24.0db
Release 304 m/s

Phase 125į

Output B centre channel
EQ
30Hz -4.5 Q0.1

Dynamic EQ
+8.0 Q 0.1
-20.0
Ratio 1.4:1
10 m/s

Limiter
-24.0
Release 1508 m/s

Phase 115į

Output C right channel
EQ
30Hz -5.0db Q 1.0
161KHz -2.0db Q 0.1

Dynamic EQ
80Hz +4db Q 0.5
Threshold -20.0db
Ratio 1.1:1
Attack 10 m/s
Release 119 m/s

Limiter
-24.0db
Release 304 m/s

All outputs on the LCR fronts AVR Kenwood KRF-X9050D THX select are set to 0db except for the surrounds which are presently set to -10db,, more about that later. LFE.1 is set to 0db with audio limiter set to 0db more about that later.

loach71
07-10-2007, 11:50 AM
Have you comapred this unit to a Behringer analog active X-over?

What are your overall impressions of the sonic qualities of the DSP?

Thanks!

JBL 4645
07-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Have you comapred this unit to a Behringer analog active X-over?

What are your overall impressions of the sonic qualities of the DSP?

Thanks!

Iím sorry this is the first unit in the digital domain that I have brought, okay so I have an analogue active crossover placed just below it, but I hardly use that one now its very basic with only crossover points between LF 20Hz 500Hz cross off on the lows and HF 500Hz up to 20Khz.

As for compression Iíd say the digital one rules, itís got less noise than the (analogue active crossover) one when turned right up! But I wouldnít normally use it in that way.

grumpy
07-10-2007, 03:10 PM
Mr. 4645,

I genuinely appreciate your eventual response to RobH, who spoke up more tactfully
than I. No smiley attached. -grumpy

boputnam
07-10-2007, 03:20 PM
I did create the post for a separate discussion and it was moved here by one of the moderates so please be cool you might lean a few things or two ...Yea, that was me. :wave:

I thought it important to compile all your observations and uses of the DCX2496 together, here. It is becoming quite a compendium, and easy for interested parties to walk through.

JBL 4645
07-11-2007, 01:09 PM
Mr. 4645,

I genuinely appreciate your eventual response to RobH, who spoke up more tactfully
than I. No smiley attached. -grumpy

Well then allow me please to inset a happy face.:)


Yea, that was me. :wave:

I thought it important to compile all your observations and uses of the DCX2496 together, here. It is becoming quite a compendium, and easy for interested parties to walk through.

Bravo I salute sir.:) Thanks it dose make it worthy to see what can be done with DCX2496 within its technical tolerances.

JBL 4645
07-16-2007, 01:33 PM
Iím tempted to switch over to the active crossover mode tonight with a rather temporary hook up. Iíve stripped three RCA cable leads down with the one end chopped off and soldered to the pins for HF outputs this will be changed by tomorrow, Iíll pop up to D.J. Electronics to buy three XLR female outs and a three RCA phone plugs and some lengthy cable.

Now thou I havent got the third Alesis RA300 as of yet I can use three channels from the Marantz 1050 for the HF and use the other channel for centre back and Iíll hath to disconnect the height surround temporarily until I get a third Alesis RA300 to run the three-screen. So looks like a little re-plugging tonight.

Iíll be back in a jiffy with an update happy listening.:)

JBL 4645
07-17-2007, 03:28 PM
I like it now that all three screen channels are in (active cross over mode) itís a problematic issue to loose most of the EQ filter bands due to the X over function but after listening to some of my favourite films late of last night and this even with some extracts from, The Bourne Identity films with clearer wider frequency response on the ole JBL Control 5.

The harsh brittle sound in the mid bass has been greatly reduced with warmer sounding tones HF is free from that cross talk which resulted in shrillness that was too much too bare.

The cross over is set for Linkwitz-Riley 24db LF 50Hz to 1KHz Ė HF 24db 1KHz to 16.1 KHz 80Hz +7.0db Q 1.0 for the LF LCR channels.

Audio limiter
-16.6db LF LCR
-20.0db HF LCR

The dynamic EQ needs a little more experimentation at the time being but it does sound way better than before only wished I had larger JBL monitors matching LCR for the fronts but Iím pleased never the less very pleased.

I noted how clear STAR TREK the motion picture sounded when Sulu was pressed a button right channel just before Enterprise departed wow now thatís how I remember it in the Empire Leicester square back in 1989.:)

Going back to the Jason Bourne adventures with the wild car chase in ďThe Bourne SupremacyĒ toward the end was cracking tire screeching and metical hits glass and gunshots shined surprisingly over the three-screen.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/TheBourneSupremacy1.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/TheBourneSupremacy2.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/TheBourneSupremacy3.jpg

JBL 4645
07-18-2007, 07:00 AM
These pictures where taken a few nights back while I was modifying each of the three JBL Control 5 monitors.

Here I have installed two extra cables into screw socket holes that hold the passive crossover. With the passive crossover HF disconnected and with the new cables connected power the HF tweeter via an electronic frequency dividing network system.
The crossover is set for Linkwitz-Riley 24db LF 50Hz to 1KHz Ė HF 24db 1KHz to 16.1 KHz 80Hz +7.0db Q 1.0 for the LF LCR channels.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_040.jpg (http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data/500/Picture_040.jpg)

A closer view of my little JBL Control 5 and for the first time they sound a lot better this way without the harshness of brittle sound thou they have been quite beneficial for the past 16 years, but now its time for active crossover active is the way to go its cleaner and its got far more potential.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_041.jpg (http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data/500/Picture_041.jpg)

Catwomen was the first film to be tested with the Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system. I was astonished at how the hash sound disappeared into the JBL Control 5 thus leaving it with cleaner more dynamic lower and higher range, meow.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_043.jpg

JBL 4645
07-21-2007, 02:35 AM
The delay setting fools the ear very effectively and works very on the DCX2496 so far with films like HEAT chapter 16 ďDead Man TalkingĒ when ďRoger Van ZantĒ gets phone call the tone is heard from the centre channel as well as the left channel.

Here the tone can be heard from the left channel just as it was in the cinema from the conventional optical Dolby stereo soundtrack. The Dolby digital track presents a lot more and few hidden Easter eggs sound surprises that I doubt youíve even heard before on this rather complex Dolby film mix.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATcentrechanneRogerVanZant1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATcentrechanneRogerVanZant2.jpg

JBL 4645
08-07-2007, 08:09 PM
With a slight curiosity I decided to take an exclusive inside peek at the Berhinger DCX2496 loudspeaker management system to much of my surprise there was very little but it surly does a lot for which I couldnít have managed without.

Its all software today and cleaver it is cleaver that its light weight and affordable to mass produce, so there it is an inside look for some of the users here that own the DCX2496.:)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/DCX2496insidetheunit.jpg

JBL 4645
08-30-2007, 07:44 PM
I’ve taken a few extra steps tonight via placing (three) JBL Control 1 on top of each JBL Control 5 and readjusted the crossover settings. LF is now presently set to 50Hz to 260Hz Butterworth -18db.

The HF is set to 277Hz to 20KHz Butterworth -18db. Thou this only an experiment with the crossover filter, I still like to explore for overall smoothness from the Control 5 down to the sub bass extension so far it’s performed well with STAR TREK II. Bass over the three-screen was placed more in the box and help to tighten up the Enterprise slowly moving down right front as it draws closer to Reliant.

The sub bass extension does need a DCX2496 as soon as can get around to it. But for now it sounds okay.

Note the HF on the JBL Control 5 has been disconnected.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/JBLthree-wayControlset-up2.jpg

JBL 4645
09-17-2007, 12:57 PM
UreiCollector

How do you activate the (input gain) controlís that is described on page 17 of the DCX2496 userís manual? Iíve tried a few times without any success and since youíve got a DCX2496 maybe you could shed a little light on how to activate it, thank you.

UreiCollector
09-17-2007, 06:26 PM
press the 'sum' button on the front of the unit. it is the first page of options.

JBL 4645
09-18-2007, 01:10 AM
press the 'sum' button on the front of the unit. it is the first page of options.

Urei

Okay the thread is here and I’ve noted that one press the (sum) I’ll turn the sound system on in a few hours and exercise that part. Thanks mate.:)

timc
09-18-2007, 01:37 AM
Hello.

Just ordered a DCX. I will post my experience with it once I've tried it out.

Best regards Tim

JBL 4645
09-18-2007, 02:34 AM
Hello.

Just ordered a DCX. I will post my experience with it once I've tried it out.

Best regards Tim

Tim

Hello we where just speaking via MSN! Yeah post you’re personal description on the DCX2496 when you obtain one. They can be brought for low prices if you look around in you’re region of Norway, just use the word (Behringer DCX2496) in "Google" under (Product) and look for the best low prices available.:)

timc
09-21-2007, 10:51 AM
Got my DCX2496 today and hooked it up with analouge source.

Sounds ok considering the crappy source i use atm. EQ is doing what i want. So far so good.

Now i just have to save up som money to buy the modification kit. Gonna get them all. I//O board, PSU and clock.

Best regards Tim

UreiCollector
09-21-2007, 12:42 PM
Do you have a link to the supplier of the mods? I have not been lucky with a Google search.

I'm curious if anyone has performed these mods, and what the general feeling is on them.....

I personally only use the device below 120hz or less, so I doubt any real gain will be had for my application.

Thanks!

timc
09-21-2007, 12:48 PM
Do you have a link to the supplier of the mods? I have not been lucky with a Google search.

I'm curious if anyone has performed these mods, and what the general feeling is on them.....

I personally only use the device below 120hz or less, so I doubt any real gain will be had for my application.

Thanks!


Look at the 1st post on the 2nd page.

Best regards Tim

JBL 4645
09-21-2007, 02:21 PM
Got my DCX2496 today and hooked it up with analouge source.

Sounds ok considering the crappy source i use atm. EQ is doing what i want. So far so good.

Now i just have to save up som money to buy the modification kit. Gonna get them all. I//O board, PSU and clock.

Best regards Tim

Tim

High numbers on the perchance, :applaud: of the (DCX2496) look forward to seeing some pictures of the modification.

timc
09-22-2007, 11:53 AM
I have now adjusted my bass response to what i percieve as flat. Not measured. Sounds very good. Fast, dry response with lots of detail.

Conclusion so far: As long as you are just using it for bass adjustment, modification isn't a must. For fullrange use you HAVE to do it. Mids/Highs are not good.

-Tim

Mike Caldwell
09-22-2007, 05:50 PM
Hello
Just a thought to ponder. Is it worth the expense and time to modify a behringer unit or just go and get a better DSP in the first place?
Having said that I have no idea what your paying for the DCX2496 units or what the mod kits consist of and sell for. I have nothing against mods and tweaks to equipment, I've done it for years but sometimes you have to step back and think is it really worth it or is the piece I'm modifying worth it. But everything is a learning experience, I have been known to take perfectly good new equipment apart to see how well it's built. Case in point a new mixing board I got about 8 months ago! So I guess who am I to talk.

Mike Caldwell

mikebake
09-22-2007, 07:09 PM
WTF? Where is the ratio of time/money/effort on audio vs. video at in your scenario?? You're enjoying your movie sound while watching THAT? Or am I missing something?

These pictures where taken a few nights back while I was modifying each of the three JBL Control 5 monitors.

Here I have installed two extra cables into screw socket holes that hold the passive crossover. With the passive crossover HF disconnected and with the new cables connected power the HF tweeter via an electronic frequency dividing network system.
The crossover is set for Linkwitz-Riley 24db LF 50Hz to 1KHz Ė HF 24db 1KHz to 16.1 KHz 80Hz +7.0db Q 1.0 for the LF LCR channels.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_040.jpg

A closer view of my little JBL Control 5 and for the first time they sound a lot better this way without the harshness of brittle sound thou they have been quite beneficial for the past 16 years, but now its time for active crossover active is the way to go its cleaner and its got far more potential.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_041.jpg

Catwomen was the first film to be tested with the Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system. I was astonished at how the hash sound disappeared into the JBL Control 5 thus leaving it with cleaner more dynamic lower and higher range, meow.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_043.jpg

gerard
09-22-2007, 07:18 PM
May be some people would be interested by those mods

I did not try myself even If I got one dcx2496 .

http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_fr.asp

Gerard

Mike Caldwell
09-22-2007, 08:38 PM
Hello
Thanks for the link to the Behringer mods.
I looked them over and did a Babel Fish French to English translation. It looks like the mod parts alone would cost 266 Euro or $375 US dollars!!!! To buy an already modified unit would be 975 euro or $1374 US dollars!!!!!! There is no way modifying any Behringer unit is worth that kind of money not to mention the time.


Mike Caldwell

timc
09-23-2007, 12:40 AM
Hi.

I disagree with you there. With the prices in Norway this is actually cheap. The Shark DSP in the Behringer is also found in Accuphase wich costs about 70k NOK, and the AKM DAC's is used in APL players wich retails in the US for about $6.5k. The complete cost for the Behringer with mods is about 7k NOK.

If i where to buy the box i really wanted, the BSS Omnidrive Compact Pro, that would cost med almost 30k NOK

So the deal with the Behringer is that the DSP section is top notch, but the PSU, Clock and analouge circuit is crap.

-Tim


Hello
Thanks for the link to the Behringer mods.
I looked them over and did a Babel Fish French to English translation. It looks like the mod parts alone would cost 266 Euro or $375 US dollars!!!! To buy an already modified unit would be 975 euro or $1374 US dollars!!!!!! There is no way modifying any Behringer unit is worth that kind of money not to mention the time.


Mike Caldwell

gerard
09-23-2007, 06:15 AM
If anyone have some problems with babel french translation , I can help .:D

regards

Gerard

gerard
10-02-2007, 12:45 PM
A new interesting link unless it already exists

Again a french one !

http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/index_en.php


Gerard

JBL 4645
10-02-2007, 06:04 PM
Well Iíve just soldered a dry joint on other equalizer, and thou it is a rather nasty piece from ďTandyĒ it just needed a little housekeeping to it afloat, until I can afford several DEQ2496 units to take over.

Apart from what timc has been talking about, I welcome any modifications if it offers a marginal improvement. So if you can, provided clearer and better pictures step by step on what circuit board track to cut, if any? And where to apply the new components I would be very happy to buy a modification kit and do it myself.

Oh as long as the modification kit is affordable and under £100.00 pounds UK!:D

JBL 4645
10-02-2007, 06:08 PM
WTF? Where is the ratio of time/money/effort on audio vs. video at in your scenario?? You're enjoying your movie sound while watching THAT? Or am I missing something?

I like hearing complexities of detail moving from side to side centre to left and right and most of all I like Catwoman.:D Meow.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Picture_043.jpg

doodlebug
10-02-2007, 08:21 PM
A new interesting link unless it already exists
Again a french one !
http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/index_en.php
Gerard

Here's the English (http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_US.asp) version. I've been tempted to purchase one of these little gizmos myself just to see what all the fuss is about. I'll have to wait until the new house is built but then it should be fun to dink with it and the JBL 4670 theater system I picked up in June. My biggest concern is that I'd end up just tweeking all the parameters and not really enjoy the music.

As for the mods, I spent some time looking at them but, frankly, I'd really _want_ to have a problem to fix with them. At the moment, the Euro and $$ aren't really speaking to each other, which lowers my interest.

Cheers,

David

JBL 4645
10-02-2007, 09:04 PM
Well whereís the step by step visual guide and interpretation to this all I see is a load of circuit boards and so whereís the step by step guide to all this.

JBL 4645
10-16-2007, 05:24 AM
Correct.

Uh, you are looking at it wrong - it does. You do this two ways:

1. With the Inputs gains. You can adjust each individually - if you match them by say -6dB, it is as if you "turned down all the outputs" by -6dB. According to the text, "The setting range is from -15 to +15 dB." I have attached the Block Diagram, p4 of the Manual - see RED arrow.

I routinely do this on my KT DN9848 (a real nice DSP...) - moving between different mains with differing sensitivities requires maintaining the right gain structure to the amps. I have presets modelled for each "stack" of choice.

2. You can also do it with each Outputs gains, too - see GREEN arrow.

That said, -15 dB on the Inputs gains ain't enough - I bypass the unit all-together. :barf:

Thatís a slight thing Iíve noticed Iíve barely turned the levels to a point where I can see the action of the individual levels dancing around. So Iím going to have to make a few changes this afternoon, bloody amateur I am. Iíve got one of my favourite films running for the test "DIE HARD" (1988) so Iíll use extreme caution in setting the levels with a slight considerable reduction of the amplifier levels for LCR LF and HF outputs.

Hope I donít blow this stack to smithereens!

readswift
01-02-2008, 05:58 AM
Hi.

I disagree with you there. With the prices in Norway this is actually cheap. The Shark DSP in the Behringer is also found in Accuphase wich costs about 70k NOK, and the AKM DAC's is used in APL players wich retails in the US for about $6.5k. The complete cost for the Behringer with mods is about 7k NOK.

If i where to buy the box i really wanted, the BSS Omnidrive Compact Pro, that would cost med almost 30k NOK

So the deal with the Behringer is that the DSP section is top notch, but the PSU, Clock and analouge circuit is crap.

-Tim

please refer to the 4435 dig. EQ thread I tried to explain things. FYI the DSP section of the cheapo B is crapola as well (uses IIR filters only)

nothin top notch there , maybe if we are about to write 1998 thn OK . I also say It not worths the hassle. Rather wait for something new (HDMI hint, hint) , this market is expanding.

JBL 4645
01-03-2008, 01:33 PM
Must say I like the new layout that way it should be lot easier to find and post new threads around here now.

Happy New Year guys.:)

I must admit, I was tempted a week ago, you know back in what was once 2007, I changed the crossover point to 48db 510Hz, own on the LF for LCR, itís only an experiment, what I noticed was different tone in the bass mid.

I think I need new JBL for the LCR fronts at some point because of the demands that Iím asking for is too great and thereís only so much a 6 Ĺ bass mid can do.

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 05:29 PM
Picking up or receiving a cacophony of radio signals though the DCX2496 on the left channel only! :confused:

Now this is even being cursed by the slight temporary set-up along one side of the room, and thou I have to wait until I get everything racked up, there is a bundle of cables behind the audio equipment. But none more, none less then before.

I never had this issue at the last home, so Iím guessing the signals are being received though theÖ

Ö(electrics mains) or itís something to do with (audio cables) possibly the mains the way everything is connected?

Now Iíve undone one Alesis RA300 and the DCX2496 and taken one JBL control 1 to the other room and set it up, and tested it for radio interference.

Nothing coming though this time, Iím a little puzzled and was puzzled for an hour after turning the amplifier volume right up, with no DVD or CD audio playing.

Now Iíve had the volume up all the way around the other home, same situation, no audio playing, just listening, to the background noise.

Iím going to re-try this back in the room in moment, and try a single mains terminal, for each unit, to see if the problem still exists, there is also a signal main terminal, on the other side of room, that I will try.

Talk about electronic Gremlins, little buggers.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/MWTMNcolumbo5.jpg
Oh, there's just one other thing

I almost forgot to mention, it one of those sodden BBC radio stations (BBC Solent) :barf: with some other radio station underneath. The level of the signal with the volume on the RA300 was max, the radio signal must have been some -30 or -50db below, but it was audible.

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 05:57 PM
Further testing the other room this time, using channel 2, output instead of channel 1, and Iím picking of a BBC radio station. I hate the BBC, there SCUM!:barf::banghead::biting:

WTF is going on here, now this has got to got to be first, the DCX2496 isnít even a f&%king radio receiver, WTF is going on here? Now its ether dodgy (electrical mains) in this building or the scummy BBC radio is sending out one of there British propaganda scummy signals, I f&%king hate the BBC! :banghead::biting:

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 06:09 PM
Here is a picture of the three items that Iím testing the bedroom, Iím really f^%king pissed off, the scummy BBC is the last thing I want to here or see I hate the BBC, there SCUM!:banghead::biting:

hjames
02-13-2008, 06:29 PM
the scummy BBC is the last thing I want to here or see I hate the BBC, there SCUM!:banghead::biting:


I would think if you are picking up BBC radio (is BBC AM or FM? - I'd guess AM) it would be getting into your system in the low level places - input cables and such. Ground all the equipment cases together. Make sure all your covers are on top bottoms and sides, that kind of thing.

Worst case - you can build a Faraday cage for your gear and shield it from the stray signals ... If your test tracks the problem down to your preamps and processors, my guess is that they are all that needs to be shielded - you shouldn't need to wrap the whole room in a cage, just your equipment rack.

Some info -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

http://www.google.com/search?q=Faraday+cage

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 06:37 PM
I would think if you are picking up BBC radio (is BBC AM or FM? - I'd guess AM) it would be getting into your system in the low level places - input cables and such. Ground all the equipment cases together. Make sure all your covers are on top bottoms and sides, that kind of thing.

Worst case - you can build a Faraday cage for your gear and shield it from the stray signals ... If your test tracks the problem down to your preamps and processors, my guess is that they are all that needs to be shielded - you shouldn't need to wrap the whole room in a cage, just your equipment rack.

Some info -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

http://www.google.com/search?q=Faraday+cage



Cheers for that Heather, I’ll going though each item step at a time, and see if this solves (the funny) because funny is what it is, this goes beyond ground-loops where I’ve managed to solve the problem before.

I was picking up “girls want to have fun” only a few moments ago, the level in the bedroom must have been some -90db down it was so faint, yet in the other room it was bit louder.

I wonder if it has something to do with (atmospherics in the upper ionosphere).

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Hell of time for humour, no I don’t fancy one of those LOL :rotfl:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/148653427_4d479c03b5.jpg


Tesla coil - Faraday cage 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDjwyV7qCg

Mike Caldwell
02-13-2008, 08:50 PM
Ad my vote to checking the grounds as well as proper wiring of the xlr cables. Here in Ohio I can get the BBC on short wave, is that the same broadcast you are picking up there. Start bypassing pieces of equipment to help narrow it down.

Mike Caldwell

JBL 4645
02-13-2008, 09:11 PM
Ad my vote to checking the grounds as well as proper wiring of the xlr cables. Here in Ohio I can get the BBC on short wave, is that the same broadcast you are picking up there. Start bypassing pieces of equipment to help narrow it down.

Mike Caldwell

Mike

No this wasn’t on the (short wave band) this was sodden (BBC Solent) which is along the south coast somewhere.

Tell you want the first opportunity, I get, I’m getting a professional 19” rack and then another and another, I’m sick of this crap.

Has to where and how this BBC, signal is sneaking though to the DCX2496 is mystery, and its giving me bellyache. :banghead:

hjames
02-14-2008, 04:24 AM
Mike

No this wasnít on the (short wave band) this was sodden (BBC Solent) which is along the south coast somewhere.

Tell you want the first opportunity, I get, Iím getting a professional 19Ē rack and then another and another, Iím sick of this crap.

Has to where and how this BBC, signal is sneaking though to the DCX2496 is mystery, and its giving me bellyache. :banghead:

Ok, but for us statesiders, what Frequency and type of signal is it?

Where I used to live we had a BIG problem with a local all-news station WTOP-AM - a 50,000-Watt AM (Amplitude Modulation) station that used to be at 1500kc, the "medium-wave" band in the US ... You could pick that puppy up with dental fillings!

Wikipedia says
Medium wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumwave) is 520 kHzĖ1,610 kHz. In the Americas (ITU region 2) 10 kHz spacing is used; elsewhere it is 9 kHz. ITU region 2 also authorizes the Extended AM broadcast band (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_AM_broadcast_band) between 1610 kHz and 1710 kHz. Medium wave is by far the most heavily used band for commercial broadcasting. This is the "AM radio" that most people are familiar with.

Skywave-Rider
02-14-2008, 10:07 AM
I've used ferrite cores successfully in the past. Currently, in my location, I don't need them. But if your grounding/shielding scheme turns out to be OK, give them a try, they can be effective into the AM broadcast band 500-1200 kc, (get the right ones.)
I chose this link because it gives a decent explanation:
http://www.bytemark.com/products/ferbead.htm
Edit: For this application you'd need ferrite "cores" not "beads" as I improperly indicated.

Skywave-Rider
02-14-2008, 11:34 AM
If you look at this page:
http://www.palomar-engineers.com/Ferrite_Cores/ferrite_cores.html
You'll see ferrite cores, and you'd need cores of "77" material to be effective in the medium wave broadcast band. Since they are a core, you'll have to wrap about 3 turns of your signal wire (interconnect) through it to be effective. You'll probably need the larger diameter doughnut, to make it physically work. (More wraps = higher impedance to the RF (radio frequency) interference. I think I bought ferrite cores from Palomar Engineering in the past.

Mike Caldwell
02-14-2008, 02:12 PM
Hello
It's been some time since I warmed up the tubes in my old short wave receiver I have but I remember the BBC somewhere around 6000 khz.

Mike Caldwell

hjames
02-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Hello
It's been some time since I warmed up the tubes in my old short wave receiver I have but I remember the BBC somewhere around 6000 khz.

Mike Caldwell

Yeah, but is that domestic service or worldwide?
I used to pickup BBC world service broadcasts from all over the world on different frequencies, but what is the home service broadcast on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/
Radio 4 - (used to be known as BBC Home service)

trying to find the freq via the Beeb website (what a cluster-fook) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/worldservice/psims/ScheduleSDT.cgi?Pg=Co&Co=GB%3aUnited%20Kingdom%3a0%2d45)
seems like they use
648kHz in SE England and the rest of Europe
720kHz in London and Northern Ireland

God only knows about Cardiff (Torchwood complex)
or Bournemouth (are ye still in Bournemouth laddie?)

JBL 4645
02-14-2008, 03:47 PM
So what youíre saying is the DCX2496 is prone to receiving airwave broadcasts from radio. What puzzles me is why doesnít my yucky mobile, curse interference, why some crappy BBC radio station that is miles away.

Unless thereís a repeater placed somewhere near?

Anyway I havenít noticed this evening, unless it was atmospherics in the upper ionosphere last night, some propagation, for some good USB and LSB sideband chat on the CB radio. The weather has been rather cold these past few days so it could be the change in the temperature that cursed the funny?

Skywave-Rider
02-15-2008, 06:26 AM
Really, so it's gone? Good news. If it was RFI from high field strength, which has to be from a nearby source, I'm assuming moving cables and checking grounds, etc., has altered the "antenna" and made the Behringer a bad radio receiver again. GOOD!

:)

JBL 4645
02-15-2008, 07:13 AM
Really, so it's gone? Good news. If it was RFI from high field strength, which has to be from a nearby source, I'm assuming moving cables and checking grounds, etc., has altered the "antenna" and made the Behringer a bad radio receiver again. GOOD!

:)

Well they could have damn well improved on the frigging reception a bit more. :D

No issues last night well not as, bad as the night before it. I could make out very back of the box faint sound, but that was standing right up to the loudspeaker with my ear against it, and I could just make out a few words that, was so hard to tell what was being said.

It could be the cables acting as an antenna in the room, couldnít it?

hjames
02-15-2008, 07:46 AM
Well they could have damn well improved on the frigging reception a bit more. :D

No issues last night well not as, bad as the night before it. I could make out very back of the box faint sound, but that was standing right up to the loudspeaker with my ear against it, and I could just make out a few words that, was so hard to tell what was being said.

It could be the cables acting as an antenna in the room, couldn’t it?

Damn Sam, when you jam a tuned stub right into your inputs, you're bound to couple that radio right on in!

... Its not the Beeb's fault, its the (poor) cheap shielding on your cables'n'gear!!


BTW - Are you paying your reception TAX for those unwanted signals??? :applaud:

JBL 4645
02-15-2008, 08:10 AM
Damn Sam, when you jam a tuned stub right into your inputs, you're bound to couple that radio right on in!

... Its not the Beeb's fault, its the (poor) cheap shielding on your cables'n'gear!!


BTW - Are you paying your reception TAX for those unwanted signals??? :applaud:

No I am not paying tax on it. I’m a Snips supporter. :D


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/wantedforTAXfuard.jpg

I guess I could send Behringer an email and see what they make of this, because I think no Beheringer supporter should have to put up with this radio interference issue on there DCX2496. :banghead:

JBL 4645
02-15-2008, 08:31 AM
Just sent rely to Behringer support department, lets see what they make of this shall we, I also said if they would like to pop on over to this thread for a chat on this issue, well where see.

Skywave-Rider
02-16-2008, 08:46 AM
Any word from Behringer?
Interference still gone?

JBL 4645
02-16-2008, 08:57 AM
Any word from Behringer?
Interference still gone?

No word form them as of yet in my [inbox] I havenít powered up the JBL room today, I might power it up later on this evening and check if that [radio interference] is still seeping though the system on channel 1 output.

JBL 4645
02-16-2008, 09:07 AM
Well Iíve decided to power it up early, checked by turn the volume level up on the Alesis RA300 from 11 clicks around to full, and not an audio sign of [radio interference] being received.

Maybe it was poltergeist the other night; strange occurrences do happen occasionally, outer space or innerspace interferences, curved space solar winds or black holes.

Anyway Iíve got John Williams playing in the room Star Wars A New Hope disc 2.

Skywave-Rider
02-16-2008, 12:23 PM
Well that's good news.:applaud:
I read in another thread ur working with the room mode calculator for your surround room. Just curious, have you fixed your listening and speaker positions yet?

JBL 4645
02-16-2008, 01:01 PM
No good heavens no, I haven’t really settled down in the JBL room for a few nights now, I’ve just got music by John Williams playing, with the door open while I re-think my planning strategy over and over. The surrounds as they are in the other room are working just fine.

I tilted the and toed in the centre back surrounds to reach the listeners ears using [wideband pink noise] and listened while turning my head a few degrees to left and right, I was looking for a strong focused sound that would make me turn around when Skywalker use the lightsaber in episode 2 and 3.

The focising of the sound effects is wondrous as it shifts pitch and tone moving though the air, [Doppler Effect].


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/StarWarsepisode3RevengeoftheSithlig.jpg


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/StarWarsepisode3RevengeoftheSith-1.jpg


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/StarWarsepisode3RevengeoftheSith-2.jpg

With the two Jedi’s Obi-won and Skywalker locked in mortal combat with Count Dooku, has the lightsbaers clash and sparkle with transparency, it then moves from front LCR to centre back where the lightsaber tone is heard, with Palpatine observing his new appetence.


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/StarWarsepisode3RevengeoftheSith-3.jpg

Then the lightsbaer is panned back to the LCR fronts.


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/Evolution3417/StarWarsepisode3RevengeoftheSith-4.jpg

So there is a good sound in the small room, just not deep enough for the lows I think, and bit more spacing between the seating and the centre back surrounds will add more excitement and spaciousness.

The [room mode calculator] is good but I find it to be a real pig’s ear to figure out, I’m sure over the course of time I’ll twig onto it.

Skywave-Rider
02-16-2008, 05:28 PM
Sorry for the confusion.
And thanks for the play by play images on the SFX, you really make me want a surround setup.
:bouncy:

JBL 4645
02-16-2008, 07:06 PM
Skywave-Rider

No confusion at all I was already confused LOL yes when you get the time buy a neat AVR for processor and use the RCA phones on it to power want ever you desire.

JBL 4645
04-25-2008, 05:52 PM
Behringer DCX2496 in action Star Trek the Motion Picture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArAYvBY1gXc

UreiCollector
04-28-2008, 12:27 PM
your going into clipping. you need to back off the drive (or gain within the unit) to that behringer a bit to avoid clipping.

JBL 4645
04-28-2008, 02:09 PM
your going into clipping. you need to back off the drive (or gain within the unit) to that behringer a bit to avoid clipping.

Hi there

Did you like it, lit up like Christmas tree? No I boasted the levels on purpose but I wasn’t running it via the amplifiers I had the volume on LCR turned down, what do you think I’m crazy to run my amps into clip. LOL

Hope it didn’t scare you? :D

JBL 4645
02-14-2009, 09:50 PM
Here’s something that might be of sound interest, we always read too much from members about favourite scenes in the movies so I thought I’d add picture stills and text to describe that particular scene.

One of my favourite listening subjects is complex Dolby film mixers where the discrete soundtrack offers a few sequences that might go unheard to most of users, for example HEAT 1995.

There’s a moment at the airport where Neil is running across a busy runway with a DC-10 panning from left to right screen channels only! While presented in the centre channel we hear nothing but the Foley work of footsteps panting and breathing that on most home cinema systems this would be severely masked by the aircrafts noisy jet engines!

This presents very little difficulty here with the help of the Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system and its use of features like dynamic EQ audio limiters crossover filters and basic general EQ and much more, for setting up a perfect or near perfect than what you heard before. The matching fronts in my screen array are JBL control 5 LCR fronts placed up front and have been in use since I brought them back in 1990.

Audio masking is one of those headaches most of hath to deal with and thou there are ways around to a small degree it takes a great deal of patience and careful listening.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-10.jpg

As the DC-10 pans from left to right with smooth loudness rather than a shrilly too much for taking sound that would normally be encountered in most home cinema rooms, it presented no trouble with the matching JBL control 5 LCR along with matching Alesis RA300 amplifiers and the brains of the taming all this the affordable Behringer DCX2496 for which none of this would have been possible.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-102.jpg

As Neil runs across the runaway breathing and panting along with footsteps that can be easily heard with the settings on the DCX2496 it makes the whole sequence fresh and exciting to listen to rather than struggling with turning the centre channel up which is what most would do but without some to tame the sound when it gets too loud, you simply back at the beginning again.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilDC-103.jpg

As Neil gets nearer towards us the breathing gets a little louder but being soft and gentle at the same time as the DC-10 pans off to the right Neil runs towards safety in the airfields back felids. I have to say you can really get into it at this moment and the heals on the shoes really hit that concrete nicely.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeildieingcentrechannelbreathin.jpg

With Neil’s luck finely running out Hanna puts Neil, down with several gunshot wounds, with musical background sounds on the left and right and with centre channel carrying breathing exhaling with exhaustion along with a few cricket sound effects.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATNeilslowingfadingawaybreathingi.jpg

A bass note accompanies and enhances the centre channel deeply followed with musical high notes that slowly build up in layers while left and right would normally be drowning out the centre channel by the point and without anyone realizing just how good the centre channel can sound with proper care and adjustment.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATlowbassinthecentrechannelwithbr.jpg

Barely able to hold on Neil finally fades off with last gasp that cuts over the left and right but not too heavily I made sure to maintain the levels so that good stereo separation can still serve the films story.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/HEATclassicDobystereodigitalfilm.jpg

As the music reaches a climatic high, with Neil and Hanna in the mist of breathtaking backdrop too what was brilliant cop thriller from the 1990’s and one of many best Dolby stereo digital soundtracks from that era.

(Moby’s) “God moving over the face of the waters” has a nice tranquil feeling a spiritual feeling that suites last moments of the film until (Eliot Goldenthal) score fades in on the closing credits.

I’m not sure if the settings that I made to the DCX2496 would be of any use to someone who owns this fine little unit or if this thread is wetting someone’s appetite to starting over fresh again with there home cinema with matching amplifiers matching fronts LCR and a Behringer DCX2496 loudspeaker management system to make the magic come alive. Or maybe you have matching loudspeakers and amplifiers but haven’t brought the amazing DCX2496 which as been out for several years now.

This is why 9 times out home cinema 10 users always moan why I can’t hear the centre channel but it goes further than a lot further.


Thought bump this one back up!

As you may or may not be aware my obsession is to maintain and even balance from some yesterdays and today’s modern multi-dimensional thrilling soundtracks, where I can hear the whole thing without the competition of one or two channels masking the other by excessive amounts of db.

Since everything was undone since the last time I was attempting to calm down left and right to allow an easier listening without having to turn the centre up which is bad in my opinion because it can lead to possible damage on the average AVR.

So what have I tired this time around and since I’m not made of money I’ve had to re-think the whole thing though, and therefore have applied some limiting to attack some variables of the soundtrack and some dynamic EQ to enhance softer sounds when the threshold level is low in db on the display, on the dynamic EQ function.

The audio limiter at present, as I’m still running some tests while independently listening to each channel noting the SPL db level, as well as listening at moderate soft level of 70dbc with LF and HF amps set at low level, while the AVR is set at 0db.

Gain for LCR +15.0db
Cain for LF centre +3.0db
Gain for HF centre +3.0db

Crossover
80Hz -24db to 1KHz -24db Linkwitz-Riley for LCR LF
1HKz -24db to 20KHz Linkwitz-Riley for LCR LF

HF EQ centre 100Hz Q 0.1 -1db
LF EQ centre 5.31Kz Q0.1 -3.0db

Dynamic EQ LP LF
+9db
Threshold -17.6db
Attack 1m/s
Release 21m/s

Dynamic EQ HP HF
+9db
Threshold -17.6db
Attack 1m/s
Release 21m/s

Limiter LF
Threshold -14.0db
Release 61m/s

Limiter HF
Threshold -14.0db
Release 61m/s

I’ve managed to get several loud scenes in HEAT 1995 relaxed

Chapter 32, 103 minutes 15 seconds

Chris sees the cops across the road and opens fire, before they can get a chance to fire! db level is relaxed at 72dbc,

Chapter 39, 126 minutes 15 seconds
Hanna comes home and notices a guy setting on the sofa. Vincent, raises his voice! But you do not get to watch…my fuking… television set! 71dbc

Chapter 49, 152 minutes 15 seconds
With Neil on the run with Hanna closely behind him, Hanna aims shotgun and opens fire! db level 70dbc
Neil takes cover and fires back at milder level just under at 153 minutes 04 seconds 68dbc.

So now that I have the centre calmed I have to look at the left and right and get them within a few db as well as making sure the softer sounds on the left and right don’t end up getting masked by the centre channel.

The little JBL control 5 has handled quite well with the independent B-chain configuration.

HEAT is very complex and interesting six-track Dolby mix crated by Soundelux http://www.soundelux.com/ (http://www.soundelux.com/)

If any of you have any doubt that I might be taking the wrong approach with the settings chime in I’ll listen, I mean I’ll read what you have to say, can’t be any worse then what I had to put up with.

JBL 4645
02-15-2009, 02:43 PM
Since last night or rather early hours of today and yes I was buggered I felt buggered after hours trying this and that with trail and error on when adding in the left and right to the centre channel.

I still have bit more tweaking to get the threshold and release time for left and right to fit. Damn, I sure like to have few hundred right now to get a few another DCX and few DEQ2496 to address the frequency response, that would be loud of my shoulders.

JBL 4645
04-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Does applying the HP filer in equal quantity over LCR LF to help reduce harshness for warmer low end sound that might be overtaxed by the middle high end range of that makes any since?

Flodstroem
07-13-2009, 04:03 PM
Hello!
Im in the process to order two new DCX2496 from the USA.
But before doing that I need to ask a question to my US-members regarding the power supply and the working voltage:

Does the US-models have the universal voltage power supply (85-240V/50-60 Hz) or does it only work on 110-120 Volt/60 Hz? :hmm:

The most information on different web-sites including eBay says this:

"Internal switch-mode power supply for maximum flexibility (100 - 240 V~), noise-free audio, superior transient response plus lowest possible power consumption"

But Im wandering if this also means those DCX2496 that sells in the USA nowadays?

Anybody that could confirm this?

JBL 4645
07-14-2009, 09:09 PM
Hello!
Im in the process to order two new DCX2496 from the USA.
But before doing that I need to ask a question to my US-members regarding the power supply and the working voltage:

Does the US-models have the universal voltage power supply (85-240V/50-60 Hz) or does it only work on 110-120 Volt/60 Hz? :hmm:

The most information on different web-sites including eBay says this:

"Internal switch-mode power supply for maximum flexibility (100 - 240 V~), noise-free audio, superior transient response plus lowest possible power consumption"

But Im wandering if this also means those DCX2496 that sells in the USA nowadays?

Anybody that could confirm this?

Flodstroem

Go to Google Product Search within your own region and I’m sure there are many listed at low, low, low prices and the voltage I’d imagine it would be correct for your region.:)


Edit: Update I just visited the site and the retail price is Norway € 386.00 EUR but like I said go to Google Product Search you should find a legitimate PA store supplier that is doing the DCX2496 at low, low, knock down price.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx


Google product search looks like this in case you’re wondering. You might have to click on your computer under Google more and look down the page until you find it, in your own language.

This is the UK Google product search
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=dcx2496&hl=en (http://www.google.co.uk/products?hl=en)

jcrobso
07-15-2009, 12:34 PM
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/254802.html

JBL 4645
08-12-2009, 09:13 PM
few spectrumlab tests with dynamic EQ OFF and ON

This moment is from chapter 25 as commander Farrell (Kevin Costner) runs for his life so that he can prove the manhunt for Russian spy Yuri is bogus and to get David Brice (Gene Hackman) to call off the search while holding evidence that he was present at Susan Atwell (Sean Young) apartment at the time she was killed.

(Oscar winner Maurice Jarre of, Lawrence of Arabia) score adds a trilling techno tension to (No Way Out 1987) with plentifully of bass moments.

Sadly I just leaned last night that Maurice Jarre passed away early this year after a fruitful life of scoring for films and shows. His music is quite memorable on many of scores.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003574/
A few spectrumlab tests with dynamic EQ OFF and ON

This moment is from chapter 25 as commander Farrell (Kevin Costner) runs for his life so that he can prove the manhunt for Russian spy Yuri is bogus and to get David Brice (Gene Hackman) to call off the search while holding evidence that he was present at Susan Atwell (Sean Young) apartment at the time she was killed.

(Oscar winner Maurice Jarre of, Lawrence of Arabia) score adds a trilling techno tension to (No Way Out 1987) with plentifully of bass moments.

Sadly I just leaned last night that Maurice Jarre passed away early this year after a fruitful life of scoring for films and shows. His music is quite memorable on many of scores.
http://www.nndb.com/people/853/000062667/jarre3.jpg
(13 September 1924 Ė 28 March 2009)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003574/

In all Iím using 9 Dynamic EQ modes that is the one that is on ABC and the rest on the impendent outputs LF/HF LCR for the matching modified JBL Control 5. Each LF/HF is powered separately via two Alesis RA300 for LF and two Martantz 1050 for the HF.

The more filters that are used for crossover networks the free percentage gradually reduces same with parametric EQ.

The rest of the EQ is being handed via additional EQ
Technics SH-8058 for left/right
Technics SH-8055 for centre

This is to only trim a few frequencies for possible flat response while using the SH-8055 RTA along with the Soundlab UD236 microphone.


The spectrumlab shows some differences with Dynamic EQ ON.

The Dynamic EQ was set at 805Hz HP -10.0db
DCX 0.0db
Centre HF +2.0db
Threshold -40.0db
Attack 3m/s
Release 105m/s

Additional Dynamic EQ
200Hz LP +10.0db/12db
Attack 3m/s
Release 150m/s
Threshold -30.0


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk279/SpectrumsubbassLFE13417/NoWayOutcentredynamicEQOFF.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk279/SpectrumsubbassLFE13417/NoWayOutcentredynamicEQON.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk279/SpectrumsubbassLFE13417/NoWayOutcentredynamicEQONDynamicLFE.jpg

JBL 4645
09-02-2009, 06:17 PM
Has anyone used the DCX2496 for super-duper basic stereo with the 6 channel outputs or separately for LCR fronts?

Channel inputs
A

Channel outputs
1 sub bass lows its lowest limit is 20Hz
2 bass mid
3 mid
4 high
5 double high
6 ultra high as its limit is 20Khz

I know the cost would be enormous in this mode fashion amps and loudspeaker components dedicated to specific frequency response to play at an even higher quality with less distortion.

JBL 4645
09-13-2009, 03:41 AM
This is direct lead contact with the DCX2496 HF outputs while playing the REW frequency sweep in analogue mode as it is only an analogue device.

Frequency is smooth very ideal if you happen to be Tron that is if you where inside it.

On the outside it’s the complete opposite.

Still it’s a bit hard to find this elusive hiss what frequency is playing up at mostly on the right HF output.

JBL 4645
09-13-2009, 04:10 AM
The response taken is from 6 cm away from the HF. They are not alike! So a bit of minor adjustment needs to be made.

Microphone Beringer ECM8000

JBL 4645
09-13-2009, 04:20 AM
Well a few slight impurities to solve. Itís not the end of the world. Yet!:D

Purple left HF
Green centre HF
Blue right HF

JBL 4645
09-22-2009, 06:33 AM
I did these quick in-room sound tests videos of Alien 3 (1992) centre channel discrete only taken from first edition region 2 DVD six-track Dolby stereo.

Note the differences with the dynamic EQ threshold setting.

Alien 3 cryo-tube cracking dynamic EQ boast +15db threshold 0.0db
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yAcc0sZrQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yAcc0sZrQ)

Alien 3 cryo-tube cracking dynamic EQ boast +15db threshold 30.0db
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du1GZNYsOmE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du1GZNYsOmE)

JBL 4645
09-29-2009, 07:04 AM
Nancy Scream from season 1 Star Trek ďThe Man TrapĒ

Iíve activated the dynamic EQ on the ABC input plus the six dynamic EQ filters on the outputs for a smoother relaxing Nancy scream!

Nancy Scream Star Trek The Man Trap LCR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJAD2qz0R6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJAD2qz0R6Q)

Nancy Scream Star Trek The Man Trap LCR dynamic EQ ON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3SuXFthprM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3SuXFthprM)

JBL 4645
09-29-2009, 07:14 AM
T-Rex VS super dinosaur is Just Bloody Loud! So I looked at the problem how to improve on the softly spoken dialogue as well as soft Foley effects.

Jurassic Park III centre channel DME Normal level
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aYijZzHHQA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aYijZzHHQA&feature=related)

Jurassic Park III centre channel DME Dolby audio compressor ON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WC_y61SZQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WC_y61SZQ&feature=related)

Jurassic Park III centre channel DME Dolby audio compressor with dynamic EQ ON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsK4EqhvSCI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsK4EqhvSCI)

JBL 4645
11-21-2009, 05:37 AM
DolbyTrue Star Trek Bluray crossover settings with Berhringer DCX2496 centre channel only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBsIW87Qns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBsIW87Qns)

hjames
11-21-2009, 06:11 AM
DolbyTrue Star Trek Bluray crossover settings with Berhringer DCX2496 centre channel only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBsIW87Qns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBsIW87Qns)

You got a BluRay player in your system now???

JBL 4645
11-21-2009, 08:50 AM
You got a BluRay player in your system now???

I believe that is what I put in the text unless I’m imagining the brighter crisper sharper image and lossless pure strength of the DolbyTrue and at 24 frames not the silly PAL speed up of (region 2 DVD or PAL laserdiscs and VHS tape) sigh.

I guess you haven’t seen the other thread ware I included picture of the Philips BDP3000, only £97.00 pounds at ASDA! HMV was flogging it off at £124.00 but then that’s just typical of their pricing.

It pays to shop around! And I would have gotten it for a bit less on the internet, but its cheaper than my first Sony DVD player that was £450.00 pounds, now then!;)

JBL 4645
04-28-2010, 11:26 AM
Okay who here is using the DCX2496 mated with an RS-232 lead that works with the pc to DCX2496 as remote?

Seems like its not working on my DCX2496 or Iíve misread the users manual or something else that is eluding me?

Should the mating with pc to DCX2496 send the sound that is presently play though the DCX2496 and illuminate the remote on the pc? That is should the barograph display light-up on the pc.

£10.00 pounds for RS-233 lead! :blink:

Mike Caldwell
04-28-2010, 07:10 PM
I'm not sure about the Behringer units but DBX DSP's use a crossover or what they call a "null modem" RS232 cable to connect a PC to their DSP's. See if there is any mention of something like that in the manual. The cable would look the same as a straight through 232 cable.

jack_bouska
04-29-2010, 03:02 AM
Okay who here is using the DCX2496 mated with an RS-232 lead that works with the pc to DCX2496 as remote?
Seems like its not working on my DCX2496 or Iíve misread the users manual or something else that is eluding me?
Should the mating with pc to DCX2496 send the sound that is presently play though the DCX2496 and illuminate the remote on the pc? That is should the barograph display light-up on the pc.


I have been using DCX-Remote software, with a null modem cable, to control two DCX2496's in five-way crossover configuration for several years now.
The music does not get transmitted, only some of the level (and clipping) information for the bar-graph. Make sure that you check the "stay connected" button on the connect page before clicking enter.
When used with a long rs232 lead, the laptop is useful for real-time adjustements to filters and eq.
Note also that the communication software works better with old pc's (window 95 or 97) rather than new xp or vista operating systems
jack

JBL 4645
04-29-2010, 11:43 AM
I have been using DCX-Remote software, with a null modem cable, to control two DCX2496's in five-way crossover configuration for several years now.
The music does not get transmitted, only some of the level (and clipping) information for the bar-graph. Make sure that you check the "stay connected" button on the connect page before clicking enter.
When used with a long rs232 lead, the laptop is useful for real-time adjustements to filters and eq.
Note also that the communication software works better with old pc's (window 95 or 97) rather than new xp or vista operating systems
jack

jack
Yeah cheers a lot for the information, its XP so no worries no real loss I just wanted to try the lead out and now I know.

Maybe Iíll use the lead for the video projector then. :D

boputnam
04-29-2010, 06:02 PM
Okay who here is using the DCX2496 mated with an RS-232 lead that works with the pc to DCX2496 as remote?

Seems like its not working on my DCX2496 or Iíve misread the users manual or something else that is eluding me?

Ashley...

This can be tricky and frustrating, so double-check everything. Re-read the manual. But, it is a MUCH better way to control these DSP's, so give it a try.

The RS-232 connection allows you to control the DCX2496 through your PC - as Jack sez there is no audio coming through the RS-232 connection. You will need to download and install some "free editor software" from Behringer.com. This will give you interfaces to see your settings and control them.

Under Setup -> Miscellaneous: Make sure the "Port" is set to "PC (RS232).

Make sure you check that the right port is selected in the "editor" software.

Make sure you set the baud rate - the manual recommends 115200, 8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.

If you use a USB-Serial converter, make sure you know which Port gets assigned to the USB you use with the adapter - you will have to make sure this is used in the software.

Have fun...

JBL 4645
04-30-2010, 03:15 AM
Morning bop

Frustrating…I’m about to throw it out the window!:p

I was thinking maybe the lead is faulty/broken yes, I have volt meter to check the pins for possible breakage, but really it’s a brand new lead. LOL

Yes the connecting is set to (RS-232)

Should the commands entered on the pc remote go to the DCX2496 instantaneously or do you have to press a button that will load (the new programming onto the DCX2496)?

This is what the situation looks like at present.
I have gone to the (connection) page some ten or more times now!

(Version)
(Name)
(Device)

^^^Are those suppose to be blank?

The stay connected check isn’t really functioning it seems to always be (checked).

The data does that have to be (unchecked)?

Also when I press the (DCX2496 Search) nothing happens?

Generally I don’t want to mess up the EQ that has been trimmed on it, recently or the crossover filters.

These products where never made with firmware software intended where they.

JBL 4645
04-30-2010, 04:04 AM
This is there latest upgrade so it is firmware upgradeable. I just didnít see a (Ethernet cable) for downloading software apart from the two that are used for daisy chaining DCX2496 together.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx

Wow so how do I go about of uploading the new software the extra 15% for more EQ filters or Dynamic EQ would be an advantage since Iím down to 6% not enough for dynamic EQ unless I trade-off some PEQ filters or crossover filter slopes to lower setting.

grumpy
04-30-2010, 07:47 AM
I've not read the manual, don't want to, and expect that any firmware uploads would be
through the serial port... but I see no evidence that you've connected the unit to your PC
properly. Are you using a 'null-modem' cable, as has been stated by several folks who I
am quite sure know what they are talking about? This would at the very least swap pins
2 and 3 from one end of the cable to the other... it is -not- a straight through cable.

boputnam
04-30-2010, 06:00 PM
(Version)
(Name)
(Device)

^^^Are those suppose to be blank?

The stay connected check isn’t really functioning it seems to always be (checked).

The data does that have to be (unchecked)?

Also when I press the (DCX2496 Search) nothing happens?I think you missed the most important drop down - the one that asks: Communications port?

You have to tell the software how the PC is communicating to the DCX.

Then, hit Search and it will try and synch with the DCX.

hjames
04-30-2010, 07:55 PM
I think you missed the most important drop down - the one that asks: Communications port?

You have to tell the software how the PC is communicating to the DCX.
Then, hit Search and it will try and synch with the DCX.


Well, he still hasn't mentioned if he's using a NULL MODEM cable,
with the comm lines flipped from a conventional RS-232 cable.

If he isn't using the right cable it will never comm to his PC ...

boputnam
04-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Well, he still hasn't mentioned if he's using a NULL MODEM cable, with the comm lines flipped from a conventional RS-232 cable.

If he isn't using the right cable it will never comm to his PC ...

I was going to warn of that too, but...


I have been using DCX-Remote software, with a null modem cable, to control two DCX2496's in five-way crossover configuration for several years now.

xta DSP's require a one-to-one cable, but apprently not the Behringers. Oddly, their manual does not specify...

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 12:12 AM
I've not read the manual, don't want to, and expect that any firmware uploads would be
through the serial port... but I see no evidence that you've connected the unit to your PC
properly. Are you using a 'null-modem' cable, as has been stated by several folks who I
am quite sure know what they are talking about? This would at the very least swap pins
2 and 3 from one end of the cable to the other... it is -not- a straight through cable.

gumpy

No sorry you have got my stumped on the term (Null modem cable)?

Itís connected to the right output terminal on the pc as, bop, said.

Mind you this is an old pc that was used in school and maybe the terminals where disconnected.

Hey its not huge loss, I only wanted to see if it would make the task a little easier. Apparently not! LOL

Iíve had firmware updates to the bluray player without a single hitch.

Why this isnít (or Iíve really overlooked the simplest task in connecting this up) sighÖIím, stumped on this, one fellers.

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 12:20 AM
I was going to warn of that too, but...



xta DSP's require a one-to-one cable, but apprently not the Behringers. Oddly, their manual does not specify...

Whoa, whoa hold on a second there!

Do you mean the cable that patches into the (modem rooter) and plug an extra lead from that device over to the DCX2496 Ethernet lead input?

The one thing I dislike the most is the Behringer user manuals.

Blimey it needs decryption (page for page) to make the illogical sound logical.

There isn’t even a trouble shooting page in this manual! :banghead:

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 12:39 AM
(Top picture) shows the RS-232 connected to the DCX2496

(Bottom picture) shows it connected to right output on the pc.

And yes I’m sure I can find way around this cables. :D

hjames
05-01-2010, 04:55 AM
There is a regular RS-232 cable ... and then there is a NULL Modem Cable!

In a Null Modem Cable, the transmit and receive lines are reversed on one end, compared to a normal RS-232 ...

(OR, you can buy a Null Modem Adapter - its a dongle connects to one end of a regular cable - it flips that pair so you can use it with a REGULAR RS-232 cable)

The Wikipedia explains it pretty well -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_modem_cable

If you are NOT getting communications with the Behringer,
using the wrong cable is PROBABLY your problem.

(Normal use of a Null modem cable would be when you connect 2 PCs together through the serial port - its kind of an obscure cable ...)


Whoa, whoa hold on a second there!

Do you mean the cable that patches into the (modem rooter) and plug an extra lead from that device over to the DCX2496 Ethernet lead input?

The one thing I dislike the most is the Behringer user manuals.

Blimey it needs decryption (page for page) to make the illogical sound logical.

There isnít even a trouble shooting page in this manual! :banghead:

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 05:17 AM
There is a regular RS-232 cable ... and then there is a NULL Modem Cable!

In a Null Modem Cable, the transmit and receive lines are reversed on one end, compared to a normal RS-232 ...

(OR, you can buy a Null Modem Adapter - its a dongle connects to one end of a regular cable - it flips that pair so you can use it with a REGULAR RS-232 cable)

The Wikipedia explains it pretty well -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_modem_cable

If you are NOT getting communications with the Behringer,
using the wrong cable is PROBABLY your problem.

(Normal use of a Null modem cable would be when you connect 2 PCs together through the serial port - its kind of an obscure cable ...)

No not wrong cable (male and female) on each end of the cables otherwise I wouldn’t be able to connect the two ends up.

It’s puzzling. I should have had this up and running days ago.

Anyway I’m moving on the DCX2496 is working fine as it is, its just not communicating between (pc and DCX).

Yeah I'm looking at the link, cheers:)

It could it not be the upload is faulty? I loaded it a year or more or so ago.

Would fully removing the program and (uploading it again make a difference)?

hjames
05-01-2010, 05:29 AM
No no - it has nothing to do with the connector GENDER, male or Female connectors, it has everything to do with the Transmit and Receive (TX and Rx) lines in the connectors ... its all about the throughput! You can have a male or a female DB9 connector at each end - but the pairs must be crossed if the Behringer wants a null modem cable.

You can have a cable that connects up FINE, but the signal can't get through if it doesn't have the TX and Rx flipped as it does in a Null Modem config ...
TX on the one device MUST go to the RCV pin on the other

If the computer's TX line is connected to the TX line on the Behringer - they can't talk, so
no data communications between PC and DCX, NADA, Kaput!

This is a real deal - if you need a NULL Modem cable as the other folks keep saying, a regular serial cable won't work. Period, end of sentence ...





No not wrong cable (male and female) on each end of the cables otherwise I wouldn’t be able to connect the two ends up.

It’s puzzling. I should have had this up and running days ago.

Anyway I’m moving on the DCX2496 is working fine as it is, its just not communicating between (pc and DCX).

Yeah I'm looking at the link, cheers:)

It could it not be the upload is faulty? I loaded it a year or more or so ago.

Would fully removing the program and (uploading it again make a difference)?

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 06:16 AM
No no - it has nothing to do with the connector GENDER, male or Female connectors, it has everything to do with the Transmit and Receive (TX and Rx) lines in the connectors ... its all about the throughput! You can have a male or a female DB9 connector at each end - but the pairs must be crossed if the Behringer wants a null modem cable.

You can have a cable that connects up FINE, but the signal can't get through if it doesn't have the TX and Rx flipped as it does in a Null Modem config ...
TX on the one device MUST go to the RCV pin on the other

If the computer's TX line is connected to the TX line on the Behringer - they can't talk, so
no data communications between PC and DCX, NADA, Kaput!


This is a real deal - if you need a NULL Modem cable as the other folks keep saying, a regular serial cable won't work. Period, end of sentence ...

Let me see if I have this straight now.

There are two types of leads?

I trust that is the wrong question.:(

Okay which side on the pc would be the (TX) transmit?


Edit:
Okay Iíve double checked with the box, thank goodness I didnít toss it away in the dustbin!

Yes it says Serial on the box.

Wow lucky I brought an all-day bus ticket. Okay Iím heading out down to Maplin and get this changed over to (RS-232 crossed lead).

I might be able to get this resolved after-all.

Cheers Heather :)

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 09:31 AM
Would you believe this town doesnít do RS-232 lead that is crossed over!

I got a refund then went to D.J. Electronics and they didnít have crossover lead, much less an adapter that would make it doable.

So after small (chit chat) the owner got me thinking. Why not cross the leads wires over by cutting the lead in half.

All I need to do is find the pins that are colour coded with volt meter and attach the wires up with the (connector) and swap the wires over (2 to 3 and 3 to 2).

Lead same length only cost £3.00 pounds over a £10.00 lead sigh.

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 09:52 AM
Well lead is cut-in-half now all I need to do is run the volt meter on it to find out which colour is pin (2 and 3)?

Sooty was lending a paw. :D

JBL 4645
05-01-2010, 10:10 AM
Brown is 2
Red is 3

That was rather easy.

Okay I need to connect the rest of the leads up including the ground lead and the (swap wires 2 and 3 around).

That is (Brown 2 to red 3).