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kingjames
06-20-2007, 04:18 PM
I would like to see the Off Topic area re-instated for the following reason's. I will try to write in words why I think this could work again.

It is an avenue to discuss world events that effect us all, there should be guidelines stated here and a code of conduct that should be mandatory.

Such codes and guidelines could be no religion,no politics, no name calling,no threatning,these are only examples.These guidelines and codes whatever they may be must be up front so that there is no misunderstanding.Maybe a signed pledge by members will work.

This will work but it can only work with the help of the moderator's.They are the ones who must make sure all codes and guidelines are met. I for one will trust their judgement.

This ot area is an area where many things have happened for me. It allowed me to meet other people who have the same interests and not just in speakers. I have made good friends here and in this area it was nice just to post a greeting to one of them if I felt like doing so.

I did not clutter up other area's of the forum with these issues where these issues would have hijacked someone else's thread or be put into a situation where one had to read it .

There should be no more complaining about the OT area because it is an area that is off topic and in most case's you shouldn't be surprised that JBL may not always be spoken here.

Don't come to this area if you are not concerned with off topic material but, if you do come to this area then don't complain about it's content as long as the content is within the guidelines and codes set. You are in control of you're mouse and no one makes you come to this area.

I need other's to chime in here as they use words much better than I.

I only hope this is a start.

4313B
06-20-2007, 04:27 PM
I simply want it to be private by invite and out of reach of searchbots. That coupled with a few rules (e.g. No Deadwood social interaction terms, porn, gunfights, etc.) and a global moderator model should take care of the whole mess. Anyone can opt out as they so choose.

kingjames
06-20-2007, 04:39 PM
I simply want it to be private by invite and out of reach of searchbots.

I never thought of this but you are right.Off topic might be better off private.But like you said it should not be the O.K. Corral!

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 04:39 PM
I simply want it to be private by invite and out of searchbots reach. That coupled with a few rules and a global moderator model should take care of the whole mess. Anyone can opt out as they so choose.YES, I agree, as you may have read in my earlier post in Signatures.

I would like to see it as a private section, to keep bots out, AND if there are members who cant or dont want to partake in conversation that may get slightly bawdy, they dont have to be a member of that section.

In all honesty, we really do need a section like this, where we can just talk, maybe a bit of whatever as long as not really degenerate!

However, it also needs to be structured correctly, and kept out of the public veiw. The rules can be set up so that IF we have any member that repeatedly gets into serious name calling and confrontational throw downs, and other episodic dramas, they get 2 or 3 times and after this THEY ARE OUT! PERIOD! AND WE ENFORCE THIS 1 RULE TO THE HILT!

MOST of all, I would want members that do not wish to see or read things that may pop up in a section like this, TO JUST NOT REGISTER FOR IT!

To be fair to everyone, we are all adults, and should be able to have a spot where the adults can talk.

Again, this is just me, Scott.

:)

kingjames
06-20-2007, 04:51 PM
Great Scotty, I suggest a fee to use this area and make it private.This might eliminate the trouble makers and will definately take care of the spammers. (haven't seen many spammers here lately,great job moderators) Doesn't have to be much but in my opinion it is a priviledged area and maybe should be earned in some way.

Just writing some suggestions as I know how people feel about fee's. I for one wouldn't mind a small fee to use this area.

4313B
06-20-2007, 04:52 PM
YES, I agree, as you may have read in my earlier post in Signatures.No, I must have missed it, but you know the drill, great minds and all that stuff... :rotfl:

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 04:57 PM
Ive suggested a paid fee, that does sound like a good idea. It isnt up to me however, that is Dons decision to make.

OTOH, a paid sections existence would be known about, so, maybe Giskards idea of " By Invitation " or something along those lines might be better. This way, its truly a private section.

I have a more than a fairly good idea of who gets into spats, who balks at slightly bawdy and mature or controversial content, so, why couldnt we make this work this way?

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 05:05 PM
However, it also needs to be structured correctly, and kept out of the public veiw. The rules can be set up so that IF we have any member that repeatedly gets into serious name calling and confrontational throw downs, and other episodic dramas, they get 2 or 3 times and after this THEY ARE OUT! PERIOD! AND WE ENFORCE THIS 1 RULE TO THE HILT!

Scott that's the key with no exceptions fairly across the board all members with no "pass" cards. All laid out up front with both the code of conduct and any content restrictions clearly defined before you enter.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 05:10 PM
Exactly. When you go into that section, you already knew the rules, and the rules are enforced.

IT can work. I believe that!

:)

4313B
06-20-2007, 05:20 PM
Can you go ahead and draft up a proposed set of rules Scotty?

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 05:38 PM
they get 2 or 3 times and after this THEY ARE OUT! PERIOD! AND WE ENFORCE THIS 1 RULE TO THE HILT!

Hello Scott

We would have to structure it that if you don't do well in Off Topic you don't automatically get booted off the site completely unless you do something really stupid like threaten personal harm. I can see someone doing just fine here and not doing well there depending on the subject matter. We would also have to strictly enforce what goes on in Off Topic stays there. Don't want a repeat of Grudge Posting on the Main Forum that started in the old Off Topic Forum. A private forum might work. Let's see what shakes out and what Don has to say.


Rob:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 05:57 PM
When I say OUT, I mean out of the OT section. Not the entire forum.

I will begin thinking of what rules should be proposed, and from that point, we can all make modifications, additions, and subtractions as a team, and input from members.

Rules.

1. No threats of violence. This one is obvious!

2. No name calling.

3. IF you dont want to hear adult talk, adult humor, or possibly see an adult image ( within reason, nothing beyond what we see on TV and in MOST movies ) do not look at it, or dont partake in the OT section.

4. NO pornography. Meaning hard sexually explicit pornography. A picture of the Statue of David is OK, though! Anna Nicole Smith didnt bother me, either! Again, this is an adult OT section, if you dont want to see a person in a thong bathing suit on the Beach in Miami, DONT LOOK AT IT!

5. Religion? Im on the fence with this one, as many a day, religious events or things do come into discussion within our daily lives! This needs teamwork to figure out!

6. Politics? Another hotbed that frequently provides plenty to talk about, and can potentially incite riots, BUT, political agenda, events, and things ARE part of our lives. Teamwork needed here for this one too!

More to come, I have to work now for a while, but, look at these, and give me input, and suggestions. If you think I have overlooked something, please, SUGGEST IT!

:)

edgewound
06-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Religion, politics and the news are pretty much intertwined these days, so keeping personal viewpoints personal without indirectly offending someone is gonna be the short straw that keeps the OT from combusting.

That will take some surely member-responsible self-moderation to test. Some people like to stir the pot just for the fun of it.

I'm all for it if people can respect each other and learn how to communicate in writing without a flamethrower in tow....and convey sarcasm and humor effectively.

Wow...what a project for a college Communications student.

Now there's an idea...present it to a college intern for course credit.

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 06:21 PM
Yes, I agree. AND member self moderation WAS the weakest link in the old OT section!

However, things happen, we talk about them, its current events.

I love cynical and sarcastic humor, I DO NOT LIKE humor that is designed to hurt someone else. It is usually easily spotted when one person is deliberately attacking another in code, or subtle or not so subtle inuendo.

It does all come under the heading of respect, and for the most part, the members here are great. Usually, its one or two that muck it up. Always been the case. In the instance of repeat offense, like after the 3rd time, you lose adult ot priveledges. I am hoping that if people really are having a good time, and they KNOW we are serious about the rules set in place they wont GO THERE!

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 07:03 PM
Religion and Politics are really tuff topics. You may want to limit some aspects initially to see how it goes and then open things up if everyone is comfortable and the the place is running smoothly.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 07:23 PM
OK, I have a few minutes.

Yes, religion and politics are tough topics, but, you cant deny, they are part of our everyday lives too!

I might venture to say that we should be able to hold normal conversation without becoming overly excitable? If something happens, the govt decides to abolish income taxes, we shall say, I would jump for joy, and I want to talk about it.

And, if something bad happens, we like to talk about that too. In some cases different perspectives, differering opnion, etc. In some cases, we comfort each other through bad or horrible incidents.

Rob, do you have any way of defining what is a SLOW START into talking about religion and politics? OTOH, I kind of feel the start of a new private OT section, the beginning is great and runs smoothly.

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 07:25 PM
Rob, do you have any way of defining what is a SLOW START into talking about religion and politics?

Sure it's like smoking without inhaling.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 07:36 PM
Sure it's like smoking without inhaling.

Rob:):rotfl:

Maron Horonzakz
06-21-2007, 05:34 AM
Let me get this straight....You want a private talk site by invitation? A private talk club, Invitation or paid exclusive site,,,How about Email Thats what its for.. This sounds very eleteist like a buisness conference line.. or a private confessional group...Or work theropy sessions? :D;):):blink::bs::p:D:barf:

JBLRaiser
06-21-2007, 06:13 AM
Let me get this straight....You want a private talk site by invitation? A private talk club, Invitation or paid exclusive site,,,How about Email Thats what its for.. This sounds very eleteist like a buisness conference line.. or a private confessional group...Or work theropy sessions? :D;):):blink::bs::p:D:barf:

You're invited:dancin:

Maron Horonzakz
06-21-2007, 06:19 AM
Thank you I,ll leave my gun at the door,,,But I,ll keep the knife.;)

Robh3606
06-21-2007, 08:43 AM
Hello Heather

I don't know why you deleted your post. It certainly is another option that would be fine by me.

Hello Maron


Let me get this straight....You want a private talk site by invitation? A private talk club, Invitation or paid exclusive site,,,How about Email Thats what its for.. This sounds very eleteist like a buisness conference line.. or a private confessional group...Or work theropy sessions? :D;):):blink::bs::p:D:barf:

Thanks I won the bet. I knew that would come up. This is all in the lets see stage. There is no solid concensus if we are going to do this. If we did it wouldn't be exclusive where there was a selection commitee to join the country club if that's what you mean.

Rob:)

louped garouv
06-21-2007, 09:23 AM
just to throw something else out there,
I have been on forums that require so many posts
in the regular section that can be reviewed
(by whomever/for whatever) prior to getting into the "special"
parts of the forum...

I think it was to show that they were
vested someway in the site to begin with...

:)

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 09:26 AM
Good Afternoon, Everybody,

Actually, by 'Private Section' that means a section that guests and non members cant see. Any forum member would be able to join. ANY OF YOU!

The option to not be part of this section comes in where a member that doesnt like this type of talk, or flinchs at seeing images of things not totally appropriate on the regular forum.

The RULES of this section would also be different. But, also strictly enforced. You go into this section KNOWING the rules, and that means you get into vocal fist fights, your out of this section, PERIOD!

Another thing on my mind is that those of you who DONT like this type of thing, dont try to constrain the rest of the forum by saying why do we have to have this. If we were at ANY office or factory, even JBL, they talk about more than just what they make! People talk to each other about dating, buying things, who looks good, who has whatever going on in their lives, whats hot in the world, politics, crime, anything, etc!!!!!!!!! Simply put, its a place for people to socialize, and talk, about whatever is going on in their lives or the world. It does, IMHO, become fun, and maybe even a bit ' Locker Room ' at times, but, hey, WERE HUMAN TOO, and cannot be expected to talk speakers all the time. SO? If you dont want this, thats fine, but dont tell the rest of us we cant have it because you dont like it, THATS elitist thinking too!

Most importantly, a section like this acts like a pressure release valve and can actually keep the entire forum running smoothly and drama free because its a place where we can let out hair down, and BE OURSELVES, and have FUN! THIS is important to. Cause let me tell you, audio is amazing, BUT audio is WORK for me, it isnt always hobbyist, and lifting cabinets that weigh several hundreds of pounds, and reconfiguring the system is WORK, and sometimes I just want to have FUN too.

Truthfully, and I mean no one any disrespect, but I was waiting for anyone to say why do we need this? Because some of us like to just BS with each other too. Kind of like going to the tavern after work and having a beer with your buddies.

So, if you dont want this, you dont have to have it, but you'll have the option of taking it or not!

ALL members will be welcome, if they want to be in that section! In that repect, IT WONT be elitist like 'Oh Im sorry your not dressed properly, you cant come in here'!

Does this explain things? I really hope it does, because I happen to be FOR a section like this! Again, this is just ME, Scott. :)

hjames
06-21-2007, 09:28 AM
just to throw something else out there,
I have been on forums that require so many posts
in the regular section that can be reviewed
(by whomever/for whatever) prior to getting into the "special"
parts of the forum...

I think it was to show that they were
vested someway in the site to begin with...

:)

Think of the logistics of that - how many moderators would THAT kind of system need?

My personal thought is that there is a need for a real-time chatroom somewhere, tho maybe not on the main site, so folks here could go there and chat in real time (kinda like text messaging or PMs or IRC). That would allow a higher level of interactivity and could provide for a more conversational discussion between the folks who want to do so, and maybe limit some of the off topic posts in the threads in the main forums. Just a thought, but there is a different between a chatroom and the kind of individual postings board like the Forums currently have.

If folks want to chat they could have a chatroom to do so ...

louped garouv
06-21-2007, 09:30 AM
+1 vote by me

:)

louped garouv
06-21-2007, 09:32 AM
Think of the logistics of that - how many moderators would THAT kind of system need?

..

there are about a dozen mods on the site i am thinking of....

Maron Horonzakz
06-21-2007, 09:39 AM
I know another forum (audio circles) that has a LIMBO site. Where any thing not audio is thrown into....They also had a special fight club site where you could get things off your chest but was closely moderated to eliminate threats. Could get interesting..

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 09:44 AM
Think of the logistics of that - how many moderators would THAT kind of system need?

My personal thought is that there is a need for a real-time chatroom somewhere, tho maybe not on the main site, so folks here could go there and chat in real time (kinda like text messaging or PMs or IRC). That would allow a higher level of interactivity and could provide for a more conversational discussion between the folks who want to do so, and maybe limit some of the off topic posts in the threads in the main forums. Just a thought, but there is a different between a chatroom and the kind of individual postings board like the Forums currently have.

If folks want to chat they could have a chatroom to do so ...Well, basically isnt that what this would be? A chatroom within the the forum, one tht is not veiwable by all the guests, non-members, and people who just dont want it!

Again, I reiterate my position on this, Heather, IF you dont want to be part of that section, you dont have to be, BUT, let the folks that do, have their place to be.

Truthfully, about moderating this, WE can handle it! Believe that. And I am willing to work this room as moderator. So whats the problem, havent I always tried my best to be fair? If Im willing to do the work, whats else is neccesary to know? But, there is more than just myself here, and Im sure I would not be alone in having to take care of things. The forum has an owner, and administrators who oversee everything.

:)

:)

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 09:48 AM
I know another forum (audio circles) that has a LIMBO site. Where any thing not audio is thrown into....They also had a special fight club site where you could get things off your chest but was closely moderated to eliminate threats. Could get interesting..Yeah, Ive heard about that, but I dont know if I would want to take it that far, Barroom brawls will get UGLY!

I just want to enjoy myself! Not fight.

hjames
06-21-2007, 09:55 AM
Again, I reiterate my position on this, Heather, IF you dont want to be part of that section, you dont have to be, BUT, let the folks that do, have their place to be.


Scott, I've got no quarrel with a chatroom, OT section , private room bullpen, whatever you call it. Sounds like a fun place - I may join if that wouldn't dampen the enthusiasm of it.

I never asked for the OT area to go away, but I agree with the feeling that arguments in OT could and did spill over into the main threads. Once the old OT area was shut down I was all for just moving on and not whining about it ad naseum. I didn't want it gone, but once it was gone I didn't want to see every other thread on site turn into a lamentation of it.

But I have a strong feeling that some folks don't get around enough - and live way too much in web forums ... ITS SUMMERTIME PEOPLE - GO OFFLINE FOR A BIT!

My post below was just talking about software and the functional aspects - I really didn't aim to get into the right or wrong of it.

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 10:25 AM
OK, point made. And you and everyone else would be most welcome to partake.

Yes, there were spill overs from OT into the main forum, and that was a problem, but, people express a desire to once again have a section like that. I want to give to them, but, this time, there will be rules, and they will have to be followed.

Spill over from this section into the main forum would most likely have to result in loss of OT priveledges.

OTOH, we are adults, and should be treated as such. I say we give it a shot, before we pre-judge it.

:)

jim campbell
06-21-2007, 11:03 AM
well there you are.......i know i said id shut up but allow me to chime in one more time on this ..............scotty has graciously volunteered to oversee this undertaking and to my knowledge has shown the temprament and restraint necessary.............

mech986
06-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Hi Scotty,

Thanks for all your thoughtful posts and your volunteering to potentially moderate any OT section that may get created again. I've had a lot of experience moderating and observing moderation at few other large forums. I've a couple of suggestions:

I do like the ideas of invitation or qualification only as I believe in the "Don's house" model. This is a Lansing Heritage site and its primary goal is the discussion and dissemination of Lansing related topics and information. As a forum, Don/administration/moderators then can add access to topics or discussions they deem appropriate. The idea of letting only certain appropriate (by way of previous or known behavior, or sticking with the rules) members into private areas is a good one. Common sense at your own home limits guests access to certain areas of your home or your personal life/ideas/thoughts till you feel they can have it, if ever.

I'd still recommend avoiding the topics of politics and religion. There are lots of folks here and many from other countries. Individual, ethnic, and nationalistic issues on politics and religion can get going and go way out of hand by people simply posting their views and getting into huge "discussions/arguements" over them, let alone trying to convince others. There are LOTS of other forums/outlets specifically for that type of discourse and I would submit that LH, even in an OT section, should steer clear of that. It is just a lot easier to deal with if those topics remain off-limits - I don't consider that censorship but rather part of the groundrules. Many other prior audio forums get degenerated into "==ssing matches" between members and its becomes another mess that reflects poorly on the forum/site and all the other people there. rec.alt.audio comes to mind here.

Also, regarding "the local bar" concept - I think that's great for discussion and general BS'ing among members. What I would say though is that regarding any "adult" or really off-color posts/photos/discussion topics, that should be, if considered, in its own separate subforum and again by invitation or qualification only. Think of the adult section as "the back room or back alley" where there may be stuff you wouldn't want your spouse or kids to access. Splitting the known "adult" topics/photos/etc. from the OT section keeps it a bit tidier and cleaner organizationally and members in OT don't have to have that in their section. Those interested and have access to "adult" can then go there if they want to.

Lastly, and this is really important. Everyone who is a member should realize they are entitled to NONE of this. The only thing we're really entitled to is the opportunity to is register, log in, and view the main forums and the PUBLIC areas of LH. That's what this site is about IMHO, and that should remain. Any other areas created for PRIVATE use are truly at the discretion of the admins. I truly believe people earn the right to more privelages and rights by their actions and behavior and not just because they are here. I think admin can select appropriate members and maybe in turn that forum's members can invite or recommend others as needed. And if you abuse your membership or invitation, you can be denied access (or thrown out in stronger language) of that specfic section or forum as mentioned above.

If you go by the subscriber model as some forums have, then you can place certain benefits or forum access within that model. Note though that inherent in the subscriber model should be "the right to refuse service to anyone at anytime" if stuff gets out of hand. Just because you paid for it doesn't mean you can abuse it.

My 077 worth and I'll raise you a small butt cheek (pun intended :D, no I won't use the moon smilie :blink:). Just trying to keep on Lansing topic.

Regards,

Bart

duaneage
06-21-2007, 12:22 PM
OT ended up being a bad place to give and receive bad vibes. The site is better without it.

My .02

kingjames
06-21-2007, 12:32 PM
OT ended up being a bad place to give and receive bad vibes. The site is better without it.

My .02

I think this was because there were no rules.

hjames
06-21-2007, 12:37 PM
Site rules - posted in 2005 - before the recent troubles

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2696

Revised 2 minutes later ..
here is the first post in that thread - from June 2004 ...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=23819&postcount=1

No flames meant or implied no sarcasm either.
I'm just stating that rules have been here all along

edgewound
06-21-2007, 02:33 PM
Site rules - posted in 2005 - before the recent troubles

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2696

Revised 2 minutes later ..
here is the first post in that thread - from June 2004 ...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=23819&postcount=1

No flames meant or implied no sarcasm either.
I'm just stating that rules have been here all along

That's a good post, Heather.

I'm all for an OT section as long as people abide by the rules.

We see daily that rules are worthless if they aren't read, understood, respected, nor enforced. If people could understand that, there would be no need to moderate.

Sort of like the laws of the US. We keep getting more new laws on the books that we already have, and it doesn't seem to matter.

My hats off to you Scotty for willing to take this on.

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 03:33 PM
Thank you to everyone for input.

I do want to state upfront, that when I say 'adult' I mean it as in normal adult conversation, and a bit headier than what goes in the regular forum, BUT NOT all the way hardcore or anything like that. More like your local pub, NOT a swingers club. LOL.

I do agree that the old OT section had problems, however, was it the OT section that actually caused the problems, or some that were using the section? IF this new ( if it gets created ) OT section is properly run, there shouldnt be any problems. And, as I said, and Rob backed me on, the rules get enforced, so you would have a predetermined limit for screw ups, and once you burn that, YOUR OUT OF THE OT!

I recognize that people want and need to talk to each other on a social level, as well as all the tech stuff, and audio gear. Even with me, it just isnt always about audio, JBL or whatever. Hey, theres other stuff going on in life, ya know. Like Edgewound getting married and seeing pics of his new family, THATS life, and it isnt audio, but it is LIFE! And sometimes, yeah, we want to be a bit locker room too! I was in Manhattan this afternoon, wow, sun is shining, people everywhere, I bought some stuff, music for the weekend, new I Tech amp, some cologne, and shirts. Its about everything. And, yep, I was watching pretty ladies walking down the streets!

I havent been posting in a while, and once I started, I forgot how much I do enjoy being here, but, IMO, its a bit dry without an OT type section!

Lastly, yes, Im willing to put the effort into moderating it, and thats it for now!

:bouncy:

MJ Bing
06-21-2007, 10:55 PM
This forum was created to discuss JBL
and JBL related subjects.
Not to bitch and moan about religion or politics
or anything other than JBL.
Should you feel the need to bitch and moan, I
suggest you take it OUTSIDE. It's right up your alley.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/outside/bbs.html

Michael :D

JBLRaiser
06-22-2007, 06:20 AM
only a few were grossly offensive in their remarks. Those few would be culled from the rest and a civil discourse would result. I vote for freedom of speech the old fashion way, with civility. Be nice if you disagree.:applaud:

Ian Mackenzie
06-22-2007, 07:33 AM
Sorry but dont see the need.

For all the sited reasons like meeting other members that will happen if its meant to happen via mutal interest and a pm or project ..whatever ad then its about sharing experiences and information.

There appears of be a valiant presence of moderation in this instance yet previously by their own admission there is/was "a lack of inclination or desire" to keep up on the forums that actually matter. Like keeping a thead on topic for example and checking totally incorrect information.

The other point is I am sure your loved ones are more important than reading postings of someones point of view who you don't know or have ever meet..and in some cases would not want to meet.

What's the point? It often ends in messy disagreements and banning.

I other words, get a life

Titanium Dome
06-22-2007, 08:23 AM
The old off topic forum served a number of useful and graceful purposes. It wasn't all bad; in fact, it was mostly good.

It gave Don a place to post some of his interesting photographic essays, which I truly enjoyed. It was a main platform for our brother northwood to post some truly amazing pictures, including one of the best photos I've ever seen. Sadly, now it is lost to me. It offered me and others the chance to create small threads of beauty and interest and entertainment through words and pictures.

Yes there were a few photos that for cultural or political reasons, a few members raised concerns over. IMO these were gross over-reactions and demonstrated an inclination that runs through American culture that isn't so pleasant: quick judgment and cultural intolerance. Now that's a topic for off topic, eh?

In addition, OT would be an appropriate venue for edgewound's and magnet3's happy news. It would be the right place for Scott and me to rev up a discussion on bumper cars, hot dogs, and summer nights. It would be a good place for Heather to show the backyard in bloom, or Jim to tell about his grandkids, or Ian about his last (or next) trip to the States, or folks to talk about their dogs, cats, fish, cars, etc.

This was at least 50% or more of the old OT in terms of content, though not necessarily in terms of post. The conflict centered around a very limited set of topics which generated petty, vindictive, defensive, and mean-spirited streams of posts that really ramped up the post count in those threads.

I looked at northwood's photo essays countless times, but didn't add a post every time I looked. Yet, some inane topic like Anna ..... (I can't even write it) death seemed to attract posts like flies to a spoiling carcass on a Tennessee road in summer. I probably visited that putrid thing four times, posted a few, then abandoned it and wouldn't care if it were closed and removed.

But I dislike the "baby with the bath water" approach that shovels that thread, Don's photos, northwood's work, the anti-Bush stuff, etc., etc. all into to one trash bag and sets it by the curb.

That, my friends, is overreaction, and it strips the site of perspective and depth.

Why do we need perspective and depth, when all we should be talking bout is Lansing Heritage and nothing more?

Well, first because we already tacitly acknowledge that we need it by hosting several non-Lansing forums. Sure, we dress it up by calling them Lansing-related or forum issues, but that really is just a way to dress up the fact that they're off the main topic yet we still REALLY want to talk about them.

Second, we are all humans with depth and perspective in our personalities. The notion that we can parcel ourselves out and seek out different sites for each element of our personalities is a neat logical trick, but in practice not so neat to execute. It has the emotional and psychological effect of stripping us into discrete pieces which we try to address in the different venues where we present one-dimensinal, cardboard images of ourselves.

Here's my Lansing face. Here's my picture taking face. Here's my music face. Here's my woodworking face. Here's my movies face. Etc.

We have the ability to make the site a representation of the reality of Jim Lansing's legacy. It was brilliant, visionary, complicated, conflicted at times, filled with family and hopes and dreams, technical, musical, cinematic, rough, troubled, and real. In other words, it had depth and perspective.

If the main problem is moderation or the workload, then someone needs to address the simple solution that's been floated here often: more moderators. It seems as though there's a resistance to a simple solution.

Scott can't/shouldn't shoulder this alone. It's unreasonable. If others have their hands full managing their current duties, then find additional help. But let's not have the impression that moderators belong to a finite group, that there's no possible way to increase the numbers, or that it's a special club that no one else gets to join serve as excuses for inaction on this.

I won't single anyone out in public, but I think a number of us could identify one or two or three members whom we believe could add to those ranks.

So, my vote is "yes."

Robh3606
06-22-2007, 08:40 AM
If the main problem is moderation or the workload, then someone needs to address the simple solution that's been floated here often.: more moderators. It seems as though there's a resistance to a simple solution.


I see it as more of a self Moderation and peer Moderation issue. We can add 10 more mods but we are all doing this part time. I am not saying that adding a couple to help Scott is a bad idea. It's more an issue on the overall code of conduct of the members and how high that mark is set. I would simply love it if I never had to intercede into another thread as a Moderator. I know that is unrealistic but I think if we all try to keep the bar high it would make the overall experience here much more enjoyable.

Rob:)

Ducatista47
06-22-2007, 08:50 AM
For me,the attraction of an off topic section was the sharing of mutual interests with people I respect. It is implied that if one respects someone, one will treat them with respect. Was that the case?

Not consistently, and I believe the moderation needed, even though voluntary, is better used elsewhere here. If I want to share something with a member, I will PM him (or her).

I think we are nice people here, but the misunderstanding this format leads to is frequent and frequently a disaster.

Clark in Peoria

Zilch
06-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Dome's presentation is compelling, primarily in the distinction it makes between OT subject matter. There is a major difference between Edge's wedding, Northy's pics, Heather's blooms, and Jim's grandkids as a class, versus the political, religious, and cultural crapfest which ultimately overtook that forum.

If OT comes back, I'd prefer if the latter were excluded. I enjoy learning more about members here as persons, where they live, and about their lives, but what those other discussions reveal is more than I want to know, and the spillover is certainly disruptive in the main forums....

sourceoneaudio
06-22-2007, 01:33 PM
First Idea: Make it hidden by invite only, or make it a must apply first b4 entering. Just call it the Freedom Of Speech thread (FOS) and don't moderate it, because it is Freedom Of Speech. Then no one has to waste their time worrying about the content. If you want to participate it is your choice, ENTER AT OWN RISK, but don't bitch about it, if and when things get out of hand, remember YOU make your own enemies. :biting:

Second Idea: Do as the Zilchster and others recommend and bring back the OT thread, but insist it is only about topics of fun, family, other projects, cars, boats, hobbies, and vacations. Nothing offensive, and no bitch festing period. :blink:

Don C
06-22-2007, 02:28 PM
Make it hidden by invite only, or make it a must apply first b4 entering. Just call it the Freedom Of Speech thread (FOS) and don't moderate it, because it is Freedom Of Speech. Then no one has to waste their time worrying about the content. If you want to participate it is your choice, ENTER AT OWN RISK, but don't bitch about it, if and when things get out of hand, remember YOU make your own enemies. :biting:
I guess that I just don't get it. Why would we want something that unpleasant here? You make it sound like a thread where every post is as bad as your avatar.

sourceoneaudio
06-22-2007, 02:37 PM
I voted no for the idea of bringing an OT back. My idea was reflective of all the blowouts previous. If it's hidden and if people want an area like that people like us on the outside wont care what goes on in there.

(if you can't see it :dont-know )

Besides that recommendation was meant more as a joke. I would much rather have a OT area that is not abusive, and more fun. That is if one opens up. ??
We just don't need the same issues that happened b4.


You make it sound like a thread where every post is as bad as your avatar.

Do you like this one better Don?

Rolf
06-22-2007, 03:14 PM
I have voted for a OT forum. Of any kind, just so friends with the same hobby can talk together ... about other things than just speakers and other hi-fi stuff.

I do not know what will became the outcome of this discussion, but I will strongly recommend the the OT forum is brought back in some way.

This will bring back a lot of members, and many of them will give contributions that the forum will have the benefit of. Including me. As it is at this time, I am not interested in giving anything, and I am talking money.

Strange that I should pop in today and read this thread, as I have not been here much since the closing of the OT.

Hope you get to your senses moderators, and open the OT is some way you can accept.

Rolf

P.S. I sent a PM for some time ago (you know who you are). No reply, and that says something to me about the arrogance that I mean should change in this forum.

Rolf
06-22-2007, 03:21 PM
The old off topic forum served a number of useful and graceful purposes. It wasn't all bad; in fact, it was mostly good.

It gave Don a place to post some of his interesting photographic essays, which I truly enjoyed. It was a main platform for our brother northwood to post some truly amazing pictures, including one of the best photos I've ever seen. Sadly, now it is lost to me. It offered me and others the chance to create small threads of beauty and interest and entertainment through words and pictures.

Yes there were a few photos that for cultural or political reasons, a few members raised concerns over. IMO these were gross over-reactions and demonstrated an inclination that runs through American culture that isn't so pleasant: quick judgment and cultural intolerance. Now that's a topic for off topic, eh?

In addition, OT would be an appropriate venue for edgewound's and magnet3's happy news. It would be the right place for Scott and me to rev up a discussion on bumper cars, hot dogs, and summer nights. It would be a good place for Heather to show the backyard in bloom, or Jim to tell about his grandkids, or Ian about his last (or next) trip to the States, or folks to talk about their dogs, cats, fish, cars, etc.

This was at least 50% or more of the old OT in terms of content, though not necessarily in terms of post. The conflict centered around a very limited set of topics which generated petty, vindictive, defensive, and mean-spirited streams of posts that really ramped up the post count in those threads.

I looked at northwood's photo essays countless times, but didn't add a post every time I looked. Yet, some inane topic like Anna ..... (I can't even write it) death seemed to attract posts like flies to a spoiling carcass on a Tennessee road in summer. I probably visited that putrid thing four times, posted a few, then abandoned it and wouldn't care if it were closed and removed.

But I dislike the "baby with the bath water" approach that shovels that thread, Don's photos, northwood's work, the anti-Bush stuff, etc., etc. all into to one trash bag and sets it by the curb.

That, my friends, is overreaction, and it strips the site of perspective and depth.

Why do we need perspective and depth, when all we should be talking bout is Lansing Heritage and nothing more?

Well, first because we already tacitly acknowledge that we need it by hosting several non-Lansing forums. Sure, we dress it up by calling them Lansing-related or forum issues, but that really is just a way to dress up the fact that they're off the main topic yet we still REALLY want to talk about them.

Second, we are all humans with depth and perspective in our personalities. The notion that we can parcel ourselves out and seek out different sites for each element of our personalities is a neat logical trick, but in practice not so neat to execute. It has the emotional and psychological effect of stripping us into discrete pieces which we try to address in the different venues where we present one-dimensinal, cardboard images of ourselves.

Here's my Lansing face. Here's my picture taking face. Here's my music face. Here's my woodworking face. Here's my movies face. Etc.

We have the ability to make the site a representation of the reality of Jim Lansing's legacy. It was brilliant, visionary, complicated, conflicted at times, filled with family and hopes and dreams, technical, musical, cinematic, rough, troubled, and real. In other words, it had depth and perspective.

If the main problem is moderation or the workload, then someone needs to address the simple solution that's been floated here often: more moderators. It seems as though there's a resistance to a simple solution.

Scott can't/shouldn't shoulder this alone. It's unreasonable. If others have their hands full managing their current duties, then find additional help. But let's not have the impression that moderators belong to a finite group, that there's no possible way to increase the numbers, or that it's a special club that no one else gets to join serve as excuses for inaction on this.

I won't single anyone out in public, but I think a number of us could identify one or two or three members whom we believe could add to those ranks.

So, my vote is "yes."

How is I can't write like this? YES I agree.

scott fitlin
06-22-2007, 03:47 PM
You know, you guys should maybe just let it rest a while, I mean this. Everyone pretty much said everything there is to say about this subject, including myself.

Now the comments about who should say what, when to do it, and why it shouldnt are coming in, and hey Ya know, this is the same stuff that fired up the old OT into ending up shitcanned.

I dont know what more to say to you guys, except, this thread in the last few posts is really showing all the reasons we dumped OT in the first place.

And FWIW, IF we were to have another OT, this is why we would like it to be somewhat private, with a controlled entry, TO STOP all the BS and bickering.

But hey, continue on, it wont matter what I say, YOU guys are doing a good enough job of showing why there shouldnt be another OT section.

And here I voted yes, and am willing to donate my time to moderate a section like this, you'se make me wonder, though!

Let it rest, already.

hjames
06-22-2007, 03:53 PM
Rolf

P.S. I sent a PM for some time ago (you know who you are). No reply, and that says something to me about the arrogance that I mean should change in this forum.
Rolf - you sent me a PM a while back and wanted me to call you after we had a disagrement - but I'll be honest, its not likely that I would call Norway on my nickel for an argument

Rolf
06-22-2007, 03:59 PM
:rotfl:

Glad you joined the discussion. Make sure and cast a vote!

I have done my vote bo. Guess what. Y/N?

I believe in a life outside LBL ... Or is it JBL ... Or Lansing Heritage?

Therefore I believe in a OT forum where people can be people and talk about other stuff inside the forum we all love so much. If not inside the forum we have to search the Web, and I do not believe we will find what we seek there anyway.

So ... Please make it come back in one way or another.

I promise to behave and be kind.

Rolf
06-22-2007, 04:02 PM
Rolf - you sent me a PM a while back and wanted me to call you after we had a disagrement - but I'll be honest, its not likely that I would call Norway on my nickel for an argument


:D It was NOT you, and my PM was a serious mail to somebody "high up" in the LH system.

scott fitlin
06-22-2007, 04:16 PM
Because I had nothing left to say. Thats why I never answered your PM. I am truly sorry your still holding a grudge against me for it, but I just had nothing left to say.

Furthermore, I have had to reconsider my position on an OT section as well. The last section of posts on this thread show me that unless we really did run the section with exclusivity, it WILL be the same BS all over again.

I will not moderate a section with people whining and bitching why this, and not that, and who says?

GREAT, you guys want OT? YOU GUYS talk to Don, IM OUT!

:banghead:

SMKSoundPro
06-22-2007, 04:17 PM
no.

sorry can't help you there.

(revised quote): "10 - 'Lansing Heritage' has no opinion on outside issues; hence the LHF name ought never be drawn into public controversy."

If you are not sure where this revised quote is sourced from, please ask someone. They will surely know.

Scott M. Koeller.

Rolf
06-22-2007, 04:39 PM
Because I had nothing left to say. Thats why I never answered your PM. I am truly sorry your still holding a grudge against me for it, but I just had nothing left to say.

Furthermore, I have had to reconsider my position on an OT section as well. The last section of posts on this thread show me that unless we really did run the section with exclusivity, it WILL be the same BS all over again.

I will not moderate a section with people whining and bitching why this, and not that, and who says?

GREAT, you guys want OT? YOU GUYS talk to Don, IM OUT!

:banghead:


But it was not you Scotty!! I cant get in tuch with you on PM or e-mail. Can somebody who knows him give a call or e-mail him? It was not him!!!

Sorry about the mess my comment of who that did not reply has done. I have got PM's and now this from Scotty, so I just have to tell you who it is, and it is Don, reganding the donation. Nobody else.

I have no hard fellings to anybody, and I hope nobody has anything against me.

I have apologised for my "blow out" some time ago, and that's it. If anybody have anything to say to me, please PM me.

scott fitlin
06-22-2007, 04:44 PM
Well, I had PM,s from you that I left unanswerd, so I apologize for taking you out of context.

Now it appears we are going to have a trial run on an OT section.

So, lets all just be cool and enjoy the ride!

:D

kingjames
06-22-2007, 04:59 PM
:banana::dancin::banana::cheers::cheers::wave::wav e::wave:

Don McRitchie
06-22-2007, 05:34 PM
I am closing this thread since it has served its purpose.

Don