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View Full Version : 8" or 10" + 2245H for Bass Guitar?



johnaec
02-10-2004, 09:08 AM
Not for a home system, but for a portable rig for bass guitar. I've got a 2245H 18" that I'll be putting in a ported 6.15 cu.ft. cabinet, (small because I need to get it into the trunk of my car for transportation). The 2245 is currently in a larger cabinet, and I've noticed it's hard to get much in the way of clean higher bass harmonics, (600-2500hz), at least as far as dispersion goes.

So I'm thinking of adding an 8" or 10" for this upper range, in a tight , sealed "internal" enclosure. Which would likely fill my needs best? I'm thinking of a 2118H or LE8T-H for 8", or an E or K110 or other pro series 10" if that makes more sense.

I've got a Crest P3500 amp for power, and could do either active or passive crossover. The amp is 400 watts/ch stereo or 800 mono.

Any recommendations/suggestions?

BTW - my home stereo system consists of 4 Jubal L65 and 2 L150, plus other misc JBL...

John

subwoof
02-10-2004, 09:29 AM
Hey guy - the 2245H is the *wrong* choice for your app....the 2240G/H would be much better.

The foam surround types are not designed for fast transients and will suffer damage if over-driven ( very easy to do in normal tuned cabinets )

I have a single 2240G ( 4 ohm ) that is sitting in my shop - perhaps some kind of trade? I also have a K151-8 that has a cone rip repair if you're into alnico.

As far as a midrange, the JBL 8's ( 2118 / 2119 ) tend to buckle with high power - I would suggest the 2123H or newer 2012H 10" types.

I have made a number of 15 / 10 with that 10 and it screams....:)

sub

johnaec
02-10-2004, 10:04 AM
subwoof - I might consider trading the 2245 for the 2240 - let me dig through the specs for a while. I've had the speaker for a while, and just figured with the low FS and high Xmax, the 2245 would be capable of the strongest 40hz output, which is the most important benchmark to me. I generally rely on a compressor to prevent overdriving if playing at high volumes.

Thanks for the info on the 8" models. 'Anyone got a good 10" they'll let go for cheap? :)

Alex Lancaster
02-10-2004, 12:19 PM
I would use 2 E140īs and forget about xovers.

Alex.

grumpy
02-10-2004, 02:56 PM
I'm with Alex on this, but I don't play a 5-string
and I don't slap/pop much (on bass). :D

Current cab is 2x15 w/Foster horn (usually
turned down). Tried a 5-string w/ it before
buying and that combo sure moves a lot of
air ... different than old Cerwin-Vega 18" cab
I used to have, but in a good way... tighter.

Let us know how your 224x+ system ends up!

-grumpy

GordonW
02-10-2004, 09:31 PM
I really think you'd be much happier with the 2240 or K151, than the 2245, for yet another reason- the 2240 and K151 have lighter cone assembles than the 2245, and will respond to higher midbass frequencies. This will help with the "pop" you need for the bass harmonics. This, combined with say, a 2123 or 2012 10" driver, and maybe a small horn above that (anything along the line of a 2410/2420/2425 or similar stuff on a decent flare should work fine) would probably kick some serious booty, as far as being able to get a serious funk bass slap sound going on...

Of course, the idea of a pair of E140, or even better IMHO, a pair of K140s (larger X-max on the K's, IIRC, they should handle more bass output on the bottom octave) with a horn to provide the upper harmonics, can also kick butt. It's just a matter of having a driver in there, that can "move fast" enough to produce those midbass/midrange harmonics on top of the bass fundamentals...

Regards,
Gordon.

speakerdave
02-10-2004, 10:41 PM
Hey John,

Here's a used JBL 2123H on eBay for a BIN of $80. I've bought an amp from this seller and had a good experience.

Regards,

David

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3703727305&category=23794

johnaec
02-11-2004, 05:30 AM
Hmmm...I seemed to have missed that one...and the BIN is now gone. There are a couple other auctions going for 2123H speakers right now...(please don't outbid me...:rolleyes: )

Thanks!

boputnam
02-11-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by johnaec
... I generally rely on a compressor to prevent overdriving if playing at high volumes. Hey, John...

A bit off topic - but do you have an outboard compressor you use for this (footswitch/pedal)? Or, is it in the "head"? I've a Behringer rack-mounted comp/limiter at the board, but would prefer to do this at the bass. Got a recommendation for me? :confused:

johnaec
02-11-2004, 08:13 AM
I've got a compressor mounted in the equipment rack I drag around for bass. Contains amp, crossover, compressor, and EQ. Someday I may look for a head unit that has these all in one...

BTW, bo - where in northern CA are you? I'm in San Anselmo, about 15 miles north of San Francisco. I just put an offer on a house in Rohnert Park, though, so I hope to be moving soon...

Don C
02-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Welcome to the neighborhood.

boputnam
02-11-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by johnaec
BTW, bo - where in northern CA are you? I'm in San Anselmo, about 15 miles north of San Francisco. I just put an offer on a house in Rohnert Park, though, so I hope to be moving soon... Ha! I commute to marin daily, so we are not so far apart!

And on the compressor, that's what I figured, John - thanks. I think I'm gonna get the bass player to sort this out with a footpedal - afterall, fledgling rockstars are literally awash in cash, right... :rotfl:

Tom Loizeaux
02-11-2004, 05:07 PM
A quality 18 in a tuned cabinet teamed with a pair of 10s (E110s?) should sound very nice. Gauss actually made this conbination years ago as their preimere bass rig. My experience is that a quality, "hi-fi" bass cabinet rig may not be the most sucessful set-up.
I bought an Ampeg SVT 4 Pro a while back and tried the bi-amp feature. I have a number of single 15 and double 15 cabinets fitted with JBL K140s and EV15L & 15Bs and a Gauss. Though the bi-amp mode may have "cleaned up" the sound by dividing the spectrum, I ultimatly settled on the sound of multiple 15s running full range. If I was playing jazz and was going to mic my rig, I suppose the bi-amp 18 & 10s would work great, but when playing rock and playing to fill a large room, I find the full range 15 stacks do a better job.
Just my thoughts.

Tom

johnaec
02-11-2004, 07:11 PM
Tom - I actually have a K140 with aluminum dome and E140 reconed with paper dome, (I don't know what kit - I got it that way), that I may put in a dual 15 cab to match the cab with the 18. Right now I've just got a little 2-2.5 cu.ft. cab I alternate them in - 'pretty useless...

I'm in the process of buying a house right now to get out of the little place I'm in, and one of the things I'm looking forward to is having a garage where I can put a table saw, etc.

BTW - I used to work in Hard Truckers/Ultra Sound's cabinet shop, making equipment for the Grateful Dead, so I'm no stranger to speaker cabs...we also made most the raw cabinets for Meyer Sound Labs at that time. 'Haven't been involved for years, though - 'might say I settled down a bit...;)

mikebake
02-11-2004, 07:58 PM
Yeah, definitely skip using the 2245. The 2241 should be fine, or all the other choices actually sound nice. Fifteens are great; I don;t care as much for the four 10 inch cabs that have been all the rage.
A proper 18 and a 10 would be cool. I still like an 18 for electric bass, but many good 15 inch arrangements are really just as good, it seems.

boputnam
02-11-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by johnaec
BTW - I used to work in Hard Truckers/Ultra Sound's cabinet shop, making equipment for the Grateful Dead, so I'm no stranger to speaker cabs...we also made most the raw cabinets for Meyer Sound Labs at that time. 'Haven't been involved for years, though - 'might say I settled down a bit...;) Well, pard' - I was a beneficiary of your efforts. :thmbsup: Got something near 72 Dead shows to my experience - 1972 earliest (with Pigpen and the New Riders opening, 1994 latest). I've since used Meyer cabinets in both big and intimate FOH applications, both drones and powered. Nice stuff. Widget has some of their drives in his HT, and knows more than I about what Meyers does to get what they deliver. Widget - you there boy...?

johnaec
02-12-2004, 05:42 AM
bo - I worked for them from early '82 until at least '89, left for a while, then later came back for another year or so. I've since gotten into computers, became an AutoCAD consultant, and now work as MIS for a Civil Engineering firm with close to 50 AutoCAD users. Music is still my main love, though...

mike - it seems people here think one of the other 18's would be a better choice than the 2245. The problem is, I already own the 2245. But what confuses me is that all the JBL specs and charts seem to show the the 2245 is capable of putting out the greatest output at 40hz, which in my experience, is the hardest to reproduce with bass guitar, (low E). That's why I went with the 2245 in the first place - at the time, none of their 18s were rated to handle over 300 watts continuous, so I realize the equation may have now changed if you include the newer models...I do plan on including a mid-bass driver for harmonic transients, etc. BTW - I once did play a gig using a four 10" cabinet someone else had. I don't know what drivers it had or how it was ported, but frankly, I was really impressed - it actually had a real solid low end...

johnaec
02-12-2004, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
Widget has some of their drives in his HT, and knows more than I about what Meyers does to get what they deliver. Widget - you there boy...? The guy I replaced at Hard Truckers went by the handle "Wizard" - could that have evolved into "Widget"?

By the time I was with them, the Dead had moved away from the JBL "wall of sound" and were using an all Meyer PA. Phil Lesh had also switched to using two Meyer 650R cabs for bass, each of which have two 18" drivers. Jerry was JBL to the end, though - AFAIK the last cabinet he used had three K120s - 'built it myself...

I still have some empty prototype cabinets I built for Meyer - I can't remember the model, but they're the little ones that held two 6" (?) drivers and a Motorola piezo. I mistakenly offset the cutout for the connector panel by an inch, so they were not to spec. Someday I want to fill them just to see what they'll do. 'Any good 6", (I think), drivers you can recommend, (for PA fill)? I've got four of these empty cabinets.

John

4313B
02-12-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by johnaec
The problem is, I already own the 2245.I guess if you have to use the 2245H for electric bass then put it in a 6.0 cubic foot box tuned to 30 Hz. You're not the first person who wanted to use a VLF transducer for their bass rig...

A former coworker of mine went through every Pro JBL bass driver available at the time for his electric bass and settled on a ... drumroll... 2235H! :rolleyes: He insisted that I build him what I thought would be the best volume and tuning for it; So with trembling hands and a heart full of fear :p I built him a 4.0 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 30 Hz and he was estatic with the end result. I figured he'd blow it to hell in short order :yes: and that was fifteen years ago! :p He simply wanted that particular kind of sound, transient response be damned, and it sure filled his types of venues with warm ubiquitous bass. It really sounded remarkably good. I was quite surprised because it simply wasn't :no: what I would have spec'd for the job at all.

mikebake
02-12-2004, 07:41 AM
I never bothered to find out if the basket for the 2245 is shared by, say , the E series 18, (I suppose probably not) but for the reasons others have given, it is still not the right driver for live electric bass application. Not that you can't get the thing to function, but it is not the right application. I think it would tend to not hold up as well (i.e. foam surround vs. pleated, etc.) and the other candidates would sound better. Still...................since you 've got it and you want to give it a try, why not? Worse case you recone it or sell and buy a different driver.
And yes, I have heard 4x10 cabinets alot, but even though they could apparently go low, subjectively at least I liked the difference that an 18 has. Not many seem to use them anymore!
How about a 36x10?? No shit! File size is too big, I'll see if Don McR. can post the photo for me....................
MBB

Tom Loizeaux
02-12-2004, 11:52 AM
If one were committed to using a VLF 18 for electric bass low end (assuming other drivers would be used for the mids and top), wouldn't the 2241 be a good choice in an 8 cu.ft. tuned cabinet tuned to maybe 38Hz or so?
Thanks,

Tom

mikebake
02-12-2004, 12:11 PM
I would think so, or again, an E145??

Don McRitchie
02-12-2004, 12:16 PM
Here is the photo MBB wanted to post:

subwoof
02-12-2004, 12:25 PM
I built (4) E145 / 2123 boxes for a guys bass rig - sounded killer but they were DAMN heavy....and the E145 replacement cone kit is pricey.

The E155, 2240 and 2245 all share the same basket so the parts can be swapped around. The E155 is a good stand-alone 18.

I don't play - I just listen. I kinda liked greg lakes rig ( ELP ) with (4) 4520....THAT would fill a stage....:)

The 2241 would be my first choice due to the weight. Add a 10 above it and you're done.

I did use a 2235H's for a guy's keyboard rig once. It sounded really nice BUT in live applications sometimes the AC power sags with heavy draw and the super low ( 1-8 HZ ) output that some amplifiers put out when their power supplys become exhausted would cause the foam cones to unload and flop around.

shake,rattle +roll becomes surge,slamback + rip

sub

4313B
02-12-2004, 12:44 PM
subwoof is right, once you blow the 2245H cone out onto the floor you can get it reconed as an E155 :yes:

johnaec
02-12-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by subwoof
...sometimes the AC power sags with heavy draw and the super low ( 1-8 HZ ) output that some amplifiers put out when their power supplys become exhausted would cause the foam cones to unload and flop around.

shake,rattle +roll becomes surge,slamback + ripI also have a subsonic filter just for this...though mainly for the ~1hz I get slapping the strings. The Crest P3500 has two complete power supplies, one for each channel - separate transformers, caps, etc.

I'll probably go ahead with the 2245H + 10", since it's the easiest for now. I haven't blown the 2245 in a larger cabinet, (~7.5 cu.ft. but too big to put in my car - it's also got a K120 for mid-bass right now). I just need a smaller cabinet to carry around, and the 12" takes up too much room when added to the bass space... I'll probably build a dual 15 after that for comparison. With so much more cone area, it'll likely outperform the 18/10 combo.

John

mikebake
02-12-2004, 03:55 PM
Spinal Tap has, of course, ordered the above pictured Ampeg cabinet! Cool...

subwoof
02-12-2004, 04:03 PM
but i dunno mate - does it like, go to 11?

mikebake
02-12-2004, 05:16 PM
HA! But like, SERIOUSLY, they DID order one!!

subwoof
02-12-2004, 06:54 PM
but if it ever fell on their drummer - the curse would continue...