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Don McRitchie
06-16-2007, 08:58 PM
The following is notification of a change in signature permissions and a guide for signature usage. Up until now, I have never changed the default settings for signatures which allow for an unlimited number of lines and up to 500 characters (the size of a paragraph). Some are pushing the latter limit which can make threads difficult to read, particularly when they show up multiple times in the same thread. Quite frankly, it quickly becomes old to see the same text over and over again in the same thread no matter how witty the content.

In summary, there are two issues:


Long disruptive signatures;
Constant repetition within threads.


To deal with the first, I am changing the permissions to allow no more than two lines of text and no more than 125 characters for new signatures. If your existing signature exceeds this, please change it to meet the new rules or it will be deleted. To deal with the second, I would ask that you only use your signature once per thread, and certainly not more than once per thread page. I don't intend to police the latter rigorously, but repeated non conformance to this guideline will result in more restrictive changes.

boputnam
06-17-2007, 12:59 AM
I am changing the permissions to allow no more than two lines of text and no more than 125 characters for new signatures. ... I would (also) ask that you only use your signature once per thread, and certainly not more than once per thread page.Thanks. Great idea...

spkrman57
06-17-2007, 09:55 AM
Will save bandwidth and read/scan time for us.

Regards, Ron

boputnam
06-18-2007, 09:47 AM
To deal with the second, I would ask that you only use your signature once per thread, and certainly not more than once per thread page. Hi, Don...

This latter request has resulted in at-least a few pm's to me.

Is there a Signatures option that can be selected to enable this? I admit cannot find it. Otherwise, this request would seem to require we go into our UserCP area and remove our Signature on follow-ups...

Don McRitchie
06-18-2007, 10:28 AM
There is no way to set this up automatically that I know of. However, there is a check box just below the editing window used to compose new posts called "show your signature". Just uncheck it for follow up posts. I have been personally following this practice for a number of years (although I occaisionally forget). That's why I don't intend to make an issue of it unless it is repeatedly flaunted.

As an elaboration, the basic recommendation is one signature per thread. However, I consider it perfectly acceptable to use your signature more than once if you get into multipage threads that span long periods of time. Therefore, the more accurate recommendation would be to have no more than one signature per thread page.

Don

boputnam
06-18-2007, 11:31 AM
There is no way to set this up automatically that I know of. However, there is a check box just below the editing window used to compose new posts called "show your signature". Just uncheck it for follow up posts. Ah... Glad I asked - never noticed that before. Also, I see why - it is just below the main window display (on my screen). I'll use it going forward.

Also, been too focused on spelling... :dont-know

Titanium Dome
06-18-2007, 02:37 PM
Bo has his signature three times on one page in this thread... :bash:

boputnam
06-18-2007, 03:06 PM
Bo has his signature three times on one page in this thread... :bash::no: Not since I learned it... Count again!

Titanium Dome
06-18-2007, 04:09 PM
I'm glad I took a screen shot of it before you changed it. ;)

I think I might have used a signature at one time, but discontinued it long ago. Now I'm glad I did. I'd hate to have to monitor one more aspect of my posting behavior.

louped garouv
06-18-2007, 05:06 PM
can't an individual user set an option to display or not display other members' signatures?

Zilch
06-18-2007, 07:11 PM
can't an individual user set an option to display or not display other members' signatures?Yes, of course. It's in "Edit options" in User CP. You can disable signatures, avatars, and/or images, but not selectively.

Look, folks, if my signature was the problem, someone should simply have said so. And if that's the case, there's no reason to go through this. I don't care if I have a sig or not, and given that I'm now aware it's an issue, I'll certainly be more restrained about that in the future.... :yes:

Don McRitchie
06-18-2007, 07:57 PM
Nowhere did I ask anyone to go back and edit posts and no one is restricting the subject matter of signatures. Complying is a simple matter of clicking an option box on the same page where you compose the post. I actually encourage people to change their signatures regularly like your music recommendation example. This can still easily be done within 125 characters.

The problem occurs when two or three people get into a back and forth discussion and you see the same signature sentences a half dozen times on the same page. In some cases, the signatures are longer than the posts. It is disruptive.

johnaec
06-18-2007, 07:59 PM
And how about using the Preview Post button also, or at least editing defective posts after posting.

John

Don McRitchie
06-18-2007, 08:15 PM
How do I make the "BBC code" visible so I can simplify that when I downsize my sig ...?

I tried to drop my sig to a single line of text but its complaining that one line is too long and it must be "under 125 characters including BBC code" - I know it could not be over 125 characters of text, the single line version was probably under 75 chars.

The 125 character restriction applies to visible text only. You are allowed up 175 characters including BB code. If this is restrictive, I can expand it. However, I'm curious why you would need more than 50 characters of formating code. You can see the BB code by switching to the standard editor in your user CP.

hjames
06-18-2007, 08:17 PM
Actually, I found it - in the right hand side of the edit area for your sig is the letter A and /a - it means code editting. The dumb default code may have a tone of junk load and unload - if you can follow html code you can clean it up but you may be on your own otherwise ...
Mine had a some colors turned on and off with no text between the tags, had a URL link and end code that didn't have text linked to it but were apparently still there from something I did a few months back. That made a lot of code that wasn't in use but still counted.
Basically, its like MS FrontPage - the default coding is pretty stupid.

I did get mine reduced - what shows now seems to be acceptable ...

But - a brief thought - I've been coding HTML and javascript for over 10 years - it may not be so intuitive for novices ...


Don,
Sorry, :o: I see the ability to remove signature now, on a post a reply, the only way I figured it out b4 was to edit. Also like Heather has stated with BBC code issue. I have tried to add more to my sig. and it keeps rejecting it saying it to big including the BBC code.


Jeff
J/S-S1A :D

Donald
06-18-2007, 08:53 PM
Don,

Since the system software knows the last message one has viewed in a thread, it apparently has some smarts. Why not ask the software authors for a system mod to accept a signature in a users first post to a thread and silently reject it on further posts? It could be an option set by the admin.

hjames
06-19-2007, 03:24 AM
Tried Heathers approach, and in the BBC code the bold type, colors, and what not () [] take up too much room. My single line has me at the limit with font additions.

As stated above. (NO ROOM FOR SYSTEMS) :(


Jeff
J/S-S1A :(

Drop to a single font, limit the number of COLORs you are using and put a single "B" at the beginning (and the matching "/B" at the end and that may help ... Due to the Automated CODING function of the forum formatter, my original Default code had a number of places turning Bold on and off, when actually I just wanted the whole line bold.

I can give folks some tips on trimming their sigs, if they want the help ...

louped garouv
06-19-2007, 10:33 AM
:idea:

or just drop it all together....

louped garouv
06-19-2007, 10:50 AM
there's one sig with a graphic of a conductor waving his wand that is really getting old , multiple times in a thread,,,,, kill it.


The Altec Maestro?

hjames
06-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Well - we seem to be the only ones trying to uphold the request to trim sigs anyway -
seems the others are gonna do what they want to do no matter what anyone here says ...

If you REALLY want to speed the forums up, dump all graphics and code anyway -
No one needs Avatars or colored sigs ... or ANY sigs - for some folks its just a brag list of gear anyway ...

louped garouv
06-19-2007, 11:11 AM
Well seeing how this is shaking out I vote we ban them altogether ...
Rob:)

I'm a member at several forums that don't have sigs or avatars enabled....

it works & people still hang out there....

every once in awhile, people will complain about it, but it never changes.....

:)

edgewound
06-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Let's just go back to DOS....or Apple II

That way....all the fun of using a computer will go away and so will all the problems that plague humanity through the use of the internet.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Let's just go back to DOS....or Apple II

That way....all the fun of using a computer will go away and so will all the problems that plague humanity through the use of the internet.The truth comes out in jest! It really does. If you stop and think about it, prior to the internet explosion, people were smarter and had to use their heads to figure things out. Now all we do is look it up online, everybody googles everything!

What the hell would we do today if the CNC computerized sawmills shut down? Anyone remember how to use an old fashioned ruler and carpenters pencil?

edgewound
06-19-2007, 12:34 PM
The truth comes out in jest! It really does. If you stop and think about it, prior to the internet explosion, people were smarter and had to use their heads to figure things out. Now all we do is look it up online, everybody googles everything!

What the hell would we do today if the CNC computerized sawmills shut down? Anyone remember how to use an old fashioned ruler and carpenters pencil?


I think we're all just as stupid as we always were...just in different ways. The internet is just the perfect media for exposing it.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 12:43 PM
I think we're all just as stupid as we always were...just in different ways. The internet is just the perfect media for exposing it.LOL, maybe! :applaud:

sourceoneaudio
06-19-2007, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott fitlin http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=174083#post174083)

"I just dont understand grown adults behaving like 2nd graders in forum conversation, and I never will understand this type of behavior, either."

Well none of this would be up for discussion, or debate if two people in particular (no names mentioned) would get along, and not voice there opinions and or attitudes in their signature. So yes it has resulted in this restriction action, and we all have to suffer. And as stated above, thanx for acting like 2nd graders.

4313B
06-19-2007, 12:56 PM
Speculation:
Well none of this would be up for discussion, or debate if two people in particular (no names mentioned) would get along, and not voice there opinions and or attitudes in their signature. So yes it has resulted in this restriction action, and we all have to suffer. And as stated above, thanx for acting like 2nd graders.Portion of original post:
In summary, there are two issues:

Long disruptive signatures;
Constant repetition within threads.To deal with the first, I am changing the permissions to allow no more than two lines of text and no more than 125 characters for new signatures. If your existing signature exceeds this, please change it to meet the new rules or it will be deleted. To deal with the second, I would ask that you only use your signature once per thread, and certainly not more than once per thread page.Along with the link to the post in its entirety:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=173640

Titanium Dome
06-19-2007, 01:36 PM
I guess I missed some action earlier.:thnkfast:

Don's stated purpose is clear and, though cumbersome in implementation, easy to follow.

As for the ensuing discussion, my hope is that "let's ban it" does not become the outcome to every solution that's looking for a problem.

Everyone just ease up, and things will be okay.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 01:51 PM
And in response to this:
No comment. We've talked about this ad nauseum. Consider the source, realize the limitations and try to move on I guess.Yes, 100% agree. Which is why I deleted my post, and other than this one particular comment, am refraining from further posting in this thread.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 02:16 PM
Actually, now that you mention it, since Don is back, things are happening. GOOD things, the forum seems to be being moved and motivated in a positive direction. At least this is what I see and feel since he is back, AND I like it, too!

:bouncy:

kingjames
06-19-2007, 02:58 PM
I have noticed recently that there is alot of banning going on here. Off topic, now Avatar's and signatures,what's next?

I also have noticed that most of this banning has only one cause,(all these issues are disruptive according to some).

When I read a post I am tuned to the content in the post and a signature only gets in the way the first time I read it and after that it doesn't concern me because I already read it. It's like chewing bubblegum and rubbing you're stomach at the same time. I guess it's just too difficult for some.

I like my Avatar as it is a pleasure to look at my grandchildren when I post as it alleviate's some of the stuff that goes on here.

You are making this forum too restrictive and I think future contributions will start to reflect this.

This place survives on donations from people like me who haven't the knowledge to discuss (diy) projects. I also feel that donations are a give back to the forum for allowing people like me to come here once and a while to meet other people with the same interest's.Understand that I don't need to meet people here as I do have a life beyond this forum but it is a nice change from everything else.

I don't want to start a war here but like I said before a forum should be informative,self supporting, fun,and most of all a place you really want to be and not necessarily in that order.

Many times I have read that other forums do things one way and they don't have issue's. I guess this is fine if you want to be a follower all you're life.I always thought that this forum in particular was a leader in the field.

Too many rules will start to yield too few donations.It is becoming a matter of principal anymore. My reflection in this post is not directed towards any one individual and as a peon I must submit to the higher rule as I know I am only here because they allow it.

I do give my thanks for being here and being a part of this community but now with all these rules you are making it impossible to want to be here.

I must also agree with Source that some signatures were down right provocative in their wording and it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who was on the other end of them.

Too few here are held accountable for their actions.The end result being that everyone suffer's.

In the end I will submit like I always do, I have removed my short signature 10 minutes after Don posted his restrictions. I will also remove my Avatar within minutes the moment they are banned and I will remove myself within minutes should you think that I need to be banned.

edgewound
06-19-2007, 04:53 PM
Why is it when the site's Owner/Administrator makes a suggestion to streamline the operation of threads and conserve resources, there seems to be a backlash against his "heavy-handed" tactics. Why all the complaining? What's the big deal? Maybe there's problems caused by the repetitive nature mentioned, and we don't really need a dissertation as to what the problems are....do we?

If you feel the need to put a novel's worth of philosophy attached in every post and how big and bitchin your system is, it's kind of like watching someone wave their arms for attention whenever they talk...it get's a little old and annoying. List it in your profile where anyone can take a look if they care too.

I happen to like the Avatar's. It shows some personality, identity, sense of humor, creativity, sentimentality, etc....it adds a touch of humanness to the site and it's members.

More moderation with the tools availed to you will result in less moderating needed by the moderators.

jim campbell
06-19-2007, 05:00 PM
I guess I missed some action earlier.:thnkfast:

Don's stated purpose is clear and, though cumbersome in implementation, easy to follow.

As for the ensuing discussion, my hope is that "let's ban it" does not become the outcome to every solution that's looking for a problem.
it seems that's the way were headed..........

jim campbell
06-19-2007, 05:17 PM
hey edgewound...........perhaps you should stop calling the kettle black......king james has voiced his opinion and i for one agree with him.............if you are going to take him to task for the length of his posts then why do you bore us with your wedding album...........the same guys who were so happy to lose the off topic section seem to have no problem churning up the forum with all kinds of off topic stuff whenever and wherever they want but the rest of us have to endure lectures for the same thing from those very people...........or is this just a return to high school where the popular kids get to do as they please because theyre just so darn cute

edgewound
06-19-2007, 05:28 PM
hey edgewound...........perhaps you should stop calling the kettle black......king james has voiced his opinion and i for one agree with him.............if you are going to take him to task for the length of his posts then why do you bore us with your wedding album...........the same guys who were so happy to lose the off topic section seem to have no problem churning up the forum with all kinds of off topic stuff whenever and wherever they want but the rest of us have to endure lectures for the same thing from those very people...........or is this just a return to high school where the popular kids get to do as they please because theyre just so darn cute

Hey Jim...

If the forum would like to see my wedding announcement and pics deleted, so be it....take 'em down. I won't raise a complaint.

Apparently, you were interested enough to look at my wedding pics. Why didn't you just ignore it?

Sorry if I offended you by defending the sites' owner.

Moderators:

If you find my wedding pics offensive and a waste of bandwidth....Just delete the whole thread to make jimcampbell happy.

BTW...my post wasn't aimed at kingjames in particular. My post is to convey that the forum is provided for us guests. You shouldn't complain about someone's home decor....just don't go to their house anymore if you don't like it.

jim campbell
06-19-2007, 05:45 PM
i dont.......what i find offensive is the notion that some guys on the forum seem to think that only the subjects that matter to them are relevent and that everyone else's opinion is somehow less than so.take a look around and you see over and over the same guys that wanted to dump the ot section going off on tangents then chastizing others for the same thing.if its bandwith issue then the powers that be can say so and have done with it.but ever since the debate over the ot section we have seen the heavy hand of ban this and that appear often enough for some including myself to notice.

normally i would not be inclined to mention your wedding pix because i think i am grown up enough to understand even if they were of no interest to some that lots of others on the forum would like to see them........but its a two way street.

kingjames
06-19-2007, 05:46 PM
I happen to like the Avatar's. It shows some personality, identity, sense of humor, creativity, sentimentality, etc....it adds a touch of humanness to the site and it's members.



I think these same words can apply to a signature. If you read my post again,you will see that I like my Avatar as well. I don't flaunt what I own and actually have a very small system.

The humanness as you call it is slowly being removed from this forum.The human element as I recall was flat out rejected by a very senior member here.My humanness has always told me to discuss things that I don't agree with.My humanness has also told me to respect what people say even if I don't agree with what they're saying. How soon we forget other threads.Don't nick pick on my post as you're defintion of what I wrote is totally wrong

I have never seen a place where people read something then complain that it was there to read.

Let's try you're first solution going back to Dos, but then there would be complaints about people not knowing what executable file to open.

Complaints are a normal way of working things out,it is an avenue to work toward's better solutions and isin't that what everyone wants?

How else do idea's come about, isin't it by discussion, isin't it by disagreements,etc;.

You can not change what a person is or the way they think and they shouldn't be subjected to ridicule when they question a particular action. After all this is their humanness that you talk about.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 06:00 PM
I like my avatar, and I have a simple signature, and re-reading Dons post tells me you can still have yours too. But, there are size limits now. Thats all.

And you know what? I back Don up on this, signatures should not be a full posts worth of characters long. Its should be exactly what the word signature means, a signature, not a biography of your life!

Umm, about Edgewounds wedding pics. I think they should stay. This is wonderful stuff that really does belong in Forum Announcements.

ITS WHEN THREADS GET NASTY AND CONFONTATIONAL THAT IT IS DETERMINED THEY DONT BELONG! Or even when people use their signatures to send out mesages to other members in code, ya know?

By the way, KingJames, I love your avatar with your grandchildren, it SHOULD stay!

But, how would you feel about someone using a porn pic as their avatar?

Different things get handled and treated differently!

kingjames
06-19-2007, 06:04 PM
But, how would you feel about someone using a porn pic as their avatar?
If it included Pam Anderson you would have no complaint from me,however you're point is well taken and thanks.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 06:07 PM
If it included Pam Anderson you would have no complaint from me,however you're point is well taken and thanks.Agreed some are more open to more than others, however, as much as I or yourself may not mind a pic of Pam Anderson, we must keep somewhat of a conduct code, because this is a public forum.

You really would'nt want your grandkids, or anyone elses to happen across things not really suitable for them? As well as the sites owner setting the forums manner of conduct.

:)

jim campbell
06-19-2007, 06:14 PM
Umm, about Edgewounds wedding pics. I think they should stay. This is wonderful stuff that really does belong in Forum Announcements.



Different things get handled and treated differently!...........as it should be.............where i part company is when the same stuff by different folks is treated differently.like i said i have no problem with the pix but if guys are gonna get called for voicing an opinion,and a valid one at that then others are gonna get called for their stuff.we just had this debate culminating with the loss of the ot section........so now if its gonna be okay for some to wander then its gotta be okay for the rest of us.just because a post is of no interest to one does not mean its irrelevent to all. it seems that if you have an early enough date on your avatar the rules are different

kingjames
06-19-2007, 06:18 PM
Scotty, I would never question Don's authority to do with his forum what he wants to do with it.This is a wonderful place he's created for everyone.

The meaning of my post was to maybe include some of us members on ways to make things happen in a better way and not use the word ban to automatically solve all problems.

I take the heat for anything that I have caused and wish some members would do the same,that's all.

scott fitlin
06-19-2007, 06:22 PM
I hear you guys. I dont think the " Just ban It " is really whats going on or happening. Or even the complete answer to everything.

I do think that in trying to keep some threads civil, and the same things happening time after time, frustration sets in.

Sometimes limits have to be imposed.

edgewound
06-19-2007, 06:48 PM
...I will also remove my Avatar within minutes the moment they are banned and I will remove myself within minutes should you think that I need to be banned.

Kingjames....I love you, man...

Jim Campbell....same to you....

My impression of your posts and opinions was that THE MAN is spoiling your party...again. It just seemed alarmist, is all.

This site is terrific....full of lots of great info, and great people including you guys.

I don't claim to be one of the "popular" kids... I always despised that kind of politics and I still do.

My opinion is just as valid as yours is....and I stated it. My intention was never to attack anyone's opinion....I apologize if it came off that way.

kingjames
06-19-2007, 07:09 PM
Now that's the Edgewound I have known. I know I'm the liberal here and I think my fault lies in what I want to say maybe with the wrong words is all. I want this to be a fun place to come to and shoot the shit so the speak.

No offense taken Edgewound and like I said in you're wedding post, I still hope you and you're pretty magnet3 have a most joyous life together. Jim

Robh3606
06-19-2007, 07:26 PM
Why is the sky always falling???

My post was directed at a few who know who they are, why I did it, and that is all it applies too. It was quoted in support of the point I was trying to make with an admitedly terse post on my part, again to make a point. When I saw it had been read I deleted it. That's all there is. There are no plans to change anything other than what Don posted.

You guys are so quick to take things to extremes.

Rob:)

4313B
06-19-2007, 10:23 PM
Evidently Don should have made it a sticky and locked the thread.

Ian Mackenzie
06-20-2007, 03:47 AM
No doubt there was an event that made it necessary for Don to step in.

I'd like to see Don pen more posts to do with the actual Lansing Heritage.

Aside from recent events they are sparse, very few and far between.

This is not a criticism, just and observation.

hjames
06-20-2007, 06:29 AM
Is there a way to post a small paragraph or two in our profile of what gear we have or whatever folks want to say there, and then just hyperlink to that from a simple signature? That would help the folks who want to list gear avoid listing it in each and every post, yet it would still be available for those who want to look and read it.

I looked at my Profile, but was more a list of hobbies and such than what I'm speaking of ...

I know there is a way to link to a personal Homepage in the left column near the Avatar, but the few I've looked up just use that to link to their Ebay page and not a true personal site ...

4313B
06-20-2007, 06:50 AM
I'd like to see Don pen more posts to do with the actual Lansing Heritage.

Aside from recent events they are sparse, very few and far between.I agree completely and have said as much in PM's and phone conversations.

I know there is a way to link to a personal Homepage in the left column near the Avatar, but the few I've looked up just use that to link to their Ebay page and not a true personal site ...Yes, some people really need to get their own personal websites to link to. Those ebay pages don't cut it.

JBLnsince1959
06-20-2007, 06:54 AM
No doubt there was an event that made it necessary for Don to step in.

.

I would agree...I've never known Don to "jump the gun" or force his personal ideas on anything here. Dons' approach to situations has always been logical, well thought out and for a purpose( even when he chastised me )...... If he sets some limits on the Sigs then I'm sure there's a reason that has to do with the forums functioning...From what I understand he's redoing a lot with this site ......

my 2 cents

Ian Mackenzie
06-20-2007, 06:59 AM
I think it would be for the best in so many ways......

Even a little to start with, then slowly.

Don's post about the Lansing Heritage of the 4311/L100 was one of the most memorable.

Ian:)

jim campbell
06-20-2007, 09:36 AM
so weve dumped off topic,2000 or no non or infrequent posters,now were going after signatures.................i wish someone would just come out and say in plain terms what the problem is,propose the remedies,let the members have their say and carry on...........so far all we seem to be doing is walking on egg shells waiting for someone to cross some imaginary line that few know the location of, then pounce..............jeezus ...................

4313B
06-20-2007, 09:50 AM
Hello Jim,

The off-topic issue is actually still in discussion with currently more against than for. Feel free to start your own public poll with respect to it. I'm personally technically against it because I think it's out of scope and it seems to create more tension and drama than anything else, besides, it's Googled for the whole world to see and that has a whole bunch of ramifications. But I could be for it under the right circumstances, with the right set of rules. For example, can our kids visit this website? Can our spouses? Can our employees and employers? Maybe a private off-topic away from non-members and Google is in order? I personally have no problems with that idea but Don would have to ruminate on the potential pitfalls and say yes or no.

The non-posters was an effort to clear out all the spammers past, present and future (accounts created beforehand for future use). I believe there was also another reason but I can't remember right now since it isn't really an issue.

The signatures issue is exactly as Don posted in the thread starter post.

The only other issue that I can remember right now is the signal to noise ratio which includes blogging, spamming and generally overgrazing the commons, and that is being looked at.

Mr. Widget
06-20-2007, 10:45 AM
Hello Jim,

The off-topic issue is actually still in discussion with currently more against than for. That is, a handful of us along with Don, Rob, and myself have been privately weighing in on the positives and negatives of having an Off Topic area.


so weve dumped off topic,2000 or no non or infrequent posters...
I don't understand your egg shell comment, but as for eliminating Zero Posters that was not done to penalize anyone. No infrequent posters were dropped... only those who had never posted. Any member who was deleted due to the zero poster cleanse was allow to re-register if they wanted to.


Widget

jim campbell
06-20-2007, 10:53 AM
well there is no shortage of off color words in posts past,so i guess given that,we all must police our own computers from underage eyes if that is our choice........i just feel that if two or more members of this forum sat down for a brew somewhere the topics of conversation would stray from lansing related subjects..........and i think that the forum would not be lessened if it reflected that........ the forums that dont interest me i just ignore.........like diy...........i am just not doing that kind of thing any more but i would not wish it gone as there are lots of guys here who value it.sure there have been dust ups and such but thats kind of natural.............if they get out of hand the moderators step in and.........well nobody got shot..........i would rather see the odd spat,or ignore the odd thread, than have to walk on egg shells in some kind of pc nightmare,afraid to say anything lest it be lambasted for being too wordy or off topic..........

i dont know if its practical or not but i wonder if software allows for an optional self destruct of posts after a time.........the tech guys could be spared endless scouring of ot posts to find relevent info.......and i think that most would not care if posts were deleted after they are no longer topical.........

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 10:57 AM
so weve dumped off topic,2000 or no non or infrequent posters,now were going after signatures.................i wish someone would just come out and say in plain terms what the problem is,propose the remedies,let the members have their say and carry on...........so far all we seem to be doing is walking on egg shells waiting for someone to cross some imaginary line that few know the location of, then pounce..............jeezus ...................

What exactly are you worried about?? Crossing an imaginary line?? What line would that be?? Are you personally doing anything that would call for a Moderators attention?? If not what are you worried about.

I did the zero post member trimming. The reason was to shed the nearly 5000 dead memberships a full 75% of which were spam accounts. When Don came back we discussed the issue's we were having with spam and changed the Registration process and that has worked very well.

Dons post on the Signatures is self explanatory if you don't read into it. Just take it at face value.

Now something you all should know.

One of the reasons Off Topic was closed was from the snipping that carried over into the Main Forums. Some of that is still going on. I have been sending PM's to people to stop either Trolling, Baiting, Bickering, Taunting and just plain derogatory posting I have been seeing in Main Forums. This includes messages in Signatures and in the reason for deleting a post field as well. If these activities continue the posters will be suspened for an appropriate period of time determined by the Moderators. In all cases you will be warned before you are suspended and all who have recieved them already are on notice.

I really do not what to do this but I have sent several PM's and I still see it happening. If you ignore PM's from the Administrators or Moderators about this type of behavior you are leaving us no choice. If you do get a PM about this please have the courtesy to respond. If you do not respond and find yourself suspended you will have to wait till the end of the suspension if you feel it was not justfied.

It all boils down to respect for your fellow members. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 11:17 AM
well there is no shortage of off color words in posts past,so i guess given that,we all must police our own computers from underage eyes if that is our choice........i just feel that if two or more members of this forum sat down for a brew somewhere Yes, Jim I agree, and there are forums where almost anything goes, word and picturewise! But this forum is not like that, we keep a more, " ANYBODY " can come read whats in here type of manner.

Im a member of a nightclub forum called Rythmism.com, was the old Naughtybooth.com, mostly club going kids in their 20,s and that forum runs pretty WIDE OPEN. Pretty much this was the NYC Twilo and SoundFactory sub culture board, and clubs and events, and anything sexual you can think of. We even have a carnal section, and its gets carnal in there. But, you would have to really read this forum and see some of the stuff these people talk about, and post pics of to see how really WILD it can get. Trust me, you will see and read things I KNOW you would'nt want your children to! Believe that! EVERYTHING from A to Z, and soup to nutz!

My point is that without a conduct code, if the forum is allowed to run totally wide open, it will get crazy in here. I know you've seen some of the outbreaks and forumfights in here, we dont consider that really appropriate.

:)

kingjames
06-20-2007, 12:11 PM
Scottyj, I don't think any of this stuff that you mention happens here nor would it.

I believe the biggest concern here is that people who are doing the flaming and such should be the ones held accountable.It is not fair to penalize all for the actions of a few.

I also think most of the animosity that was created in the OT area was from inadequate reading or down right wrong assumptions (reading something that wasn't said).

I think we are all guilty of this as sometimes we put the wrong words in a response. I have done this a few times and deleted my post only to have someone read it before I deleted and quote it in their response.Not their fault though,as they posted a minute or so before I deleted it.Sarcastic or witty responses are the problem I think,though these responses might be cute they are not helpful.

One thing that I have noticed in this thread is that all response's are minus the usual sarcasim and wittyness that usually send's a thread into MKZ (moderator kill zone)


Yes, Jim I agree, and there are forums where almost anything goes, word and picturewise! But this forum is not like that, we keep a more, " ANYBODY " can come read whats in here type of manner.

Im a member of a nightclub forum called Rythmism.com, was the old Naughtybooth.com, mostly club going kids in their 20,s and that forum runs pretty WIDE OPEN. Pretty much this was the NYC Twilo and SoundFactory sub culture board, and clubs and events, and anything sexual you can think of. We even have a carnal section, and its gets carnal in there. But, you would have to really read this forum and see some of the stuff these people talk about, and post pics of to see how really WILD it can get. Trust me, you will see and read things I KNOW you would'nt want your children to! Believe that! EVERYTHING from A to Z, and soup to nutz!

My point is that without a conduct code, if the forum is allowed to run totally wide open, it will get crazy in here. I know you've seen some of the outbreaks and forumfights in here, we dont consider that really appropriate.

:)

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 12:21 PM
Yes, KJ, but what I'm trying to say is that things left unchecked seem to escalate to unbelievably high levels of fire.

I've watched topics go off topic, and turn to war, ive watched topics with some mature content piss some members off, Ive watched complete breakdowns on some peoples parts at times. AND, no matter how many times it has been said to calm things down to a dull roar, it continues, and as Rob said, usually the same people all over again, sometimes new people get drawn into the flames too! About what I said in the post you quoted? YES that type of stuff DOES happen, and it has in here, then, it was moderated because of complaints from one person or another. Bar room talk will occur if we let it. NOT everyone was OK with it! For the record, I was, but, as a moderator, I have to respect everyones wishes and feelings, not just my own.

OTOH, you still have the same things we have always had, just with some limits imposed on them, thats all. So we cant have full page sized avatars or signatures!

Do you have any suggestions to offer? We DO listen, and we DO take into account what you guys are saying. But, what to do when it isnt working? And the same BS keeps going on and on and on......................

kingjames
06-20-2007, 12:42 PM
Scotty, I was one who used to complain when a thread was closed because it got too heated. I complained because I considered it censorship but have since changed my attitude towards that end. I now realize that closing the threads was the proper thing to do because there has to be some sense of civility in these posts.

Not to bring up old topics but the OT section was a section for us who are unable to or don't wish to partcipate in the diy area's.Somehow we must interject other topics into our discussions because this is only natural and human. A happy member will be a contributing member but if you take away the area he is only capable of participating in then you will lose that member.

I know there is no easy fix and you can't please everyone but just understand I was happy enough about this forum at one time to contribute to it freely as it was a class place indeed. I still believe this.

Don C
06-20-2007, 12:43 PM
Evidently Don should have made it a sticky and locked the thread.
You can say that again.

edgewound
06-20-2007, 01:13 PM
I'll add another dimension to the thought process here, then I'm done with this. This is still in the "feedback" section so it must be ok to post this here, right?

If one feels a "lecture" coming on...stop reading here.

It's been said that there are changes coming to this site. It'll be interesting to see it unfold. Could it be morphing into a paid ad site like AudioKarma.com? Many members here are members there also...but keep in mind that it is a very broad-subject site...This place is called "Lansing". Now...one could surmise that Lansing pretty much spawned an entire audio industry by his innovations, but that stretches the theory awfully thin....and with that the resources.

AK has sections for everyone...yes... everyone. Almost anything goes as long as it's suitable for the entire family...think PG-13 rating... and any conversations that get out of line are quickly extinguished. It ain't a total free-for-all...and it shouldn't be. Public places should never be a free-for-all. That why we have police dept's...like'em or not.

There is talk of members here not caring for sections like DIY, and rather like hanging out in an "off topic" section to be able to discuss whatever comes up at any given moment.

Running this place has got to be contolled to keep the costs in line. If it keeps broadening you can count on additional sources of revenue being added by necessity....nothing is free...at least not for too long.

Have you ever been to an open house party thrown by teenagers when the parents are away? The place gets trashed...destroyed....because many people don't care about messing up someone else's house...because it's not their's ...and might be envious of what someone else has and they don't.

I would think most...no...all people here would expect guests in their home to be respectful of their host. This is Don's house and the moderators can be considered the "doormen".

If you aren't...then you don't deserve respect in return and should go elsewhere.

My lecture has ended;).

jim campbell
06-20-2007, 01:23 PM
Yes, Jim I agree, and there are forums where almost anything goes, word and picturewise!

My point is that without a conduct code, if the forum is allowed to run totally wide open, it will get crazy in here. I know you've seen some of the outbreaks and forumfights in here, we dont consider that really appropriate.

:)true and i thought that we had a perfectly workable system along those lines..........did the ot section go because it got raucus at times or was it a few disinterested souls who just decided for everyone that it was more trouble than it was worth........like i said if a particular thread is of no interest,shine it on,and if it is offensive or out of hand that is the moderators call.sure there were some flaming and catcalls but there was also a lot of interesting stuff too.....i dont recall beng innundated with porn or off color stuff in the pre purge days so i think it a tad silly to trot that out as an excuse now....no one said anything about running wide open and we're hardly 20 year old club kids.....kee-rist now every time two or more people disagree on anything its a crisis........hell ive been attacked for everything from posting in whats playing,to my politics,and god knows what all else.........but at least then i knew where i was.......

4313B
06-20-2007, 01:39 PM
If you aren't...then you don't deserve respect in return and should go elsewhere.You sure nailed that one.

Zilch
06-20-2007, 01:44 PM
Somebody had to moderate OT, and because of its inherent volatility, that required a disproportionate level of attention and effort dedicated to material by definition outside the site mission.

Conflict generated there also spilled over into the on-topic forums, necessitating more intensive moderation of them, as well.

That's my take on why it didn't work....

4313B
06-20-2007, 01:49 PM
did the ot section go because it got raucus at times or was it a few disinterested souls who just decided for everyone that it was more trouble than it was worthLike Mr. Widget and I said earlier, it's still being discussed and yet we are still seeing these posts. I'll gladly offer up a hint - when the threads go on and on it ticks everyone off from the top right on down the line and then the "I see no point in letting this thread continue" gets stamped at the end along with a "closed" sign.

jim campbell
06-20-2007, 01:55 PM
AK has sections for everyone...yes... everyone. Almost anything goes as long as it's suitable for the entire family...think PG-13 rating... and any conversations that get out of line are quickly extinguished. It ain't a total free-for-all...and it shouldn't be. Public places should never be a free-for-all. That why we have police dept's...like'em or not.

There is talk of members here not caring for sections like DIY, and rather like hanging out in an "off topic" section to be able to discuss whatever comes up at any given moment.

Running this place has got to be contolled to keep the costs in line. If it keeps broadening you can count on additional sources of revenue being added by necessity....nothing is free...at least not for too long.

Have you ever been to an open house party thrown by teenagers when the parents are away? The place gets trashed...destroyed....because many people don't care about messing up someone else's house...because it's not their's ...and might be envious of what someone else has and they don't.

I would think most...no...all people here would expect guests in their home to be respectful of their host. This is Don's house and the moderators can be considered the "doormen".

If you aren't...then you don't deserve respect in return and should go elsewhere.

My lecture has ended;).you miss the point.whether i like or dislike diy is not relevent,others want it and thats why i dont call for its removal..........ot was liked by some and a few others decided that their longevity trumped and it was gone.........if cost is an issue then lets put those cards on the table...........just lets see someone put a price tag on off topic rants as opposed to your pictures.........you cant have it both ways......

as i said we were hardly on the road to ruin before.im sure the entry fee into "don's house" is not blind agreement with everything he says.......my house is like that and i get few visitors

much as id like to afford infallibility on the mods they are human and some have rushed to judgement hastily before and it behooves us to call them on it when it occurs.........i remember a moderator taking an esteemed member to task simply for not owning jbl's............i think it was bo that spoke of restraint and each and every mod should have that post tattooed on somewhere........

i think it all boils down to letting the other guy have his place even if it is of no particular interest to you................that sir IS respect

for some reason my multi quote is not working.......

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 01:59 PM
true and i thought that we had a perfectly workable system along those lines..........did the ot section go because it got raucus at times or was it a few disinterested souls who just decided for everyone that it was more trouble than it was worth........like i said if a particular thread is of no interest,shine it on,and if it is offensive or out of hand that is the moderators call.sure there were some flaming and catcalls but there was also a lot of interesting stuff too.....i dont recall beng innundated with porn or off color stuff in the pre purge days so i think it a tad silly to trot that out as an excuse now....no one said anything about running wide open and we're hardly 20 year old club kids.....kee-rist now every time two or more people disagree on anything its a crisis........hell ive been attacked for everything from posting in whats playing,to my politics,and god knows what all else.........but at least then i knew where i was.......Im just saying that at one time, this forum could have its baudy moments. Then, as the forum grew, not everyone was ok with mature subject and content. I was. But, hey, I am not the only one here, either.

At that time, a decision was made, by the sites owner and people helping run the site, that certain things were not appropriate here. YOU never saw forum member CamelToes avatar I guess? I thought it was hilarious, others thought it wasnt right!

Also I am not suggesting we are 20yr olds, just that that forum is a good place to see how things get wild. Not hating, just explicit. You can turn anything into a joke or a meaning far from what was originally intended. Thats all. I happen to like talking with the club kids over there. They are always asking me about old analog club sound of the 70,s and 80,s and WHY did it sound better? And some of the more explicit stuff is VERY entertaining, TO ME, but this is a different forum, and has different rules.

Personally, I would love to see a paid membership, similar to AK, with an adult section, that you must register for seperatly from the regular forum, that way, those that DO register for the adult OT section KNOW what they are getting into. Those that dont want it? Dont sign up for it, and you wont have access to it! THIS is MY personal way I would like to see it done! And, its just my opinion, if it never happens, or Don, or anyone else doesnt like it, OK, I can live with that! Thats the way things go.

Now, this is just me, talking to you guys. No moderator, just Scott. These are some of my ideas and opinions. However, I also am aware that just because I make them known, doesnt mean Don, or anyone has an obligation to make them a reality on this site either!

:)

jim campbell
06-20-2007, 02:01 PM
Like Mr. Widget and I said earlier, it's still being discussed and yet we are still seeing these posts. I'll gladly offer up a hint - when the threads go on and on it ticks everyone off from the top right on down the line and then the "I see no point in letting this thread continue" gets stamped at the end along with a "closed" sign.then i will leave it there.........

kingjames
06-20-2007, 03:17 PM
There is talk of members here not caring for sections like DIY, and rather like hanging out in an "off topic" section to be able to discuss whatever comes up at any given moment.

Running this place has got to be contolled to keep the costs in line. If it keeps broadening you can count on additional sources of revenue being added by necessity....nothing is free...at least not for too long.



It's not a matter of not caring for the diy section but a matter of feeling comfortable. I still read the diy for tips and such and have learned alot but I don't feel comfortable posting there just yet because my skills are not where I want them to be. I do this out of respect for the pro's who use that area.This is IMHO is real respect.

I am sure this place cost much to run but if you remember not too long along we were told by the people who host this site that resources are not a problem.

I think that everyone who contributes to this site does so because they feel that nothing is free and this is their way to show appreciation for this site.

I could be wrong but most contributions come from people who do not spend their time in the diy area.Actually this really has nothing to do with the diy area. It has to do with content for every one.

And if you look at the past fundraiser's, money shouldn't be an issue anyway.Funds can only be generated by a happy populace.

I don't want an OT area where everything goes,we have moderator's to make sure that doesn't happen. I want an OT area because that was a medium to cover other subjects that are also important.

I am sorry but as much as I try I just can't sleep,walk,talk,or constantly converse on JBL nor should I be expected to.

4313B
06-20-2007, 03:26 PM
It's not a matter of not caring for the diy section but a matter of feeling comfortable. I still read the diy for tips and such and have learned alot but I don't feel comfortable posting there just yet because my skills are not where I want them to be. I do this out of respect for the pro's who use that area.This is IMHO is real respect.Um, others have virtually no problem whatsoever spamming that section to death dude, even when asked to cool it, so you might as well jump right in too.

I actually have a plan to split up DIY in the coming weeks.

scott fitlin
06-20-2007, 03:38 PM
I am sorry but as much as I try I just can't sleep,walk,talk,or constantly converse on JBL nor should I be expected to.I feel you on this. I also would like to come to some form of being able to have an OT type section, a place where we can just hang out, and shoot the breeze.

As has been stated, its under consideration.

Don McRitchie
06-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Geeze. Go away for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose. I just got back from a work trip up north. I flew back in a small plane and landed in the worst thunderstorm I have ever experienced in the air. If you've ever seen the flying scene in the movie Almost Famous - it wasn't quite that bad, but it was in the same ball park. Now I come here and its like I'm back in that plane being buffeted up and down :D

That was meant to be a joke, but there is obviously an element of truth behind it. I'll try and address all of the diverse elements in this thread from my perspective as follows.

First, the signature issue was stand alone. Like Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". There's no hidden agenda nor is it part of an indirect assault on some larger issue. As you know, personal matters took me away from regular involvement in this forum for some time. I have recently been trying to catch up by reading old threads. Many were a difficult read because the repeated use of long signatures broke up continuity. Further, it got to the point of annoyance to be exposed to the same bits of text over and over again. It was like having a CD on repeat play for the same song. Eventually it drives you nuts.

There is no question that there are larger issues to do with the demeanor, content, rules and moderation of this forum. As has been pointed out, the forum has experienced continued growth since the day it opened to the point that we have grown by an order of magnitude in daily posts over just the past four years. The original rules that I put in place were reflective of a small community that was not terribly diverse in interest and personality. This is certainly not true today. We are dealing with an much wider range of interest, level of involvement and personal demeanor for the membership at large. This expansion of scope has resulted in some degree of conflict and I commend the admins and mods is doing an effective but thankless job of keeping things on a reasonable keel.

However, I do intend that this forum is reflective of the desires of the membership at large to the degree possible. The key qualifier here is "to the degree possible". It is absolutely impossible to achieve anything near consensus on virtually any issue as evidenced by the comments in this thread alone. Nonetheless, I am always open to suggestions to positive change that has substantial majority support. To that end, feel free to suggest any changes that you would like to see. However, the following qualifiers will apply.

First, maintaining a degree of order and a degree of relevance in the overall forum must be preserved or enhanced by any suggested change. Second, you need to come up with fully detailed proposals for which a decision can be made to either implement or reject. Simply stating that you don't like something is not a proposal. If you would like to make a proposal, start a new thread in this "Forum Feedback" board that not only details your proposal, but explains why you want it implemented and what results you expect. Expressing such a proposal as a poll is probably the most effective means. For anyone that wants to respond to such a post or poll, they must ensure that the keep their response completely on topic. If the discussion sparks interest in another related change, then start a new thread with a detailed proposal just on the new development. Hijacking will not be tolerated on these threads.

Quite frankly, much of this thread reads to me like a bitch session. While venting can be healthy for the venter, it really isn't constructive and doesn't give the forum organizers anything concrete to work with. By all means, try to channel your frustrations into proposals for positive change and I guarantee you will get a full hearing.

Don

hjames
06-20-2007, 03:50 PM
I think that everyone who contributes to this site does so because they feel that nothing is free and this is their way to show appreciation for this site.

I could be wrong but most contributions come from people who do not spend their time in the diy area.Actually this really has nothing to do with the diy area. It has to do with content for every one.

I am sorry but as much as I try I just can't sleep,walk,talk,or constantly converse on JBL nor should I be expected to.

I don't do that either - I think I've contributed in all the recent fundraisers and stuff - and I read all over the site. I think lots of folks do. If I know something about a person, I can learn from what they have to say, no matter what they are talking about.

When i want to talk about non-JBL stuff, I do it offline, or in other sites.
I don't come here and expect to talk about tomato plants or aphids or anything like that. It wouldn't expect to. Its not a flame, no insult meant.
No sarcasm.

There is a huge internet out there - lots of places to talk. An even bigger world offline. Lots of nice folks to talk to there...

If something is lacking here, I can generally find it elsewhere ...

But I come here to learn about the JBL stuff and how best to "care and feed" it ...

End of discussion - I'm off to see k.d Lang and Lyle Lovett - have fun y'all!

Ian Mackenzie
06-20-2007, 04:25 PM
Talk about an anxiety attack.

I would suggest this is NOT a place that you become obsessed with or spent every free moment of the day pouring over.

kingjames
06-20-2007, 04:35 PM
I don't do that either - I think I've contributed in all the recent fundraisers and stuff - and I read all over the site. I think lots of folks do. If I know something about a person, I can learn from what they have to say, no matter what they are talking about.

When i want to talk about non-JBL stuff, I do it offline, or in other sites.
I don't come here and expect to talk about tomato plants or aphids or anything like that. It wouldn't expect to. Its not a flame, no insult meant.
No sarcasm.

There is a huge internet out there - lots of places to talk. An even bigger world offline. Lots of nice folks to talk to there...

If something is lacking here, I can generally find it elsewhere ...

But I come here to learn about the JBL stuff and how best to "care and feed" it ...

Heather what is wrong with discussing other issues on the same forum? When I want to learn about JBL I will read the appropiate threads to get that information.

Remember the Porn issue years ago where the Supreme court ruled that porn magazines were not considered porn and people had the choice either to buy them or not.

This applies here as people have a choice on which thread's to read. As a community you will have different issues it is only natural.

Any forum that sticks only to diy projects,or posting of marketplace items,or birthday greetings will not survive. You attract members and revenue by providing content for the masses and we must figure out what content will be allowed.

I am only here because I think JBL is the best so I prefer to be here. I won't start a thread about Bose or Klipsch in the general forum but I might go to the ot area to show my dislike for them.

I won't come here and ask if I should use Tide detergent or not, I can get that info somewhere else and won't bother people with trivial things as that.

It all comes down to rules and regulations and things can work and everyone can be happy if all rules and regulations are abided by.

kingjames
06-20-2007, 04:43 PM
Talk about an anxiety attack.

I would suggest this is NOT a place that you become obsessed with or spent every free moment of the day pouring over.

I spend a short time here everyday and I don't take it to extreme as this place is not a high priority for me but at the same time I like coming here to see what's happening and what tips and bits I can pick up. Learned alot here but can learn alot more

boputnam
06-20-2007, 06:35 PM
Quite frankly, much of this thread reads to me like a bitch session. No kidding.


I have noticed recently that there is alot of banning going on here. Off topic, now Avatar's and signatures,what's next?Dood, can you try and tone down these inflamatory critiques? They are most discouraging of calm discourse. You raise the hackles of anyone trying to maintain a semblance of order here, which is not as trivial or as thoughtless as you suggest.

Actually, these remarks are different from the "pm" you - maybe read-over these posts before hitting reply...? Pretty please? :baby:

kingjames
06-20-2007, 07:05 PM
My response Bo was sarcastic and I take my evidence from the fact that you chose to close the ot area after such talk was discussed here, we were constantly being reminded that this area was not wanted by some and then one day it was gone. I was only saying that I hope one day I don't wake up and the signatures and Avatars are gone.

I think I have been pretty civil in my responses and I find this response should have been pm'd to me instead of posted here as I would have shown you that respect.

There are a few who have said more on this issue than I with harsher words and I find it rather discerning that you would single out my post.

I call it as I see it. By the way Bo I do have a name and it's not dood.

boputnam
06-20-2007, 07:20 PM
My response Bo was sarcastic and I take my evidence from the fact that you chose to close the ot area after such talk was discussed here, we were constantly being reminded that this area was not wanted by some and then one day it was gone. OK. But that may not have translated, is my point.


There are a few who have said more on this issue than I with harsher words and I find it rather discerning that you would single out my post.Look, I care less that you are pissed at me. ANY allusions to "censorship" or "banning" here are taken very seriously - it cannot be viewed in a "sarcastic" light. I wish you could understand that. THAT is why your post was singled out.

I'll go double-check and ensnare any other similar ingracious behavior...


By the way Bo I do have a name and it's not dood.I know that, but your moniker is not your name and you don't sign your posts. Out of respect of your privacy choice, "dood" applies. :)

I'm sorry if you are offended.

kingjames
06-20-2007, 07:36 PM
Bo, you were the only one to relpy to my posting with this attitude as I believe everyone else knew what I was trying to say.I think we have accomplished alot today by these discussions and I still don't understand why after all these discussions that only you would respond in the manner that you did.

My tone was civil and very respectful of other members opinions. You're response in my opinion was nothing more than adjutating and not very productive.

You accuse me of inciting things that you know full well people have been talking about for some time without any input from me.

I believe it is this kind of uneven justice that we talk about here and coming from a moderator is even more disheartful.

I would at least ask for a clarification before I accuse anyone of doing something but, then that's me.

boputnam
06-20-2007, 09:07 PM
I believe everyone else knew what I was trying to say.You are entitled to your perception.

This, however argues against your view...

Quite frankly, much of this thread reads to me like a bitch session.


I still don't understand why after all these discussions that only you would respond in the manner that you did.Dood... I have all manner of distractions out here in the physical world - I cannot spend the time here you do. I scan, proof-read and watch for inflamatory stuff so the rest of you can have fun.

I object to the use of "banning" or "censorship" in any so-called sarcastic manner. It is very offputting, unfair and a sensitive topic. Get it?


I believe it is this kind of uneven justice that we talk about here and coming from a moderator is even more disheartful. Perfect. Thank-you very much!
Just put me on "ignore" - your choice...

I am done with your rationalization here.

I said, I am sorry you are offended at my making a point of your post.

kingjames
06-20-2007, 10:00 PM
you didn't make a point you singled me out with an accusation that wasn't true. I don't like confrontations it is not the proper thing to do here but you flat out accused me of inciting other's here when it is you're words that do the inciting.

Because you have one more delete button than me doesn't give you the right to accuse me of something I didn't do and no matter how you try to sugarcoat it you can not hide by saying this is my perception.

I will say I know you have an unthankful job by sifting through all the bullshit here and I do thankyou for you're efforts but in this case you targeted a thread that had no bullshit in it.

I will not put you on my ignore lists as previous to this I always thought you were one of the most fair minded moderator's on this forum and I can't believe that my post required this response but like you I think it's time to leave this alone and I will back off.

Robh3606
06-20-2007, 10:02 PM
My tone was civil and very respectful of other members opinions. You're response in my opinion was nothing more than adjutating and not very productive.

You accuse me of inciting things that you know full well people have been talking about for some time without any input from me.


Was it?? Go back and read your entire post. He's not the only one who felt that way. I read it and was also taken back by it, heres why.


I have noticed recently that there is alot of banning going on here. Off topic, now Avatar's and signatures,what's next?

I also have noticed that most of this banning has only one cause,(all these issues are disruptive according to some).



as a peon I must submit to the higher rule as I know I am only here because they allow it.



but now with all these rules you are making it impossible to want to be here.


Too few here are held accountable for their actions.The end result being that everyone suffer's.


In the end I will submit like I always do, I have removed my short signature 10 minutes after Don posted his restrictions. I will also remove my Avatar within minutes the moment they are banned and I will remove myself within minutes should you think that I need to be banned.

So what exactly are you trying to say here in a respectful manner??

There is a double standard

You are a peon ruled over by??

Don makes a simple change and it's too much???

Too few are held accountable so you want us to adopt a more aggressive Moderation style??

The last one What's that about??

I am not trying to pick on you but it's very easy to misread a post. Depending on the topic of converstation and what side of the road you are on. You will have certain phrases and sentences stickout in your mind and potentially miss the meaning completely. This is not a perfect medium. If I could see you talking face to face it would be completely different. I think the chosen quotes makes the point.


Rob:)

kingjames
06-20-2007, 11:09 PM
Was it?? Go back and read your entire post. He's not the only one who felt that way. I read it and was also taken back by it, heres why.











So what exactly are you trying to say here in a respectful manner??

There is a double standard

You are a peon ruled over by??

Don makes a simple change and it's too much???

Too few are held accountable so you want us to adopt a more aggressive Moderation style??

The last one What's that about??

I am not trying to pick on you but it's very easy to misread a post. Depending on the topic of converstation and what side of the road you are on. You will have certain phrases and sentences stickout in your mind and potentially miss the meaning completely. This is not a perfect medium. If I could see you talking face to face it would be completely different. I think the chosen quotes makes the point.


Rob:)

I haven't yet figured out how to do quotes the right way so I must retype what you said manually and then put my response below that,

There is a double standard (you're words)

Yes there is, I can bring up old threads where senior members were allowed to post off topic material in the general forum without a worry and at the same time when some other members did it they were called on it.

You are a peon ruled over by (you're words)

My way of saying that I am but a small person here and only here at the owners wishes.

Don made a simple change and it's too much (you're words)

Not too much but was hoping that it was not a warning of more restrictive things to come.

Too few are held accountable so you want us to adopt a more aggresive moderation style. (you're words)

Signatures come to mind here, there were afew that were provocative in nature and everyone knew what they meant and not one moderator Put a stop to it. Never said anything about a more aggressive style, you misread.

In the end you say it is easy to misread a post but it is not I who misread one, it is you and Bo who misread mine. I might also say there were a few reply's to mine with the same views that I have and yet they were not called on it only me.What do you call that. What, you didn't misread theirs???????????????

Storm
06-20-2007, 11:10 PM
It is so awesome to see such freedom of speech and opinions....love it!

;)

Great work, guys!

-Storm

Robh3606
06-21-2007, 06:08 AM
Yes there is, I can bring up old threads where senior members were allowed to post off topic material in the general forum without a worry and at the same time when some other members did it they were called on it.


Good ,no inuendo the truth, that's how you really feel plain as day. So do it. Show me what your talikng about.


You are a peon ruled over by (you're words)


The Peon part is yours and implies a lot more than that. It's a poor choice of words. I don't consider anyone here a peon.


Don made a simple change and it's too much (you're words)

Not too much but was hoping that it was not a warning of more restrictive things to come.


You read into it hence my "Why is the sky always falling" comment.


In the end you say it is easy to misread a post but it is not I who misread one, it is you and Bo who misread mine.

Hey I was trying to be nice. If I took them at face just the way they are written you don't think they could be considered provocative?? So after I pointed out what could be considered as inflamatory you take no responsabillity for the content, we completely misunderstood you. It's OK for you to post that based on what you thought was going to happen but it's not OK for us to react to the quoted sections from your post?? You won't even consider looking at this from the other side of the fence and give us an, I can see your point??

I suggest you choose your words more carefully and I will read your posts more carefully as well. If you have something to say just say it. Your in Forum Feedback if there is an issue keep it simple. Don't be verbose or beat around the bush just get to the point and keep it clear so there are no misunderstandings.

Rob:)

boputnam
06-21-2007, 08:06 AM
I haven't yet figured out how to do quotes the right way...That, I CAN help you with... :p

Single quotes:
- Use the "Quote" button at the lower RH corner of every post.
- Click that IN the post you wish to quote - the entire post appears between [---] and [/---]. These MUST stay in-place at the start and end of whatever you wish quoted. You can (and should...) delete any superfluous text, helping readers follow your thought process. But LEAVE the [---] and [/---] at start and end. After the [/---] thingy, start your reply.

Multiple quotes:
- Use the ' " ' quotes icon in the lower RH corner of each post. Go through the thread, and Click on these icons IN THE ORDER YOU WISH THE QUOTES TO APPEAR for your parsed reply. These will "glow" orange...
- Click the Reply button, and all the Quotes will appear, in the order you hit the ' " ' quotes icon.
- edit as per the Single quotes instructions.

:)

kingjames
06-21-2007, 12:15 PM
Good ,no inuendo the truth, that's how you really feel plain as day. So do it. Show me what your talikng about.

Prefer not to drag others into this as it wouldn't be fair to put them on the spot to defend myself



[guote=Robh3606;174456]The Peon part is yours and implies a lot more than that. It's a poor choice of words. I don't consider anyone here a peon.[/quote]

Peon to me means low on the totem pole.No power to change things and not less worthy and, because you took this one the wrong way you interjected the word control which I did not use. These 2 words together in the same sentence will deliver you're interpretation. Howver I never used these two words together.




You read into it hence my "Why is the sky always falling" comment.

Fully understood this meaning




Hey I was trying to be nice. If I took them at face just the way they are written you don't think they could be considered provocative?? So after I pointed out what could be considered as inflamatory you take no responsabillity for the content, we completely misunderstood you. It's OK for you to post that based on what you thought was going to happen but it's not OK for us to react to the quoted sections from your post?? You won't even consider looking at this from the other side of the fence and give us an, I can see your point??

The initial response from Bo should have been handled through a pm and should have asked for a clarification. I have done this with moderators and you know who you are because it is easy to mis read something.

The original response by Bo triggered a defense mechanism that we all have and after this is triggered the original post is no longer important.

I have on occasion reply'ed to posts with the words" I don't know if you are being sarcastic or what but, I will assume you are not" because I read this person's response 3 different ways but gave him the benefit of the doubt by not challenging his response. It is hard enough to write a paragraph let alone trying to write where everyone gets the same meaning from it.

In this case I should have been pm'ed as it was a moderator who responded in this tone.A clarification should have been asked for and I would have gladly explained my posisition and he could have explained his.I would have edited my response over his concern but was never given the chance to explain the meaning of my words.

This was a major problem in the Ot area (mis-reading posts). I agree this needs to be worked on or that area will never work. I only ask in the future if there is a problem with the words I use at least give me the oppurtunity to explain myself as, you have have said it is easy to misread.Assume nothing,pm me and I will be more than glad to edit my future posts if you think my words are hurtful or inciteful.

In the end on this matter the whole meaning that I was trying to convey in that post was, Don suggesested signature restrictions and I thought more restrictive policies were coming. With this in mind I said I will submit to whatever he decide's as I have no power in his house to change things( this is the definition of Peon here)I also went on to say that the word "Ban" is used quite often here and this is proven by other responses to my thread. I never try to use words to harm anyone and I go out of my way not to incite. I could have used far worse to convey this without any mis understanding whatsoever.


I suggest you choose your words more carefully and I will read your posts more carefully as well. If you have something to say just say it. Your in Forum Feedback if there is an issue keep it simple. Don't be verbose or beat around the bush just get to the point and keep it clear so there are no misunderstandings.

Until people take the time out to ask for a clarification, using words more carefully will not solve the problem. We are different beings,we think different and apparently we read into things differently. With this in mind this can be solved by a pm if you think there is a problem with choice of words.

Bo, I had to manually put all the brackets in front and end of each of Robh's lines to get this end result and it worked ok but I don't believe it's the easiest way to accomplish it.I am working on it though. Thanks! Jim

boputnam
06-21-2007, 12:27 PM
That, I CAN help you with... :pYou're quite welcome. :)


The initial response from Bo should have been handled through a pm...:no:


In this case I should have been pm'ed as it was a moderator who responded in this tone.What?


I would have edited my response over his concern but was never given the chance to explain the meaning of my words.You still can do this, and were given plenty chances - which remain and you keep using. You have aptly explained and rationalized but refuse to do anything other than push responsibility elsewhere. Weird. I now "get" your sarcasm. Your post is too easily misconstrued and it would be reallly helpful if you would take that part out and not make such inferences casually in the future.


Until people take the time out to ask for a clarification, using words more carefully will not solve the problem. That is a cop-out. Take responsibility for your posts.

It has been proven innumerable times here, and it certainly does help, to try and ensure one's meaning is clear and not overly open for (incorrect) interpretation. It's called "ownership".

boputnam
06-21-2007, 01:02 PM
This has gone wildly OT. It's also become a horrid distraction.

How 'bout we just motor on from here?
We have sullied this thread.
We agree to disagree.
We will all do better.
No harm; no foul.

Happy Solstice!
Now, let's go out and do something suitably pagan to celebrate the day... :D

Wish I had a festival to do - but that was last weekend... :)

kingjames
06-21-2007, 03:13 PM
I have tried to delete all my post here but it will not allow me to.I agree let's move on,:cheers:

boputnam
06-21-2007, 05:44 PM
I have tried to delete all my post here but it will not allow me to.If that is important to you, please give permission here and perhaps Rob or I can do it - get back to where this thread went awry.

It's a good thing you took the initiative and started the renewed OT thingy, dood. And then Rob added the Poll. I'm curious to see the outcome of that.

kingjames
06-21-2007, 06:04 PM
Foget it Bo, it's not necessary, it's already out of mind and I will concentrate on the ot thread. thanks though!

After second thought maybe you should delete what you think inappropiate. I trust you're judgement. Thanks. jim

scott fitlin
06-21-2007, 06:27 PM
It's a good thing you took the initiative and started the renewed OT thingy, dood. And then Rob added the Poll. I'm curious to see the outcome of that.Actually I added the poll. It is a simple yes or no poll, and I chose to leave the voters anonymous. It might have been interesting to know who voted which way, but then, that could have lead to ill feelings between members too, so I chose the simplest poll we have available. Yes or No, anonymous voting.

I, too, want to see the outcome!

:)

kingjames
06-21-2007, 06:33 PM
I to am very curious about the outcome and I guess we will see what the masses say. I also think anonymous was a good call on Scotty's part.:yes:

Mr. Widget
06-21-2007, 07:46 PM
I to am very curious about the outcome and I guess we will see what the masses say. I also think anonymous was a good call on Scotty's part.:yes:I am not sure anonymous is such a big deal... it seems pretty obvious where most of us stand on this one... for example, you voted yes and I voted no.:D


Ultimately, polls or not, it will be Don's decision. He usually makes good decisions but isn't afraid to change course when things don't work out exactly as planned.


Widget

kingjames
06-21-2007, 08:00 PM
I am not sure anonymous is such a big deal... it seems pretty obvious where most of us stand on this one... for example, you voted yes and I voted no.:D


Ultimately, polls or not, it will be Don's decision. He usually makes good decisions but isn't afraid to change course when things don't work out exactly as planned.


Widget

Actually Mr.Widget I tried to vote 5 times yes but the poll wouldn't allow me to do it.:D