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Steve Schell
06-01-2007, 01:01 PM
Yesterday I set up a pair of Lansing Iconics to listen to in stereo for the first time. I have blathered on about this in another thread:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16911

At one point a slight buzz was evident in the high frequency driver of the left speaker. This Iconic is the oldest one I have seen, and uses the early style dividing network (serial #70) as pictured in the Lansing Iconic bulletin of 1937:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/lmco/bulletins/4b.jpg

Anyway, I swapped out the 801 driver for another one and set the buzzing one aside for later inspection. This morning my friend Robert (who was collecting Lansing field coil stuff before I ever heard of it) took the ailing driver out to the shop to disassemble it. Shortly after, he ran into the house proclaiming a major discovery... this 801 has a radial slit phasing plug!

Considering the history of the Lansing drivers, this discovery actually makes sense. Jim Lansing had been warned by Western Electric (probably in 1936 or 1937) that his 284 large format compression driver (developed for the MGM Shearer Horn) was being built in violation of their patent on the circumferential slit phasing plug. W.E. was apparently beginning to produce their 594A at the time, a 4" diaphragm driver based closely on E.C. Wente's U.S. Patent #2,037,187. Lansing had his engineer Dr. John Blackburn seek a solution to this dilemma. Blackburn designed a 20 slit radial phasing plug for the large driver and it continued on otherwise unchanged as the model 285.

The Lansing Iconic was introduced in 1937; the earliest ad we have seen appeared in October of that year:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/lmco/advertizements/1937-electronics.jpg

On September 1st, 1937 Western Electric signed a consent decree with the government to cease the supply and servicing of sound systems in theatres in the U.S. This evidently relieved Jim Lansing of the threat of legal action, and he soon resumed manufacture of his large format driver with circumferential phasing plug, calling it the 284B.

I had always wondered why the Lansing Bulletin on the Iconic referred to the high frequency driver as an 801, yet almost every example I have seen is labeled 801B. I believe that we now have the answer. Both large and small format drivers were likely converted to circumferential slit phasing plugs as soon as the threat of litigation was removed.

Unfortunately the label from this historic 801 was crudely removed by someone long ago, but it would have had a low serial number judging from the dividing network fitted to the same system. Another unusual feature is the rear cap, which was formed from heavy copper sheet and chrome plated. Most 801Bs have a painted cap which was formed from thinner aluminum sheet. Some later Altec era 801Bs have a die cast cap with the star pattern, as also seen on the field coil Altec 601 Duplex and early 604 Duplex.

The Lansing 801 is the direct ancestor of all the later Altec and JBL 1.75" diaphragm small format compression drivers. We now have evidence that the earliest commercially produced version used a 14 section radial slit phasing plug. Wow!

scott fitlin
06-01-2007, 01:14 PM
Great find! Your amazing Steve.

Ive learned much more about really old audio from you than anyone or anywhere else!

BTW, WHAT do those drivers sound like? :applaud:

louped garouv
06-01-2007, 01:32 PM
simply amazing.....

Hofmannhp
06-01-2007, 02:05 PM
..... This Iconic is the oldest one I have seen, and uses the early style dividing network (serial #70) as pictured in the Lansing Iconic bulletin of 1937:
.....

Hi Steve,

amazing stuff.....I would like it to write this years into the columns of the registry sheets
Is it possible to put it into the registry ?
pls give me a PM for this....

HP

Steve Schell
06-01-2007, 02:10 PM
I forgot to mention that the buzz had likely resulted from a thick deposit of oxide from the plating on the center pole. A "skirt" was visible where the voice coil had been, and the deposit was much thicker below that point. It was wiped off before the picture was taken. Ever seen the yellowish mung on old Altec mounting hardware? Similar stuff.

Scott, I discuss the sound of the 801s a bit in the other thread. Basically they sound to me like 802C or D but punchier, with super sharp and clean transients, and very sweet on top with no breakup tizzy sound at all.

Here's a scan of a quick 1/3 octave RTA measurement at the mouth of one of the h.f. horn cells. The low frequencies were from the woofer section which I had not disconnected. A multicellular disperses highs widely in a similar way to a conical horn, so the curve gives evidence to the driver's naturally downsloping power response; no on-center beaming like an 811 to make it look flat to 10kHz. The level falls about 10dB from 1kHz. to 10kHz. Considering that, it is a very smooth performer up to 10kHz., above which it falls off pretty rapidly. The top octave will probably measure flatter on an 802 with its tangential compliance, but they sound a little more "tsss, tsss" to me.

Overall, I am really knocked out by the majestic sound of these 70 year old speakers.

scott fitlin
06-01-2007, 02:19 PM
Like I said, your amazing! And I love finding out about the really old stuff, and how good it really did sound.

Quality materials, and top notch American made craftmanship in all its glory, drivers produced that excelled beyond their time!

Thank you for sharing.

moldyoldy
06-01-2007, 02:54 PM
Blackburn's radial-slit phase plug patent, filed 1937, issued 1939;

http://www.google.com/patents?id=LfZNAAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:2183528&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2007&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2007&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=2007&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=2007

Note lack of assignee...meaning Blackburn personally owned the patent rights...

spkrman57
06-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I always look forward to your posts on the very vintage type audio gear of yesterday!:applaud:

Ron

moldyoldy
06-01-2007, 08:37 PM
I found it particularly interesting that Blackburn's patent illustration shows a threaded horn connection as opposed to stud & plate...

Steve Schell
06-01-2007, 10:13 PM
Moldyoldy, thanks for linking to Dr. Blackburn's patent; I should have done this.

I have often wondered who originated the idea of the radial slit phasing plug. RCA collaborated with the MGM team during the creation of the Shearer Horn System. Lansing Mfg. Co. supplied many drivers to RCA in the mid to late 1930s, as well as to the Loews theatre owners for their new systems that were otherwise all RCA. RCA was building their MI-1428A compression driver by late 1936; it had an eight slit radial plug, and was soon replaced by the MI-1428B with its fifteen slit plug. These were very different drivers than the Wente-inspired Lansing drivers, as they used a 4.5" composite cone diaphragm and exited out the end rather than through the body of the driver. RCA had been in a pitched battle with Western Electric over what it felt was its domination of the theatre business, and evidently took pains to avoid building any design that could be considered an infringement of W.E.'s patents.

Lansing began building Blackburn's radial slit plug in 1936 or 1937 when the threat of legal action dictated the change. It was said in print at the time that the reason for the change was that the radial plug was easier to manufacture, though we know the real story. Isn't it curious though that Lansing reverted to the circumferential plug in both driver formats as soon as conditions permitted?

By about the time Dr. Blackburn's patent was granted, he had left Lansing to work on radar for the government at M.I.T. Lansing had likely reverted to the circumferential plug by then anyway, so there was no need for assignment of the patent to Lansing Mfg. Co.

Max Graham of RCA is generally credited with the design of the RCA 1400 series drivers. He worked under John Volkmann, who (as John Hilliard mentioned in an article) travelled to Hollywood to assist the Shearer team. Dr. Blackburn was of course a member of the team, who then later went to work for Lansing. Somewhere in this critical mass of brilliant minds someone originated the concept of the radial slit phasing plug. Was it Blackburn, Graham or Volkmann? They are all gone now, so we may never know for sure.

The RCA 1400 series compression drivers used a 2.5" 16 TPI attachment to the horn and a 1.5" exit, as did the Lansing 284, 285 and 284B drivers. The business between Lansing and RCA ended around 1940, and each adopted new mounting standards shortly after. The Lansing 287 driver, introduced in (probably) 1940 used a three stud mounting that was retained in the 288. RCA shifted to a two stud mounting about 1942.

Below are a couple of pictures of the RCA MI-1428B phasing plug, a Lansing large format driver with circumferential phasing plug (may be a later 287) and a Lansing 285 with the Blackburn plug.

moldyoldy
06-01-2007, 11:39 PM
Beautiful, museum stuff, Steve, Thanks! I'd never seen the RCA innards before. Is it an illusion, or are the RCA exit openings slightly 'twisted' about the axis?

Thanks for the clarification of the ambiguities relating to Blackburn's patent, too. I had assumed the assignee was designated when a patent was filed, rather than later, when it was issued.

There are likely many details of "who did what, when, and why" we'll never know for sure. I've been on a patent binge recently, with the discovery of Google's patent search abilities. What started as simple curiousity, soon led to the realization that neither Lansing Mfg., nor Altec claimed any patents until fairly late in the game, while Bell, WE, RCA, and others made regular offerings. Can you shed some light on this please?

glen
06-02-2007, 03:30 PM
A fascinating discovery Steve!
Thanks for sharing it with us.

I think you should be named the official PaleoAudiologist of Lansing Heritage!

Earl K
06-02-2007, 06:40 PM
Thanks Steve for showing this to us .

It's great to see those pictures of such a monumental find .


:)

Earl K
06-02-2007, 06:43 PM
moldyoldy,

Thanks for the link to that Googled "Blackburn" patent , very interesting.

- FWIW / I also notice the lack of Hilliards' name anywhere on that document ( notwithstanding everything else ) ;)

:)

moldyoldy
06-02-2007, 08:25 PM
moldyoldy,

Thanks for the link to that Googled "Blackburn" patent , very interesting.

- FWIW / I also notice the lack of Hilliards' name anywhere on that document ( notwithstanding everything else ) ;)

:)

Most welcome, Earl.

Noticed that too, didja? :D

Until Google opened the text on those old patents for us, it was almost as easy to invent something as to find it in 'prior art'. I've found various "duplexes" by others as far back as '29. Altec had no patents until Carrington's Duplex, filed in '47;

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2568883

and Lansing Mfg. had none. None of either company's early "claim to fame", legacy products including VOTT were patented, unless earlier, and by others.

W.E.'s divestiture gave Altec free use of their prior art. Apparrently none of Altec or Lansing's products differed enough from that prior art to warrant their own patents until much later.

Robh3606
06-03-2007, 08:05 AM
Geez what a great thread. How did I miss this:blink:. Great stuff Steve.

Rob:)

Steve Schell
06-03-2007, 02:16 PM
Moldyoldy, I have also enjoyed many evenings surfing for old speaker patents, and this is now made much easier with the marvelous Google patent search tool. They say there is nothing new under the sun, and this seems to be true with loudspeakers. Most of the times I thought I had come up with a new idea, invariably a patent describing much the same thing would surface sooner or later.

The large corporations actively patented their engineers' designs in the early years, and Western Electric in particular tried to enforce them vigorously. The only patent I am aware of during the years of Lansing Mfg. Co.'s operation is Dr. Blackburn's patent on the radial slit phasing plug, and it was not assigned to the company as you have mentioned. There are few Altec patents before the 1970s; I have only found a couple by Paul Veneklasen relating to microphones.

It does make sense that a patent assignee would be stated at time of filing. Otherwise an engineer who made a tremendous discovery would be tempted to leave his company and take the invention with him.

Writing and filing a patent can be an arduous experience. I can see how many might find it not worth the trouble. For many products, the difficulties of manufacturing may be enough of a barrier to entry by competitors.

It is interesting to note that the majority of Altec's enduring speaker designs were based on the products of Lansing Mfg. Co., not Western Electric. This is the tale seldom told in most historical accounts of Altec Lansing, and the founders of this site have done their bit over the past few years to correct the record on this.

Earl, I don't think that John Hilliard was involved in the design of Blackburn's radial slit phasing plug. Although he was an essential part of the Shearer team, the need for the design change from the circumferential plug didn't occur until after that collaboration had ended.

Thanks guys for the other comments. I will take more pictures of the 801 as soon as I figure out the macro feature of my camera.

moldyoldy
06-03-2007, 02:26 PM
I may have found a possible reason why Lansing reverted back to use of Wente’s annular phase plug design after using Blackburn’s radial.

Wente’s design, http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2037187 (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2037187) , provides a plane wave front at the horn throat, while Blackburn’s design (linked above) issues a spherical wavefront.

Many, many moons later, in the Altec patent for the Tangerine radial phase plug, http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4050541 (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4050541) , Henricksen cites both previous designs in his application for patent of a radial slit design that provides the preferred planar wavefront, as well as offering ease of manufacture. (Image below)


(Added)
Then again, there's always the $ angle. Perhaps Blackburn demanded just compensation for use of his design that Lansing couldn't/didn't want to pay. It appears that Blackburn wrote the patent himself, as there is no entry for the commonly used patent attorney.

(Added later)
If one increased the human factor in the equation even further...perhaps Blackburn's version was merely a Trojan Horse, and never intended for long-term continued production...That could create a sizable series of f'd-up serial numbers of "existing stock" annular units....

Steve Schell
06-03-2007, 04:06 PM
Fascinating stuff! I'll have to reread Blackburn's patent for the reference to the spherical wavefront.

Wente was definitely attempting to assemble a planar wavefront in his phasing plug, and the accompanying horn design (patent #1,992,268) takes this into account. In his multicellular horn (the first!), the cells begin in a plane that subdivides the wavefront. They then curve gently to establish their individual axes.

The earliest multicellulars built by Lansing Mfg. Co. were built this way, as were (presumably) the Shearer System prototype horns built at MGM by Bob Stephens. Within a short time the Lansing horns were changed to a straight cell design with spherical grouping at throat and mouth, as later seen in the Altec multicellulars. I have suspected but have seen no proof that this change may have resulted from a charge of patent infringement by W.E., as with the circumferential phasing plug.

The molded Tangerine plug was surely much easier to manufacture than the Blackburn plug, which required forty passes with a mill cutter. The Lansing driver held the plug in place with a rolled lip on the center pole, a more secure arrangement than the CA glue used on the Tangerines!

moldyoldy
06-03-2007, 04:17 PM
Fascinating stuff! I'll have to reread Blackburn's patent for the reference to the spherical wavefront.

Page 4, column 2, lines 28-39

macaroonie
06-04-2007, 09:47 AM
Tannoy ran like this for 50 years ish probably more. They have now moved on to a new core see pic. Just for your interest.

Earl K
06-04-2007, 05:04 PM
Thanks Steve & moldyoldy for all this / I just love the history .

- Here's Peaveys' Patent (http://www.google.com/patents?id=ISYEAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA5&zoom=4&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html) for their improved Radial Slit phase plug. I've glanced at it a few times now / but can't quite comprehend how it's different enough from Uredas ( Altec tangerine ) patent to warrant the "award" . ( Maybe it's because Uredas' specifies the use of prime numbers when choosing the number of radial slits )


Earl, I don't think that John Hilliard was involved in the design of Blackburn's radial slit phasing plug.
- I hope you wrote that with the required dollop of irony ;)

- Building on irony ; I've long found it ironic that there are those that seek to discredit James B. Lansing by pointing out he was primarily a self-taught engineer .
- This, while the outfit ( Altec ) that bought out Lansing, was peopled by well schooled & properly "papered engineers".
- They didn't buy Lansing to suppress & bury Lansings' products so they could introduce their own versions ) / no / on the contray , they milked Lansings' basic products for the next 50 years .
- Did Altec care about protecting the Lansing trade name ? / "U-betcha" / just look at the "cease & desist" orders directed at James B.
- Admit it or not ( today ) / Altec brass at the time, could recognize a mortal threat to their enterprise ( from this "self-taught" engineer ) .

So - I happen to love my 288-8Ks for a bunch of reasons :)

moldyoldy
06-04-2007, 07:05 PM
Well put, Earl! :applaud:

For me, it's about the technology more than the technologists. I can't drive my speakers with a Lee DeForest, but I can with his invention. By piecing together who improved the fritzit with a better doodad, I'm getting a better understanding of the technology, which is my objective. I've learned an incredible amount lately just reading the old patents, largely because they point out flaws in prior art you seldom hear of elsewhere.

There are many ways to reconstruct history, the 2 common ones being;
A. Gather as much data you can that supports the history you want to believe.
B. Objectively compile all relevant data to reflect the most likely true history, pretty or not.
The temptation to use the former is great, particularly if you have an agenda that will benefit.
I'd like to compliment Steve for what appears to be following the latter. :applaud:

(But just in case, I threw in those 'added' maybe/what-ifs) :D

Steve Schell
06-05-2007, 10:10 AM
Moldyoldy, I read Blackburn's comments on the spherical wavefront. The best I can figure, he must be describing a concave wavefront (duplicating the dome shape of the diaphragm in miniature) as the inner and outer paths through the slits are nearly identical in length.

That is very interesting speculation about Dr. Blackburn perhaps seeking royalties for the radial phasing plug! Never thought of that angle. Darn it, we are looking into these matters too late in the game to receive definitive answers to some of these questions, but the pursuit is fun anyway.

Earl, we have run across a sometimes virulent anti Jim Lansing bias among some, but definitely not all ex-Altec employees and service personnel since beginning research for this web site. One Altec veteran from the mid to late 1950s told me that there were some strange looking speaker prototypes sitting on the shelf in the old Santa Monica Boulevard plant. These had allegedly been built by Jim Lansing, and the employees would examine them and proclaim that ol' Jim must have been off his rocker.

This notion that Jim was a skilled tool and die man but certainly not an engineer really falls apart with the least bit of scrutiny. There is no evidence, for example, that anyone else contributed to the designs for the JBL D-101, D-130, D-130A, D-131, D-208, D-175, H-1000, N-1000 or any of the cabinet and system designs of the late 1940s. Though lacking an engineering degree to frame and hang on the wall, Jim was perhaps the best and most practical sort of engineer. He could conceptualize a product, build the tooling, build examples to test and evaluate, then produce the product efficiently in quantity. A friend of mine who has studied his work carefully has mentioned that Jim must have worked quickly to accomplish as much as he did.

There are some common threads that run through all of Jim's work, from the earliest Lansing Mfg. Co. products to the last JBL products produced by him. His designs were invariably simple, elegant, practical, ingenious in subtle ways and groundbreaking in their performance. These are elements of timeless and enduring design, and it is no coincidence that many of his creations had lifespans of several decades and that aspects of them live on in modern products 58 years after his death.

So why the anti Jim Lansing bias at Altec? There are probably several reasons. Jim left Altec in 1946 to begin a company that would become Altec's chief rival. To honor Jim's central role in the development of the Altec product mainstays would have effectively honored their competitor. After Jim's suicide in late 1949, it was probably all too easy to dismiss him as an odd, unfortunate character. Through the years this prejudice was passed down through the ranks. Whatever the reasons, most Altec corporate historical accounts are strangely silent when it comes to the contributions of what should be their central figure. All we usually read is "...purchased the nearly bankrupt Lansing Manufacturing Company..." blah blah blah.

Tom Brennan
06-05-2007, 11:48 AM
In the old days many engineers didn't have degrees. If you engineered you were an engineer.

Engineering is rife with guys who have degrees but no mechanical inclination or intuitive sense of how things work; I often ran into such bozos when I was a boilermaker, get them out in the field and they were lost.

Not that they were all that way of course, I met many good engineers too, especially with Bechtel. But Bechtel pays good and expects results, kind'a odd eh?

intotubes
06-10-2007, 07:01 AM
Engineering is rife with guys who have degrees but no mechanical inclination or intuitive sense of how things work; I often ran into such bozos when I was a boilermaker, get them out in the field and they were lost.


That's been my experience. Good engineers are rare.

glen
06-11-2007, 06:42 PM
So why the anti Jim Lansing bias at Altec? There are probably several reasons. Jim left Altec in 1946 to begin a company that would become Altec's chief rival. To honor Jim's central role in the development of the Altec product mainstays would have effectively honored their competitor.

I think you've got this right Steve.
It would have been easy for the head honchos at Altec to relegate Jim to simply overseeing the manufacturing process when they had many of the best audio engineers in the U.S. on their staff. They could even have been satisfied with accquiring the manufacturing facilities alone and relegated him to a back office to rot.

The fact that so many of his designs were readily adopted and widely marketed by Altec is ample evidence that such prejudice did not exist during his years at Altec, or at least that any such prejudice at the time was not strong enough to overshadow the merit of his designs. I often wonder what contributions he might have made if he had stayed with Altec and continued designing new products there, without the headache and heartbreak of dealing with another economically failing company weighing on his mind.

He initially set his sights on a new consumer market when he left Altec.
But the combination of wanting to capitalize on the "Iconic" and "Lansing" names which were part of the intellectual property that Altec bought as part of the Lansing Manufacturing deal AND the beginings of Jim Lansing's expansion into the theater sound market surely ruffled many feathers at Altec.

It must have also been incredibly gaulling for the college educated engineers of the 50s 60s and 70s to have their efforts constantly overshadowed by the enduring popularity of products designed by a self-educated engineer who left the company in the 40s. In fact NO-ONE who worked at Altec succeeded in eclipsing Jim Lansing's designs, and when those original products lost traction in the marketplace Altec itself faltered.

And the company who's products suceeded Jim Lansing's Altec designs was JBL. It must've been like he was an ever-present ghost that haunted and taunted Altec. No wonder they were frustrated and angry and bore him ill will.

Steve Schell
06-11-2007, 10:03 PM
Glen, you are a deep thinker. Of course I've known that for awhile now.

During Jim Lansing's five year stint as an Altec Lansing VP, he was said to have expressed dissatisfaction with his role there. He said "I'm just a name to them", and complained that he was not really allowed to participate in company decisions. He did tough it out for five years though, as a five year non-competition clause had been included in his agreement to sell Lansing Mfg. Co.

Jim was evidently held in high esteem while at Altec, as he is pictured several times in the Altec Exchange newsletters of the period, the captions respectfully conveying his importance. There was however only a tiny mention of his departure from the company.

I am not sure whether Jim understood that his use of the term "Iconic" would upset the Altec brass until it happened. He had chosen the name in 1937 for his small two way system. When he left Altec in 1946 the Iconic had just been replaced in Altec's line by the 604 Duplex. It is possible that he thought that since Altec had abandoned the product, he would be free to use the name for his new two way system. As it turned out he had only built a few D-101 15" drivers embellished with the Iconic label before Altec got wind of what he was doing and objected.

Again with the name Lansing, I am not sure that he realized that naming his new company "Lansing Sound Incorporated" would cause a stir. He was never known to be a great businessman. He did make the necessary changes immediately once he was contacted by Altec. Of course, having just spent five frustrating years at Altec, another possibility is that he realized what he was doing and wanted to tweak them just a bit.

Altec applied for a trademark for "Iconic" on October 20, 1947. I'm sure this was after the skirmish with Jim was over. I'm not sure whether this application covered the word itself or just the (somewhat strange) artwork.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=luvdqo.3.31

CONVERGENCE
06-12-2007, 09:00 AM
According to the unofficial Altec site George Carrington designed the Altec Duplex and J. Lansing provided the tooling for manufacturing.

SO the ALTEC duplex should be renamed The Altec Carrington Duplex in his honor.

.................................................. ..............................

GGeorge Carrington designedeorge Carrington

moldyoldy
06-12-2007, 05:46 PM
In its 1943 catalog, Altec Lansing claimed the “First Time in History” (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1943/page05.jpg) , they had produced a compact two-way loudspeaker called the Duplex. The term Duplex was never trademarked to a loudspeaker, but is generally interpreted as a wide range loudspeaker with dual, independantly driven, integral sources in coaxial alignment. While the '43 model may technically be the first such loudspeaker to be called a "Duplex", it was preceded by several other patented speakers of such similar design as early as 1929. They just weren't called duplexes.

In 1947, George Carrington filed (Altecs first) patent application for a Loudspeaker with Expanding Horn (http://www.google.com/patents?id=JAhlAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:altec&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2007&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2007&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=2007&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=2007) , and while it resembles in appearance the earlier Duplexes, it’s actually just a single source with a single coil, that uses an aluminum dust cap with a horn placed in front of it. Two months before filing this patent, Altec had applied for Trademark name rights to DIA-CONE, suggesting the combination of a diaphragm and cone, as embodied in Carringtons patent. (Edited) In the 1947 Altec catalog, the embodiment of Carrington's invention can be seen as the 603 Dia-Cone (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1947/page2.jpg) .

(Added)

So, since Jim Lansing was an integral part of Altec Lansing at the time of Altecs 1943 introduction of the 604-type “Duplex”, the question of who was the first Altec employee to attach an existing HF driver to the back of an existing LF driver, with an existing horn on the front is of relevance only to those obsessed with such trivia. Although the 604-type Duplex became very popular, and had some unique features compared to prior art, the question “were the differences from prior art signifigant enough to warrant a patent” is raised. Since no such patent was ever issued in the name of the parties in question, the answer is obviously “No”.

Steve Schell
06-12-2007, 10:47 PM
Moldyoldy, there are numerous examples of coaxial two way speakers that predate the Duplex. L.G. Bostwick's patent may be the first:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=BHRoAAAAEBAJ&dq=l.g.+bostwick

As far as I know these drivers were never produced commercially. Western Electric did build a coaxial horn system in the late 1930s that mounted a 555 driver on the rear of a Jensen 18" woofer. Its path was through the woofer center pole into a nine cell horn, while the woofer was loaded by a reentrant bass horn, similar to the Fletcher bass horn but smaller.

RCA built a two way coaxial horn system in the 1930s - 1950s called the Twin Power. It used separate compression driver/exponential horn and 15" woofer in a bass horn. Both these and the W.E. systems were used at the 1939 New York Worlds Fair.

Arthur Crawford operated a store in Los Angeles from at least the early 1940s through the late 1950s. In the early 1940s he sold two way systems using Lansing Iconic components installed in his own enclosure designs. He is generally crediting with suggesting the idea of the Duplex to Altec. My pet theory is that he got the idea from speakers seen at NYWF, as he had a business office in NYC.

Bob Stephens claimed in his early Tru-sonic catalogs that he had been the first to build and market a two way multicellular horn coaxial speaker. He said that some of the first units (field coil) were installed in the ceiling of Burbank Airport.

The design described in Carrington's patent was built by Altec beginning probably in 1945 as the 603 Dia-cone. The earliest catalog we have that shows it is 1947, but I saved images of one from an ebay auction and its hang tag indicates that Altec had built over 1,200 of them by September, 1946.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1947/page2.jpg

There were also model 400 (8") and 600 (12") Dia-cones that lacked the bakelite horn of the 603. The 603 was a lackluster design; they sound mediocre to me, though Altec sold thousands of them. They cost less than half of a 604, had much the same look, and to me seem like a shrewd marketing strategy more than a carefully worked out design. John Hilliard wrote an article on the 603 that appeared in Audio Engineering magazine in 1947.

Bob Stephens also marketed numerous lower cost speakers over the years with aluminum center domes and diffusors in front. The best known is his "Co-spiral" which placed two jazzy-looking concentric aluminum cones in front of the dome with spiraling attachments between them. He knew a bit about marketing also. These also sound pretty bum.

moldyoldy
06-12-2007, 11:56 PM
The Bostwick patent from '29 is the earliest I've been able to find too, Steve. Thanks for the link, I read it late one night, then lost it.

The more I study and learn, the more apparrent it becomes that there are VERY few truly groundbreaking inventions by individuals. A continued evolution of improvements that can be made upon others work is far more the norm. ;)

boputnam
06-13-2007, 08:28 AM
Blackburn's radial-slit phase plug patent, filed 1937, issued 1939;

http://www.google.com/patents?id=LfZNAAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:2183528&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=2007&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=2007&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=2007&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=2007

Note lack of assignee...meaning Blackburn personally owned the patent rights...Moldyoldy...

That there, is amazing. I search patents all the time, but have always stuck to the USPTO website. :o: I pay $3 a copy from them, when I need hardcopy. I've been waiting days for turnaround on some new requests, and found them - BINGO - with that Google Patent search. Thanks for the tip, dood.

And, of course, to Steve for sharing this really interesting history, and to the rest for contributing to this.

Please give our hello's to Don if you guys do get together at the memorial...

KentGriffith
08-27-2007, 07:53 PM
During Jim Lansing's five year stint as an Altec Lansing VP, he was said to have expressed dissatisfaction with his role there. He said "I'm just a name to them", and complained that he was not really allowed to participate in company decisions. He did tough it out for five years though, as a five year non-competition clause had been included in his agreement to sell Lansing Mfg. Co.

Jim was evidently held in high esteem while at Altec, as he is pictured several times in the Altec Exchange newsletters of the period, the captions respectfully conveying his importance. There was however only a tiny mention of his departure from the company....

This is something I have wondered about many times... Has this issue been thoroughly discussed around here?

I tried to find out some things during my years working at Danforth Sound and all I can repeat are things I heard and bits and pieces I picked up along the way... so let me say what I have heard and see where it goes from here...

I heard that when Jim left Altec Lansing he tried starting up his own company putting out a line of speakers using his own name such as the James B. Lansing speakers used in Fender guitar amplifiers. I was told He was sued in federal court by Altec Lansing who said he could not use his own name because he had allowed it to become a part of a trademarked name Altec Lansing. I was told Jim lost the lawsuit or was somehow forced to stop using his own name and it was because of this that he had changed the name of his company to JBL.

I was also told that James B. Lansing committed suicide by car crash because he was depressed his JBL company was going deeper in debt and that he killed himself in 1949 because of this situation. Is this true? Can anyone confirm or deny these stories?

I was also informed that if Jim had lived only a few more years that he would have seen his company's turnaround and could have seen decades of growth and prosperity.

It seems to me that his association to Altec or "All Technical" was more or less for him to provide his knowledge to that company to help them create better speaker components for industrial and government purposes, while it seems to me that James Lansing was more interested in using his knowledge and skills at making speakers for music such as guitar speakers he designed and built for Fender as well as music reproduction speakers.

Am I on track here? I have never read a historical biography on James Lansing and only had limited contact with Mark Gander while I was at Danforth Sound. I use to call Mark about the guitar speakers more than anything else.

I worked for members of the Lynyrd Skynyrd band and inherited some of the band members own personal JBL speakers. Allen Collins once told me that all he had to do was call up JBL and order up whatever he wanted. Allen Collins loved using JBL E120's in many of his guitar amplifiers. I tried finding out more about this relationship but reached a stone wall at JBL. Mark was helpful but I guess this relationship was before his time.

I can see I will be enjoying this forum very much as I am a huge fan of James Lansing and have been all of my life. Every note of music I listen to comes through his work efforts...

KG

KentGriffith
08-28-2007, 07:06 AM
The molded Tangerine plug was surely much easier to manufacture than the Blackburn plug, which required forty passes with a mill cutter. The Lansing driver held the plug in place with a rolled lip on the center pole, a more secure arrangement than the CA glue used on the Tangerines!


This is a problem I am having with my tangerine phasing plugs... what glue is recommended for repairing these? I still have two more to do. Not sure what was used on my first set.

This forum is amazing. I am slowly learning so much more about Jim's brilliance.

KG

KentGriffith
08-28-2007, 07:23 AM
Again with the name Lansing, I am not sure that he realized that naming his new company "Lansing Sound Incorporated" would cause a stir. He was never known to be a great businessman. He did make the necessary changes immediately once he was contacted by Altec. Of course, having just spent five frustrating years at Altec, another possibility is that he realized what he was doing and wanted to tweak them just a bit.

Altec applied for a trademark for "Iconic" on October 20, 1947. I'm sure this was after the skirmish with Jim was over. I'm not sure whether this application covered the word itself or just the (somewhat strange) artwork.


I would like to learn more about this skirmish with Jim.

It would seem to me that with Jim being at Altec that he would be losing his ideas to the Altec corporation and they would profit from his ideas and designs and aggressively fight to protect them as their own. Wouldn't it seem natural for Jim to keep to himself his better ideas and to hold them back from Altec with the intent that later on when freed up that he would pursue his ideas outside of Altec? Could Altec have known of this and been suspicious of Jim's efforts with Altec? I have to wonder and speculate about this relationship Jim had with Altec.

It has been said here before that a non-engineer like Jim actually eclipsed the real engineers Altec had. It seems maybe Altec was needing the ideas Jim was dreaming up to help give them a boost, and judging from the amount of products Altec put out with his influence is obvious... but it just seemed to me that Jim would have kept any ideas that could have improved the Altec products to himself. Did Jim seek or apply for any patents upon leaving Altec? Just curious... That would show me he did come up with ideas during his Altec tenure, but kept them to himself instead of allowing them to become property of Altec as Jim did with his name. Speaking of which... why did Altec trademark his name with theirs? Was it because of his influence or was it part of the contract going in?

When I came along in audio in the 80's and worked for an Altec Lansing / JBL professional dealer it seemed both companies had gone in different directions. JBL was more music oriented while Altec was more industrial and government oriented. At least this is where the products seemed to be heading off in... JBL sold to musicians while Altec was going to NASA, government installations, shopping malls, airports, etc.

I did some service work at Orlando International Airport and they used the 811 horns for paging outside the terminals where the planes pulled up. I use the same horns at home for music. I don't find many JBL's heading off in that direction!

It just seemed to me Altec was kinda living off their old ideas and making new speakers from them, while Jim moved on and moved ahead with new ideas. So my perception is Jim was all about music and music reproduction while Altec was more after those government contracts and explosion-proof drivers and more industrial oriented. If so, I can see why Jim may have had a lot of frustration working for Altec and watching his ideas be used in directions he may not have cared about or wanted to pursue.

I have to wonder how much the situation with Altec bothered Jim and if it had anything to do with his suicide? Was Jim's hands tied by Altec? Was he being held down and held back and constantly under attack for what he was doing?

Does anyone know what it was that drove Jim over the edge to commit suicide? I heard the motivation was simply that his JBL company was going deeper in the red and in debt. Was he cracking under this load only or was Altec adding in heavily on his mind?

What was going on in Jim's personal life such as family?

Where can I find this information? Has it already been discussed here? Am I just that far behind? Are there any books available on this?

I am sorry if this is a sensitive subject to discuss, but as a life-long fan of JBL and Altec Lansing speakers I just gotta know more about the man himself and what made him tick.

KG

Steve Schell
09-03-2007, 06:45 PM
Hi Kent,

The details of the two skirmishes between Altec Lansing and JBL have been discussed most recently and perhaps most completely in the article that Don and I wrote for Stereo Sound magazine. You can find it at this link; I wrote the portion that covers Jim's life, and threw in just about every detail that we are aware of.

http://test.audioheritage.org/html/history/legacy/01_preface.htm

It is true that Jim had intended a new direction for his new company. He explained to Hal Cox in the late 1940s that he had previously brought fine quality sound to the motion picture theatre, and that he intended to do the same thing for people in their homes. He had other interests such as microphone design that he hoped to pursue, but as we now know that did not have a chance to happen.

Altec became upset that Jim began labeling his new products with the term "Iconic", and that he initially called his new company "Lansing Sound, Incorporated." These issues were quickly resolved and we have no evidence that Altec attempted to hassle Jim or limit his activities in any other way.

We have chosen not to focus on the details of Jim's death on this site, for a variety of reasons. They don't matter anyway. Jim suffered from a condition that might be diagnosed these days as Bipolar Disorder. People who knew him realized that his moods varied greatly. What was constant in him was a tremendous drive to design and build the best products possible. We have heard many first hand accounts of his working for days on end with little or no sleep when he was developing a new product or process. As a collector of his work, I am amazed at his prolific output in the late 1940s. Despite his tireless work however, his portion of ownership in the new company had shrunk to 30% before he died. This rapidly deteriorating situation must have reminded him of the fate that befell Lansing Mfg. Co. less than a decade earlier. It is such a shame that he did not live to participate in the success that JBL was to enjoy in the years to come. He did live long enough to see the huge success of much of the work he did while at Altec.

Kent, I certainly understand your desire to learn more about James B. Lansing the man. It was exactly the same curiosity that led to this site being founded over seven years ago.

CONVERGENCE
09-03-2007, 07:48 PM
QUOTE
__________________________________________________ _____________
When I came along in audio in the 80's and worked for an Altec Lansing / JBL professional dealer it seemed both companies had gone in different directions. JBL was more music oriented while Altec was more industrial and government oriented. At least this is where the products seemed to be heading off in... JBL sold to musicians while Altec was going to NASA, government installations, shopping malls, airports, etc
__________________________________________________ ___________

Altec lansing was in speaker ,microphones and electronics from the biginnings. They branched out into military sonar and other top secret inventions.

The fact that you saw multicell or sectoral horns at airports has no
significance as to the product marketing.The train station in Toronto had 1005 cells hanging facing down from the ceiling in 1971.

Altec speakers were designed for music and speech intelligibility.
You won't find that same efficiency dynamic range in other speakers.


cbs wrote an interresting piece on the ALTEC MODEL 19. THEY DID SOME TESTS IN AN ANECHOIC CHAMBER.
hERE ARE THE ESSENTIAL FINDINGS .

Quote from CBS technology centre.


The bass is somewhat on the robust side,although
nicely defined and free of boominess.

The middles have a touch of forwardness and the highs are clear and transparent,with a slight
mellowness that might be attributed to the rolloff
above about 12 khz.
But probably the most striking characteristic is
its stereo image which seems three dimensional
to the point of being detached from the speakers The center of the image seems to extend forward
between the 2 speakers and toward the listener rather than rearward beyond the plane of the speakers as is usually the case.

.............................