Anyone using 15w or less?

[clmrt]

I just managed to win an Ideal Innovations Classic 30, a 15wpc 6L6-based amp. It will drive either my JBL L5's or my ADS L400's, hopefully the L5's. I might give the EV 15TRX's a shot (duh - seems obvious) but they need cabinets built...:(

I have some reservations driving the 4-way L5's with 15w, even though they are rated at 90db, and the amp has 4/8/16 ohm taps.

Any opinions on how this might play out? I take delivery on Monday.

[X_X]

I love the charm of flea powered amps using the 2a3 and 300B- especially on the human voice and stringed instruments. I also like el84 based amps of diminished output. Many have beautiful voicing and the musical notes have real "weight" to them. I'm a musician and to my ears some of the little amps let none of the body of the instrument escape during playback. They preserve what has become important to me.

Aside from their obvious strengths, little amps remain....well...little. I often crave my music full throttle and I have yet to meet an amp with an output of 15W or so give me that heart racing OMG feeling. I know watts aren't the only factor in determining an amps ability to drive a speaker- but you talking about a 4way. That means a lot of passive components the amp will have to cut through. I think you will be unimpressed by the output of 15W in a 4way. You might be floored by 15W on a dual concentric 2way or even a single full range driver. just my opinion.

[Tom Brennan]

I have a Jolida EL84 amp of 12 wpc or so that I use with Altec Boleros and it does fine. I've also used the amp with Altec 605s and 9844s.

Clarity and tone are very good and dynamics are suffcient. No doubt though that some might run out of gas with low efficiency speakers or trying to get extreme output. But with high efficiency speakers the dynamics are good.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The First Watt is often the most important.

Enjoy

[clmrt]

Now that I've had some time to think about it, I recall the Infinity 360 story - many single-ended users love that speaker, and it's similar to the L5 in design (layman terms).

4-way
90-93db sensitivity

*edit - now that I check my facts, the 360 is a 3-way, 8 ohms vs the L5 4-way, 6 ohm. I know there's more to it than that, just trying to rationalize the situation I've gotten myself into. I need to relax and see what happens with the goods in hand instead of tapping away at this keyboard.


:banghead:

[clmrt]

I have a Jolida EL84 amp of 12 wpc or so that I use with Altec Boleros and it does fine. I've also used the amp with Altec 605s and 9844s.

Clarity and tone are very good and dynamics are suffcient. No doubt though that some might run out of gas with low efficiency speakers or trying to get extreme output. But with high efficiency speakers the dynamics are good.

There's a set of 890c's up locally (CL). I sent a request to the seller.

I had and liked the Seville 847A...

[Tom Brennan]

I use my Boleros kind'a mono---I use them for occasional hi-fi use but also to play my digital drums and piano through. It's surprising how well the Jolida and Boleros handle the job.

I'm listening to Maddonna through them now from the next room over.

The Boleros have excellent dynamics for a speaker their size and also excellent clarity and a robust tonal balance without a hint of "earwire". Much, MUCH better than the Klipsch Hereseys I used to use as small speakers.

[spkrman57]

45 SET - 1.8 watts
2A3 SET - 3 watts
300B SET - 7 watts
EL34 SE(triode strapped) - 6 watts

Ron

[porschedpm]

I'm using a Cary CAD-300SEI 15w/ch integrated amp to run a pair of 250Ti's (4 ways with a 14" woofer). The little tube amp does a commendable job driving these speakers. In my opinion, a tube system and the 250Ti's complement each other. That being said though, my system is in a small 10' x 10' office so it doesn't take much to fill the room with sound. Also, the bass control is probably not as good as could be had from an amplifier with 100w/ch or more. It's not at all bad, it's just that it could be better. For example, when I played the '1812 Overture' from the 'Eargle on Everest' CD through this system you could hear the cannons but they were just there-nothing spectacular about them. But when I played the same selection through the Performance Series PT800/PS1400 speakers (also with a 14" woofer) running through a 300w/ch McIntosh amp, you could feel the cannon shots as well as hear them. I'm sure I could get that extra 4 or 5% more performance out of the 250Ti's if I were to go with a bigger amp but I feel what little I give up in bass performance with the 15w/ch tube amp is more than made up with that warm tube sound. Sure, I could bi-amp the 250Ti's or get a subwoofer but I don't feel I'm missing that much to justify the extra expense. Of course, that's a subjective decision.

[Ducatista47]

The key for my system is to biamp. I audition whatever I can get hold of on the 2245's of my 4345 four ways. The top is always my dimmunitive EL84 Grommes amp, usually at the 1.8 watts triode output selection. To my ears, the quality of this amp outweighs any other considerations. And no, I don't usually play loud enough to rattle dishes.

At a stated 98dB/watt, the top of the 4345's are loud with the little tubes driving. I'm actually getting better efficiency than that. My stock crossovers have been way improved with caps and circuit simplification.

To no one in particular ;), any 4345 or 250Ti system should, I think, benefit hugely from biamping, especially into small tube sound. You can't beat it with a stick. It's all about the quality and naturalness of the sound. Biamping alone turned my monitors into different, vastly improved speakers.

Clark in Peoria

[hjames]

The key for my system is to biamp. I audition whatever I can get hold of on the 2245's of my 4345 four ways. The top is always my dimmunitive EL84 Grommes amp, usually at the 1.8 watts triode output selection. To my ears, the quality of this amp outweighs any other considerations. And no, I don't usually play loud enough to rattle dishes.

At a stated 98dB/watt, the top of the 4345's are loud with the little tubes driving. I'm actually getting better efficiency than that. My stock crossovers have been way improved with caps and circuit simplification.

To no one in particular ;), any 4345 or 250Ti system should, I think, benefit hugely from biamping, especially into small tube sound. You can't beat it with a stick. It's all about the quality and naturalness of the sound. Biamping alone turned my monitors into different, vastly improved speakers.

Clark in Peoria

Always trying to learn ....

So - you run the top on that amp, meaning the 2121, the LE85 and the 2405 slot all 3 on that tube amp? What do you run the 2245s with?

[Ducatista47]

Always trying to learn ....

So - you run the top on that amp, meaning the 2121, the LE85 and the 2405 slot all 3 on that tube amp? What do you run the 2245s with?

Hi, Heather:)

Yes indeed, when a big speaker is biamped, usually it is just the big woofer that is separated out. In the case of the 4345, the 2245 18" qualifies as the big woofer :D. The other transducers are actually called 2122H, 2421B (in my early example) and the 2405. It took me forever to remember even a few of the "pro" numbers when I first found this site. (2420 = LE85, etc.)

Until a few days ago I was running the low end with a JoLida 502B 60 watt tube amp. A tube failed, so until I can afford a replacement I have pressed a UREI 300 watt solid state unit into service. (I have used this unit before.) While the power is overkill, you can't have too much low end reserve power, I like to say.

The sound is very different with monster solid state with high damping factor vs natural sounding tube power, but while I have a distinct preference I am always willing to try new things. As long as I can keep the old stuff just in case...

Clark

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have a small SS 15 watt JL Hood amp somewhere at home.

Originally designed in 1969 to mimick the Williamson Tube amp.

Fairly low damping factor like the small tube amps but otherwise a nice alternative to tubes.

[clmrt]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

250's, eh?

Monday afternoon it shall begin.

[hjames]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

250's, eh?

Monday afternoon it shall begin.

If you hadn't read it lately, here's what Greg Timbers said in his 4345 comments about the 250s

Before closing I should comment briefly about the 250 - 4345 comparison. Simply put, I prefer a 250. I like the bass quality of the LE14 woofer. Alway have and always will. The 2245 when used as a dedicated sub is one of the best sounding woofers ever. It has an amazing blend of speed, pitch and punch. So does the 14" but the 18" is better. Unfortunately the 18" dislike for passive networks hurts it more than the 14" is hurt by a passive network. I think the mid and high range on the 250 is smoother and much more open however the 4345 wins by a bunch in terms of effortless dynamic sound. I have made all of the above changes to 250 systems (except for separate amp on UHF) and the improvement is huge. I have not done so on the 4345 but I suspect that that system will benefit from theses changes more than a 250 would. If both systems were tweaked out to about the same level, I suspect it would be very hard to come up with a clear overall winner, but I think I might lean towards the 4345 as having the greater potential.

The improvements he mentions? Here's a shorthand version of "the list":
Get rid of the bi-amp switch. Hardwire it in which ever mode you want it. The switch is not that great.
If you can work out bi-amping do so.

The network components should be updated and this isn't easy. All the capacitors should be polypropylene and you would want to use air core inductors where ever possible. I would suggest leaving them alone unless you are really good at this stuff.
If you can swing it, go to a biased network. The difference is unbelievable.
The L-pads aren't so hot either, particularly after all of these years. Once you have your preferred balance, it is fairly easy to measure each leg of the L-pad and replace it with fixed resistors.Or just read the whole darned thing directly here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10613

[Ian Mackenzie]

Heather,

I think you need rest from those reference threads..your not preaching to the Choir it was all done and well and truly dusted some years go.

Clark will voucher for the improvements..cocked and loaded...but we do appreicate your efforts.

In the case of these very little nice amps I would stay clear of biamping with a barge pole unless you really need to go there. All but a very select few active crossovers destroy the fine tonality of these specialist audiophile amps. I would stick with a 2 way classic.

One of big Urei monitors or a worked 604 8G would be my choice with a 300B..nice. A D5500 Everest would be very interesting.

Any pics of that amp clmrt

[rs237]

One of big Urei monitors or a worked 604 8G would be my choice with a 300B..nice. A D5500 Everest would be very interesting.

Any pics of that amp clmrt


Hello

or the Hartsfield :). I think a small Tubeamp have only a very small damping factor. Thus it cannot control large Woofer with heavy diaphragm and soft diaphragm suspension so well.

regards

juergen

[clmrt]

Heather,

I think you need rest from those reference threads..your not preaching to the Choir it was all done and well and truely dusted some years go.

Clark will voucher for the improvements..cocked and loaded...but we do appreicate your efforts.

In the case of these very little nice amps I would stay clear of biamping with a barge pole unless you really need to go there. All but a very select few active crossovers destroy the fine tonality of these specialist audiophile amps. I would stick with a 2 way classic.

One of big Urei monitors or a worked 604 8G would be my choice with a 300B..nice. A D5500 Everest would be very interesting.

Any pics of that amp clmrt

http://www.idealinnovations.biz/modelsprices.htm

Here's the blurb. Stereo models, Classic 30. I got mine locally on Ebay for $260. I believe it is two years old and can use 6L6 and KT66's, but I'll run it stock until I get comfortable with it.

My only previous tube experience was an 8wpc Allied 6BM8 receiver that was never 100%, even after "refurb".

[hjames]

http://www.idealinnovations.biz/modelsprices.htm

Here's the blurb. Stereo models, Classic 30. I got mine locally on Ebay for $260. I believe it is two years old and can use 6L6 and KT66's, but I'll run it stock until I get comfortable with it.

My only previous tube experience was an 8wpc Allied 6BM8 receiver that was never 100%, even after "refurb".

So what are you using as an active crossover to split the bands?

[clmrt]

I've no intention to bi-amp. I am running it full-range and don't expect to top 95db. Not my habit.

I do have a Hsu I could incorporate at the speaker level, but I'm not sure if the amp in the Hsu has a hi-pass filter or not.

My speaker options are :

L5

ADS L810
ADS L400
*These are fronts / rears in my HT and not real candidates unless they absolutely smoke the others)

NHT SuperZero
EV 15TRX (again, no real cabs at this time)

HSU STF-1

I imagine I'll run each speaker just because I can, but I hope some combo beats the current champ, The L5 / HK PA2200 combo. (IE, I hope the tubes / L5 combo works well.)

Pre is an NAD 1130.

[SUPERBEE]

The First Watt is often the most important.

Enjoy


Somewhere I heard......

"The first watt is the deepest"

At least I think I did.

[jim campbell]

well there is the single ended triode crowd and im sure they have some valid arguments ..............until you want to turn it up.........then ya gotta move some air,and that takes power.solid state woof of at least a hundred watts or so and your tube 15 w for mid/hi would probably work tho.........

[clmrt]

So far so good. Plays quite nicely with the L5's, worries banished.