2-ways

[89-300ce]

Most of the threads I've searched are people matching an already owned component for a two way. In my case I have nothing. If I where to assemble a large altec/jbl based two way from components with an emphasis on clarity and extention what should I use? There are no restrictions on cabinet size.

Thanks

[louped garouv]

http://mypages.iparenting.com/webs/racerxtreme/A1X.jpg

Here's a pretty large Altec two way system....

[89-300ce]

Ok. Ok.
By large I was thinking of a single 14" - 19" woofer based system.
I forgot where I was.

[Robh3606]

Hello

Thinking JBL For the woofer the one that comes to mind would be a 2235. It gives you good lowend with a high crossover point up to 1K. Le-14h-1 or -3 would be nice but they are not readilly available. You can get any number of cores with new cone kits and have essentially brand new drivers for about $500.

Rob:)

[Tom Brennan]

I'd clone an Altec Model Nineteen.

Good choice of compromises and good extension on both ends.

I figure they moved the crossover up from the 500-800hz of earlier Altecs to 1200hz so there wouldn't be as much distortion with the more extended highs.

Use a 416-8B woofer, 802-G or 902 compression driver and the 811B horn. And build the right crossover, that's a key element as the crossover EQs the system. Plans for the Nineteen crossover are easily available online.

[Zilch]

What Rob said, though of late, I'd spend the additional $100 to work with a new pair of LE14H-3 for a more modest-sized outcome, and arguably better response in the region of 1 kHz.

For HF, it's PT Waveguides and any one of a variety of compression drivers, depanding upon budget and availability.

http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/PT_WaveGuide.pdf

Mega-system? 2235H in 5 cuft (2507) plus 2352 horn on top, 2435HPL or 2452H-SL compression drivers.

Those horns too big? Look at 2381, which will fit in the box with the woofer.

[Tom's doin' the Time Warp, apparently.... ;) ]

[89-300ce]

I may have access to 14" JBL's. Are there many different models of 14's?
Which would be more acurate between the le14 based system and the 2235 based system?

Thank you.

[lfh]

See this post

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=166573&postcount=25

[89-300ce]

I'd like to stay below $1.5k for the drivers. I'd be happy if it cost less than that. There has to be a point of diminishing returns right?

[Thom]

You have to admit the A1 is impressive though. Just imagine if it actually works.

[Tom Brennan]

"[Tom's doin' the Time Warp, apparently.... ;) ]"

Nineteens are first-rate 2-ways. I never heard anything one-box-turnkey I liked better and I've heard alot. If I liked something better I'd buy it. Simple enough.

[Earl K]

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24942&stc=1&d=1178718566

- Here's a "beefy" look that I happen to like .

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24944&stc=1&d=1178718596

- That Altec 411a woofer is very hard to come by ( yes it's a 15" ) / though a JBL ME150H would be a reasonable standin ( IMO ) / you'll want to port the cabinet if you use the ME150H . ( The ME150H can be purchased direct from Harman US by American citizens only, for @ $460.00 ea. )
- The Altec 511b horn you see usually has a 1" exit driver ( 802-8G or 902-8b ) attached to it .
- I would recommend going with a bigger driver. Therefore, find a pair of Altec 288-8K drivers ( local to where you live , because they are 30 lbs a piece ). Put new GPA diaphragms into whatever drivers you find. Adapt the 511b horn ( by cutting off a piece of the entry throat ) into a 1.4" entry type ( see my last set of pics ).
- Build some custom passive horn EQ for the driver-horn combo / and then have the ME150H cross in around 700 hz ( passively or electronically ) .

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/pro-systems/9846-8a/page02.jpg

PS - ( If you don't have any test gear and have no intentions of investing > $500.00 into the necessary equipment / build a "clone" of some known entity like the Model 19 or a JBL 4430 .
- "Cloning" means you won't have to bother doing all the necessary research into a very convoluted topic ).

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2326&stc=1&d=1081328628

BTW: I think that $1000.00 ( minimum ) per box , for components, is a lot more realistic ( I personally don't see "diminishing" returns coming into play until @ 10,000.00 has been spent ).

[lfh]

I'd like to stay below $1.5k for the drivers. I'd be happy if it cost less than that. There has to be a point of diminishing returns right?

OK. I suggest listening to a pair of 4430:s before hacking away (see Earl's remark above).

[89-300ce]

Thank you. That is an incredible amount of information to digest. I think a 4338 based system as per lfh's post is out of the question.


Which in your opinion would be the easiest to find and least difficult to get sorted
JBL LE14H-3 + waveguide
JBL ME150H + Altec 511b
JBL 2235H + JBL 2352


I'm now a little concerned about the skill required to integrate the system. Have crossovers been figured out for these combinations?

Altec 19's vs. 4430's?

For a guy who likes to listen, and would consider building only to be able to afford something listenable, could the cost of buying/shipping a complete speaker be justified by a relatively fixed resale value? Sort of as an investment.
Just for arguments sake. :D

[louped garouv]

I'm now a little concerned about the skill required to integrate the system. Have crossovers been figured out for these combinations?

Altec 19's vs. 4430's?

For a guy who likes to listen, and would consider building only to be able to afford something listenable, could the cost of buying/shipping a complete speaker be justified by a relatively fixed resale value? Sort of as an investment.
Just for arguments sake. :D

The M19 crossover is pretty well documented & i suspect the 4430's is as well....

buying/shipping large speakers gets pretty expensive pretty quick as i am sure you can imagine...

if you want originals, it is very worthwile IMO to pick them up if you can.... I had a gentleman drive from near the coast of OR to the Denver area to pick up his Model 19s...

from what i have seen, the clones do not tend to get the resale value that the original units get, even if they are very well built....

[4313B]

from what i have seen, the clones do not tend to get the resale value that the original units get, even if they are very well built....Yeah, that seems to be true which is why we end up parting alot of this stuff out. Fortunately some of us couldn't care less about resale value since we are in it for the components and what we can do with them. Frankly, many of us can build a better loudspeaker than Sales or Marketing can. There are exceptions of course and I'm sure they vary from person to person.

[89-300ce]

The M19 crossover is pretty well documented & i suspect the 4430's is as well....



I'm sorry but I didn't phrase my question very well. Is there crossover information available for the following combinations?
JBL LE14H-3 + waveguide
JBL ME150H + Altec 511b
JBL 2235H + JBL 2352


Are either the Altec 19's or JBL 4430's considered collectable if a person where to source some originals?

Thanks

[4313B]

Is there crossover information available for the following combinations?
JBL LE14H-3 + waveguide
JBL ME150H + Altec 511b
JBL 2235H + JBL 2352Wow... that's alot to ask of someone...

Maybe Zilch has the time to whip it all up for you.

[89-300ce]

Yeah, that seems to be true which is why we end up parting alot of this stuff out. Fortunately some of us couldn't care less about resale value since we are in it for the components and what we can do with them. Frankly, many of us can build a better loudspeaker than Sales or Marketing can. There are exceptions of course and I'm sure they vary from person to person.


That's my problem. I'm certain that _I_ couldn't build a better loudspeaker than either Altec or JBL so I'm looking for guidance from those who can. I would never consider trying to integrate two components from scratch, (don't have the knowledge/experience), but I can solder, saw, and e-bay OK.

Jorg

[89-300ce]

Wow... that's alot to ask of someone...

Maybe Zilch has the time to whip it all up for you.


Sorry, It's not my intent to have someone hand me the information. I'm just wondering if these combinations have been built before and if so, which where the easiest or most successfull. I'm just at the stage where I'm trying to evaluate the available options. Build my own ( likelyhood of success? ) vs. trying to aquire a factory speaker.

Jorg

[4313B]

Ok. Maybe you can partner up with some people and come up with a new project to post about. I think you should give the DIY genre a go.

[Zilch]

Is there crossover information available for the following combinations?

JBL LE14H-3 + waveguide
JBL ME150H + Altec 511b
JBL 2235H + JBL 2352

Crossover "guidance" is available for all of them. I've built all three (sans ME150H, tho,) and they're posted in these forums.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=12960&stc=1&d=1139807745

You'll need some measurement gear and a willingness to get a little deeper into design to succeed. Others pay far more and better attention to system packaging than me, typically.


Are either the Altec 19's or JBL 4430's considered collectable if a person where to source some originals?Yes, both are collectable, and both priced in the $1000 - $1500 range. If financial return on investment is a prime consideration, you'll do that.

On the other hand, if fun, learning, and the satisfaction of DIY is prime, you can build as good or, arguably, better, yourself.

There's an intermediate approach, already mentioned, more closely to "clone," but even there, you can mix and match. For example, as I have recently done, put LE14H-1 or H-3 (or LE14A, even,) in an appropriately tuned box, mount BMS 4552 compression drivers on Altec 811b or 511b horns, and build Altec 846B crossovers plus a simple compensation filter to run them, or Model 19 crossovers. Such a system likely exceeds stock Altec Model 19 performance.

At the true "clone" level, 4430s are easy, but you'll probably invest as much in acquiring the components alone as buying a used pair complete locally, so it's largely a matter of your personal desires and motivation....

[lfh]

For a guy who likes to listen, and would consider building only to be able to afford something listenable

If this is the rationale for DIY, I suggest playing it safe and build an exact clone of a well documented factory system your choice.

To design or modify a speaker is a lot more complicated than it might appear (assuming "good" results), and it's most definitely neither cost nor time effective: You need to invest in books, SW, measurement equipment -- and chances are you'll end up building a couple of prototypes, trying out various driver combinations, crossover designs and so on before you're happy.

If you follow a well known and accepted path closely, likelyhood of success is very high. If you get the design bug, there's always room for improvements later on.

BTW, here, for the sake of discussion ;) are two more "Altec/JBL 2-ways":

Altec VOTT A7 (cabinet drawing) (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1960's-lf-design/page14.jpg)

JBL LSR 6328P (turn-key solution) (http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/LSR6300/lsr6328p.html)

[89-300ce]

Sage advice. I'm leaning to either buy Altec19's or try building a close clone like Zilch's LE14H/511b suggestion.

It sounds like I can't go wrong with the Altec 511b horn as it seems to integrate with the JBL LE14H series, Altec 808-8a, Altec 411a, and JBL ME150H. Would it work with a JBL 2235 or the Altec 416-8b from the model 19?

Jorg

[louped garouv]

if you decide to go with the 511B horns, be aware that it seems to be common practice to dampen the horns to help eliminate them ringing "like a cowbell"

[Robh3606]

If this is the rationale for DIY, I suggest playing it safe and build an exact clone of a well documented factory system your choice.


Yes or at the very least have a baseline speaker pair there so you can A+B so you have a live reference. Remember it's not just on the axis frequency response. Your power response will effect what you hear as well. If you do clone build it exactly as the original with the same driver spacing, crossover and box volumes and baffle so you can see how it was originally voiced. Change any of those and it will effect how it sounds. In any case have fun.

Rob:)

[89-300ce]

Dampen as in apply some kind of acoustic mastic to the outside of the horn? It's a result of the cast aluminum? Is it a problem even at moderate volumes?

Jorg

[Zilch]

It sounds like I can't go wrong with the Altec 511b horn as it seems to integrate with the JBL LE14H series, Altec 808-8a, Altec 411a, and JBL ME150H. Would it work with a JBL 2235 or the Altec 416-8b from the model 19?Well, here we go, obviously.

I have never worked with Altec woofers, but ran the box modeling calculations for a member here and found that the Model 19 volume and tuning was not optimum for that driver. SO, in the course of "cloning" model 19, I'd be doing prototyping and testing before settling on a final alignment.

However, I HAVE worked with Altec 1" compression drivers recently, and can say, unequivocally, that I would not use them. My tired old JBL LE85s perform better than any of those submitted for evaluation in a recent upgrade collaboration project here, including a pair fresh from refurbishing by Great Plains Audio:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=160605&#post160605

Despite their disappointing performance in measurements, however, there are Altec fans who swear they're the best-sounding drivers ever produced, bar none. Tweakers each have their own formulas for coaxing what they believe to be the best performance from them, including scouring the earth for vintage diaphragm types that are no longer produced by anyone.

In my view, frankly, they're most appropriately used for, well, let's say, other "passive" purposes. I'd build with drivers supported by current manufacture unless there was some compelling reason (to me) to do otherwise. Your mileage may vary, of course, but the point is, you're going to have to be prepared to evaluate some of these options yourself to achieve an optimum outcome.

I do like the 511B horn, but it's a beast, and there are time-alignment issues to be addressed in using them. Fortunately, I have an active crossover with adjustable delay for that purpose. Does it ring? Yes, but only when excited by high SPL, or if I clang the bell with something, and that's not even mounted to or in an enclosure. Of course, there are users who will also tell you that 511B ONLY performs well if it's NOT enclosed, so be prepared to make THAT determination for yourself, as well..... ;)

[89-300ce]

I can't pretend to understand half the stuff that's in that thread.
Whoosh!

BMS 4552 compresion drivers?
http://www.woodhorn.com/BMS/bms_4552nd.htm
I can't deny that the price looks very good.
Do they require surgery like adapting Altec 288-8K drivers? I have a friend who can do machine work but it would be nice not to cut up the horns.

I like the "look" of the 511b and only play to moderate volume. Nothing loud by any means.

Jorg

[Zilch]

Bolts directly on uisng metric hardware.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=168025&postcount=805

[89-300ce]

That's one hell of a thread. I think I'm learning things.
How would those drivers work on Barcelonas?

Jorg

[Zilch]

Nope. Barcelona's 500 Hz. 4552 don't play that.... :no:

See this new post re: Altec drivers/diaphragms measured today:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=171640&postcount=812

[89-300ce]

O.K.
4552 crosses at 1200hz?
Other than LE14H what LF drivers go there?
Would using the Altec 288-8K drivers cross lower and thus allow more flexibility, or does that open up a whole new can of worms?
I notice that no one suggested 075's. Is this a horn preference or is the 075 more suitable to 3-ways?

Jorg

[louped garouv]

the 075 is more of an ultra high frequency (relatively speaking) device, whereas the other drivers mentioned are more upper midrange devices...

[Zilch]

4552 crosses at 1200hz?Well, it will "play" down to 800 Hz, but that's a determination you'll have to make for yourself. I don't use it below 1 kHz.


Other than LE14H what LF drivers go there?Anything that will play to your liking in the 1 kHz region and also provide extended bass response. Altec Model 19 is crossed at 1200 Hz.


Would using the Altec 288-8K drivers cross lower and thus allow more flexibility, or does that open up a whole new can of worms?Yes, and yes. You're locked into an oddball throat diameter on a custom/scarce horn. If you work with 1" drivers instead, you retain significant flexibility in driver and horn options.


I notice that no one suggested 075's. Is this a horn preference or is the 075 more suitable to 3-ways?That's a UHF driver for 3-way, and just about nobody's favorite. 077 is generally preferred for that, crossed at 8 kHz or above, but I'd look to more contemporary alternatives if it came to that.

[89-300ce]

It looks like I'm getting some LE14H cores given to me so if they are suitable I'll get them reconed and use them.

The time alignement issues are a result of the horn driver being so far back? Can a cabinet like

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1960's-lf-design/page14.jpg

solve that using the 14's? Build it narrow and deep and recess the LF driver?

Jorg

PS.
I can also get either an 075 or 077 down the road. Is it worth adding if I use a 4552 driver on the horn?

[Zilch]

That's a bass horn, and yes it may mitigate the time alignment problem.

It's an entirely different technology and has it's own set of difficulties and compromises.

LE14x won't work like that, no.

You will not likely need a UHF driver with a BMS driver, but you may want to try the combination ultimately.

[89-300ce]

One more question.
How high would a sensible person bid on some 511b's without drivers in average condition? I wouldn't be doing any building until next winter so I have time to miss a few bids.

Thanks again

Jorg

[louped garouv]

they seem to hover right around $100,
sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less

[Tom Brennan]

Jammin Jersey wants $150 each for 511 greenies in what they claim are like new condition. Blackies are cheaper, $125 I think.

[John]

Are either the Altec 19's or JBL 4430's considered collectable if a person where to source some originals?

Thanks

Some guys seem to think so, but even thou I own both I like to think of myself as being an owner of these speaker systems and I enjoy listening to music with them.

By the way where in Canada are you located?

[JBLRaiser]

if you decide to go with the 511B horns, be aware that it seems to be common practice to dampen the horns to help eliminate them ringing "like a cowbell"

If they are screwed down or in a box, I've not heard any ringing. I've got 811's in my 19's and no ringing yet. No foam around the opening either.

[John]

If they are screwed down or in a box, I've not heard any ringing. I've got 811's in my 19's and no ringing yet. No foam around the opening either.

Having the horns screwed to a baffle will reduce the ringing ,but it is still there but at a reduced amount. This slight ringing could be adding to the sound that all the 19 owners seem to enjoy???;)

[Tom Brennan]

"Having the horns screwed to a baffle will reduce the ringing ,but it is still there but at a reduced amount."

So you say.

I dunno, I don't hear any difference with the 811 screwed to the baffle and screwed and damped with non hardening modeling clay. I wonder if the energy from the driver is sufficient to excite the horn ringing in the first place, especially with the horn mounted to a baffle and only running above 1200hz as in the Nineteen.

[JBLRaiser]

Having the horns screwed to a baffle will reduce the ringing ,but it is still there but at a reduced amount. This slight ringing could be adding to the sound that all the 19 owners seem to enjoy???;)

to measure this ringing? Now you've got my interest. I'm all ears.:D

[Robh3606]

to measure this ringing? Now you've got my interest. I'm all ears.:D


If there is any significant ringing all you have to do is a slow sine sweep through the passband. That will excite whatever modes the horn has. You may also want to try the woofers upper range as well as enough energy could be coupled through the enclosure.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

Impulse.

You can hear it continue after the signal has shut off.

[JBLRaiser]

Impulse.

You can hear it continue after the signal has shut off.

I'll take them to my audio guru next week for checking. :bouncy:

[Zilch]

I'll take them to my audio guru next week for checking. :bouncy:Your CD stop button may provide an indication.

That's pretty abrupt.... :p

[sourceoneaudio]

This is something I have been very curious about. I have wondered what the resonant frequency of the 811B horn is. Since it is metal, and thin I have always figured it creates its own frequency while music is being played through it via whatever driver, and x-over point used. ??? So this adds something, is it good or bad? I would assume bad :dont-know , since we are not listening to a crystal glass with water in it. I'm also assuming the foam around the horn was added later due to this issue to help dampen, since the 846A did not come with foam, but the B's and the 19's did.

What is the frequency?


Jeff
J/S-S1A :D

[Zilch]

Clanging the bell of 811 primarily excites 1.1 and 1.4 kHz on the RTA, plus a bunch of lesser resonances either side of them. A major third, approximately?

511, it's 700 and 900 Hz, primarily, plus others. A sharp third? Not pretty, in any case.

Thunking their bodies, it's broadband around those frequencies.

I suppose I could measure it more precisely, another time.

You want the curves, right...? :p

[Tom Brennan]

"I'm also assuming the foam around the horn was added later due to this issue to help dampen, since the 846A did not come with foam, but the B's and the 19's did. "


I think the foam was a dispersion control thing. Altec generally damped their horns with a spray on substance, they also had gizmos that went in the lips of the 511E. Note that the E used the large format driver, the 1" 511B didn't use the lip dampers though Altec later didn't weld the vanes and instead filled the gaps with rubber.

It would be interesting if someone who likes to measure things were to see if and when the horn is excited when being played and if excited how far down in level from the signal the resonance is.

[sourceoneaudio]

Good job Mr. Zilch. :applaud:


I guess one would have to run a specific Altec driver in a wood horn that is a reproduction/duplicate of the metal one, then run it in a factory metal horn to see the affected areas on a curve. ?

ADDED: Or use my idea in the below post, and do a test with Dynamat, with and without test.


Jeff
J/S-S1A :D

[89-300ce]

By the way where in Canada are you located?

Sorry, I was away for the weekend. I'm in Winnipeg too.

Jorg

[89-300ce]

Do you think a rubberized undercoat sprayed inside and outside would work to eliminate ringing. It would add damping and mass and shouldn't affect the shape of the horn. It would look like a textured matte finish. Being aluminum the horn could be chemicaly stripped clean if it didn't work out.

Jorg

[sourceoneaudio]

Do you think a rubberized undercoat sprayed inside and outside would work to eliminate ringing. It would add damping and mass and shouldn't affect the shape of the horn. It would look like a textured matte finish. Being aluminum the horn could be chemicaly stripped clean if it didn't work out.

Jorg

Jorg,
I would not spray inside for sure, for this would affect the dispersion pattern of the horn in a big way.
I would say outside would work, but I think I would not use undercoat I would use couple pieces of Dynamat. That stuff kills everything. Thing is with Dynamat you do not have to cover the whole horn/area, couple of pieces on the outside on the large flat areas should do the trick.

http://www.dynamat.com/



Jeff
J/S-S1A :D

[89-300ce]

I didn't realize that they where that sensitive on the inside. I was thinking of a uniform coat no thicker than 1/16".

I'm having second thoughts on the 511b's regarding packaging and time alignment issues. Would it be smarter to use a PT waveguide horn and appropriate driver in a narrow cabinet just wide enough to fit the LE14A?
Does this combination give away a lot in sound quality vs. the LE14A/511b/4552 ?

I'm thinking that the 511b's would have to be on a sliding mount above the LF cabinet to extend them forward for critical listening. A waveguide is so small and short it could fit right into the cabinet.

Jorg

[4313B]

Just put the horns in their own package separate from the LF transducers. Pack their modules with fiberglass if you think they need it.

As for the waveguides they should be sufficiently cheap for you to try a pair and see what you think. Who knows, you might actually like them in your environment.

[Zilch]

Would it be smarter to use a PT waveguide horn and appropriate driver in a narrow cabinet just wide enough to fit the LE14A?PT waveguides are 1.5" throat.

Another member is assembling what you suggest right now. I suspect it'll be 30 to 60 days before the project is complete.

LE14x, PT-F95HF, BMS 4555.

There are other PT dispersion pattern and format options, and alternative JBL compression drivers available.

PTs are shallow enough to achieve physical time alignment, yes....

[89-300ce]

Waveguides require equalization? Is this difficult? More difficult than compensating for the time alignment issues of the 511b? Would one of these horns theoreticaly image better than the other?

Jorg

[Zilch]

Every compression driver + constant-directivity waveguide/horn combination requires specific compensation. Some are easier than others. 511 also requires it, even without considering time alignment.

The only way I know to really address that issue is with active delay on the woofer....

[89-300ce]

OK. So if I build an Altec 846B or model 19 crossovers I will have proper compensation for the horn. Time alignment I can achieve by physicaly moving the horn forward in relation to the woofer for critical listening. I have room to make this possible. I can investigate an electronic alignment later. This should require the least amount of "skill" on my part. I would try to build the box based on your comment, "My "standard" LE14 box is Citation 7.4 at 3.38 cuft, tuned to ~29 Hz with stock 4" dia. x 8" deep port."

This should get me up and running. Unless I'm way off base here I think I will start the bidding.

Jorg

[Earl K]

It looks like I'm getting some LE14H cores given to me so if they are suitable I'll get them reconed and use them.

This should get me up and running. Unless I'm way off base here I think I will start the bidding.



Jorg,

Have you determined whether or not you can obtain ( and afford ) two, le14H recone kits ( or the H-1 variety ) ?

:)

[89-300ce]

I've found this link
http://www.speakerrepair.com/ocsrepairprice.html

that lists

14" LE14A Original (White Cone) 244.00
14" LE14A Aftermarket (White Cone) 145.00

Let me guess, the aftermarkets are no good?

Jorg

[Zilch]

Seems silly to pay $244 to recone LE14A when you can buy new LE14H-1 or H-3 for ~$300.

I believe Citation 7.4 is 3.48 cuft. 3.38 may be a typo. Use "Search" to track it down. In any case, ~3.5 cuft tuned to ~30 Hz will work.

[Earl K]

14" LE14A Original (White Cone) 244.00
14" LE14A Aftermarket (White Cone) 145.00

Let me guess, the aftermarkets are no good?

- I wouldn't go the American recone route / you do realize you need to send those le14h baskets into the reconer for the recone work to be done ?
- This means paying twice for shipping ( check out UPS rates from Winnipeg to California & back for a reality check ) as well having the product clear customs each way ( this means paying UPS to do the paper-work ). $$$

- Truthfully, I don't know anything about Orange Countys' aftermarket kits.
- I know they're experienced enough to create a good facsimile / though in reality they're just as likely to be taking advantage of JBLs' $ 100.00 "nuisance" fee that I see built into the price for JBLs' "legacy-product" cone kits .

- Since they have convienantly omitted any mention of maintaining JBLs' TS parameters with their aftermarket wannabe kits, I figure they're just making it up as they go, hoping the "budget" buyer won't mind.
- Now if you don't know what TS parameters are , I strongly suggest you buy "off the shelf" / "over the counter" / "ready made speakers" like 4430s or Model 19s / because DIYing your own contruct is going to be a very long haul for you .

:)

[89-300ce]

- Now if you don't know what TS parameters are , I strongly suggest you buy "off the shelf" / "over the counter" / "ready made speakers" like 4430s or Model 19s / because DIYing your own contruct is going to be a very long haul for you .

:)

Advice noted, but too late. I'm now the proud owner of some 511b horns.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Now I need to determine the rest of the components while sticking to the close clone concept.

Unless directed otherwise I'd like to stick to JBL LF drivers because I do like the punchy sound I've heard from some of their 15's. Not clear on the model numbers of what I've heard though.

Does anyone sell some genuine JBL le14 recone kits?
I've searched the JBL sites but can't find any info on ME150H, but these would necessitate custom crossovers?

I guess I have to determine if I'm going to use the BMS 4555 driver as that limits my crossover to 1000-1200Hz, which then requires an LE14x type LF driver (or alternate suggestion?). The price on the BMS 4555 is an incentive here.

If I cross lower I have a wider variety of LF drivers I can use. Barcelonas are crossed at 500Hz which precludes the BMS 4555 but should make the crossover less audible?

As long as I base my LF driver selection on an Altec crossover designed for the 511b I should be fine?

Since this is such a large horn is there an 18" driver that could be used? This is a real strech I know.

I'm brimming with questions.:bouncy:

Jorg

[Earl K]

Jorg,

- Here's todays' pricing on the ME150H woofers ( part # 317294-001 ). This woofer was used in the 2-way S3100 speaker and the 4-way 4344 mkII .

- Only Americans have access to Harman online purchases / so you are SFOL unless you have US based friends who will make the purchase for you as proxies .
- Even then, I'm now very reluctant to encourage people to buy direct from Harman for two reasons.

(i) Apparently ( according to some recent posts ), Harman has lost the capacity to properly package heavy ( but delicate ) items such as woofers. Thirty lb woofers need special care so that they can withstand the vigors of shipping ( inflicted by the careless gorillas at UPS ).
(ii) Harman uses these careless gorillas ( UPS ) as their shipper.

- All in all , a recipe for disappointment for the buyer .


Now I need to determine the rest of the components while sticking to the close clone concept.

If you buy BMS drivers / Zilch may lend a helping hand since he is recently keen on the product .

- Be aware, the clone concept falls apart with the purchase of BMS drivers / it now becomes a "Custom" design. As such, expect to compensate someone for their time .

- HF compensation networks for JBLs' 2426H driver abound ( though not on the 511b ). Don't buy 2425J or 2426J models unless you are biamping . I'd like to recommend Altec 902-8B ( or GPAs' version ) as 1" drivers / but their slightly higher impedance can pose a level matching problem ( if you're after every db of UHF that a compensation circuit can squeeze from a driver ) .

- The JBL 2235H or 2234H are very good choices for a DIY project ( as has been pointed out since early in this thread ).
- 2234H woofers are still avalaible for purchase from JBL ProParts or a JBL dealer I assume .
- They list for $ 380. USD / I'm not sure if they are available up here in Canada .
- As has been mentioned earlier , 2225H woofers can be reconed into 2234(s) or 2235(s) . Cdn price is around $ 270.00 per kit installed ( do a search for LF memeber "remusr" to track down more specific info ).

- You can't really go very wrong building a 4.5 cu' enclosure ( when using JBL woofers ) and tuning it somewhere into the low 30's ( such as 32 hz ).

[4313B]

Just a note on the ME150HS price. MSRP is $449 and Harman sells it off their website for $415. I mentioned this practice in another post the other day.

(i) Apparently ( according to some recent posts ), Harman has lost the capacity to properly package heavy ( but delicate ) items such as woofers. Thirty lb woofers need special care so that they can withstand the vigors of shipping ( inflicted by the careless gorillas at UPS ).
(ii) Harman uses these careless gorillas ( UPS ) as their shipper.

- All in all , a recipe for disappointment for the buyer .Pretty disconcerting. But remember, these are all "replacement" parts so it isn't like someone is buying something intended as a nice over the counter loudspeaker component like the old days. The Loudspeaker Component Series is long gone.

[Earl K]

Just a note on the ME150HS price. MSRP is $449 and Harman sells it off their website for $415. I mentioned this practice in another post the other day.

Right :
- The $34.00 discount available by buying direct ( just to bypass a dealer ) is nowhere near worth the jeapordy involved if & when, things go wrong .

- ie; Shipping mishaps between Harman & an Authorized Dealer are just that / they are between those two entities to sort out .

- If Harmans' packaging is as atrocious as I've been led to believe / then I would expect any dealer who knows better would endeavour to "fix-it" before reselling the product ( all part of the "value-added" chain of resale, so to speak ) .

:)

[4313B]

- If Harmans' packaging is as atrocious as I've been led to believe / then I would expect any dealer who knows better would endeavour to "fix-it" before reselling the product ( all part of the "value-added" chain of resale, so to speak ) .I really don't think there is any reason for a Dealer to get involved with this specific issue. Just order the "spare" parts directly from Harman. I think John W, Sourceoneaudio and Zilch did just that.

[Zilch]

I guess I have to determine if I'm going to use the BMS 4555 driver as that limits my crossover to 1000-1200Hz, which then requires an LE14x type LF driver (or alternate suggestion?). The price on the BMS 4555 is an incentive here.511B is a 1" throat. That means either 4550 or 4552nd in BMS. 4555 is 1.5" exit, and I mentioned it as mating with PT waveguides, no longer under consideration, apparently.


If I cross lower I have a wider variety of LF drivers I can use. Barcelonas are crossed at 500Hz which precludes the BMS 4555 but should make the crossover less audible?There are tradeoffs between low and high frequency response, both in the drivers and the horns. While Altec used 511b down to 500 Hz in some models, it's better at 800 Hz and above.


As long as I base my LF driver selection on an Altec crossover designed for the 511b I should be fine?No. Nobody suggested cloning Barcelona or VOTT.


Since this is such a large horn is there an 18" driver that could be used? This is a real strech I know.Not crossing at 800+ Hz. Using 2235H or LE14x works; those I have tried. I have no experience with Altec woofers, but if it's the same situation as their vintage 1" compression drivers, i.e., an evolution of indeterminate variants, I wouldn't be going there....

[89-300ce]

- I'd like to recommend Altec 902-8B ( or GPAs' version ) as 1" drivers / but their slightly higher impedance can pose a level matching problem ( if you're after every db of UHF that a compensation circuit can squeeze from a driver ) .


I was looking at the 9846-8a you had previously posted a curve for. Consists of 511b&802-8d, 411-8a, ns501, 30923.

The HFattenuator/equalizer 30923 isn't listed when crossing into the 416-8a
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1974-enc-design/page12.jpg
so no attenuator/equalizer is needed for that combination?
Would substituting the ME150h or 2235 (in appropriate cabinets) for the 416-8a still allow the use of the NS501 without attenuator/equalizer? Am I pushing the 511b too low at 500hz? I would think being down there would make the crossover less detectable.

What is the difference between an 802-8d and a 902-8b?


On second thought, hold on, I have a LOT more reading to do. It's kind of fun.:banghead:


Thanks all

Jorg

[89-300ce]

511B is a 1" throat. That means either 4550 or 4552nd in BMS. 4555 is 1.5" exit, and I mentioned it as mating with PT waveguides, no longer under consideration, apparently.

Yeah, I know, I couldn't wait to buy something.


There are tradeoffs between low and high frequency response, both in the drivers and the horns. While Altec used 511b down to 500 Hz in some models, it's better at 800 Hz and above.

Got it. 800Hz


No. Nobody suggested cloning Barcelona or VOTT.

And I had seriously considered buying Barcelonas:o:


Not crossing at 800+ Hz. Using 2235H or LE14x works; those I have tried. I have no experience with Altec woofers, but if it's the same situation as their vintage 1" compression drivers, i.e., an evolution of indeterminate variants, I wouldn't be going there....

Ouch!
I have a LOT more reading to do.

Jorg

[Tom Brennan]

Jorg---Subjectively Altec made the best sounding woofers, that is the finest reproduction of mid to upper bass and lower midrange. IMO nothing does vocals better than a 515 or 416.

I'm unfamiliar with the 411 woofer used in the Barcelona.

[89-300ce]

I have some vintage Korting alnico 3-ways that are all about the voice. I have some Angstrom 2-ways that are flat, smooth and image superb. I have some Advents that are, well, Advents. Although I want this project to do everything well, I'd also like them to do what my other speakers can't. Deliver a deep satisfying bass with impact/slam. I've heard JBL 15's do just that so that's the way I'm leaning. I'm trying to decide between the 2235 and LE14a's. The red is 2235, white is le14a, and yellow is 2245:). Of course this tells me nothing about the sound quality of the drivers. This is from WinISD. How acurate are the optimal cabinet dimensions from this program?

Jorg

[Zilch]

Forget 2245H:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16898

Also, to some extent, deep, extended bass and impact are mutually exclusive. Not sure I know what "slam" is, even....

[89-300ce]

I'm listening to myself saying "slam, punch, slam, punch" and conclude that "punch" is what I should have used.

OK, 18" won't work for me. I was pretty much just kidding.

So if I understand correctly I'm left with

511b, BMS 4552, LE14x, N1201-8a

or

511b, BMS 4550, 2235, N801-8a

How does one choose?

Jorg

[Zilch]

First, you do one,

Then the other, of course. :p

With 511b, I'd start with 2235H....

[4313B]

Also, to some extent, deep, extended bass and impact are mutually exclusive. Not sure I know what "slam" is, even....Have you ever heard a pair of JBL Model 4345 Professional Series Studio Monitors dude?
And for a wee bit more of all those things there is the JBL Model 4355 Professional Series Studio Monitor.
Spkrman57 has a system with plenty of all that too.

How does one choose?The LE14x is a real nice sounding driver but from your posts I gather that you'd do better with something like a 2234H or 2235H.

[Robh3606]

And for a wee bit more of all those things there is the JBL Model 4355 Professional Series Studio Monitor.

I got to hear a pair of 4350's in someones livingroom. The lowend on them was impressive to say the least. That was one fun afternoon!!

Rob:)

[89-300ce]

Then I am decided.

511b, BMS 4550, 2235, N801-8a

Any preference between alnico or ferrite 2235?

What would be a sensible price for either?

Jorg


PS. I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I feel that I'm now well on my way to building my first set of speakers. The way that components interact with each other is not immediately obvious, the options and combinations available are truly overwhelming, and none of this is intuative for a novice. I thank you for your generous advice and direction. I'll be scouring this forum for every reference ever made regarding the above components.

[Robh3606]

I would go with Ferrite no chance of demagnetizing them and lower distortion with the SFG core.

Rob:)

[89-300ce]

Thanks Rob

It also turns out I have 2215a cores available to me. Looking at the spec
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2215.pdf

I guess it's not a substitute for the 2235?

Jorg

[Robh3606]

No it would be closer to a 2234 which is a 2235 without the mass ring. Higher FS and effciency.

Rob:)

[pos]

The LE14x is a real nice sounding driver but from your posts I gather that you'd do better with something like a 2234H or 2235H.
Why? Does a 2235H have more punch and "jbl sound" than a LE14H-x ?

[4313B]

Why? Does a 2235H have more punch and "jbl sound" than a LE14H-x ?Get both and use them in various boxes and installations over a period of twenty five years and then come back and post your impressions. My post is based on my perception of his posts and what I think would appeal to him most based on that perception. Here's one of them for reference: (note the final question)

I'm listening to myself saying "slam, punch, slam, punch" and conclude that "punch" is what I should have used.

OK, 18" won't work for me. I was pretty much just kidding.

So if I understand correctly I'm left with

511b, BMS 4552, LE14x, N1201-8a

or

511b, BMS 4550, 2235, N801-8a

How does one choose?

Jorg

[pos]

Get both and use them in various boxes and installations over a period of twenty five years and then come back and post your impressions.
I don't know how I should interpret this. Maybe I was not clear enought and my question led to misinterpretation?
To make myself clear, I am asking this question because I really want to know what your optinion is. Because I know that you've used both for a long time and you are an expert, and :blah:
I have never owned any of these, and would appreciate any comment before buying. And of course I am willing to make my own experience and share it afterwards.

[4313B]

Why? Does a 2235H have more punch <snip> than a LE14H-x ?Yes.

[89-300ce]

Here are two plots for the 2235 form WINisd. The white is the program optimized box (smoothest), the yellow is one slightly modified. Will the hump in the yellow be audible. How much from flat can I go (+/_) before I hear it?

Jorg

[Earl K]

Hi Jorg,

Glad to see you're doing some of the necessary leg-work on your diy project .

Yes, once you add in some LF room-gain / I believe the tunings you just posted will be a bit rough sounding .

A couple of notes :

(i) Set your programs vertical scale to something a little less drastic to look at ; ie; 3 db or even 6 db .

(ii) Look at tuning up the 2235H in a 4.5 to 5.5 cu ft box tuned to around 30 hz for a start .
- Your SIMS are tuned abit too high, in boxes that are a bit too small ( IMO )

[89-300ce]

How is this?

The room is 22x14 and is a dedicated listening room.

I have to read up on room effect!

Jorg

[Earl K]

Jorg,

Using the search engine ;
- Look for "Banana Curve" with either Giskard , Zilch or RobH3606 as the author . You should be able to find an existing pic showing a tuning for the 2235H known as the banana curve ( done in BB6P ).
- It has become a desirable curve that interacts well with room gain ( though I can't say I've really tried it ) .

- Or Alternately, play around with your simm software until you get a curve that has a slope shaped like a banana . ( try 4.5 cu' at 25 hz ).

- And switch your vertical (db ) scale to something less drastic / you'll never see the banana at that resolution . ;)

<> Earl K

[89-300ce]

Here are two curves.

The yellow is 4.55cu.ft. - 29 (4.55cu.ft.@29)Hz
The white is 4.5cu. ft. - 25 Hz

I suppose the white looks more banana to me, but, ... the other curve is "yellow":thmbsup:.

Jorg

[4313B]

I used the 4.55 cu ft @ 29 Hz for a pair of 4430 clones and it worked quite well.

Tuning 4.5 cu ft lower to ~ 25 Hz is basically a JBL Model B380 alignment.

[Earl K]

Okay,, good enough for now .

- Something to remember , tuning ports ( ducting ) can stick outside the cabinet / allowing one to play with different lengths of ducting. This way one gets to find a tuning that works & sounds best within their own environment.

- I always recommend that people make test cabinets before doing the real thing.
- If you decide to ignore that advice / at least make cabinets that are simplistic enough that they can be covered/veneered easily & have some form of easy entry ( to add extra bracing if your first attempt resonates ) .

:)

[89-300ce]

I used the 4.55 cu ft @ 29 Hz for a pair of 4430 clones and it worked quite well.


I believe that's where that curve came from.

Jorg

[89-300ce]

Okay,, good enough for now .

- Something to remember , tuning ports ( ducting ) can stick outside the cabinet / allowing one to play with different lengths of ducting. This way one gets to find a tuning that works & sounds best within their own environment.

- I always recommend that people make test cabinets before doing the real thing.
- If you decide to ignore that advice / at least make cabinets that are simplistic enough that they can be covered/veneered easily & have some form of easy entry ( to add extra bracing if your first attempt resonates ) .

:)

Good advice. I can temporarily mount the duct/s, play with them, and then permanently fasten the optimum duct.

Location of the LF driver.
Because I think there will be some imaging information coming from the woofer I'm considering centering the LF driver to my ear and mounting the horn in a fore/aft and tilt adjustable manner as close as possible above. I would try to keep the cabinet as narrow as possible, just wide enough to mount the woofer, with an insert over the baffle to flush out the woofer (for cosmetics). The height of the cabinet is determined by the woofer centred to my ear and the depth is set to get my proper volume. I only need a sweet spot for one so the tilt on the horn should be ok? I'd like to stay away from any re-enforcing from the floor so the high woofer should be ok?

Jorg

[Earl K]

Jorg,

A few thoughts,

(i) Let the width of a wide horn dictate the width of your woofer cabinet . It'll look nicer .
- the 511 is @ 24 " / so go for a cabinet width in that area .
- if you go with a smaller dimension for the width of woofer cab. / I think it'll look goofy ( IMO ) .

(ii) Don't be in a hurry !
- Use a draw program ( or a CAD package ) to lay out the component "looks" and arrangements.
- "Know" that you are going to enjoy the "look" before you actually build it . So use draw programs as visual aids.

(iii) The center of horn should be at or near ear level .
- For many people in a typical chair, that means around 34"
- Take a measurement with you in your chair ( center of ear down to floor ) & make that dimesion ( more or less ) the center of the 511 .

(iv) The woofer should be close to the horn for good acoustic summing .
- Follow advice (ii) and then layout the woofer just under the horn.
- Then make note of the distance of floor to center of woofer. ( & come back for more advice )

(v) Buy a DIY bok from Solen ( Canada ) (http://www.solen.ca/) on cabinet construction .
- I'm not sure what is the current favourite book / perhaps it is "Bullock on Boxes" . Do a search to find out ( OTOH; maybe it's Vance Dickasons' book (http://www.solen.ca/ldc.htm) ) .

(vi) Don't be scared to look down the throat of a compression-driver/horn combo.
- If you are for some reason , then you're looking to build the wrong project.
- ie; Don't "push-way" the horn like some sort of "foul-smelling fish".
- If you're not willing to work through the challenges presented by horns / then drop this project .

(vii) Most of the imaging one will enjoy from a horn/baffle-mount woofer hybrid , comes from the horn.
- So forget about giving the woofer preference to your ear-level .

<> Earl K

[Earl K]

Here's one "look" ( tallish ) that incorporates a 511 and a 15" woofer ( as well as a tweeter ). These are owned by "Wardsweb" and were built by Mr. Widget . I believe that overall they were close to being 4.5 cu foot in volume . Widget ?

http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/transition.jpg


Here is the cabinet with metal protection sceens in place .


http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/den_jbls.jpg


Here is the "look" when the screens are covered by Zilches' official JBL blue grill cloth .

http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/grill_covered.jpg

The cabinets in the above pics were still in their raw unfinished state and were to be eventually finished with this veneer .

http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/sapele_pommele_sheet.jpg

The above pics came from Wardsweb DIY Saga (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12471).

As I've mentioned, I'm personally, just as drawn to a squatter look when 511s are paired with 15" woofers .

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2326&stc=1&d=1081328628

Jorg, ( for the near future ), I'm taking a hiatus from commenting on this DIY project . It is afterall, your DIY .

[89-300ce]

Not a problem. Thanks for all the help and the link to Wardsweb diy.
I'm pretty much done for now as well. It's summer so it's boats and cabins for me. I'll procure more components over the next few months and draw out some cabinet designs so I'm ready to begin construction when it snows:).

Jorg