Music Over-compression

[boputnam]

This just showed-up over on ProSoundWeb. Insightful explanation - with graphics - of just what compression does to dynamic range. Share it with your earless friends...

Music Over-compression (http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/16/loudness-war-music-over-compression-demonstrated-on-youtube/)

.

[Fred Sanford]

I was listening to music on FM the other day, for the first time probably in years. The lack of dynamics really irritated me.

Ti Dome might recognize this quote: "Everything louder than everything else"

Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

je

[Titanium Dome]

Thanks for the link.

All you Mac users on the Forum who are running OS X 10.4 should get the recommended AudioLeak. I use it repeatedly to help me decide which dance/club/dj/electronic/trance mixes I'll buy and which ones I won't.

[Titanium Dome]

I was listening to music on FM the other day, for the first time probably in years. The lack of dynamics really irritated me.

Ti Dome might recognize this quote: "Everything louder than everything else"

Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

je

Meatloaf "Bat out of Hell II" song

and

Motorhead live album

and

my boy, Ian Gillan, "Made in Japan" :rockon1:

[DavidF]

This just showed-up over on ProSoundWeb. Insightful explanation - with graphics - of just what compression does to dynamic range. Share it with your earless friends...

Music Over-compression (http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/16/loudness-war-music-over-compression-demonstrated-on-youtube/)

.

Good bookmark, Bo. Helps me understand the process...not having the experience to clue me to how compression is used, or over misused. Is compression used in live sound, vocals perhaps?
DavidF

[boputnam]

Good bookmark, Bo. Helps me understand the process...not having the experience to clue me to how compression is used, or over misused. Is compression used in live sound, vocals perhaps?
DavidFActually, it depends.

These are devices which reduce the dynamic range. Used properly, they maintain a pleasant gain structure so that soft passages are heard, and loud passages do not hurt. But, their power, if abused, squashes the dynamic range into a narrow few dB's, often too loud, and nothing sounds natural.

Typically, these are used to corral an instrument - say lead guitar, or keyboard. In the former, gain can rise dramatically during a lead so the C/L collars the response and keeps the gain maybe only +3dB above a background passage (even while the artist may boost their lead many dB more, but that would be too loud and maybe even painful for the audience). Conversely, on keys, many passages drop to levels almost lost in the mix, so the engineer might adjust the C/L for minimal firing during low passages (soft knee, low ratio and long release), but add some "make-up gain" to keep it layered in. Then, when the keys take a lead, if set properly, the C/L will allow the gain to increase rationally, so that the lead is above the mix, but constraining it from rising too far. The settings are very adjustable, and their use benefits greatly from experience.

In effect, these devices relieve the FOH engineer from "riding the faders" to keep solos prominent and not lose back-up parts by being too soft. Riding the faders is a role fraught with error of missing cues, and also forgetting to un-do what they did for the lead(s) and re-establishing the base gain structure. This ends up in shows getting louder and louder...

Similar application can be on vocals, although when mixing wedges from FOH their use on the vocal channel can impact the monitor (stage wedge) mix which can be distracting to the artist. Just when they are really "leaning in" to a vocal riff, the C/L will begin clamping down - so, just when they need to hear the most, the compression begins reducing their dynamic range. It can be maddening for the artist. Careful settings can allow their use in vocal channels, but often the engineer uses these across the VOX Group buss, which impacts the house, but not the artist's mix.

Lastly, for now (I gotta get some shut-eye...), soft C/L across the mix buss can be a powerful tool to keep the mains from getting too loud when the band is really driving. That is, the engineer has a good gain structure working, the SPL is about right (95-100dB) but the band get's wound-up and starts really pushing toward "11" on their heads, and the drummer is suddenly doing the watoozy on his thrown. Heck - we had a good thing going now it's just too loud (>110dB). A subtle, often tube, compressor across the mix buss will corral those extra peaks and keep things sane. Since employing one on a routine basis, I've had NO complaints of either "Turn it Up!" or "It's too Loud!!".

But again, moderation is the key with these. All of them are different. The engineer must study when they fire, how the fire, and the character of their gain reduction. Too often, too much is used and the show, well, sucks.

[Fred Sanford]

Meatloaf "Bat out of Hell II" song

and

Motorhead live album

and

my boy, Ian Gillan, "Made in Japan" :rockon1:

Yep, I was thinking about yer boy...plus I haven't heard "BOOH II", but could certainly imagine Lemmy using the phrase.

The song that irritated me on the radio was Black Crowes, Hard to Handle. Squashed like you wouldn't believe. Picture a Polar Bear- this is the Black Crowes. Picture a bear-skin rug- this is the Black Crowes on FM.

je

[Art J.]

Here is another link from years ago.
I still rant about this.
Horns often get blamed for harshness when its really the compression.

http://georgegraham.com/compress.html (http://georgegraham.com/compress.html)

[WTPRO]

Nice presentations. I also contend that the tonal balance is also up for interpretation during the mix down, and as such the stated goal of a 'flat' overall response by many audio enthusiasts becomes a 'qualified' statement. That is, I contend that when the entire mike-> record-> cd-> playback-> speaker chain of events is looked at, the final result is often a crap shoot. If you have zero tolerance for tonal adjustment (I dont), you will find less and less program material that actually sound right. All you can do is initially shoot for a nominally flat responding playback system and then go from there.

Commercials are also getting louder with respect to the program. The 'old FCC' used to put a limit on just how much dynamic compression you could apply. I can only wish for those days to return.

Best regards,
WT-Pro
www.woofertester.com (http://www.woofertester.com)

[JBL 4645]

Compression is a very common thing on Radio not to mention TV broadcasts and some of the ole VHS tapes DVD lacks it by a small margin. Isn’t there a device called a (dynamic range expander) I seen to remember a music pa show loaning me such a device in the early 1990’s.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Actually, it depends.



Thanks for the explanation Bo. For those that don't know how it is used, it's the best I have read.

Ken

[MJ Bing]

Bo

Thanks for the link. :thmbsup:

Michael :D

[kpippen]

In a live mix...compression serves no purpose unless you have a bunch of screamers...http://www.teamaai.net/kevin/2cents.gif

[kpippen]

Isn’t there a device called a (dynamic range expander) I seen to remember a music pa show loaning me such a device in the early 1990’s.
Yep,...MXR and DBX used to make good ones... I don't think they are manufactured any more since everything went digital... You can still find them and I would highly recommend if your into vinyl and recording to tape...

[Hofmannhp]

Compression is a very common thing on Radio

Hi all,

in the german broadcasting stations we mostly use this part:
http://www.orban.com/pdf/2129-RW-Optimod8500.pdf

it's a 14,000 $ box used in the last signalmeters (feet) to the transmitters.

Each broadcaster is forced to send parts of a dB more then the others for the success of their commercials.
Maybe it's the same, when all bypass it. :o:

HP

[lfh]

Clearly it would be better if producers and mastering engineers would leave the (over) compression to the radio stations. In this case at least the CD:s wouldn't be FUBAR, and the quite sophisticated Orban processor could do a nice job (as long as not all knobs are on 11, that is).

Even better, of course, would be to implement dynamics control at the reception side, such that the end user could adjust the amount depending on the circumstances (ranging from noisy car to silent living room).

The current mastering practice is indeed bizarre...

On a side-note:

Another source for over-compression is the almost unlimited availability of dynamics control within the DAW:s used today. It's so tempting to add compressors to all tracks, since it's just a few mouse clicks away. However, as a seasoned mix engineer (I forgot who) said: "If you're not riding the faders at mixdown, you're using too much compression". Wise words.

[boputnam]

In a live mix...compression serves no purpose unless you have a bunch of screamers...http://www.teamaai.net/kevin/2cents.gifGot it - thanks!

Now I can sell some gear, open up some dearly needed rack space and delete this C/L nonsense from the all the Riders! Cool...

[kpippen]

In a live mix...compression serves no purpose unless you have a bunch of screamers...http://www.teamaai.net/kevin/2cents.gifObviously my statement was "off the cuff" and rash,...so please accept my apologizes and allow me to clarify thy humble opinion:

Personally…I prefer to set my gains and ride the faders in a live venue,...because system (system is a keyword here) compression brings about challenges that I don't have the time to deal with...http://www.teamaai.net/kevin/2cents.gif

Compression allows increased energy to reach amplifiers and loudspeakers,...which may increase the possibility of feedback... When the signal level goes above the threshold,...the level of the signal is then brought down... This makes the overall signal quieter because the peaks have been compressed... Makeup gain (especially in a quite passage) is provided to bring the peaks back up to where they were... If 6dB of compression is used the feedback margin is reduced by 6dB,...and a couple dB more might set the system ringing…

Also,…the increased energy could potentially create failure (usually in underpowered systems) with the loudspeakers (like burn a voice coil),...or it could trigger the thermal protection of an exhausted amplifier from a higher duty cycle (especially if driving a low impedance load),...which will shut it down...

Another side effect of compression might be "dulling the sound"… The frequency content of music has a lot more energy in the low frequencies than the high ones... When a kick drum is compressed the cymbal hits (which may happen at the same time) are also compressed…

Over-compression can cause a pumping or breathing sound that can be very annoying...

Now...with all that being said,…if compression is inserted and used properly,...and in the right hands...it will definitely make a live mix sound better…:)

[boputnam]

Now with all that being said,…if compression is used properly and in the right hands...it will definitely make a live mix sound better…:)And in that, we agree. Compression is too often poorly employed and those results are damned awful.

Many don't recognize compression so readily - either in recordings or live - sometimes I wish I was one of them...:(

[johnaec]

One interesting side effect of compression that can be positive and really improve the sound is when doing live recordings, with a small amount of compression on the vocals.

Most compressors actually function as "companders", (compress the peaks, expand the valleys). If set up as mentioned for live recordings, what happens is that when the vocals pause, a compressor will often raise the bleedthrough instrumental background a subtle amount, resulting in a better mix. Once the vocals come back in, the instruments slightly fade back, and though not consciously aware of it when it happens, proof is in the playback. I've noticed this on a number of live recordings I've done, and while not specifically set up for this effect, it definitely resulted in more "polished" sounding recordings.

A similar "trick" I use is that even in smaller venues, I'll always mic the kick drum. This allows me to bring up its fundamental, (especially with EQ, but only to the point that it "feels" right), so that the drummer doesn't have to 'kick" it near as hard as without amplification. The "trick" is that when drummers don't have to use so much force for the kick, they usually unconsciously hold back more on the rest of the drums, instead of madly thrashing away, trying to match the force used for an un-mic'd kick drum. Again - 'usually makes a huge difference in the overall balance...

John

[Fred Sanford]

One interesting side effect of compression that can be positive and really improve the sound is when doing live recordings, with a small amount of compression on the vocals.

Most compressors actually function as "companders", (compress the peaks, expand the valleys). If set up as mentioned for live recordings, what happens is that when the vocals pause, a compressor will often raise the bleedthrough instrumental background a subtle amount, resulting in a better mix. Once the vocals come back in, the instruments slightly fade back, and though not consciously aware of it when it happens, proof is in the playback. I've noticed this on a number of live recordings I've done, and while not specifically set up for this effect, it definitely resulted in more "polished" sounding recordings.


I discovered this early on, when I once gated the vocal sub group during mixdown, and wondered where my (totally by luck) wonderful cymbal sounds went any time the singing stopped...




A similar "trick" I use is that even in smaller venues, I'll always mic the kick drum. This allows me to bring up its fundamental, (especially with EQ, but only to the point that it "feels" right), so that the drummer doesn't have to 'kick" it near as hard as without amplification. The "trick" is that when drummers don't have to use so much force for the kick, they usually unconsciously hold back more on the rest of the drums, instead of madly thrashing away, trying to match the force used for an un-mic'd kick drum. Again - 'usually makes a huge difference in the overall balance...

John


Absolutely, positively, 100% agree. I've been working recently with a friend's horn-driven funk band: good drummer, tendency to speed up or hit the snare harder than needed (sees a faraway back wall, tries to reach it). Small sub near him, just the kick & low end of the bass guitar in it: his whole body relaxes, his playing hits the pocket, his kick becomes more dynamic overall. He eases through most tunes, digs in when the effect is needed...nice.

je

P.S. - they play Immigrant Song with the full horn section- big fun!

[boputnam]

...If set up as mentioned for live recordings, what happens is that when the vocals pause, a compressor will often raise the bleedthrough instrumental background a subtle amount, resulting in a better mix. Once the vocals come back in, the instruments slightly fade back...That is exactly what I don't want. "Bleedthrough", aka open mics, are not good - they blur the mix (and recording) and are sources of feedback. Closing them through use of expanders greatly improves GBF and control.

All my C/L have expanders on the front-end. I set these to close the mic when their source is not "on mic". So, when using subtle C/L on the VOX inserts, the expanders reduce the gain when no-one is on mic. Similarly for the electric guitar mics (if artist switches to acoustic, the elec mic closes, and I then also mute it). Of course, the skins are all gated, so when they are done with release the mics close.

I mic everything - typically consume 8- to 10-channels with the Kit, alone. If you want cymbals, mic them - in-particular the Ride which is an important counter-point to the snare.

This approach produces some very impressive 2-track live recordings - clean, nuanced, and nicely panned. Many of my shows go right up on band websites and Archive.org without any post-processing.

[johnaec]

That is exactly what I don't want. "Bleedthrough", aka open mics, are not good - they blur the mix (and recording) and are sources of feedback. Closing them through use of expanders greatly improves GBF and control.In the type of situations you're in, you're surely right. The gigs I do and recordings I make are just real simple - usually with only 4 feeds to the recorder. First, a line out from the mixer, (which is only running vocals and horns in this case), two live mics for covering guitsr/keys/drums, and kick mixed with direct bass for the 4th input. I'm just recording gigs at the little clubs we play, along with a few rehearsals... We're just not at the stage where noise gates and other peripherals are worth the expense for what we're doing.

If I were working with the same level stuff you do, I'd have to agree your way is better! But for the simple little stuff we work with, it comes out pretty good... :o:

John

[boputnam]

... with direct bass for the 4th input. And you must be the bass player, I presume...? :p

Got it. That set-up of yours would work just fine.

[mbd7]

An uncompressed snare drum will surely give you the opportunity to replace the diaphragms in your "compression" drivers... i.e. JBL horns. At a cost that may be quite educational. A corollary to Murphy's Law states:
Experience is inversely proportional to the amount of equipment ruined!

[cvengr]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1878724.ece

Also noted here, but perhaps in not as well described terms.

[JBL 4645]

Yep,...MXR and DBX used to make good ones... I don't think they are manufactured any more since everything went digital... You can still find them and I would highly recommend if your into vinyl and recording to tape...

kpippen

I knew it, because the (dbx) was on, lone to me from the PA Eddie Moors music store in Boscombe, and I remember the neighbour across the road, while I was playing “Glory” on VHS. “TURN THAT BLOODY THING DOWN!”:D Yeah I was expanding the sound and just playing around with the dynamics.

I might look it getting some new ones for the future and using them more seriously this time around.

You wouldn’t know which type of model that could be it’s was between late 1989 1990.


Hi all,

in the german broadcasting stations we mostly use this part:
http://www.orban.com/pdf/2129-RW-Optimod8500.pdf

it's a 14,000 $ box used in the last signalmeters (feet) to the transmitters.

Each broadcaster is forced to send parts of a dB more then the others for the success of their commercials.
Maybe it's the same, when all bypass it. :o:

HP

Hofmannhp

Commercials well since I haven’t watched British TV in more than 3 years now, yes it sticks out like a sore thumb when a film goes into a (commercial advertisement) with the sound suddenly jumping +6db or 8db!

I heard that Dolby is introducing a new system around 2008 called “Dolby Volume.”

You can watch Dolby on "Into Tomorrow" at CES 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwBgHHmYQU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwBgHHmYQU)

[pelly3s]

2 compressors on everything then turn it all the way up lol! no seriously though a lot of people do over compress but there are certian times where a lot of compression does work. I like to use two on my LS-9 on vocals when the person is all over the map. I set one lightly and the other as a hard limiter. I learned from one of the most influential engineers in my life that there are two ways to use compression, one way is to protect things and control the mix and the other is in an artistic manor. Sound is a personal thing, everyone heres different and everyone has there opinions on how things should be done.

[DavidF]

Here is a surprise. Someone else has been pondering this discussion...

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/33549

DavidF

[CONVERGENCE]

Classical music uses very little compression on the overall finished product.
It boils down to mixing and making the orchestra sound coherent.

The techniques used by some famous labels are "top secret" such as London Records.

The old Fairchild limiter is still a favorite .

If you wondered why Cinema ADDS on radio or simply THX gets that subharmonic sound from?


Why just rock the house when you can rattle the foundation loose. The wildy popular beat of "House Music" is likely to be driven by the throbbing, low-end bass of dbx® Subharmonic Synthesizers in clubs around the world. For decades, the patented dbx Subharmonic Synthesis has been the secret weapon used by mobile DJ's and film and sound professionals to produce an impact unavailable from any other device unique because the dbx process actually produces a new, Waveform Modeled bass note, exactly an octave below the bass in the original audio. The dbx 120A Subharmonic Synthesizer with Modeled Waveform Synthesisô has been specially optimized by dbx engineers for the needs of audio professionals. Its two separate bands of bass synthesis provide the best combination of smoothness and control, and the independent Low Frequency Boost circuit is designed to get the most out of high-performance low frequency speaker systems

...........................................

[Davethreshold]

Another example would be the "Coverage" C.D. by Mandy Moore. I couldn't wait for that to come out. I think she has turned out to be a truly superb Pop singer......I could go on, but I'll spare you all.:bouncy: On that C.D. all of it was so compressed and reworked. It seemed like the engineer, used every single adjustment available to him. It sounded like there was nothing left. Then in an interview she said it was done in his garage/studio. I saw a picture of the vocal booth, it was tiny. I thought she was really short-changed in that production, with most of it being :banghead:compression.:banghead: When I compared her live ver. of, "Senses Working Overtime" to the Coverage c.d. the live T.V. ver sounded ten times better. It should be the opposite.

[Akira]

I think that most people identify compression and limiting as something that goes on the output stage, when in fact traditionally it was applied with best results on the input stage.
Compression on the "way up" (tape input) sounds totally different and was often used as a way of dealing with the limited headroom of tape. Using compression properly on the way up allows for a beautifully seated, well balanced mix that is effortless on the ears--musicality. This was achived through a combination of many things...starting with a great vocalist performing in a fabulous sounding room, through a U47 into a Neve mic pre, and yes the infamous 1176 compressor. All of these factors were carefully layered by an expert ear to take full advantage of tape, which itself was always 'perfectly' saturated providing rich third and fifth harmonic overtones. This is where the musicality comes from that we miss today.

Whose to blame...that vanishing species known as the recording engineer.

Having said that, everything that was possible then can be done today with (IMHO) even better results. BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM! Too much power in the wrong hands producing product for an uneducated public playing back on an ipod = "what you get today"

[bigtree]

:applaud:AVS Video Tools + AVS Audio Tools is a good choice , just find it at http://www.oursdownload.com/avs-video-audio-dvd.html
I use it , it works pretty good .

[Robh3606]

This is an old story. They had the similar issues with mass produced vinyl. They would roll off the bass response and limit the dymanics. They would use compression to get as much play time as they could get and also keep the grove echo to a minimum. Use as little actual vinyl as possible so that some records were very thin. Half Speed masters again showed everyone what the media was capable of. Most mass produced releases were severly compromissed by comparison.

CD's were supposed to allow you to essentially get the master tape on a commercial release. No compression, no bass roll-off, and no surface noise.

Too bad it's history repeating itself. Doesn't matter what the media is the emphasis is not on sound quality, at least for normal releases.

Rob:banghead:

[Allanvh5150]

Hi guys. Here is my spin on the subject.....

Being a live sound engineer for twenty years or so, I have uused compression on pretty much everything. Early days, we used no compression at all. The main problem with a "live" mix, is the huge dynamic range. A kick drum, for example, is "all or nothing". My first use of compression was on the FOH mix. We originally used "hard knee" settings but quickly realised that it sucked the life from the mix. It was great for protecting the horn drivers though. Diaphragm failures became rare. We then started to add compression to bass guitar and on the main vocal group. We never used compression on monitors though as it opened up a raft of problems that I wont go into at this time. With the added compression on individual instruments, I didnt need to use so much FOH compression so it was run soft knee with an icreased threshold level. Basically the FOH compressor was set up as a peak limiter. If I needed more compression early on in the night I would keep the threshold low and as the venue filled up I would turn the threshold back so as to use less compression. This would allow the room to efectively "self compress".
Now why do the recordings we hear on local radio sound overcompressed and lack dynamics? In the old days of "AM" over modulation didnt really cause any problems, but with the advent of "FM" with increased dynamics, it soon became clear that any for of over modulation would destroy the FM waveform and it would sound very very bad. So all of our new recordings, i.e. from about 30 years ago, use a heap of compression to keep the stations happy. They also add a heap moe compression locally, before the transmitter. But that doesnt really help us with our listen pleasure at home. Over compression becomes very fatigueing to listen to for to long but it is a tool that has to be used for broadcast. Maybe we could get the recording studios to record our favourite recordings with less. :D

[mike.e]

Very interesting.
But I still dont get why its abused - sure, it sells,but why wouldnt uncompressed music sell? It seems like the music consumer is in a drugged state of compression.

Or do the music labels know more than we do about how to sell cheap pop?Psychometric tests?

Is it a conspiracy by those tiny 2" ipod speaker sellers to get decent levels with 8watt chipamps?

[boputnam]

But I still dont get why its abused - sure, it sells, but why wouldnt uncompressed music sell? Simply, uncompressed music presents problems for the largest segment of the market - their systems (and attention spans) cannot reproduce (nor tolerate) the dynamic range of raw waveforms. They end-up turning it up / turning it down / turning it up, etc. They are not about sitting and listening - their music is a backdrop to their life. For those applications much of uncompressed music would be lost / inaudible if uncompressed.

As with anything, though, the compression is too often excessive, and has had the unintended consequence of "training" their ears. Now they think this hard compression is normal. Unlearning this will be very hard, indeed...

[Baron030]

Originally Posted by Boputnam:
Simply, uncompressed music presents problems for the largest segment of the market - their systems (and attention spans) cannot reproduce (nor tolerate) the dynamic range of raw waveforms.


I think you have really nailed it on the head.
Most systems just can not reproduce uncompressed music.

I once lent my copy of the "Eargle On Everest" CD to one of my co-workers.
And it came as no surprise, when he said to me, "That it sounded like crap on his BOSE system".:rotfl:

It takes a really big system to handle uncompressed music without any stress or strain.
I know if I had attempted to play the "Eargle On Everest" CD loudly on my old 030 system.
My crown K1 would have done some serious damage to my newly re-coned D/E-130s.
We are talking vaporized voices coils here.

But, with my new system, an uncompressed CD like "Eargle On Everest" is a real sonic experience. :thmbsup:
It does not sound like a CD. Instead it sounds like a live performance.

And I don’t think a lot of people are experiencing live music anymore.
So, they don’t know what they are missing.
It’s definitely a “training” issue.

Baron030 :)

[Andyoz]

Not sure if this has been covered here before but this seems to be getting some interest in the industry.

http://www.turnmeup.org/

Basically, they are sick of the over compressed crap coming out of the mainstream music industry the last decade.

[Allanvh5150]

Not sure if this has been covered here before but this seems to be getting some interest in the industry.

http://www.turnmeup.org/

Basically, they are sick of the over compressed crap coming out of the mainstream music industry the last decade.

And the reality is that if you want your stuff played on the radio, FM, you need to compress the hell out of it. Joe public doesnt give a rats about how average it sounds anyway.:)

[clmrt]

Yeah, but don't radio stations have compression built into their process?

Plenty of dynamic recordings on the airwaves.