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Thom
05-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Not complaining. May later but not right now. Are we being closely monitored lest we should stray off topic? Like, keep it to business, there will be no socializing here, unless you can cleverly sneak it in around the tech and money talk and such? Also, can anyone with the moderator title decide the masses are having too much fun and shut down a thread? Do you run shifts? Do some of you enjoy shutting down threads a little more than others so that there are times when the rules (I thought I had read them and I missed what "color" got shut down over) are a bit more slack than others? Like I said I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to get a feel for how things have changed. If it was my thread then maybe I would have complained.

johnaec
05-15-2007, 07:33 PM
I think "color" got closed because Romy the Cat was starting to come across as insulting to many, without backing up his claims, which was starting to elicit like responses from other members. I for one don't see any value in the continuation of that type of thread...

John

Thom
05-15-2007, 08:09 PM
I thought I had picked up on what was taking place better than I had. Still, I'll be surprised if closing that thread fixes the problem, but I don't wish to predict failure so let's wait and see and hope for good.

Robh3606
05-15-2007, 08:34 PM
Are we being closely monitored lest we should stray off topic?

The central scrutunizer is always watching:yes:


there will be no socializing here

Yes these are forums for socializing but your not allowed to post:blink:


Also, can anyone with the moderator title decide the masses are having too much fun and shut down a thread?

Yes and no, it depends on the type of Moderator and if they are a Moderator for that particular forum. We try not too but it depends on the overall direction a thread is going in.


Do you run shifts?

Yes but not buy design. This is an International Forum


Do some of you enjoy shutting down threads a little more than others so that there are times when the rules (I thought I had read them and I missed what "color" got shut down over) are a bit more slack than others?

No and No



Like I said I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to get a feel for how things have changed.

Just trying to stay on more audio based topics. We actually let that thread go too long as it started to get ugly. Shame really.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-16-2007, 03:00 AM
COLORATION IN ROOM IMPULSE RESPONSES

http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/asf/bnam04/webprosari/papers/o23.pdf

The above is a link to a well thought out paper on the subject of Coloration. The definitions at least should keep this thread short and sweet.

For those who wish to learn more on the research side of subject I would encourage more readings as there are numerous papers in the AES Journals by E Geddes, M Schroeder and and many others.

It should be noted these papers are not pure academia but serious scientific investigations that often lead to real world applications.

Romy the Cat
05-16-2007, 07:06 AM
COLORATION IN ROOM IMPULSE RESPONSES



http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/asf/bnam04/webprosari/papers/o23.pdf

The above is a link to a well thought out paper on the subject of Coloration. The definitions at least should keep this thread short and sweet.

For those who wish to learn more on the research side of subject I would encourage more readings as there are numerous papers in the AES Journals by E Geddes, M Schroeder and and many others.

It should be noted these papers are not pure academia but serious scientific investigations that often lead to real world applications.

Actually what those “serious scientific investigations” do not lead to the “world of real applications” but to a situation when audio people instead of being benefited by the “researches” go to junk yards and pull from there 50-years old colored pieces of a loudspeaking crap and prefer to have THAT severely colored speaker in their listening rooms. The numerous AES papers explain the subject as much as analyzing bowl movement teaches the art of culinary. The tonal blindness and color importance of many contemporary audio solutions is a great evidence (if a person has no own mind to see numerous mistaken presumptions in the paper above) how incorrect the incorrect comprehension might be. It is simple to reject the language of Reality. It is simple to embrace the parallel language of surrogate actuality and then embellish up irrelevant sand castles built upon of really disassociation. It is even simpler to go to some kind primitivism-inhabited community and demonstrate to them that the primitivism might be “short and sweet”. Sure why not….

For whoever do have brain I would remind the intricate essence of the original question: “could the coloration be measured”. Everyone agree that it is very simple to measure coloration but how to interpret the result of this measurement? Here is what all AES papers along with the “surrogate wisdom” should be rolled is a very narrow tube and suck what they belong. Now it is your turn, the giggling, to think about the answer.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

yggdrasil
05-16-2007, 07:28 AM
I think "color" got closed because Romy the Cat was starting to come across as insulting to many, without backing up his claims, which was starting to elicit like responses from other members. I for one don't see any value in the continuation of that type of thread...

John
:yes: Yes John.

Thom: I'm sorry if the closure message was to short.

jim campbell
05-16-2007, 07:58 AM
im a tad concerned myself...............again the masses have been punished for the actions of one.why not suspend the cat guy and allow the thread to run its course.............its a legit topic in a speaker forum

and on another subject,does the software permit an option where a poster could opt for a reply with a built in time limit or self destruct.the post could be read while it is topical and disappear later to unclutter the tech stuff thus satisfying the diy guys

Robh3606
05-16-2007, 08:23 AM
again the masses have been punished for the actions of one.why not suspend the cat guy and allow the thread to run its course.............its a legit topic in a speaker forum

That's a good point I will delete the offending posts and reopen it.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-16-2007, 09:00 AM
You might wonder why I posted these images.

Well its about as sensible as allowing Romy to continue post..

You'd think in term of recent events there would be a degree of sensitivity to those who might well be members of the AES and be reading these forums. I dare not make reference to ""Improvements in studio monitors""

hjames
05-16-2007, 09:12 AM
Yep - it seemed like this thread would make a fast slide into the kitty litter once Romy popped into here ... if its not for the unsubstantiated claims and derogatory intent - its just plain bad writing ...

Mr. Widget
05-16-2007, 09:36 AM
Not complaining. May later but not right now. Are we being closely monitored lest we should stray off topic?I've moved your thread to the Forum Issues area as it seems to be about the management of the forum rather than any particular audio topic.


Widget

Mr. Widget
05-16-2007, 09:38 AM
........again the masses have been punished for the actions of one.why not suspend the cat guy and allow the thread to run its course.............its a legit topic in a speaker forum.
That's a good point I will delete the offending posts and reopen it.

Rob:)Thanks Rob.


Widget

boputnam
05-16-2007, 10:15 AM
if this is what you call "not existing level of most members here" ?
I say.....all :bs:

HPHi, Hanspeter...

Agreed. Remember, posters define themselves by the content and style of their posts.

This rubbish is being tolerated only to the extent of us allowing the poster to establish hisself as someone having something legitimate to offer, rather than as mere poseur contributing only their irrelevant and pious disruptions to-date.

I assure you all, we have the capacity to deal with this, but are exercising due restraint - to a point.

4313B
05-16-2007, 10:35 AM
Agreed. Remember, posters define themselves by the content and style of their posts.If true then that makes me right and some of these guys are really scary. Let's sincerely hope and pray that posting styles and content are more a product of English classes gone bad or quick and dirty posting as opposed to specific personal definitions.
This rubbish is being tolerated only to the extent of us allowing the poster to establish hisself as someone having something legitimate to offer, rather than as mere poseur contributing only their irrelevant and pious disruptions to-date.I don't agree with that tact at all. The guy has issues (he's just a cat fer cryin' out loud!) and allowing him to publish them on an international forum that JBL also reads doesn't sit well with me. Ban him, delete his posts. And don't get bogged down explaning your actions to anyone either.

Robh3606
05-16-2007, 10:39 AM
Geez

Romy was banned this morning. I sent him a PM last night which he decided to ignore. One of the Mods Banned him as a Spammer after his last post in this thread.

Rob:)

4313B
05-16-2007, 10:42 AM
Well... ok... I would have banned for bad grammar and composition but I guess banning for being a spam cat is just as good a reason.

Thanks Rob! :)

moldyoldy
05-16-2007, 03:07 PM
Geez

Romy was banned this morning. I sent him a PM last night which he decided to ignore. One of the Mods Banned him as a Spammer after his last post in this thread.

Rob:)

:applaud:
I imagine those that need to, know of his similar (usually worse) antics on other forums in days gone by. A real challenge for an aspiring psycotherapist to tackle...

scott fitlin
05-16-2007, 04:59 PM
:applaud:
I imagine those that need to, know of his similar (usually worse) antics on other forums in days gone by. A real challenge for an aspiring psycotherapist to tackle...Well, seems to me the cat got neutered today!

:blink:

kingjames
05-16-2007, 05:46 PM
That's a good point I will delete the offending posts and reopen it.

Rob:)

Robh, just when I thought all the moderators never agreed with any of the members here you do this and totally screw up my brain's.

What a class act. I think you did a good thing here re-opening of this thread and allowing the people with good intentions to complete their discussion.It was fun to read until the shit started flying and it was no longer fun.

I guess now I can relate to the OT forum and what it must have been for the other people here. I still do not agree with it's closure but now I can understand why it was done and in the end I think it was the right thing to do.Did I just say that?:banghead:

Now I see you moderator's are indeed human and you have earned my respect this day. Thanks for a good job and for your patience in dealing with some of us idiot's who think we know everything.

jim campbell
05-16-2007, 05:53 PM
Hi, Hanspeter...

I assure you all, we have the capacity to deal with this, but are exercising due restraint - to a point.and for that restraint you have my highest regard.


The guy has issues (he's just a cat fer cryin' out loud!) and allowing him to publish them on an international forum that JBL also reads doesn't sit well with me. Ban him, delete his posts. hmm....i would like to think that we are still free to be critical of jb's current or past ownership as long as decorum is observed.


Well... ok... I would have banned for bad grammar and composition but I guess banning for being a spam cat is just as good a reason. i would hope that it was his attitude and not his lack of language skills that was the problem............on occasion my grammatical skills have been less than stellar,or am i missing the humor again......as far as spammers go, the ruthless erradication of this stuff has my vote........

Thom
05-16-2007, 09:20 PM
I don't think anybody should have to put up with hostilities like that. But if everybody but him is saying you can measure color and he's saying you can't the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't have any scientific papers or hostile words for those who would disagree but we don't even know what some of it looks like. If you believe I can get Identical signal signals from a tube and a solid state amp and they don't sound the same then you agree with me and if you are one of those who believe in magic speaker wires (I don't wish to discuss it) then you really agree) That's too obvious, I must have gotten the wrong message from reading that thread. I didn't read all of it it broke down so badly.

4313B
05-16-2007, 09:37 PM
as long as decorum is observed.Yep.
i would hope that it was his attitude and not his lack of language skills that was the problem............on occasion my grammatical skills have been less than stellar,or am i missing the humor again......as far as spammers go, the ruthless erradication of this stuff has my vote........Actually I didn't read any of his posts. I'd been told by another forum member that his posts were fraught with grammar errors so I was being funny.

jim campbell
05-16-2007, 09:41 PM
Yep.Actually I didn't read any of his posts. I'd been told by another forum member that his posts were fraught with grammar errors so I was being funny.
fraught is almost an understatement........at first i thought someone i knew was joking with me ala borat.......

Thom
05-16-2007, 10:00 PM
What I hate is when someone says they aren't going to waste their time posting to someone as dumb as you and then they keep on posting anyway. Actually there aren't much in the way of written rules, but it does say that you can't make personal attacks, and either he did or I was reading the wrong thread.

jim campbell
05-16-2007, 10:02 PM
aside from coloration added by every event in the recording process,as well as the playback,including the room,etc i wonder what the largest number of serious listeners value most and least in a system.the other night i had the pleasure of hearing oh susannah live in a less than accoustically perfect room,no board or expensive gear and it sounded great.yet id bet that none of her professionally produced recordings played back on the best stuff available would approach that sound quality.my list would have to include accuracy,clarity,reasonably high spl ,plenty of air between notes,the ability to reach right down to the lowest pedal tones,image, depth,a fairly broad sweet spot,wide signal to noise ratio,etc.coloration for my part is not a huge factor if a good percentage of the others is done well.i dont know whether it can or cannot be accurately be measured and im not sure that anything could realistically be done about it if it could.........

Ian Mackenzie
05-17-2007, 12:33 AM
Jim,

Good point.

But assume for a moment your recordings and your equipment are the ideal have no colorations.

Then where do these colorations creep in like the the reproduction.

I could understand it if you had a Leak vintage valve amp set and an old tape deck.

The only other factor ( aside from snake oil) is the original recording environment, your loudspeakers and your own listening room.

From the series of papers I have read recently it is becoming apparent to me that many older halls or establishments had/have better acoustics than contemporary counterparts simple because they often have straight flat wall surfaces compared to the more delicate and ornate lines of the older interiors.

Basically audiences prefer to hear stereophonic sounds at concerts than monotonic sounds. This has a lot to do with lateral reflections. There is a a lot more detail than that but this was an interesting finding.

Unfortunately the same situation applies to the modern contemporary listening room or home threatre

As science advances our understanding evolves as to what triggers these colurations. We then learn in various spheres how best to deal with them in terms of modelling, measurement and optimisation of counter measures.

As a result of this kind if research are some interesting developments that have occured in terms of acoustic tools that can be applied to the home situation. Harman have also done a lot in this area to help the customer b est understand how to set up the home entertainment equipment.

Of course if you live in a cave and relish snake oil "hype" you will be a sucker for quick expensive fixes.

As a side note I saw an image this morning of a pair of Everest 6600's with no less than eight Quadratic Diffusers on the front wall.

jim campbell
05-17-2007, 07:47 AM
i think my point although poorly articulated was that even though the live set was from a recording engineer's standpoint,all wrong,the artist managed to pull off a great sounding show in an accoustic nightmare of a room.the total cost of gear in there wouldnt buy a decent receiver.but had a great engineer been on hand to record with all his best gear,and played it back on the best gear it still would pale in comparison to the live set.and im quite sure that the gear used by the artist and the room contributed a color of its own but at that stage of the game that is just considered her "sound".i guess its really a matter of defining ones goals in reproducing recorded music,and making the best decisions one can.recorded music can sound incredible too but is is a very different animal.therefore is the coloration in a system as important as other factors?

hjames
05-17-2007, 08:04 AM
Dare I say it ...

One of the greatest parts of the sound is the brain connected.
So often the listener's brain can make all the difference in a pleasurable event or a miserable event. Its frame of mind - are you engaged with the experience?

The brain can kind of pot down some of the dissonances and anomolies of a lesser space if the artist's enthusiasm and presence are great enough.

Its all a matter of degree of course, a really bad space can kill all but the most legendary performances. And a great hall can never be enough for a bad performer ...

And like Jim says - a wonderful presence can override a mediocre sound system ...




aside from coloration added by every event in the recording process,as well as the playback,including the room,etc i wonder what the largest number of serious listeners value most and least in a system.the other night i had the pleasure of hearing oh susannah live in a less than accoustically perfect room,no board or expensive gear and it sounded great.yet id bet that none of her professionally produced recordings played back on the best stuff available would approach that sound quality.my list would have to include accuracy,clarity,reasonably high spl ,plenty of air between notes,the ability to reach right down to the lowest pedal tones,image, depth,a fairly broad sweet spot,wide signal to noise ratio,etc.coloration for my part is not a huge factor if a good percentage of the others is done well.i dont know whether it can or cannot be accurately be measured and im not sure that anything could realistically be done about it if it could.........

Thom
05-17-2007, 01:16 PM
I guess the reason that I always liked D type JBL's was that for a lot of the music I listened to I had to a great degree replicated the original sound system. They may have even put back some of the color the engineer had taken out or depending on your point of view taken out some of the color the engineer had added. I think a couple of things that we pick up on without even knowing it are dynamic range and wow and flutter, and almost for sure some digital equivalent.

Ian Mackenzie
05-17-2007, 03:16 PM
There is nothing quite like the ambience of a live event.

When the discrepancies are significant I think the grey matter goes on auto -pilot and fills in the blanks. When the discrepancies are small is where the problems start.

Jim, would you mind punctuating and structuring your sentences more clearly. Otherwise its quite a chore to follow your posts.:)