Hartsfield questions

[rs237]

yesterday I fell over these amazing horns and could not resist her to buy. I would build myself a few Hartsfield Cabs now. In addition I have the following questions:
1.) its a differend between H5039 and 2309
2.) orginal the bass driver 150-C4 is very difficult to get. I have to use thought a K145 or a E145. Is that meaningful?

make me happy about each answer.

best regards
juergen

ps Apology for my bad English, is from on-line Translater. I hope one understands me.

[grumpy]

you lucky dog :) ... those appear to be in nice shape.

My understanding is that the horn codes are only different because one
was sold for home, the other professional (the same).

opinion: I would use E145 but some folks just have to have alnico.

-grumpy

[rs237]

grumpy, thanks for the answer. Here in Germany everything is which JBL labeled very expensively. There one must already have luck. I will thus look for E145.
regards

juergen

[Bruno GINARD]

i use E 145...

[Hoerninger]

Juergen,

do you want a copy as close as possible?
Some simulations with HORNRSP (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=152708&postcount=6)
and a modern speaker can be helpful.
__________
Peter

[rs237]

@ bruno,

thanks. is your Hartsfield DIY?

@ Peter,

"do you want a copy as close as possible?"
Yes . Nevertheless I want to compute with AJ-horn and hornresp.

thanks

juergen

[Bruno GINARD]

Totally DIY !

You can see here , but only in FRench !

http://membres.lycos.fr/hartsfield/

[rs237]

hello Bruno,

thanks for the link. Very good work.

regards
juergen

[AJSons]

Juergen
I sent you a p.m.

AJ

[RKLee]

rs237: Nice buy. Everything with the JBL name is also very expensive in the US. In 1975 JBL 2inch/51mm dia throat 2441/375 drivers cost $300US, probably more in Europe.

Off-topic:
You just bought the 2390 horn and 2397 1 inch/25mm to 2inch/50mm adaptor? Did you buy the 2441/375/376 driver?

[rs237]

Off-topic:
You just bought the 2390 horn and 2397 1 inch/25mm to 2inch/50mm adaptor? Did you buy the 2441/375/376 driver?

Hello RKLee,

i have four 2441 Drivers

regards

juergen

[JohnK]

The pro lens is black, the Hartsfield lens is gold. The 150-4C is an expensive collectors item, as is an original Hartsfield. Any other woofer is just a speaker, without the legend, history & appeal of the original. Why bother? It won't really be Hartsfield, & there are better ways to use other woofers.

The Hartsfield isn't a very good sounding speaker by today's standards, weak bass & highs, coloration, jagged frequency response & major phase/path length problems. Originals are museum pieces, artwork. It makes no sense to me to reproduce them or to use different loudspeakers in them. The originals are nice simply because they are originals, something to look at. Having a reproduction is like have a poster of a painting rather than the painting, except that this reproduction will cost a lot of money & weigh 250 lbs.


You would probably be better off investing your time & money on modern equipment rather than reproducing a old design that does not sound very good.

[Fangio]

It makes no sense to me to reproduce them or to use different loudspeakers in them.

I'll jump in here and would like to defend that project.

- Reproducing that JBL competitor to Klipschorns is quite a challenge, even for gifted woodworkers. Therein one might find satisfaction alone.

- I was told by reliable sources that 2/3 of all existing Hartsfields in the US could be clones. Good and bad ones of course, and that was done since the 70s already. How come? :p

[rs237]

Hello John,

yes yes and yes, you are right certainly. I will anodise the Lenses again gold and will use as Woofer the E145, then I add a pair 2405. If I luck have find I still a pair 150-C4.
Perhaps I am also only crazy :D.

regards
juergen

ask my bad English to excuse:(

[rs237]

I'll jump in here and would like to defend that project.

- Reproducing that JBL competitor to Klipschorns is quite a challenge, even for gifted woodworkers. Therein one might find satisfaction alone.

- I was told by reliable sources that 2/3 of all existing Hartsfields in the US could be clones. Good and bad ones of course, and that was done since the 70s already. How come? :p

Fangio,

thanks for your positive words. I think it become an in any case good Speaker for my tube amplifier.

regards
juergen

[JohnK]

All bets & logic are off when it comes to what people do for a hobby. If a hard woodworking project is what you are looking for then I guess a pair of Hartsfields is a good choice.
All the clones I have ever seen are based on the JBL construction drawings from the late 50's that document the later "simplified" "coffin back" design. So, it's actually a clone of an inferior simplified clone, not that the original "top loader" design sounded any better.

I doubt that very many original Hartsfields were ever made, so if 2/3's are fakes it wouldn't surprise me, though I doubt anybody really knows for sure since the original production records are long gone & nobody knows how many fakes have been made.

[rs237]

Hallo John,

very interesting which you write. Also I build after the plans of the late 50's. I saw the earlier version in the patent specifications. Does someone have the plans from this version? How did it come to this simpler version?


regards

juergen

[Hoerninger]

... by today's standards, ...

It must be considered that the Hartsfield is a full horn system, which gives a sound performance that will be lacked by today's standards.

There are not many three way full horn systems in the market. And designing an own full horn system is another route.

When dealing with bass horns it is obvious that deep bass demands huge horns, the Hartsfield is not huge.
___________
Peter

[JohnK]

I have never heard of drawings for the original Hartsfield. I used to call JBL about this around 1980, but they had no records. I am certain that no plans exist. It would be impossible to take one apart to get the dimensions without completely ruining it.

I owned one original & wanted to make a pair.

I obtained a set of the "simplified" drawings in 1981 from Mr John Eargle. When I received the drawings it was the first time that I had ever seen or heard about the "simplified" design, and I was very disappointed because I knew that it wasn't the real thing. I knew that the real thing was much more intricate & elegant. I gave up on my big plans to make one.

So I ended up buying a second old original instead. It was easier 26 years ago, they were about $1300 US in those days.

I still think it's a waste of time/money to do what you are thinking about doing. Better to save your money & find an original pair if you really must own them.

I've seen two excuses for the "simplified" design offered. 1. "Smoother bass response"
2. Easier & less expensive to build.

The bass coming out of a Hartsfield is as muffled as you might imagine it would be. Only a few frequencies actually escape from that horn.

[rs237]

John,

the last Hartsfields in Europe (Italy) was sold for approximately 13.000 US$ and it was also “only” the late version. I cannot pay that.
I paid for horn/Lenses and Woofers 700$. I have 2441 and 2405. The wood will cost about 300$.
The next project becomes then the Everest DD66000:D

regards

juergen

[RKLee]

Have you seen this story from our site achieves on the Hartsfield? You can see how complicated the bass horn is.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm

[JohnK]

By the time sound waves find their way out of that box there is hardly anything left but an odd mix of boomy notes. Those bends aren't smooth or gradual, it's all sharp turns. The port on the front of the woofer is really small too, it's like a giant angular compression horn. That poor woofer is in there straining to get the notes out with no place to go.

I don't know what they were thinking, other than "Paul's selling
'em so he must be on to something".

[Hoerninger]

Those bends aren't smooth or gradual, it's all sharp turns.
It is better to use reflecting areas than using bends like a sausage.
As long as the dimension is small compared to the wavelength form does not matter.
Best would be straight of course.

... , it's like a giant angular compression horn. This makes sense for a bass driver.

I don't know what they were thinking, other than "Paul's selling
'em so he must be on to something".You may be right.
__________
Peter

[RKLee]

Do a Goggle on "JBL Hartsfield," there is many entries.

You can buy the actual plans on CD on eBay
http://stores.ebay.com/speaker-parts-and-plans

Here is a short pictorial on the horn construction:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://membres.lycos.fr/hartsfield/indexexplorer.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJBL%2BHartsfield%26start%3D10%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DN

[rs237]

Do a Goggle on "JBL Hartsfield," there is many entries.

You can buy the actual plans on CD on eBay
http://stores.ebay.com/speaker-parts-and-plans

Here is a short pictorial on the horn construction:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://membres.lycos.fr/hartsfield/indexexplorer.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJBL%2BHartsfield%26start%3D10%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DN


Hello RKLee,

thanks for the links. I found good plans here in the forum. The last link shows the side of LHF Member Bruno GINARD. Unfortunately everything only plans of the newer Hartsfield. From the old I saw so far only the patent specification and this picture. These information is not enough unfortunately to the reproduction.

regards juergen

[Oldmics]

Since we are discussing these goodies,I thought I would bring up this old post of mine.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3901


Oldmics

[Zilch]

I've certainly seen more convoluted and angular paths in contemporary bass horn designs.

An active crossover with delay could dial Hartsfield right in, very likely. :yes:

[rs237]

Since we are discussing these goodies,I thought I would bring up this old post of mine.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3901


Oldmics


Hello Oldmics,
I did not know this picture yet. Do you have more information?

regards
juergen

[rs237]

An active crossover with delay could dial Hartsfield right in, very likely. :yes:

hello Zilch,

thanks for your comment. I took this into account.

regards

juergen